Tres Cool!

I wasn't taking issue with Cognition at all. Merely with your computation of it's cost. I still maintain that it isn't valid to include Centering, as it is still a separate Metamagic on its own, with its own not-inconsiderable advantages.

I understand what you are trying to get at though. I do acknowledge that Centering itself does require two skills, plus at least one Initiation, all in all being quite expensive. The fact that Cognition cannot be acquired until after the Adept learns Centering does indeed make it a Karma-intensive purchase, if cost calculation is extrapolated from chargen. I think my point was that there are already a lot of Adepts out there with Centering (simply because there was few other choices - good or bad). For them the bulk of the costs in your calculation have already been payed.

As I have stated a few times though, you guys did a good job, especially in regards to material that was guaranteed to raise controversy.

None taken (now ).

In my opinion, the 'back and forth' serves to familiarize people with the rules, maybe even giving them a different perspective than they would normally have had without input from the rest of the forum. For instance, I'm a little more comfortable with some (but not all) of the Social Powers than I was in upon the initially reading.

I just wanted to pop in to say great job to the SOTA64 team. Just got my copy today, and I've perused up through the end of the adept section. Having never played an adept before, I've now got literally half a dozen character ideas bouncing around my head to make use of the new powers. Any book that can get players excited about new character types and new games is a great success.

indeed. the adept section alone puts this book in my top ten SR books.

you know what i just realized makes the culture shock section so good, especially the top ten lists? the tightness of the writing, and the sparseness of the exposition. it doesn't go into overly-exhaustive detail; it just lays out the pertinent facts and forces you connect the dots yourself.

no one's answered, so i'm gonna go for my own bonus points. the Johnson for the Chico-Oroville incident was, i believe, one LTC Lloyd Ritter, aka Grey Knight, part-time shadowrunner and part-time asskicker for Ares' military assets.

here's something funny, about Ritter: his rank. in YotC (2061), he's listed as a Lieutenant Colonel. in SOTA:63, though, it calls him a Colonel. now, it's easily possible that he got a promotion between '61 and '63--except that, in the shadowtalk, someone says that he was a Major only six months ago! even if you explained away the LTC-Colonel discrepancy with the fact that LTCs are sometimes referred to, in less formal settings, as "Colonel so-and-so", you've still got the oddity of Ritter going from an LTC in '61, to a Major in '62, and back to LTC in '63. that sort of rank-hopping is possible, but it'd sure be interesting to hear the backstory, there.

Typo?

indeed. i'm forever typing "six months" when i mean to type "two years and six months"!

that's a pretty minor oops, though. i tend to follow Ritter's official career, which is why i picked up on it.

Well, then... Ask spud.

I can think of a character who was supposedly supposed to be a Major, but it isn't Ritter.

Do you mean for Karma purposes or will you end up actually knowing spells at several different maximum forces??

Then what's the point of being able to decide the spell's force when you cast it.

I'll look this up myself, as it doesn't sound right.

Still waiting on my copy to arrive in a couple of days, can't wait.

Can anybody please tell me which european magical traditions are covered in the book?

I get that Rock Steady, but it means your spell list ends up with Manabolt 4, Manabolt 5, Manabolt 7, Stunbolt 5 and Stunball 7.

How what's the point of that?? Cos right now, I see no point in having to duplicate a spell. Why not just relearn it - pays your full Karma cost but save space on paper, and in your memory cos eventually there's gotta be a limit on what you can learn - no mechanic but it makes sense there would eventually be - we are talking the (meta)human brain here.

That's okay then :o)

With regards to the magic variants, there's hermietic druidism, druidism, Wicca, witches and a few others. Christian magic is also present, with a bit of info over and above what's in MITS.

One thing though, what's a Chaos Mage?

Chaos Mage: Special type of hermetic. Basis of his belief system is the chaos theory ...

Just got my copy yesterday. Absolutely loved the Adept Section. Can't see what's wrong with it - but I am an Adept fan so we'll leave it at that.

The Culture Shock section is very good. Especially the top ten lists. Can't believe no one mentioned Novatech's troubles thought that was a good advancement of the Art Dunkwalther plot.

I am still reading it, but so far what I read I like.

It is appreciated, and most of us appreciate that you won't please us all the time, but least we're still here and playing the game :o) Course, more cyberware and bioware wouldn't go amiss :o)

Are there any game rules for Chaos Mages?

I'm reading on the Ork language now, but I'm glad the Laughing Man and Orange Queen have shown up in some of these, especially this section. And spell matrices.... whoa!

Agreed. I might not like magic on a personal level, but that doesn't stop me liking progress. There's nothing worse than a stale and static system :o)

Doesn't mean my own personal preference isn't for more cyberware and armour and guns and other 'mundane' tools of the shadow trade, but I can appreciate a good adept power just as much as the next guy.

Indeed, that was a singularly unhelpful comment Birdy, and counterproductive to even your own "side" of the debate, if you were even on a side to begin. It's comments like those that make me want to reconsider my own. I'm beginning to think my comments were just as knee-jerk and stupid as his were.

Meh, screw 'em. You can't keep everyone happy all the time -- mage players were bored by Man and Machine (and Cannon Companion), Riggers were the only ones likely to care too much about R-3, I still haven't even bothered to buy Matrix or Target: Matrix or whatever...they aren't just a series of adventures, they aren't just tailored for a specific target power level audience... they aren't just of interest to the riggers, deckers, gunbunnies, or mages. They're books about Shadowrun, not just about any one place or character.

Don't worry about the complainers. The SOTA books are the best books I've seen for SR in a long, long, time. The chapter breakdown is great, it gives a little bit of info on a lot of subjects (cops, adepts, unique magic, spy gadgets), which means there's something in there for everyone -- not even counting the chapter that really is there for everyone.

They're great books. '63 was a nice one, '64 is among my favorites, ever, for Shadowrun. The layout, artwork, you name it. It's not "THE ADEPT BOOK," by a long stretch. If anything, take solace in the fact that most people are only able to find one chapter to bitch about.

i'll second that. i've been happier with the SOTA books than any other books SR has put out, pretty much since 3rd editon got going. Birdy's entitled to an opinion, of course, but it's not like players haven't been begging for new adept stuff since 2nd edition.

I dont think there is an an rule in SOTA that says:

"YOU MUST USE ALL THIS RULES IN THIS BOOK OR YOU ARE DAMNED FOREVER!!!!!"

But there is a "rule" in the BBB that says:

"If you dont like th rules, dont use or change it."

I always fail to understand people that post the argument "I don't like this so SR developers should change it, so I feel better". If you don't like it don't use it. There's no need to go around complaining that your opinion is valid and the world should stop and pay attention to you.

Developers do a lot of work. Hours go into coming up with new ideas, testing them and balancing them with existing material. As well as making sure that you don't contradict yourself in the process. Comments that fall on the category I outlined above do nothing but piss off hard working people. In the end the book was not made just for you, it was made for EVERYONE.

In every book there's stuff I don't like and can't use, for example Matrix and Rigger content. I don't go around asking that nothing be developed for these character types. That would be unfair to the people that like playing riggers and deckers.

If you are going to voice your opinion, you can do it in a constructive and polite manner that will probably have a higher chance of being heard. "If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"

So now we have people complaining, people complaining that people are complaining, people complaining about the complainers complaining about the people complaining, and now I'm writing a post to complain about the complainers complaining about the complainers who complain about those who complain.

--K.

The problem with adepts, folks, is that when you boil the class down, it's a warrior with magic instead of cyberware. That's all. There's nothing keeping them from getting cyberware, in fact, except some piddling essence costs -- which can be easily pooh-poohed away with karma and Initiation. I've seen it myself, the fullborg with 0.056 essence -- and still has a Magic of 6. Isn't Initiation wonderful?

So, all those books for mundanes, solely for mundanes, strictly for mundanes -- you're wrong. They're for adepts too.

Which books are these, anyway? Ignore second edition, here; let's stop pretending that it's not been six years since the third edition was printed, so forget all about those books. We have Man & Machine -- which I just stated works as well for adepts as well as mundanes. We have Shadowrun Companion -- adepts can use Edges & Flaws just as well as mundanes. Then there's Cannon Companion, a book about firearms (pistol adepts and rifle adepts love this), martial arts (ditto for the martial art adepts), and more gear accessible to both mages and mundanes. SOTA63, which contains genetech, usable by both mages and mundanes. Matrix, which again is not solely for mundanes -- all a person really needs to run the Matrix is a cyberdeck and a datajack. Discounting Otaku, of course. What book am I missing? Oh yes, Magic in the Shadows, a book solely for the mages and adepts.

And then we have SOTA64, with a chapter, again, solely for the adepts. This is what you call fair? An entire book, and a chapter of a second book, meant for only part of the characters in the game?

This is why I want to see cyberware that screws with magic. Maybe it fiddles with creative thought, and magic being as much an art as a science, can't deal with it. It could have come from the research into cybermancy -- oh, and don't get me started there. A whole subsect of mundanes that require magical support? Don't tell me that's solely for the mundanes. Cyberware that's partially cybermantic in certain respects, that forces a magician to sacrifice a large part of his magic but leaves mundanes alone, that would be something nice to have.

Until we actually have a book that says 'Sorry magicians, This Is Not For You', leave the whole issue alone. And don't think your game is typical of the rest of us playing Shadowrun. You might be in a game where karma and nuyen is hard to come by. But I've seen games where karma and nuyen come in bucketloads, almost. Games where adepts don't have problems finding the magic groups, where they don't have problems scraping together the nuyen for a smartlink, and where the fullborg adept not only exists, but thrives on his all-Betaware cyberlimbs and Increase Reflexes 3 power.

***EDIT*** Okay, I forgot about Rigger 3 Revised, which contains a lot of content for riggers, including adepts who went and got a Vehicle Control Rig level 1 -- which, given the cost, can be had at Beta-grade for less than a hundred K, and with a good cyberdoc, can be had for only 1 point of essence loss. I've seen it. Don't tell me this book is for mundanes only, either.

Your argument and points are duly noted. Not being a fan of pervasive magic in SR I found myself in the odd position of co-authoring the two magic-related chapters of this particular book. Why? Several reasons stand out.

Firstly while I'm not a fan of adding more powerful abilities, I am all for providing more options, variety and depth of background for people to play with. New options do not necessarily equal more power or even tip the power balance in the game.

Second, I felt playable magic for both adepts and magicians needed some fresh ideas and variety.A lot of people complained that MitS was too crunchy and had little actual fluff. But most importantly a lot of the people complaining seem to forget that besides MitS all the other core rule books are tech-related (M&M, CC, Rigger3, Matrix). In fact, the only new magic introduced during the SR3 run post-MitS have been the odds and ends at the back of Target: Awakened Lands, Target: Wastelands and SOTA63 (something like 5 new metamagics, 6 new spells and 4 new adept powers total). Which IMHO is pretty insignificant compared to the hardware and bits and pieces added in those and other books - the Merc chapter of SOTA63 introduces no less than 38 pieces of tech gear and vehicles; the Genetech chapter introduces 15+ items and processes; and SSG introduces 10 pieces of sundry everyday equipment).

As Dude has mentioned above, Adepts in particular were the least developed character type since they appeared back in SR1 (to put this in perspective SOTA64 has almost as many pages dedicated to Adepts as all previous books, regardless of edition, combined). There was a huge demand for Adept stuff as testified by the numerous netbook projects, the discussions on fan forums in at least 3 different languages AND the number of mails FanPro got asking for more adept stuff.

As to EuroMagic, I really suggest you check the chapter out again. Does it increase the presence of magic? Does it make it more powerful? Or does it simply provide more specialization options to mages and shamans by delving deeper into the stuff that was barely touched upon in MitS. It adds a couple of minor rules that actually make some previously mentioned traditions truly unique, all the while keeping them balanced rather than just making them a bigger, better, more upgrade.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for adding more variety and depth to the tech available to players as much as I was to adept abilities. I fully believe SOTA65 is likely to include updates to Matrix, Bio and Cyber. It's just a question of time. But right now I thoroughly disagree that magic is getting too attention.

And just for reference, despite bad turn out at RatCon SR sales in Germany have been above average with every release this year.

More options is always good, and I've seen that the adept powers in SOTA64 aren't anything special. The only thing I object to is this misconception that mundanes have their own books, and magicians have theirs. As I've pointed out, everything a mundane has access to, a magician can use as well.

But it doesn't work out the same way, in reverse.

THAT is where the inequity lies in the system. If we had more options for the mundanes that were denied to the magicians, then we'd start seeing a balance come back to the game. Personally, I don't see why the rule about magic interfering with decking abilities was removed, but as I've said before, it's Shadowrun, rules make reality and rules change.