Hence my complaint. Even so the errata for RC still does not address most of my issues with qualities differing in cost within 3 paragraphs of each other. Fame, Gear Head and I am sure there are a couple of others. I have other issues with RC such as metavariant costs, etc, but I don't expect those to be addressed. Focus on those areas where it takes the least amount of effort with the highest return. Rewriting sections is hard, but telling me if fame costs 15 or 20 points for the highest level should be easy. I mean there are plenty of other issues to address, but the glaring ones should be an easy errata.

The concern is that CGL is not doing their job. If CGL continues to produce poor-quality products, that will end the line regardless. No one buys products which are terrible (or if they do, they're probably not the sort of people you'd want to be gaming with). So no one wants that to happen.

Whether Topps forces CGL to accept criticism and modify the process, or shifts SR to another publisher, either way you will continue to get products, most likely of a better quality. Yes, if you're really attached to SR4 you do risk losing to a new edition. But remember also that Topps was the one who chose Fan Pro, then CGL in the first place, and gave us the bulk of Shadowrun's fantastic line. Someone up there has a good head on her shoulders. I agree that the question of changing publishers is a bit of step into the dark, and I don't think it's something anyone should be actively campaigning for. But it shouldn't be a bogeyman either.

Mesh - you bother reading the entire letter twice, counting typos, but not highlighting what those typos are? How is that possibly helpful? If I didn't know you, I'd think you were actively trying to sabotage it.

I don't believe the kind of effort this letter represents is helpful. If you want a better product, work towards that not towards tearing a company down and hoping whatever comes after is better. I've put my money where my mouth is and begun proofing for Missions. I'm trying to get into the regular product line, too.

Mesh

If it helps I really don't care what happens to the other lines. CGL can keep doing Battletech for all I care, it's not like Battletech and Shadowrun are married. They aren't even connected in any way shape or form, save an April fools joke I never read because I don't give a lick about Battletech.

This is all about Shadowrun and the lack of quality to that line. CGL isn't jumping at fixing the problem so something needs to be done.

Proofing needs to happen BEFORE something is handed in to Hardy though because that guy apparently has a history of ignoring either proofing or rules errata, neither publishing them online nor working them into the product. If you proofread in the main product, be aware your work will go entirely ignored. In that case, I hope you at least get paid.

I'll end my participation in this thread by quoting myself.

Mesh

Yeah, I never saw it as an issue either... I am constantly amazed at all of those who DO find it an issue... Simply amazing...

Actually WizKids chose FanPro. I believe the decision to move to CGL was under Topps control, but I'm not positive on that timeline.

...egads, you go away for a while only to return home to find the house on fire.

Granted, I haven't been around much lately, but that is mostly due the discussion on these forums having moved on to 4th (4thE?) while I chose to continue with 3rd ed. Thus, I felt I had little to contribute anymore. While I have reasons for my preference, as was already mentioned elsewhere, the "this edition" vs. "that edition" bashfest has indeed grown old.

I've spent most of the day reading through this and several related threads/forums to see what a mess things have become.

In skimming the War thread (which apparently is the catalyst for this thread) I can see it has some real issues. With such a title I would have expected a more generalised expansion book (like an updated version of both the old Fields of Fire supplement and mercenary chapter from SOTA '63) which primarily focused on the battlefield environment in the 6th world rather than a specific location.

But again, there is already a thread for discussing the merits/shortcomings of this latest release.

Seems that the last couple years for CGL as a company have been quite the roller coaster ride. Misappropriation of funds, non payment of freelance writers, quality control issues, staff leaving over ethical issues, staff being sacked, and even personal religious convictions entering the scene. What has happened to the game I once loved? I once entertained thoughts of becoming a freelance contributor (primarily for location books) but after reading this and other threads on what has occurred over the last year, in some ways I feel fortunate I didn't pursue that route.

Though I am not involved with the current edition of the game, I agree, there needs to be a call for accountability on the part of CGL. It would be very sad to see the Shadowrun world fade into obscurity.

They're on to 4.5 now.

And the way to vote is with your wallet. If you think CGL is guilty of shady accounting practices, don't buy their products. If you think CGL is putting the bottom line before quality product, don't buy it.

Fan letters are satisfying, but if even 500 die-hard Shadowrun fans choose to refuse to buy the product, that will make a dent in their profit margins. And that sends a very loud and clear message.

Does it? I mean does Topps really care why 500 fewer fans buy product X as opposed to product Y? Does Catalyst really look at the numbers and really try to get at the root of the problem (e.g. a poor effort on their part production-wise) or do they just say "eh, the grumbling was from a vocal minority. We did a great job, ignore them, this kind of product just wasn't wanted and we won't make something like this again"? Does CGL even need to spin the sales reports or does Topps only care about the licencing checks?

We've heard CGL will take these complaints to heart and make sure we won't get another product chockful of typos, Auschwitz dungeon crawls, and no maps...but then we also get indications that our complaints only get heard if we say "pretty please".

...4.5, hmmmm, reminds me of a previous version of a certain game that should not be mentioned.

-----

Currently dealing with somewhat similar issues on two fronts.

First with a 3D CG company that keeps releasing new feature updates and add-ons while the core of their flagship application is in serious need of debugging.

Second with our local transit commission that has been continually cutting bus service while saying they can't afford it, yet at the same time can justify spending 1.6$ billion in federal and local tax revenue to build a seven mile long light rail line few people want.

It all comes down to basic fundamentals. Make an excellent product, offer excellent service, don't alienate your constituency/customer base, and the bottom line will take care of itself.

SR4A is a good product. There's some complaints about revisions, and honestly, those have been hashed out in other threads. But 4A was released as more of a celebration of twenty years of Shadowrun, and to give fans a damn pretty, well written, well researched book.

It was just *after* that book that all of this shit hit...

4a had very minor changes. I would rate it more along the lines of 4.1 rather than a 4.5. The purchase of the book was not even necessary due to the errata clarifying any changes. It was the long delays to print for SR4a and several errors that began to bother people such as Runner's Companion. Running wild was a little better, but oddly enough did not even include stats for shapeshifters.

It's SR4.5, because although the changes aren't major, they are enough to force you to rewrite characters from scratch. I also use the term because it's more descriptive to non-Shadowrun players: they get the analogy much more quickly. And I'll agree that SR4.5 is damn shiny; but the quality of writing actually went down in some areas (The Matrix) and the index was overdue. No brownie points for doing your job, only for doing a great job.

Ok, this is the exact kind of bullshit "this edition sucks", "no it doesn't" thing that Kyoto is talking about. 'Course, I'm not surprised, but like Kyoto, I don't even bother posting here anymore because of it. Hell, I don't even trust the argument over War, I'm waiting till it comes out, will buy it, and then make my own decision based on my own tastes rather that what other people wish to complain about.

That is an exaggeration. It only occurs if you abused the system or you decide to ignore all your previous advances and go with the new cost of attributes by backdating to the original creation. In most cases they are easily rectified especially in the case of adepts.

Several books of the new books have their issues and do need some work by the GM for mechanics.

Which is part of why the complaints come out, I fear. If your GM has to re-write mechanics in order to make them playable, why is he bothering to buy the books at all?

D'ya see what I did Cain? I didn't make a judgment call on it. I was just trying to explain the situation to a guy that wasn't here when it came out. In fact, I'll even do the nice thing and provide some links for context, so he can make the decision on his own.

Here you go kyoto.

Catalyst Games Celebrates Twenty Years of Shadowrun!
Shadowrun 4a - Like it? Hate it?
Poll - Shadowrun 4A changes
Catalogue of SR4a changes

Summary: there were changes to BP costs, karma rules, Object Resistance, and some rules to muck around with gear. Also, they never revised karmagen to make up for the changes to the new BP costs - but that's because Ancient History got le boot.

I know you have your thing Cain, and it's a good thing - I've even complimented and stuck up for you you over it! - but all I was trying to do was provide some information to a dude that just checked back in. Not to start ye olde edition / revision wars. Not helping here.

To the other yokels - chill out, mans. You complain about the signal to noise ratio and then go ahead and cause some yourselves.

To Dumpshock in general - I hate your search engine. At least make it Google indexed, sheesh.

IMO, that's more likely to kill the line than the letter is. The letter says "hey, you are going to lose sales, and this is why'. It's a flag, it's immediate, and it explains itself, but it does not in itself pose any threat to the licensing or publishing of SR.

Poor sales is more obscure, easier to rebrand as something else. It also creeps up on you, as the first one people may buy figure it's a fluke, then the second one they get suspicious and so on. This results in a gradual shift which you may not be able to so easily identify a cause. Finally, if the publishing continues long enough at this quality, SR will get a reputation for shoddy quality. That means even if/when the issue is repaired, people still will be leery of buying. If people aren't willing to buy because of how bad it was last year, if the publisher fails to pull in as much as they were expecting, or if they figure it's best to make a lot of noise without increasing quality, THAT is how you kill a line. The end result is either a product of such poor quality none of us would want to play it, or no new products at all.

It has surprising and miserable defaults, like being an OR-search by default. Still, it could be worse—with a little judicious use of + and quotation marks the only unavoidable deficiency is the inability to search for four-letter or smaller words.

As for killing the line, in a long-term sense allowing the line to fill up with garbage seems like an excellent way to accomplish that, especially for a system where a relatively consistent, highly detailed world is a major draw.

~J

Would you be kind to tell us what yout think of the book when you get it?

And what if it turns out to be a total waste of money? You'll have bought a shoddy game product and supported shady practices, all for nothing.

Now, there's a chance that War! could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. And of course, you'll want to judge for yourself. But don't spend money in this economy without checking things out first. If that means checking fan reviews and forums, then do it. Don't buy blind.

Frankly, if the only reviews are biased against the game line as a whole, I'm not doing myself a service by listening to them, am I? Lately, any review of a SR product here is like trying to get a book review of the Quran as reviewed on Fox News.

And if it's a total waste of money, then it's my money, Cain. Don't give me any "in this economy" argument. We're gamers, even in good economies we toss stuff at things we probably don't really need.

And you're right, this is wholly distracting, but I was just agreeing with Kyoto's point about how edition wars are basically conspiring to make this whole letter fall apart before it has a chance to do anything. And maybe I'm repeating myself and I'm sorry. But that doesn't change my frustrations.

So your assertion is that "recent reviews are negative" implies "reviews are biased"?

~J

Not all of them, but from reviews like Cain, who has had a clear axe to grind with the game line since 4A and before the quality supposedly took a downturn, then yes, I'd call that biased.

Then check the other forums. There's negativity towards War! on RPG.net and the official Shadowrun forums. Even die-hard fans have their limits, where is yours?

I hit mine a while ago, but that's just me. My quick scan of War! isn't good enough to change my mind. It'd take something seriously good to make me and others break the boycott. I had high hopes for War!, but a post on the SR4.5 official forums by Jason Hardy said that he was more focused on putting out product to make money for CGL than fixing slipshod existing product. That's a formula for failure, and not likely to bring back the fans.

Edit: I haven't reviewed War!. I haven't even finished reading it. I might, if I have the time, post a full review sometime in the future, but someone beat me to it.

My limit does have a point, but at least till I personally read the book then I won't know if that's reached it or not. I will say that I disagree with the general consensus that it represents a downward trend, since I liked the last couple of books that have come out, even with SWA having the two years that were screwed up. If War is bad, that means, to me at least, it's one bad book. One. But this is my opinion. That's all. Cain, this is definitely not the first time you and I have gone around about your axe.

Look, I'm not going to distract this thread any more with this, it's supposed to be about the letter and it's going way off.

I'm glad you voiced your opinions about SWA and explained your position. I know personally I have my experience during the leak, talking with Jason and then seeing the few books that have come out to gauge off of. Based on that I've made up my mind about the current CGL, and War! just cemented it.

I'd like to think I am being fair about my dislike, though I know there are some people who wouldn't believe that. I can't comment on SWA myself, because I've never seen it and only have a few specific mentions of it's contents. Corp Guide is on the shelf at my FLGS, and it looks like it's going to stay there. While it's not War! bad, I can say it didn't get my motor running like past setting books did. There are some ideas, but it was kinda "meh" for the most part. I'll admit that might also be fallout from the whole business with Loren Coleman and Jason Hardy clouding my experience as well, but if it really was fantastic I'd expect to see higher praise around the web.

I guess that's what I mean by a decline in the letter. It wasn't like walking off a cliff, it's just that things feel like they are on a slope and we're getting further and further from SR4A.

I'll be interested to hear what you have to say once you see War!.

The only other thing I'd like to add otaku, is that we can't all base our like/dislike of things based on the praise/dislike of others. That's why I said from the beginning that I'd wait till I actually held the book in my hands. I REALLY liked Corp Guide, it brought in a lot of interesting stuff to me, fleshed out Horizon (which was needed) and obviously set up that future Universal Brotherhood thing they're hinting at with them (if that book ever gets off the ground). I know that if THAT book goes the way that people are saying War! has then I'll definitely be ticked off.

If CGL is really screwing things up like FanPro did at the end of its tenure with the lousy SOTA books, then yes, we need to get this letter out and shake things up. I wasn't railing about that, you've already known that I'm just being cautious anyway with hoping this doesn't make Topps just decide to kill the whole idea.

I guess that's the biggest thing I'm worried about. Topps had a good thing going with WizKids, and WK just got a spike of popularity with the pirates games due to the movies, and they got killed off anyway due to the downturn in the economy. And with baseball cards flattening out completely, Topps largely only has its candy stuff to really make money from so I wouldn't doubt they'd be snipping stuff off to save any cash. And while yes, they're not MAKING the books, I'm sure there's still some consideration that they'll just pull it off if it's not making money at all. I look at Hasbro and I'm worried and frustrated at the sort of decisions that non-game companies that own game companies/licenses make...

Probably because there is not a single book I wouldn't tweak a few rules or at least use some of the optional rules suggested in the books. There is a difference between rewriting core rules and tweaking mechanics. Some mechanic tweaks I would do:

Street magic for Attunement animal. Change cost and scope. Attunement animal needs some major revamping and even the rules encourage some modifications or closer examination of the cost. There are few others for adept powers, etc and spirits such as possession/inhabitation.
Arsenal: Emotitoys would be an either or not a dice adder
Augmentation: Bioware and cyberware have maintenance costs
SR4A: Hardened armor I would subtract from modified DV. I would reduce edge pool as you use it until it can be refreshed. The more you use it the less lucky you become. Probably get rid of the first aid skill, increase firearm and weapon groups to include exotics, etc.
Runner's Companion: Metavariant costs, infection levels, etc. I like the book, but it needs a lot of work.
Running wild: Some warforms, cost and training times for adepts
War: Working on that one. I would probably ignore a lot of the excessive damage pools as they add nothing to game play.

No product is going to appeal to everyone. There are little things that bug me, that make perfect sense to others in Shadowrun.

Personally, I'm surprised at the tone on the old internet lately. I was scared off Shadowrun a while back with the little drama, but have been really impressed with how things have shaped up. There have been long dead periods in Shadowrun's history, with nothing being published. That isn't happening now, there is stuff, good stuff in my opinion.

I can understand if you guys are frustrated, but I don't think your letter will amount to much beyond another envelope in a stack.

When was this?

~J

Right after I bought "Street Magic" when it first came out.

Boy was I disappointed. Went out to used book stores and the local hobby shoppe that used to buy used game books. Made me a popular customer for a bit.

There's certainly been one long dead period, from what I hear. I'm more interested in hearing about the cases that make it plural.

~J

Yes, this isn't the first time you've accused me of having an axe to grind, and it won't be the first time you're way off.

But to get back to the letter, the point is that hurting a company's bottom line is a louder message than any number of fan letters. Boycotting War! because it's a shoddy product is not the same thing as trying to smother CGL in its sleep. The point of this letter is to send a wake-up call, and the profit margin is where that call will be heard.

Assuming you can actually get a large enough group organized to show as anything other than a minor blip on the bottom line... Which I would highly doubt... If I remember correctly, you commented that as little as 500 people who did not purchase the product would have a significant effect on the bottom line. I call BS on that sentiment... with the 100's of thousands to Millions of gamers worldwide, 500 non-consumers would make absolutely no difference whatsoever...

And it will not affect Topps at all, as they already have their money from the licensing.

Anyways...

So, we have a pretty final version of the letter, and addresses to send it to. Anyone willing to contribute $.40 for a stamp?

I'm taking myself off that list because I got off the Shadowrun train not long after Kage and Kyoto Kid. Sorry guys, I don't think it's my game any more...

I'll do it. Just link me to the final version.

There might be that many gamers, but there aren't that many SHADOWRUN players.




-k

I'm thinking about sending it registered mail. It's a little on the expensive side ($10), but I know from working in an office environment that it's certainly taken more seriously than normal priority mail. Maybe I'll consider this an extension of voting with my wallet?

Now I just need to get out of work and hit the post office...

Great. I suggest sending it to both CGL (because they're the ones responsible for the problems) and Topps (because they can make things change).
I know some of you want to send it to Topps only, but I think it's more respectful to send it to CGL too. It'll show that we're not working against CGL but with Shadowrun.

I also suggest creating a topic where people can sign, and insert a link in the letter, to show that the letter comes from the community rather than just one guy.

I'm writing one for the French community, I hope to have it done and sent by tomorrow.

I'd suggest that anyone who actually cares print out the letter and mail it themselves.

An internet petition* really doesn't hold much weight. In fact, it holds less weight than only 20 people sending first class postage identical letters.

*Which is what a thread with "signatories" is.

I knew post services were expensive in the US, but TEN dollars? I can send a registered letter from Brasil to US for less than ten brazilian reais (which is almost six american dollars).

$10.60 to be precise.

Can't hurt to do both.

Most recent version (I inserted an additional line at the end of paragraph 1):


1/4/11


Dear Sir or Madam,


I am a long-time fan of the roleplayng game Shadowrun, but I’ve been unhappy with the quality of Shadowrun products released over the past year. I understand the current publisher, Catalyst Game Labs, has lost a number of key creative personnel and freelancers. This is disheartening and the decline in quality is clear. The Shadowrun 4th Edition Anniversary Core Rule Book is a work of art, and has won awards for it presentation and design. The supplement Seattle 2072 was similarly spectacular. Quality has since declined.

This December the War! e-book was released. It was meant to cover military operations in the setting of Shadowrun 4th Edition. When I read it, I was shocked. The book suffers from a startling number of typographical errors and inconsistencies. It is a book about specific wars, but contains no maps of the areas it describes. Layout is slipshod in parts and some art appears presented at too large a size for the DPI of the image. This has lead to a product that appears at a glance to be of poor quality. However worse can be found in reading the material.

I was unhappy to find a lack of attention to detail. Inconsistencies and factual errors have been documented on a number of communities online, including the official forums. Some of the sections are also potentially offensive and insensitive.

A section called “WORK BRINGS FREEDOM” encourages game masters to build a story where their players must attack the ghosts of concentration camp victims in order to plunder Auschwitz and collect “necromantic artifacts”; including The Fleshfinder, a scalpel said to once have belonged to Nazi doctor Eduard Wirthz. The scalpel is listed with a price to be sold and mechanics that appear to be inconsistent with the setting, suggesting a lack of thoughtful design and understanding of source material. This section is offensive to many people, and could cause undue negative attention to fall on the Shadowrun line.

I am concerned, given my examination of War! and recent publications, that the quality of Shadowrun products is in decline. I do not know that Catalyst Game Labs is producing products of the quality and integrity the Shadowrun line is renown for. As a fan and customer, I ask that something please be done to improve the quality of the work produced.

Thank you for your attention in this request, and taking the time to hear from me. I look forward to an announcement from Topps soon on the state of their property and measures being taken to protect it.




A concerned Shadowrun fan


This version is also available on Google Docs here:

http://goo.gl/tzxki



You are welcome to edit it, but be careful not to come off as overly hostile or critical.

Sending to CGL as well as Topps is a good gesture, but I don't know if that route is worth the additional $10.60. Maybe $0.40 though. This way we can test their new processes and see if they are paying more attention to their mail

Edit: The version available on Google has now been updated to the current version above.

Point being that there are no hard statistics about HOW MANY Shadowrun players there are out there... My guess is in the 10's of Thousands...

Thinking that a Very Vocal MINORITY can effectively influence the bottom line of a Publishing Company is just ludicrous in my opinion... If you don't like the book, don't buy it... I am sure that no one will really notice all that much... There are, after all, many people that are not all that upset about War!... A good few of them here on Dumpshock even.