I feel obliged to complain about this post.

Some things:

1) I answered on the tech stuff in another post. Basic: I look for counter-magic tech, not new cyberware/bioware. There I have most. Maybe some disguise cyber.

2) The Euro-Magic chapter wasn't my main point of critizism. That was adepts (see other post) or better, the way the did adepts. Had they kept them pure "Shaolins on magic" I would (maybe) have been less "ugly"

3) You know than RatCon is often referred to as the "Fanpro Con" in germany, don't you? People who go there like the Fanpro games (SR, DSA, CBT:RPG) since most games played there are from Fanpro. Those who dislike them, don't appear (Its around 100km/1h from my home, getting players to go there is next to impossible due to this) If they have a bad turn out, this is something FanPro should look into. (And given the weather, it wasn't a "too beautiful weather" event either)

4) I came off a bit more aggressive than necessary <dear reader, please terminate yourself "He" has admitted an error>. See later posts and blame my job/customer

<Edit>

And could we have a MrJLBB forum please so I can say something nice I actually liked everything I saw in that book so far.

And some more nice stuff on Sota:

+ Liked the art
+ Liked quite a few ideas and chapters

<Edit>


Birdy

Ok. In a power game you can do as you like. What you describe is out the realm of my experience, as it is pure power gaming.

Man and Machine has nothing to do with Adepts, except the handful that take 0.1-1.0 essence loss or explore more within the realm after earning a substantial amount of karma. This book is not for Adepts.

Cannon Companion is overwhelmingly used by mundanes. Sure, Adepts might take the martial arts stuff, and buy a gun or two, but this book was written with mundanes in mind.

I'm still looking for the sarcastic smiley - I know this can't be a serious statement.

How much of the material in there is really approrpiate for Adepts? Answer, very little. It is predominantly a mage book.

Absolutely .

Well, there are many books that are 95% mundane with trickle down usage for mages.

What you ask for is silly IMO. Do you want a rule implemented that mages can't use guns or armor? It just doesn't make sense.

Thanks, nice page but it does not help much for conventions. SR on german conventions means "Players bring their characters, life with it or don't play/master". You can spend hours (and live with sullen groups) trying to enforce a "only my characters" rule on players. Best you can hope for is 1/2 players are from your regular group, 1/2 pickups. That balances out somewhat.

German conventions are a lot more "free wheeling" than say GenCon. You pay once for entry (around 4-6 Euro) and than you can join whatever group has empty slots. There is no prior registration for players and limited pre-registration for GM (say 1/3-2/3 of the groups). GM state "I want to master X and accept n players, non-smoker" and are assigned a table/room. Even pre-planned events are typically posted when the GM asks for it. Than players enter the group. And we don't use fixed timeslots either (two exceptions exist, one makes it optional). It's anarchy poor (and should keep that way)

Birdy

The problem with this is that if anyone actually suggests on this board that they don't like something, and therefore won't use it (like with me and just about ALL the plot stuff since Dunklezahn got elected), people jump up and down and label them "anti-Shadowrun" (I know this sounds ridiculous, but read some of the threads from about 5 months ago; this actually happened to me).

I agree that SR HAS been screwing mundanes, but this is not a new problem. Almost all of the books my friends and I have are from the 1st half of 2nd edition or earlier, and the problems are there too. But I think a lot of the problem comes from full magicians. Like you said, there needs to be more tech counters for tricky things like mind probe and astral perception and things like that, but up until SOTA 2064 (which I haven't read, just going off what I've read on here), adepts were largely just street sams that could initiate, and even that advantage was lessened when cybermancy came out and street sams too could cram themselves with more than 6 essence of special abilities.

The way I see it, there are two real problems with mages. First, mundanes have no way of countering them. Non-deckers can't really counter deckers, either, but that doesn't matter, because they can take themselves off a target list for them. You can't do that with mages. If you're not a decker or a mage, you can keep all your info off the matrix and be immune to a decker, but the mage will always be able to read your mind. You can counter the decker without being a decker, you can counter the street sam without being a street sam, but you need a mage if you want to be safe from other mages. In the group I play in, I have a decker, and there are a couple magicians. The GM often doesn't include a matrix run as part of the run, but the magicians can ALWAYS pull stuff on the GM that he wasn't expecting. No matter what, the magicians always have a large part to play in the game, whereas the decker rarely does, and doesn't even always have a minor role. A lot of SR players I know got into it because they like cyberpunk novels, and marginalizing the decker while making the magicians the stars of the game is NOT cyberpunk. A good GM can do a little bit to remedy this by making the deckers more important, but there's nothing they can really do to diminish the crucial-ness of magicians.

The second problem is that they have access to all the mundane toys. There's nothing stopping a mage from being a really effective decker, or even a rigger or street sam. The mage can pick up minimal amounts of cyberware later in life and be good at these things. The decker can't pick up a top hat and be a magician. To say that only one book has been devoted to magicians while all the others have been devoted to mundanes is false. In reality, one book has been devoted to magicians while all the others have been as usable by magicians as anyone else. It just doesn't seem like it sometimes because everybody else HAS to focus on those other books. To remedy this problem, I wouldn't suggest restricting magicians' ability to use cyberware and weapons, but I WOULD follow the house rule that every SR group I've ever known has used and say that mundanes can make themselves magicians by spending a certain amount of karma to make up for the A priority (I think most people I know say something like 40 karma, but I've never seen any character actually do it, so I don't know; it's just reassuring to know that mundanes DO have a chance at not being the inferior beings SR makes them).

So all in all, I agree with Birdy on his point that magic is way too important in SR, often at the expense of critical cyberpunk elements like deckers. But also, I can definitely see a need to turn adepts into something other than street sams that can get through metal detectors. But again, I haven't read SOTA 2064. I'll agree with Synner that adding flexibility to something doesn't necessarily unbalance the game, but it usually does. If new adept powers are added responsibly, it could be cool, but you need to be careful.

not to derail this thread, but that confused me - SRM is specifically designed for conventions where you bring your own character. Deacon was recommending it because we try to keep things more to "old school" Shadowrun, and as someone that helped develop the various FABs and Strain-III and Gamma Scopolamine, I'm about as "anti-magic" as they come, so I'm always looking for opportunities to use the tools at hand or develop new ones (yes, I'm working on some now) to help in the mundanes fight against mages.

and i currently have about half a dozen people running SRM events in Germany, so I know it's working...don't know if any were played at RatCon, but they are starting to be played at many of the conventions here in the States. We had five different events at Gencon this past year, and filled almost every single table...

Yup, that works. Somewhat. Even a "optimised" 50 Karma character can be "interesting" when it comes to equipment.

And you still get genius-level gamers who don't read the stuff and turn up with a character that violates most parameters and then argue.

Been there, suffered that

Birdy

Synner: What german cons did/do you frequent? Besides RatCon?

Now that is something I like! to hear. And what I would like to see. Basically:

Bring all the magic you want as long as my mundies get a counter!


We should take a vote on this. As long as I do the vote-counting

Birdy

No I did not get it wrong. I said "I don't like this so SR developers should change it, so I feel better". That meant on the context of your posts that you did not like the way magic was being handled(too much of it, and too powerful) so everyone should stop and do as you wish (give mundanes a countermeasure). It was also a broader statement not necessarily confined to you personnally (I was also a bit pissed).

Still you have stated your arguments since that first post. And I do see your point, even though I think you are overexaggerating a bit.

Now let's get back to discussing SOTA64?

This isn't a power game I'm discussing. This is a standard Shadowrun game that's been running steadily for the last five years. With an average of one game every two weeks, the characters in this game have gotten rather powerful. They've amassed the kind of experience and gear that makes them look like a power game, but that's going to happen with any game that lasts that long.

If the adepts can use the book, then it's for adepts. Once you said 'except the handful', you stated that Adepts can use it -- therefore, you have invalidated your own argument.

Again, you invalidate your own argument. Adepts can use the martial arts, the armor and modifications, the new firearms and other weapons -- this is a book used by Adepts.

It is a serious statement. It's not hard to make a mage decker, or grow one starting from scratch. Admittedly it looks like a mage decker's going to require serious cash outlays for decks -- but mages don't really need cash all that much anyway. Besides which, you do not need a top-of-the-line deck in order to play a decker -- if you do, then your GM is punishing you unnecessarily, and is in sore need of a punch in the face.

Currently, there is no downside to playing an adept. Except for piddly magic loss, which the smart player can avoid. Think about it. Magicians have magic loss, the dangers of astral space, mana warps, FAB, biofiber, magemasks, magecuffs (if Synner ever gets that approved), paracritters, and then the whole I-took-magic-at-chargen-so-I-need-to-hide-behind-the-Samurai thing. And let's not forget 'Geek the mage first'.

Samurai have to deal with helpful magic (healing) being MUCH harder to cast on them -- and if they go the bioware route, they get even MORE penalties. Cyberware Stress. Bioware Stress. The limit of reaching 5.9999 essence without needing cybermancy. Mundanes trade this for being slow as molasses compared to the sammies, or soft as a sponge. Deckers are useless outside of the Matrix, or they deal with the above problems. Riggers deal with the above problems AND optempo and SOTA costs. Plus, replacing drones COSTS.

Adepts get magic loss and...

...and...

...still searching...

Nothing! They don't have to deal with a shedim coming in and taking their body when they're doing an astral recon for the team. They don't have to worry about what happens to their magic if they enter a mana warp (which I think is an obvious fix needing to happen). They don't have to deal with the limitations of essence loss; they don't have to deal with the headaches of bioware, unless they really want to. Their growth potential is only limited by how little karma they can squeeze out of the GM. Since their upgrades don't cost nuyen, they can spend that on the stuff sammies and mundanes miss out on -- decent living conditions, nice clothes, permanent lifestyles, contact upkeep and false identities.

If an adept takes a hit, all he has to do is go over to his buddy the mage and ask for a healing spell. Essence of 6, TN of 4, the adept will be on his feet way before the samurai ever could. And with the additional combat pool dice an adept can get, it's less likely that the adept will get hurt in the first place.

Now, I'll admit that in order to upgrade, the adept first has to find a magic group and initiate. Well, not really, the GM has to allow the initiation to take place. But we're going to assume that the GM allows this, because if he doesn't, then why is he letting the magician initiate, and the mundane get better 'ware?

I've seen the powers in SOTA 2064. Like Synner said, they add options to playing an adept, which is good for the game. But what I'd like to see are more options to playing a mundane, and I'd like it if those options were unavailable to magicians. I'm probably not going to see this, since one of the main themes of this game is the blending of magic and technology, but it sure would be nice if there were cases where the magician is utterly helpless, but the mundane can handle the situation no problem.

But until the mundane can do everything the adept can do, your argument is invalid. Because the adept can do everything the mundane can do -- and sometimes, they can do it better. They can use all the other books than mundanes can use, while the mundanes are denied access to the one book adepts and magicians can use. Or are they?

One of the best countermeasures I ever saw in any game was a player of mine who allied himself with a free spirit. They had done this spirit a favor, and the player started doing whatever he could do gain that spirit's trust. This meant organizing whole shadowruns and paying the other runners out of his own pocket, in some cases. Donating huge amounts of his own karma so the spirit could gain in Force and spirit energy. Finally, after having gained the spirit's trust, he asked if the spirit would help him in his work.

As a GM, I saw no reason to disallow this. It gave the character a controllable ally like a mage's ally spirit. It gave him Spell Defense. It helped him deal with magical threats. And the fact that he'd organized and run several shadowruns (doing my own work for me) and given the spirit over 40 of his own karma, impressed me that the player was serious about this. I allowed it to happen -- and suddenly a mundane had magical countermeasures.

Food for thought, folks. In any case, we've strayed from the topic enough. SOTA2064 isn't going to ruin your campaign. It does change the rules a bit -- but I expect that SOTA2065 will do the same. Maybe we'll see magical countermeasures like anti-magical properties of natural orichalcum being used in cyberware, or the mythical magical item that a mundane can use (which Dunkelzahn did bequeath money to, in his will). In any case, I'm sure it's a book we'll all find useful in our games.

No offense intended: that's my definition of a power game!

The one problem with these is getting them on the fraggin' mage in the first place. And usually by the time you've gotten the mage to the point that you can put cuffs or a magemask on him, he's so far unconscious it'll be a day or so until he wakes up.

That's what the mundanes need -- more active countermeasures to the magical problem, like the allied free spirit mentioned above.

The best countermeasure to a mage is another mage -- but like Tal said, that's just more magic. But there are some things the mundanes can do to stop the mages.

1) Keep your eyes and ears open. Don't head into a situation guns blazing -- take stock of your opponents. Is one acting differently than the rest? Odds are, he's the mage -- and hence, your first target.

2) Chemical weapons are the mundane's ally. Drop a cloud of neurostun-VIII on a party and see what happens. Even if the mage resists it, he's still got +2 to all his TN's.

3) When they have bullet barrier, don't use bullets. A crossbow bolt can be just as deadly -- and bonus, it's silent. And further bonus, it can be poisoned.

4) Don't just use FAB. Use flour. Use the sprinkler system. Use anything you can put into the air to detect those pesky invisible mages.

5) Drones. Nuff said.

Okay, that's all I can think of for now, it's late and I need sleep. Us old fogies need our beauty sleep, so we can get up early and be cranky some more.

This is purely my opinion, it's left vague in the book on purpose. But yes, they do sacrifice horses, it is considered part of the Blot. As for human sacrifice that was rare among the Old Norse and is non-existent among modern followers, so probably no.

Third university? don't know actually, probably bad wording or a typo. Flying permit?

It's outlawed along with the rest I suppose. As for burning them, I don't think so. Though it would be a crazy plot to have wave of magiphobia hit Westphalia and other parts of Europe, with witch burnings and other traditional European evils.

This is not incompatible, LS will still be doing random traffic stops on principle (never know what you might catch), plus it will be coordinating and interfacing with the Gridlink system all the way (meaning they can have the Gridlink turn off your car's access to the system while still tracking you for instance). And many areas still don't possess Gridlink anyway.

That is a misunderstanding that has cropped up and been dispelled before. What it says is that this is the case in certain districts (namely the bottom end of the security charts, z-zones and the Barrens). Depending on the sprawl (and your game) this might mean a significant portion of the city or a small one. SOTA64 describes examples of typical (read average) law-enforcement situations not middle of the Barrens precincts and procedures. The situations you described are balanced out by relatively secure downtown business areas, ultra secure enclaves, and middle of the road 'burbs (ie. all the places rated C-upwards)

Actually I thought the post by one of the shadowtalkers about Viking Asartu sacrificing animals (and possibly humans) was pretty illuminating...

As I mentioned previously, our intention was not to power up magic or even make it more common but add to the diversity and mystery of it by showing how a lot of the game concepts introduced previously actually translate to elements of the game world.

Actually that was indeed a slip. There were originally meant to be two German universities and Prague, but last-minute crossreferencing with the writers of B:ADL reduced the number. We simply missed the three in editing.

You'll have to check in B:ADL for that.

Again this is a question for the German crew. Remember that there was no 3rd Edition reference to the Westephalian theurges beyond SOE and I had only a limited space to introduce the nuances between the various varieties of Christian magic. The focus was on the specificities of each school of theurgy. Anyway, the possible problems arrising between Wiccans and the Westephalian clergy (not necessarily it's theurges) is addressed in the book in at least one of the Game Info plothooks - like many of the references in this chapter it also builds on material previously mentioned in both SoE and DotSW.