Huh... I send Registered Mail for almost half of that... Coming out of Denver... Interesting...

Careful with that opinion Ty, you might get lynched.

There are over 12,000 Dumpshock members alone. Given the limited publishing runs of most gaming books, if even half of the Dumpshock population boycotted War!, that would mean a serious dent in sales. Personally, I don't think we'll need that many; 500, given the small print runs, is probably enough.

Not buying and boycotting are very different things. I don't buy a book because I don't like the subject matter, quality or focus. Boycotting means even if you like the book you aren't buying it on principle. I think very few of us actually boycott products.

Hell, if you really insist on buying the book to make up your mind instead of listening to reviews, just wait for the print edition, make sure you save your receipt, and if you end up not liking the book, return it.




-k

I know that I don't... And I even think that War! has potential...

Big difference between having potential and being available to purchase, hence the thread.

I agree that War! had potential, but CGL shouldn't be rewarded for putting a book out in that state. It's unprofessional and it isn't fair to their customers.

It has Potential (Not Had), and it is available to purchase, what more is really necessary? I do not purchase a book based upon other peoples sense of whether it is a good buy or not. I make my own decisions in that regard. I will get an amount of enjoyment out of it at least equal to the amount of money I put into it. That is all that I care about. Could it be better edited, formatted, etc.? Of course it could. But I really do not care about that. I made my position clear, because it seems that there are some people here that appear to want to force their opinion on others, and I happen to disagree with that opinion...

EDIT: SO, obviously, CGL has yet to cross that line of acceptability with me... No worries though...

Same here. I liked Vice, 6WA, and Corporate Guide. From what I read in this and other threads, I will probally like War! too. Just waiting for the print version to come out since I very seldom buy pdfs (Eclipse Phase being the exception).

Honestly it has enough for me compared to running wild. The real problem Shadowrun is going to have is encouraging me to buy successive books as I have the core books to play. Poor editing and where I feel the rules/powers are just thrown together won't help. I am much more a tinker and builder so give me the components and then let me loose to cobble the opponents. I would much rather see a book on tactics, building defenses and maps of buildings. This would prove more useful to me as a GM.

That said a lot of the problem I had with war (I ignored the bogata section) was the lack of detail and too much crunch. 64P will destroy just about anything for a cruise missile and the same with a Thor. Just simply give me blast radii and some advice for handwavium for the effect. Not everything has to be rules to give some really good advice for immersing the players in a warzone and the lethality of modern combat. DV at the point where everything is obliterated is simply a waste of everyone's time.

But how many of those are Doc Funk?

~J

How many are great dragons or immortal elves?
(Hint: there are some big names down in the early members)

I'm more worried about any of them being Bubba The Love Troll...

The point is, if you think it's going to be a crappy product, don't buy it. CGL is relying on the fact that we'll buy steaming turds if they have the words "Shadowrun" imprinted on it. You don't have to take my word for it, you can read any of the many reviews across the internet. War!, according to sources I find reliable, is a crappy product, and I won't be spending my money on it. I was going to buy Emergence, but Knasser's review convinced me otherwise. Just don't buy crappy books, and the message will be sent, loud and clear.

You have a lot of faith in people with big, comfy offices.

IMO, sending the letter doesn't hurt anything, and even the most pessimistic here seem to agree that there's a chance, no matter how small, that it might help. If the question is $10 vs. $.40, send it $.40. My only issue is, don't let the most beautiful RPG ever crafted go down the pooper through apathy and inaction. At least if you send the letter you can say 'well... I did everything I reasonably could'.

Eh, I don't see a problem with doing BOTH, sending the letters AND not buying the bad books (or buying and returning the books if you want to do the "I want to see for myself" thing.)

It's not a good idea to ASSUME that poor sales will be interpreted as resulting from bad quality product. Companies can be as blind to their own faults as individuals can be. They might think that "It's just the economy" or "Blah blah retailers not doing their jobs", rather than blaming themselves.

Sometimes folks need to be TOLD what's wrong.





-k

Where are these many reviews across the internet? The only reviews I found were done by some form of a Trollman.

Indeed...

Again, That very Vocal MINORITY I mentioned earlier...

Unless I'm mistaking (and someone with the appropriate Knowledge skill can correct me if I am) the majority of CGL's book sales are made through distributors who in turn sell the books to large retailers (like Amazon and Barnes & Nobel) and your FLGS. This all takes place before any consumer has a chance to "vote with their wallet." What that means is: not buying a crappy book doesn't really send a strong message to CGL (except for maybe having a small effect on their pdf and direct sales, which they may or may not interpret as you intend).

What it does is hurt the retailers like your FLGS that is probably already struggling and can't afford to have books collecting dust on their shelves. Sure it might catch up with CGL when they try to sell their next book and no one's buying, but the whole point of this letter campaign is to change course before any more books are "ruined" (which is a judgement call... not the point of my post).

The idea behind the letter is to let CGL/Topps know that if the sales starts to drop that's because of the drop in quality.
I'm not saying the sale will drop, maybe the majority will enjoy War! but I know I won't buy the print version of the latest books (though in the case of the French books, it'll take a while before they are published) and might even skip on the PDF if the quality doesn't go up, and I want CGL and Topps to know why. That's as much as I can do.

It's true that there's a very vocal minority but I think there are also criticism outside of this minority. In the French community there has been bad reviews from people who didn't have any bad opinions of CGL/Jason Hardy that I know of and who enjoyed most SR4/SR4A books. I know I'm not a fan of Frank Trollman (to say the least) and even though I respect Ancient History and the work he has done on Shadowrun I'm not a fanboy either. I was one of those who wanted to give Jason Hardy and the new team a chance. I wanted them to produce good books. And I was disappointed.

War! isn't exactly a bad RPG book. It just isn't good enough compared to what we're used to with Shadowrun. There are spelling/grammar errors (more than usual). The organization is confusing. There are contradictions and useless repetitions. It lacks crucial informations and expands on useless ones. It contradicts canon both on the setting and the rules on several occasions. And it's a shame because there are also good ideas everywhere in the book and some quality pieces.
If it were a homemade book available for free on the internet, I'd say "It has good ideas, I could use some of them in my games. The author doesn't always stick to canon and the organization could use some more work, but there are interesting things in there."
If it were a book for a lesser quality line, I'd say "Even for [name of the line] it's pretty unprofessional. And they can't even keep the consistence between the books! Too bad, there are some good ideas."
But for a Shadowrun book, it's mostly a bad book.

Note that those 3 books you listed were mostly finished before Adam/Jennifer/David left CGL so all that Hardy had to do was rewrite some of Bobbie's sections and then re-do the layout. War! was the first book that was almost entirely a work of new CGL.

For the most part the writers aren't the ones being criticized for what got published (work makes free and dubious crunch being the exception). A major gripe, and the reason I won't buy it, is because it lacked direction and mission. It was billed as a book about war in SR with a spotlight on the war between Aztlan and Amazonia. It's marketing made it sound similar to a combination of Fields of Fire and Blood in the Boardroom/Emergence. Instead we got Bogota. Does it have some good stuff in it -- yes by all accounts (including Frank Trollman's). Is it worth me spending money on it -- no. Does it signal a new and detrimental direction for a game I love -- IMO yes.

That was kind of what I was getting at. Boycotts (whether you call it that or not) are effective in a direct sales market, but CGL is to some extent isolated from that mechanism of feedback. Thats why I think the letter is a good idea.

I've heard through the internet grapevine that Borders may be going out of business. So, that's one channel CGL can't use anymore.

And poor sales might not hurt War!, but it'll sent a loud message to future orders. Suddenly, the distributors won't want to touch CGL products, leading to a Palladium mess with books collecting dust in the warehouse. CGL is also driven by the sales figures, so a sudden drop (via boycott, or crappy product) will be noticed by the people in the corner offices. Even back in the day, mass fan letters are too easily ignored. Hard numbers are more difficult to ignore.

man I hope borders isnt' going out of business. I have a borders ereader and a $100 gift card

But again, what's your goal? To get them to continue producing, but keep to the level of quality we've enjoyed before? Or to drive the line out of business?

Oh, like the "Shadowrun" video game for the PC/X-Box 360!

Look how well that one went.

About time someone else asks that. A boycott without an explanation is just going to make Topps think that the game line doesn't have interest any more and they'll kill it. Maybe someone else will pick it up, but there's no guarantee of that. At least with the letter writing, proven someone bothers reading it, they'd understand. And as it is, it's starting to sound like there's not just unanimous "War blows!" opinions here.

My goal is twofold. One is to get them to stop using shady business practices. The second is to stop shoddy product. Boycotts serve to call attention to both. Letter writing campaigns serve to fill wastebaskets.

Well, Good Luck with that then...

Shoddy products? Shady business practices? Hell, I thought that was the goal of corporations in this day and age!

Well, you know, it could be a hell of a lot worse. Just look at Cyberpunk 3.0. At least Shadowrun hasn't resorted to using Barbie dolls for art..

Have you looked at the SR4 cover recently?

Edit: …wait, it just clicked. The characters all look like they're miniatures!

~J

Since neither of your goals seem to be 'get high-quality shadowrun products', I guess we're at cross-purposes then, and clearly your advice does not apply.

wait how is "stop making shoddy product" any different than 'get high-quality shadowrun products' other than on a basic semantic level.. Although I guess it means he'll settle for normal quality shadowrun.

What's wrong with doing both?

I mean, you're coming down on the letter writing like it's going to actually hurt something. At worst it's a waste of time.




-k

What would you suggest then? Tying someone to a chair and using The Chair Leg of Truth on them?

...

Actually, that might be an idea for a variety of problems.

If the Shadowrun line dies, permanently, they would no longer be making 'shoddy products'. In fact, specifically, the best way to ensure no more shoddy products are made is to prevent ANY products from being made.

To the contrary, I'd rather shoddy products be made than no products. So I guess that puts us at odds.

From what I've been told, CGL has already reacted to the rumors of fan letter(s). Someone working on the French translation, who had already told CGL about the drop of quality, has been asked by one of CGL bosses (Bills I guess) to send a list of what's wrong with the book.

If you want to help, please post the errors you've found.
It's better if you stick to undebatable mistakes (for example, only post the use of carnivorous trees by Aztlan if you've got solid arguments to back it up) keep the description short, always give the page number and organize them in categories such as :
- editing (typos, layout problems, errors in names...)
- rules errors (contradiction with existing rules, broken gear/spell...)
- continuity error (contradiction with existing background, ic/ooc contradictions...)

Thank you.

Seriously? You're not understanding that "stop making shoddy products" is meant to say "stop making shoddy products and go back to making good ones"?

Are we being reduced to petty dithering over semantics here?




-k

The only likelihood of Shadowrun not being produced is that:

A) Topps has a capitalism fail and decides that they don't want free money

B) Topps sells the rights for Shadowrun to someone who has a capitalism fail and decides that they don't want free money

C) Topps looks for a new publisher, and no one in the world wants to make new Shadowrun content

Just thought I'd mention. The publisher makes all the difference as far as quality goes. So anyway you manage to tell Topps that you aren't happy with way things are going, is a good way.

...

Well, maybe skip any of the options that sound like something you'd do in a game of Shadowrun. So no fun options, just stick to letter writing and boycotting or selective purchasing.

And seriously, if anyone has an insight on the corporate structure at Topps, or knows someone, it would be helpful. Just as a matter of making sure the letter gets to the right people and doesn't waste anyone's time.

Is there a Fred Christ working at Topps and/or CGL?

I still plan on mailing my letter with a return receipt.



I (horror of horrors) pirated a copy of War! yesterday so I could take a peek through it to try and find some of these errors, although I haven't had the time to sit down and read it. I had no plans on purchasing it in the first place (the first I heard about it was here saying it was terrible). But I'll try and run it through a spellchecker later today.

How about they moved away from the design theory of War! being about, you know, WAR in the 2070s, and gave us a city splat book with some new gear? From what I understand, this is the major issue.

'Course, I have no issue of the book and can't comment one way or another properly. Someone confirm/deny this, please?

That's what I've heard. I'll try and read through it better at some point in the next week.

But from my skim last night it appears to be about Bogoda. Or however you spell that South American city's name (it has a whole chapter just about it).

Wow, Blade offers *gasp* a chance that maybe actually they'll fix the book and people are still complaining. I guess that's just the state of Dumpshock lately.

Emphasized critical phrase.

"Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! We willna be fooled again!" - The Nac Mac Feegle, Wee Free Men, Terry Pratchett

A chance is not a "We'll fix it. Period."

That's exactly my point. It took *how* many years for them to fix Augmentation?

Applying a little financial force isn't going to kill Shadowrun. On the contrary, it will make it better.

And even if CGL said something to that effect, issuing an apology calling their own product shoddy and promising a rewrite (neither of which are really feasible from a corporate standpoint), I don't think many people currently angry over WAR! would, or should, quietly sit and wait for it. If anything, either they'll get tired and quit posting eventually or they'll be appeased by a visible change in the quality of the products.

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

I'm not risking my money unless I am sure I am buying a quality product.