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Casper
Well I just picked it up about an hour ago. I havn't been able to read anything out of it yet. But I will see what i can put together in a few hours after I get some other things out of the way.

How about anyone else? Find it yet?

And can we get a forum for it.

Zach
JongWK
QUOTE (Casper)
Well I just picked it up about an hour ago. I havn't been able to read anything out of it yet. But I will see what i can put together in a few hours after I get some other things out of the way.

Cool. Hope to be hearing you bitching soon. wink.gif
Bane
Expect a SOTA:2064 forum when your address bar no longer says "forums-temp.dumpshock.com"
Siege
Some long overdue spook gear - although I think the briefcase rocket was a tad much.

The adept powers range from absolutely rocking to downright scary. So help me, I'm gonna make an adept with a -2 delusion: Batman.

A couple of new flaws, including the much bandied "Character Dossier" which isn't quite as bad as a "Police Record", but still beefy. Also "Incomplete Deprogramming" for all you Alias junkies.

Which leads me to the aliaschips - finally, p-fix chips have numbers and stuff. Let the fun begin. Although the number support is a little weak, it's more than has been printed before.

And you thought mages were nervous before - "magic cameras." The line that made me cringe - "captures astral signatures."

-Siege
Tanka
QUOTE (Siege)
[...]And you thought mages were nervous before - "magic cameras." The line that made me cringe - "captures astral signatures."[...]

...

'Scuse me, but I thought it was pretty canon that magic and tech don't mix like that. Doesn't there have to be a person connected to the camera via Essence for it to even consider working?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
'Scuse me, but I thought it was pretty canon that magic and tech don't mix like that. Doesn't there have to be a person connected to the camera via Essence for it to even consider working?

Makes you wonder if they have a biological component that scribes the image or something. Using biologicals to detect magic has been typical until now, so using partial or engineered critters seems like a logical step.
Tanka
Possibly, but it seems likely that it would need to be able to make the disctinction between "person" and "object," as some objects have auras or aura-equivalents. (Mainly foci, manifested spirits, et cetera.)
Kanada Ten
I would imagine it is a layer of dual natured cells, like an optic nerve, that simply translates astral impressions into some kind of photo-chemical reaction. It may even take astral perception to see what the 'image' looks like or to 'feel' the impressions.
Edward
I can conserve of several possible ways to build a camera that could detect astral objects.

The easiest would involve some form of astral detecting physically reactive compound or organism connected to a detector. I believe there was a fluresnt moss that did this.

A traditional camera with awakened film (ether traditional film roll or hooked to electric receptors for digital image) would be of limited utility without some form of awakened lenses.

Or they could find or create an awakened critter that could have a transducer installed and be trained to transfer what it sees threw the transducer (meaning that you get what it thinks it sees not what it is actually seeing). Cut away the unnecessary portions and put it in an elegant box.

Edward
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Edward @ Oct 5 2004, 08:51 PM)
A traditional camera with awakened film (ether traditional film roll or hooked to electric receptors for digital image) would be of limited utility without some form of awakened lenses.

Wouldn't regular glass work for this purpose? From that I've seen, whatever the astral equivalent of light is seems to refract in exactly the same manner as regular light does. (Edit:) I mean, line-of-sight works in the same manner, and stuff that's transparent in visual space is transparent in astral space too. Fiber optics affect LOS, so it would seem refraction works as well.(/Edit) You just need the awakened film or CCD-like device. Oh, and Aura Reading to interpret it, of course. smile.gif
Kanada Ten
A second use for the Astral Window spell, hooray!
Jason Farlander
Umm... I dont think there is any canon indication that either fiberoptics nor binoculars have any effect on Astral perception. They both can generate physical LOS, but I do not believe it is mentioned anywhere that you can astrally percieve through a fiberoptic cable or binoculars (dont have books, cant check immediately, will do so when i get home unless someone else does first).
mfb
i went round and round about that with some other players, recently. i contended that since the astral senses section of SR3 say that you have your normal sense of sight, things like optical magnification should work just fine. they disagreed, saying that light doesn't even exist on the astral plane. i dunno.
Wireknight
Okay, so, care to give a list of the adept powers/metamagics? I'm going to pick up the book as soon as it's available here(where is "there" that you acquired it, anyhow), but I'm curious as to what's been done for(or to) adepts, as I play quite a few.
Tanka
Light is created from living things, so it does exist. (On the astral, that is.)

IIRC, anything you pay Essence for works properly with Astral Perception. (Not Projection, as you are no longer "home.")

Anything that is natural magnification works as well (so no electronic zooms for you magical snipers).
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (tanka)
Light is created from living things, so it does exist. (On the astral, that is.)

Thats not actually light at all though, "light" is just the closest approximation that can be given in language understandable to mundanes (such as all of us). It is a psychic sense that is not related to the eyes, in that blindness has no effect on it and dual-natured critters without eyes (like awakened jellyfish) can still utilize astral perception.

You don't run into a *whole* lot of problems if you rule that lenses and such affect astral perception, I just don't think it makes any sense at all to rule that it does.
Bane
Yes, I believe the book says that the astral plan is lit by the glow of auras and such, so you could argue that that light can be magnified.

I think FAB-I is the one that dies when an astral form passes through it and glows under an ultraviolet light. I don't think it's too big a stretch to extend a similar principle to film.
SilverWolf_assassin
Magic Camera's eh?
Start the damage control team off with a good ritual tracking.
Sounds like a regular Witch-Hunt.

As far as I can tell fiber optics by virtue of their lack of electronic reliance allow light refractions to create a line of sight for casting purposes (with modifiers). It is safe to say that with "magic camera's" in place that astral light (auras and such) operates in the same way as physical light.

With that line of logic in place I say, "Bring in the astral wood pyre and the fire elementals! We are having ourselves a BBQ."

Lep, illusionist extraordinaire
“Welcome to the fun house”
dead.gif
mfb
farlander, your proposal that the output generated by auras and interpreted as 'light' isn't actually light isn't supported by the books.
Jason Farlander
I dont even know how to begin to respond to that statement, mfb. That it isnt self evident to you baffles me.

However, while I do a little bit of research to back up my claim definitively, I ask that you provide a canon quote that indicates, unambiguously, that astral "light" is the same as physical light.
FlakJacket
Sod the debate, I want adept powers! Gimme! biggrin.gif
mfb
bah. i do have a page number--first sentence under the Astral Senses section of SR3, page 173, where it says that your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing (the normal sense of sight involves the manipulation and measurement of light; anything else isn't normal). and, i'd like to point out that every passage but one talks about light as if it works the same on the astral as it does in the physical (for instance, on page 82 of MitS, under Astral Visibility, it states that the light level of the physical plane has no effect on astral visibility because of the light provided by the auras of the Earth and other living beings).

however, on page 104 of SOTA:63, under the Prometheus Fiberoptic Observation Network section (which begins on pg 103) it states in no uncertain terms that astral perception cannot be used through fiberoptics. fie, i am defeated. i'll get you next time, Gadget!
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
However, on page 104 of SOTA:63, under the Prometheus Fiberoptic Observation Network section (which begins on pg 103) it states in no uncertain terms that astral perception cannot be used through fiberoptics.

Does this imply mirrors no longer reflect in Astral Space as well?
Jason Farlander
I notice that you have admitted defeat, and SOTA63 was the next book I was going to check for exactly that device - but I'll go ahead and post the quotes I accumulated from SR3 so the time it took to assemble them wasnt entirely wasted.

A slew of quotes that indicate that astral "light" is not analogous to physical light:

"Astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense." SR3 171

"blind magicians can see perfectly well on the astral." SR3 173

"physical light level does not affect visual perception on the astral." SR3 173

"Written information and symbols carry their emotional intent rather than their informational intent... you could scan a sheet of paper and get feelings of love and longing from it, but you can't read it to see that it's a love letter." SR3 173 [since when does light reflect off of emotional intent???]

"All astral forms have the ability to manifest, to make themselves visible and audible to beings in the physical world through an act of will. The astral form appears as a ghostly image to all viewers on the physical plane.... A manifestation is entirely psychic. Machines cannot percieve it in any way; cameras do not see it, microphones do not hear it, and so forth. For characters with cybereyes, the image is in their minds, so they can see the manifestation despite their cyber." [emphases mine. if the astral form is actually producing real light, why cant machines see it? why is it described as being in the viewers' minds? why are they using the terms "image," "visible" and "audible" to describe something that is neither really actual light or sound?]

But yeah... as long as I have Penny and her trusty dog Brain over here to help me out of these tricky situations, I will always triumph!
SilverWolf_assassin
I am to understand that the Magic Camera, or at least the idea of it functioning as a normal camera, is contrary to actual game mechanics. Either it works on a completely different function then I imagine it or perhaps this explains it.

Page 19 of Harlequins Back
"Yes, this does mean that a character's world view shapes how magic works for him in the Shadowrun Universe."

Those crazy scientists.

Hany, Pirate of the mega-corporate waters.
"Giving the Middle East a bad name."
Edward
Where dose it say fiberoptics affect LOS.

I was farley shore mirrors don’t and they work on the same principals as fibre optics.

Binoculars will extend LOS if thay are purely optical (I believe this is listed in MM under eyewear optimag and in SR3 street gear surveillance equipment binoculars. But I don’t have my books with me) so maybe a glass lens would work.

I can see a large range of experiments involving astral perception and prisms of various materials maybe mirrors of metal radicals or even oricalcom. Unfortunately I don’t have astral perception.

Edward
Jason Farlander
Edward, do you have SOTA63?

The prometheus system mentioned by mfb allows a mage sitting in an enclosed room and looking through a fiberoptic lead to cast spells at hapless runners. Anything that involves purely optical manipulation of light (no digitization or magic) can provide physical LOS.
mfb
also, SR3 page 181 states explicitly that optical lenses, mirrors, and fiber optics can enhance LOS. of course, it also goes on to say that cybernetic vision enhancements can as well, since they've been paid for with essence, which means that optical mag cyber is pretty much useless.
JongWK
QUOTE (Siege)
The adept powers range from absolutely rocking to downright scary.  So help me, I'm gonna make an adept with a -2 delusion: Batman.


Care to elaborate which ones rock and which ones scare you? A list of them wouldn't hurt, either. wink.gif

How did you find the Culture Shock chapter, by the way?
Nikoli
What about Kirlian Photography? Though dismissed in the real world, it could be seen as a method for aural photography in SR
Edward
Fore some reason I believed a mirror dose not enhance LOS. Apparently I was wrong.

I do not own SOTA 2063 but Kremlin KOA dose and I have looked threw it a few times. I will have to look up that item when I am back in town.

It is interesting that somebody said the Prometheus system explicitly prevents astral perception so LOS is not tied to astral perception and aura camera would not necessarily work with a simple glass lenses.

It is strange that the electrical mag cyber wear specifically states it is not good to a mage inspite of the fact that SR3 says anything payed for with essence works. As the image magnification cyber wear came out after SR3 I would take the later reference as being an exception.

Kirlian Photography could be n interesting method. I have seen the results but I don’t know how they create them.

Edward
Nikoli
The film is sanwiched between two thin plates and a low current is passed through. Kirlian, the Russion that discovered this got a nasty burn to his hand the first time because he didn't know just how little voltage was necessary.
Botch
The magic camera operation is simple.

Open the battery compartment and you will find a little imp with a paintbrush and easel. Look behind the chip slot and you'll find a tiny scanner to digitise the image.

bitrunner
The Kirlian method (one of the methods) is exactly what is being talked about in SOTA64 - just as "ghost hunters" can capture strange images, presumably ghosts or spirits, using cameras that have natural optics and old fashioned film, it can be postulated that these were early successes in photographing astral entities...

not to worry too much...it requires special cameras (such as daguerreotype with silver plates) and long exposure times...an astral mage *should* be long gone by then...
Vera53
I am glad that they are making reference to something more real such as the Kirlian camera than silly imps with paintbrushes silly.gif. In an awakened world Kirlian photography would have more value and acceptance than it does today in our boring mundane world. I am surprised that it took 50+ years of the awakening to develop useful application of such technology.

Can't wait to buy the book and read it. I hope my Local store has it in already. wink.gif

Veracusse
RangerJoe
QUOTE
not to worry too much...it requires special cameras (such as daguerreotype with silver plates) and long exposure times...an astral mage *should* be long gone by then...


Can't wait to make old-time-y astral family portraits.... "That was me an yer maw, well our astral bodies, anyways, way back in '64. To the left is Uncle Bob, who fell into a rift, and curled up at our feed is Betsy. What kind of dog was she? Use your aura-readin' skill, boy, she's a barghest!"
Nomad
Since my FLGS doesn't yet have this in, I'd like to know about the spy gadetry.....what's new and exciting to torture my players with?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (mfb)
also, SR3 page 181 states explicitly that optical lenses, mirrors, and fiber optics can enhance LOS. of course, it also goes on to say that cybernetic vision enhancements can as well, since they've been paid for with essence, which means that optical mag cyber is pretty much useless.

not exactly as a sr cybereye dont do any computeing on its own. its just a passive device that convert incomeing light into a small electric jolt into the optical nerve (this is allso why people with the blind flaw cant take cybereyes, messed up optical nerves). a digital zoom system on the other hand requires preprosessing of the image data to make it human readable (x amount of digital zoom and you normaly have a whole lot of pixels). optical zoom on the other hand just pass the available light on to the cybereye or normal optical nerve.
Nomad
Here is my take on the magic camera arguement. The "lens" is a compound structure of two basic parts. The out portion is two thin sheets of transparent plastic, with a uni-direction coating (one-way mirror on the outmost one) which encase an awakened bio-lumenescent structure - (think along the lines of FAB). The light projected from this is then absorbed by hypersensitive reciever (similar to what is used in today's satellite, with the ability to divide up the spectrum into very minute wavelength differentiation). The resulting image is a "representation" of the astral plane without being truly astral in nature. Of course, this was developed without reading the book yet.
mfb
hobgoblin, that's a sensible argument, but it's weakened by the fact that there's nothing in the description of ultrasound cybernetic enhancements that keeps a mage from using that. given the extensive discussion of how magic interacts with ultrasound vision in that description, you'd think it'd have been mentioned if spellcasting and ultrasound cybernetic vision were incompatible. given that the data provided by ultrasonic vision doesn't even start out as light, it seems silly to me that electronic mag doesn't work.
TheDude
It appears that the only thing of importance out of the whole book is the camera wink.gif.
mfb
i wouldn't say that. i want those new adept powers and metamagics.
hobgoblin
mfb, ultrasound isnt a hole. the point is that for the input to be useful for magic it have to be raw, unprosessed in any way. and ultrasound reciver that just acts on the sound in and dont try to interpet it before its feed to the visual system of the brain is just as useful as a raw image based on light. a digital zoom will most likely try to interpet what is lines and what is noise before passing the image on to the visual cortex of the brain.

ie, stronger sounds become stronger signals so in many ways ultrasound dont enable you to see shapes pr see but allow you to see brighter and darker spots of echo (and sounds weaken as they travel so therefor you can judge distance). and based on that general info you can make guesswork as to what shapes a thing have (or with high enough resolution you can in fact see the general outline of a object as a bright "aura"). basicly there must not be a chip or anything that tryes to interpet the image before its passed on to the magican.

a closed circuit camera on the other hand interpet the data into new data that the tv at the other end can use to rebuild a similar image on the screen.

they have in fact done replacement surgery based on passive chips placed inside the patients eye to replace the damaged biological "sensors" in there. and they are starting to develop lense replacements for patients with a common eye problem among older people (dont recall what its called in english). sooner or later one can replace the whole eye and even cure blindness as long as the blindness comes from damage to the eye itself and not the brain.

then its just a matter of patching this so that instead of useing visible light as the input its ultraviolet, infrared or ultrasound that is used to stimulate the nerves directly.

hmm, i wonder, could a flashbang give a ultrasound user the effect of "glare"?
mfb
dude, it converts sound into sight. there is no image, before the chips in the ultrasonic cyber do their thing. that's a whole lot of processing. you can't cast spells on things you can hear but not see--unless you have ultrasound vision cyberware.
Ecclesiastes
QUOTE (TheDude)
It appears that the only thing of importance out of the whole book is the camera wink.gif.

Seriously. Can you guys open your own thread to talk about this stupid camera and leave this thread for giving us hints and spoilers about what is in the book?
mfb
nah, this is only peripherally related to the camera. if we started a thread for the camera, we'd just derail that one instead of this one!
Zenmaxer
seconded, another thread for this please. dunnae mean to be a pain in the bum...
also I can think of PLENTY of ways to run a magical camera, and I'm sure there's a canon explanation. What you guys should remember is that what the canon says, goes.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
What you guys should remember is that what the canon says, goes.

Um, no. No no no.
Req
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
What you guys should remember is that what the canon says, goes.

...unless, for the purposes of your game, you don't want it to. Canon is all well and good, but GM >>>>> canon. Just don't come here and try to convince everyone.

Oh wait, we spend most of our time doing exactly that. Carry on then.

-Req
Zenmaxer
:: laughs :: touche, Req, and yeah I agree with you and Kanada. However for the purposes of discussing whether or not something works within the universe, based purely off of rules and fluff interpretations, if it's in the canon, it works. If you want to house rule it out of existence ::grins :: then shoot that rule till it's dead, but don't bother to point to spots in the canon that support you, because it's not relevant. Okay grinbig.gif I'll stfu now.
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