Worked for car manufacturers. CGL should be no different.

If you mean a recall, they don't work for car manufacturers, at least not in any positive sense. It's a very costly way of ensuring they don't get sued for someone dying due to a known flaw in their product, and it's only ever employed after all cheaper legal alternatives have been considered. It's almost purely a prophylactic measure.

No one's going to sue CGL over trauma caused by reading a poorly written book (and win), so it becomes much less likely that anyone on the corporate end is going to suggest that they hurt sales of an existing product still more by any sort of rewriting, at least this soon into the sales run.

Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Thank you. I've been fooled twice now.

I've been bit over computer games (hiss, Spore, hiss) so I'm significantly more cautious than I used to be. I'm even skeptical over Portal 2 and Natural Selection 2 (although I've paid for that already; I wanted beta access). With rare exception I don't buy anything unless its been out for at least 6 months.

Yeah, I think it's just time I stop posting on DS to save my health.

Then why do you post that to tell everyone?

Blade is making some progress - excellent. It's not a guarantee. I wouldn't even give it 50/50 odds of really addressing the issue. But it's a huge step.

We got two people who committed to sending letters (sent those yet??) - Good! Worst case, it ends up in the trash. Best case, someone actually listens.

We've got a bunch of people who are pausing to consider if War! is high enough quality to be worth spending their time and money on - Good! That's the strongest (although, IMO, most risky) avenue for communication.

I don't know why anyone is getting stressed out about this. This is a great thing. It's called a feedback loop. The people making the products get feedback on what went well and what didn't. That is a critical component of managing a product lifecycle! If CGL wasn't getting this information before, they really should be. If you discount the vitriol and look at the actual, hard results from this situation, it's been very positive. You can't get caught up in the fact that other people have different emotional states than you (and may be more aggressive in posting about it). Just understand that people love the product line, aren't happy with the product, but are taking active, constructive steps to address the gap. That's wonderful.

But you highlight the point. Sales pressure is the only kind of message they'll listen to. If War! flops, for whatever reason, they'll learn or the license will go to someone else.

Look, I'm not advocating wildcat strikes or anything of the sort. I'm simply pointing out that if it's a crappy product, don't spend your money on it. Wait until they have a good product to buy.

And I never disputed that (although I think the writers have enough love of the craft that, all else being equal, they'd rather improve it than leave it be). I agree completely, in fact. Buying WAR! is probably the worst way to get any sort of change made to future products.

My original post in this vein referred to the comment that people are still complaining even after we've been told changes are being made. I intended to suggest that no amount of promised change, no matter how injurious to CGL those promises would be, is going to quiet those already clearly dissatisfied; that either time or improvement will. I was also indicating that it's probably a good thing that simply being told things are changing won't get people to stop complaining, if only because the alternative would suggest that damage control was a sufficient counter to consumer dissatisfaction. It is necessary but not sufficient.

My apologies for the confusion.

No, it's sitting on my desk. <.<
Not like I'd get to the post office today anyway (lol snow*).

*I may not even make it into work. There's an accident between me and the freeway already, plus the freeway is backed up basically the whole length I need to travel.

I've sent my two registered letters (to CGL and Topps) today.

I've sent letters to both Topps and CGL, copying the letter on nezumis 348th post of this thread.
I expect them to arrive in 2-3 weeks...

...while in financial trouble the company itself is not completely going out of business but instead is scaling back their operations in an effort to restructure their debt. Along with stores under the Borders name, the parent company (Borders Group) also owns Waldenbooks and has already shut down over 100 WB stores with another 200 slated to close this year.

...don't expect them to have much in the way of new titles for a while though as part of the restructuring Borders has frozen payments to vendors prompting them (the vendors) to stop sending books to the company.

Chrysler did that back in '07. It did not end well for them.

Good to have confirmation, I only had internet rumor to go on.

I guess my point is, send letters if it makes you feel better. But don't expect results without applying financial pressure. War!, by all accounts is a crappy product. Don't spend your money on crap. Maybe a boycott of War! will get their attention.

No, but it is funny you should bring up an alien cult in relation to CGL's difficulties...


TOS.

I think the book sales issue is, for the most part, out of our hands. Hopefully that issue will settle itself. If not... I guess we're out-voted. At least we're doing what we can and waving our flags about trouble down the track.

A posting in a mesage board is much more reliable than a internet rumor?

I'll send my two letters, too.

Assuming that you agree witht that sentiment, which some people do not...
Just Sayin'... :wobble

How about a group of Dumpshockers get the folks from CGL backed into a corner during a Con and explain in very calm and mature tones exactly how they screwed up in War!?

And, when that doesn't work, stop being calm and mature.

I'll bring The Chairleg of Truth!

Book sales is entirely in our hands. There's a question of how much profit they'll lose on this run, but if War! flops, future runs will be hurt and slashed deeply. This is what a company understands.

I still think that you are being overly optimistic in this opinion Cain... As others have pointed out, By the time that the book hits the streets, CGL has already made their money on the product. I do not see a minor blip in the sales (which is all that you could POSSIBLY represent, and even then, not likely) will bother them in the slightest. It is not like there have not been such blips in the past 20 years of Shadowrun, I am sure, and it is not like there won't be others in the future.

If the book flops they won't make a reprint. They spent the money to publish it and they assume they will get a return as the book is sold to distributers/resellers. The pdf already sold. The physical copy has not. The other possibility is they will stop printing books and merely release pdfs then the quality doesn't have to be there to get a better return.

Like I said, there are 12,000 Dumpshockers alone. There's also a considerable number of Shadowrun fans on other web forums that link to here. Let's stick with just Dumpshcokers, and imagine the effect if they all boycotted War! I don't care how big your print run is, that would make more than a "minor blip".

Let's be a bit more reasonable and assume that only 10% of Dumpshockers know and care about War! and the CGL fiasco, enough to boycott. That's still a net loss of 1,200 books to CGL. Given the fact that the rpg hobby is a niche market at best, that's still going to be a hit to the bottom line.

How many of those 12,000 accounts:

a) are active accounts?
b) still play shadowrun?
c) were planning on buying War!?

Let's simply stop using the word boycotting. 99% of people are basing their purchase decision on a book's merits and flaws not on some principle.

They already have my cash for the pdf. Unfortunately, this maybe the last purchase I make until there is a hardcover in print where I can physically examine it. I already passed some of the previous books as they did not hold my interest. There are plenty of other systems where I am interested. I don't need shadowrun going the way white wolf went by throwing out poorly edited books of dubious, redundant, or poor value. I stopped buying their books a few years ago for that reason (well except when they were 50% off in the bargain bin and even then I am selective).

As if every user who's active here would have bought War!. Cain, your logic and your math are off on this, plain and simple.

That's why I gave a more reasonable number of 10%. That's still a hit to the bottom line.

Hitting CGL in their finances is the only way to send a message. War!, by all accounts, is a crappy product. Boycotting it will send a message that Shadowrun fans demand quality books.

You know, I think I'm going to buy the book just because you're not. I also have questioned your logic: hitting them in the finances is only going to serve to do one of two things: 1) They'll keep producing quick shoddy books to try and make the money up or 2) They'll fold. You win, no more CGL. No more publisher for the book.

So you are going to buy lousy books to try to keep them in business?

You will be lucky if even 1% of Dumpshockers follow your lead... I, for one, will not be among them... Good luck in your endeavors in the future.

I won't, but I had a lot less issues with War! than most people. Then again I am not a shadowrun fanboy, but rather someone who enjoys the system.

Indeed...

To be honest, if it means keeping the actual line afloat, yes, especially if there's no other publisher around to guarantee that SR continues.

I'm all about direct contact with the company, letting them know where stuff is going amiss, which is why I supported the fan letter and e-mailing the higher-ups rather than trying to punish the company which will only lead to backfire, IE it going under and the game as a whole folding.

I've also already said I'm waiting to make my OWN opinion on War, as opposed to just blindly listening to people who are saying its crappy. If that means i have to buck the trend then so be it.

EDIT: Call me a "fanboy" if you will, I don't care. If the line TRULY is on its last legs then fine. But until then I'd rather keep it going.

I won't buy any source book without seeing it first, so I'll wait to see it print. From what I've read here I suspect I won't be purchasing it , but I'm reserving judgement until I see it. If I don't like it, I won't buy it in attempt to prop up the company by purchasing it anyway though. I don't think that is doing the game any favors, it just encourages them to continue down the same path.

I'm not trying to say keep the company going. I only care about the game line. But then again I'm not a cynic that thinks that tearing everything down is healthy either, like seems to be the dominant thought here in DS lately.

...a) Yes
b) yes
c) no, as I have remained with 3rd ed (and yes, I did give 4th ed a good try to the point of purchasing the core rules, several of the sourcebook PDFs and even GMing a campaign - 'nuff said about that).



However, this does not mean I am unconcerned about what happens with the game I have enjoyed for over two decades.

The game line has survived company changes before. I think a more fatal blow is blindly accepting crappy products.

I agree with this statement. I think it hurts even more as SR4, Augmentation, street magic, arsenal and unwired are your core rule book and supplements. This means the less desirable products need to be superior if you want the sales. I don't hate War!, but even if a finely polished state it would be very low on a list of things for a New GM or player to buy.

Well, I can say this much, they lost a customer in me until the quality improves.

And what if there IS no future publisher? What any prospective publisher is afraid to touch Shadowrun with a fifteen foot pole because they're afraid that if they make a slight blunder or screw up one book that the fandom is going to turn cynical and negative? You're accusing me of "blindly accepting crappy products", well that's your opinion. I'm done defending my position here in DS and especially to you.

Then we go fan-made and underground! You can't stop the signal, and you certainly can't stop a bunch of overly imaginative nerds!

As a friend of mine put it, "What? You think a bunch of 'Blonds' makes Facebook work? Hell no, we do! They just provide content."

And we... We would be the ones providing content!

...

OK, that's a sad thing when I think about it and my own hack work, but still, at least we'd be more likely to listen to our own quality control, eh?

No publisher worth their salt is afraid of the fandom.

Someone will publish Shadowrun, have no fear. As long as Topps is willing to license it someone will want to make books. Especially since we're looking down the barrel of 5th edition. There are a lot of publishers out there, some just as small as CGL, some pretty big.

Now if Hardy and the boys take a stab at doing 5th edition, that would be a blow like the system has never had. SR2 was a cleaned up version of SR1. SR3 was more or less a continuation of SR2. SR4 was a much needed refresh and realignment. SR5 needs to be like SR4A: eye catching and well produced with attention paid to details*. That's not how the current publisher rolls.

So boycott or selective buy, do whatever you feel is best for the game. However, make no mistake that if SR5 is produced to the same standards that brought us War! this game is done. Just don't be afraid that the game is going away because no one but CGL will produce it.


* A crappy matrix system is pretty much a standard feature at this point, though the current one is less crappy than in the past.

And that's also your opinion, we haven't had a book past War to see if this is the state of the game as it stands or if this is just an anomaly. I think that's one of the biggest problems I have with this whole argument, that it's all focusing on a single book. Anything before that, people are drumming up the excuse that "oh, they just built on stuff that others did", but how the hell does one book equal a trend? The whole cynical faction here on DS (I was going to say community, but I would hope that this isn't the entire fan community on DS or I might as well just give up playing) is trying to burn Hardy in effigy over one book.

True enough, we could be over-reacting to external events that caused War! to be terrible. Like the writer's strike that caused TV to put out even worse garbage than usual.

Hell, some movies, you could tell exactly where they were shooting when the writer's strike hit.

Have I mentioned Jason Hardy once in my arguments? Now, Loren L. Coleman, he's a person I'd love to see cough up $750,000 worth of Shadowrun revenue.

There has been a trend towards mistreating Shadowrun. Embezzling money from the Shadowrun line (not Battletech, note), not paying freelancers, mishandling paperwork, firing or releasing almost all the experienced writers, poor editing, overloading the line developer (I assume), and now War! as the final culmination. There's a lot to be mad at, and only one way to express this anger.

Riots in the streets and the liberal use of explosives?

'Course, that might just be the Irish in me coming out to play.

I was speaking of active users, which are more likely 1,200 people than 12,000. Still I don't think that every one of this 1,200 planned to buy War! anyway.

I approve.


How many shoddy books do we need to wait out until we'Re allowed to complain, by your logic?


Publishers aren't crybabies, pubvlishers want to make money. If something sells bad, usually because it's of bad quality, then it won't be made. If the fandom isn't sunday school in the midwest kind of nice, they could care less. That said, there are a number of companies whoi'd probably be willing to give international SR a shot. My hope would be the Pegasus guys, because they delivered some damn fine work on the national releases, but that's just me. Rumor had it they were preparing a bit back in the days when it wasn't clear if Topps would just sink CGL, so maybe they could pick up, if there's anything left to pick up when CGL's done with the line.