Read the section on manifesting on SR3 pg 173. It is rather explicit on that point.

to create a background count. either get a whole lot of people together for a concert, some religious sermony or similar. basicly you have to get peoples emotions going.

to create a mana warp you would in fact have to remove any and all living material within the area, includeing bacteria and similar atleast. then maybe deply some nasty variant of FAB-3 or something to start feeding on the ambient mana.

the only documented man-made mana warp is after the cermak blast (from what mits tells). and that included a tactical nuke and insect spirits

countering magic can allready be done when it comes to blocking them out. FAB version 1 and 2, biofiber wallpanels, awakend ivy, hell even a bioengineerd snail like creature that emits a sound when it comes into contact with a astral pressence (the mage may not even notice he passed thru one).

and let me quote the text:

"the astral form appears as a ghostly image to all viewers on the physical plane".

ok so later on the text says that its not visible to normal technological devices but there is nothing saying that a mage can single out specific persons to apper before.

and as this camera is astraly sensitive, picking up a manifesting mage should be the least if its tricks.

oops, i belive i sound a bit snappy. sorry about that. wrong person to "snap" at...

While I'm trying hard not to make this personal I will say the following. All the powers and metamagics introduced in this piece were cooperatively developed and playtested by more than a dozen individuals the overwhelming majority of which have nothing to do with the Adept netbook project (or EuroSBers like me for that matter). Furthermore a number of powers and abilities were included which were contributions from established freelancers who have significant credits under their belts regardless of what you may think of the newbies. In fact you have no idea how much stayed on the drawing board

The areas which undoubtedly recieved the greatest boost were artistic, mental and social powers since the former two were seriously lacking references in previous books and the latter was being properly introduced with the Wa of the Speaker.

A while back I promised there would be stuff in SOTA64 that gave mundanes ways of fragging up mages. The "Kirilian camera" is one such. It's a pity "magecuffs" didn't make it. More will surely follow.

.
Maybe because that is the only section of the Game Information directly pertaining to the Ways? Maybe because that's the place where it was most relevant? Maybe because of what I mentioned in my previous post regarding development decisions? Maybe that is why it is the first optional rule (and only one of two).

In fact, I'm wondering how you could possibly have misunderstood the material. It says the GM may as an optional rule choose to apply a power cost modifier if a character strays (or lacks) from his particular way (as in: that "Gamemasters are encouraged to let players detail their character’s personal approach to his particular way and actively incorporate this into the roleplaying aspect of the game, especially in terms of plot and character development.") What this simply means is that if in the GMs eyes a character deviates from the Way the player himself originally "detailed" for the character then he qualifies. How does that possibly reflect on the editing?

Ah, well that's not as bad then, although I'm not sure why B/R skills are included if Technical ones aren't. *shrug*

Ah well.

You know, hobgoblin, I already quoted that the relevant section back on page 1 of this thread. Anyway, there is an important part that you did not mention here.

"A manifestation is entirely psychic. Machines cannot percieve it in any way; cameras do not see it, microphones do not hear it, and so forth. For characters with cybereyes, the image is in their minds, so they can see the manifestation despite their cyber."

Note the part about the image being in the minds of the percievers. I dont think Cochise ever meant to imply that a manifesting mage could pick and choose which minds to manifest to, but the fact remains that manifestation is a purely psychic mental image. It's not really there in any physical sense. And, though I lack access to SOTA64 at the moment (it should be arriving next week), I share his initial incredulity at the ability of an astral camera to *easily* pick up such a thing. I may comment further when I read the specifics of how it is supposed to work.

'sok. Really, you dont need to be snappy at anyone... but I still take the apology for what it is.

I don't have an issue with adepts starting out with bonded foci either ... I just have an issue with foci that are supposed to be extremely rare (by the wording of the text) that fit into the avail rating of a normal starting character ...

Read my lips: I didn't say that either shouldn't expand into other areas: I'm against magic conquering new areas, taking it with ease and over-taking all mundanes in just one blink of an eye ...
That's why I didn't say anything against the possibilities of adepts when it comes to vehicles with the new powers, but simultaniously have serious grudge against what has been introduced in the field of social adepts ...

See that's just that kind of generalization that get's me pissed off. I clearly stated what I do find negative with the current tendencies, but so far most every post against my POV came up with generalizations that I didn't make of any sorts.
Hell, it even looks like is forbidden now to have a slightly negative attitude towards anything that is brought fourth by the makers ...

Again something that I didn't saying anything the like ... But I'd like to see a development that actually fits with what has been done before ... And to me it seems that some things that have been introduced during the last supplements (including SOTA '64) leave a sore taste ...
Another example (not against SOTA '64): The overall political development of SR went into balkanization of larger nations and federations. Fine ... Now SoE has reintroduced the EU ... With a "surprinsingly" close relation to real world developments. The currency ECU all of a sudden made the vey same name change to Euro ... just as in our real world ...
I'm not necessarily asking for re-invention of the wheel. But I'm asking for less unimaginative copying of real world events.

You are forgetting something. Shadowrun is a game. The rules do not make reality, the GM does. We are all free to ignore any rules we do not like. We are also free (and justified) to be annoyed when new rules needlessly contradict existing ones.

Furthermore, the whole *point* of this board is to discuss shadowrun issues, and this is one of those issues. If you don't like the fact that some people have problems with a new rule and wish to voice their concerns, well then you're in the wrong place. Deal with it.

Try harder Synner ...
Again I can only suggest that you read what I wrote instead of trying to find an insult in what I wrote. I wrote about my feelings. Currently I do have the feeling that as we germans say: Zu viele Köche verderben den Brei ... Too many people working on the same thing and thus "killing" the result ...
It's an impression, no more no less. That impression is strengthened by how you in particular "changed" in your attitude on this board (from my POV) ever since SoE went from fan project to official project with you becoming a freelancer ...
I'm not blaming you or anyone in particular for that overall impression I have. It's an observation ... you may take it as an indication of potential distaste in a larger group of players or you may not. Again: That's your perogative ...

Does this actually matter when it comes to my POV which is based on my perceptions?
And before trying to tell me that I should shut up, because I don't have any insight on matters: I was long in enough in closer touch with the german side of development. Part of the reasons why I quit doing what I did for Fanpro Germany was what I saw and heard through the various channels ...
Agreed, I never was an official freelancers (at least none that made it into publications or got any money from it) but I was there ...

You saw the part where I said that I like the overall idea? I'm just not too happy with the product itself ...

And this rule doesn't even remotely look contradictory to you when looking at the way how the Ways are presented from the ingame perspective?

Matter of fact: You're the one missunderstanding something here. I didn't miss the word "optional" in any way, so ..

... what you suggest to be my misunderstanding actually is none ...
Let it put me this way: "Ways" appear to be something depending on the mindset of an adept => Even if an adept (or his player) makes certain changes to what he / she initially described as "my Way", it's (at least to me) unlogical to have rule that a GM might use to "punish" the character with, once he does (even adepts and their mindsets are subject to change, wouldn't you agree?) ... even if it's optional. And things like that leave me with an impression of bad editing, because things do not fit with how they are presented at other places within the rules or background informations ...
Again that's just a personal personal observation and I presented it after I was asked to provide my reason why I have some ill feelings abou SOTA '64 ...

Define the mechanic - Knowledge Skill "Confidence". Adds comp bonus dice to social interactions that might be influenced by the subject's extremely confident and poised body language.

Or the ever popular...

Now, is that a cyberware gizmo or a chipped knowledge skill: "Seduction Techniques"?

-Siege

Not "they." Me.

It was a little embarrassing, once I actually started writing for the game, to have a character with my own name in there. More than once I was accused of writing myself into the game (I didn't, Erik Jameson did, and I've yet to get him back for that... ), and it was starting to get to me.

So I asked Rob if I could do something about it, and he let me. It opens up some plot areas that I'm wanting to explore in some fiction for the website, and I hope it'll open up some things for groups who play games set in the CAS.

You say that like it's a bad thing....

I like most of the new adept powers; it's helping me with some NPC concepts that I didn't quite have a canon way to work in. Hell, for a while the "author" of the Artist's Way segment was going to be one of my NPCs, but I wasn't altogether happy with how things worked out, so Synner obligingly changed some things around for me.

I've already got a pretty cool scene for an adept with Wall Running in mind for a story, so it's working out well for me.

If you are in any way referring to me or my posts here ( in either post quoted), then you might want to check your facts before posting wild accusations. I have never...not once...ever complained that Adepts were underpowered. I have gone down on record time and time again as stating that they were, in fact overpowered even before the addition of new material. Opinions were asked for (numerous times), and I am merely expressing mine.

The main reason why I wanted to join the original Adept Sourcebook team in the first place was to try and keep Adepts from dominating the game world, making all other character types less attractive to play. Unfortunately I dropped out of the project prior to the submission stage (for reasons unrelated to Shadowrun), but overall I think the end result was a lot better than it could have been. Credit should be given to the Freelancers for at least shedding light on, and expanding Adepts.

Well, I wasn't talking about you in particular. It was a more open ended statement of frustration more than anything else.

Can you give up a brief outline on these?

...or IA: Demolitions!

...or IA: Biotech!

...or, worst of all, IA: Small Unit Tactics!

What makes them mutually-exclusive? It isn't only a comparison about the various merits of each, but also the fac that Adeps can get both if they choose for very little loss.

There's nothing even to preclude this. A Grade 3 Initiate (possible in most games) could have VCR 2 and still have 6 Magic Points worth of appropriate Adept Powers. He's sure going to give pretty much any Rigger a run for his money.

I dare say you've never seen me take something personally, so I'll take that for what its worth...

I did not take any of your post as an insult. If I had I probably would not have bothered to answer at all. In fact I rarely take anything posted on these boards as an insult.

What I did try to underline was your erroneous belief that there is a significant difference between the way things are developed "now" and the way they were developed "before" in this particular respect. If anything the current system is closer to the original FASA system of multiple playtesters than it had been for a while and development goes through a lot of tweaking and balancing.

But as always everyone is entitled to an opinion (or opinions) and more power to you if yours aren't in agreement with mine or anyone elses.

Aside from my difficulty in keeping up with prior commitments I made to the Dumpshock community - such as the Seattle Intelligencer and the Idiot's Guide to the Matrix - which are as much to do with real life issues than freelancing I hadn't noticed a change in my approach to the boards. I'm still as long-winded and argumentative as I've always been.

There is the fact that I have been less liberal with my opinions because they now carry a different kind of weight (whether they should or not is not the issue) and don't post as many of my own ideas and rules interpretations as I did (you'll notice most freelancers don't). The exception has been, and will likely continue to be, when referring to stuff I personally wrote, in which case I will often explain (as much as possible) what was on my mind and why I made certain choices to avoid assumptions and erroneous deductions. However, even there you'll note that I will mention that these are my thoughts and that they do not necessarily reflect the opinion of FanPro, the developer, other freelancers, or in fact, later writers who touch upon the same material (a good example is a recent DSF thread on the Templars and magic in the RCC).

Admitted, I may be missing the obvious, so I would be indebted for a heads-up by PM (rather than on here), if you wouldn't mind.

As you may have noted I do try to debate and discuss matters rather than slam the door on people. Furthermore when I present (some might say defend) my views more often than not these days, I slap a disclaimer on them so people don't mistakenly think they're in any way official or representative of FanPro's own development stance.

Regarding your opinion, I value it as I do any opinion on this board. As a single voice which may or may not represent a wider group. It would be wrong to do anything else. If I were to simply count positive vs. negative posts on this thread as feedback, I'd probably find you are in a minority. The same happened in the SoE forum, if I had added up pro and con comments at the very least they'd probably even out. By the same measure, I don't even give particular importance to hearing that SoE has pretty much sold out in the UK and Germany within a couple of months of coming out... for all I know everyone who bought it hated it.
However, as anyone who's worked with me will know, though I argue my points to death at times (case in point), I take constructive criticism to heart and often change my writing to fit anything I view as representative or valid perspective.

Nevertheless, the first thing you learn as a freelancer is you're never ever going to please everybody. So inevitably you have to settle for pleasing the most people (or you risk losing your audience). In this particular case there had been no less than 4 different fan netbook projects expanding adepts and upwards of 40 threads on new adept powers on all incarnations of Dumpshock. There was a demand for adept powers and (judging by the contents of all those) for expanding the adept's niche in the game. I believe the writers and everyone who contributed to this chapter answered that need, still kept things balanced and managed to throw a curveball or two.

As someone said it was inevitable it was going to be controversial, so I'll settle for having satisfied a fair number of players and provided them with new options. Who knows next year there's the chance we might get to do the same to all the cyber and rigger fans out there.

Not at all, it simply shows that your inference that there is a certain relation between the new writers and the type/variety of material presented is wrong.

If you've ever really read my posts you'd know that I've never ever told anyone to shut up, I think it's bad form and I don't intend to start now.

Regarding the rest, since until very recently (post-DotSW) there was really next to no real relation between German and US development and quite often German and American canon were even at odds. I fail to see the relevance or relation with anything being discussed. You're right. I know nothing about your experience with FanPro D but then again I'm willing to bet it doesn't really reflect the way things have been handled post-DidS2. The fact is that in recent times German and American development has been far closer and coordinated (thanks to people like FanPro D developer Christian Lonsing and Lars Blumenstein) than ever before. So much so that several German authors' material feature in recent and upcoming US books, plot threads from both sides interweave and it's been my pleasure to collaborate with folks and projects on both sides of the Atlantic.

I'll take that for what its worth.

No. But I'll explain why below.

I didn't say you did. I suggested there was a misunderstanding... but the "optional" bit had nothing to do with it.

<And here I go explaining what was on my mind when writing this bit...>

This is where you've misunderstood the concept - or perhaps it simply isn't clear enough in our writing. A Way defines the follower's mindset but it goes far beyond that. In fact, the mindset/personality is only a part of the greater framework. As explained in MitS and SOTA64, Ways are personal paths (sometimes conscious, sometimes subconscious) towards expressing individual ideals of Self - and as immutable in their own way as a mage's tradition.

A particular mindset is simply one outward manifestation of this inner focus, it is a reflection of this but not the focus itself. It is what a person thinks about something not why the person thinks that way. While a person's attitude and outlook are indeed subject to change over time, it is very rare that someone is able to alter their deep-held beliefs/ideal of Self (in psychological terms this most often requires an immensely traumatic episode of some sort), and hence their Way. In real life, while one's mindset may change, the personal ideal that underlies one's outlook on life rarely does. In the Sixth World this is amplified by the need of a focus to better control magic (which in turn leads to a chicken and egg argument about whether the Way is dictated by the individual's personality, or if the individual's personality is in fact molded by the Way his aptitude expresses (which IIRC is something that comes up in the fiction).

A follower of the Way of the Artist is ultimately a Creator, someone devoted to artistic excellence and creativity as ultimate personal expression. As such it would be counterproductive to even have attempted to identify and inumerate all the possible variations of attitudes, mindsets, backgrounds and arrays of powers an Artist might manifest in this book (let alone for all the other Ways). However, should at the outset a player define (as is suggested) his character as a modern musician inspired by the Celtic Bard ideal, we decided to give Gamemasters the option to exert some control (if he so wishes) over the character's initial choice or later development of powers; especifically those that don't really fit that personal approach to the Artist's Way (as originally defined by the player himself). In the example above, given the absence of any warrior/combative aspect to the Celtic ideal of Bard, the Gamemaster might choose to impose the optional power cost increase on the aforementioned Bard if he wanted to pick something so out of place as Killing Hands (which in turn might be perfectly acceptable on a sculptor Artist character to the same GM).

Another example is the Lost. The Lost are meant to group all the adepts who, for whatever reason, don't possess a Way; those who are too mixed up, lack the drive towards inner development or simply too inconsistent to take up the focus of a specific ideal. They all still have their own mindset, opinions and goals in life, they just don't have the inner focus to direct their magic in a specific direction (which in turn manifests as development of certain aspects and powers of the character). Their magic is developed by need and desire, and often without training. As such some GMs may deem (I know I will) that the development of their powers should reflect that absence of focus and dedicated training.

As usual mileage will vary from game to game, gamemaster to gamemaster, but that's why its an optional rule.

In many games Ways are simply ignored because they don't have associated game mechanics effects. In others they went undeveloped because previous SR3 material (unexpectedly few players seem to have picked up Awakenings) really didn't cast much light on how Ways affected character's everyday lives and how they might mold their abilities. So when writing this it was decided that providing the insider's view of all various Ways would help clarify some of the practical aspects of the material in MitS.

As I explain above this can be ascribed to the way you interpreted the text or in fact to lack of clarity in writing/editing. Since I have yet to read the final printed text I'll reserve further comment but am perfectly willing to accept both alternatives.

It does represent constructive criticism and as such I'm pleased to hear it. It is a question of "personal observation" and a matter of opinion, but as long as it is well grounded and explained it is a perfectly valid one and much more useful input than a lot of random criticism that I see.

It is obvious that we disagree with a number of aspects of the game but there's nothing wrong with that. You obviously don't stuff like the NEEC, to you it means revising to fit current events/developments. To me the NEEC has very little to do with the current EU (rather it is inspired by EFTA and the original EEC) and represents what I believe would be a plausible method for future covert corporate takeover of pan-european politics and economics which builds on current and SR's dystopic trends.

There's probably stuff we do agree on. For instance, I do agree that SR history should disregard contemporary history when it obviously doesn't fit and that magic has become quite pervasive in the recent past.

However I tend to look at things from the perspective of their actual impact in the game. For instance, I firmly believe the number of people playing full-blown social adepts will be a relatively small compared to the number of people playing adepts. As many things in magic I believe it is a self-limited and balanced development (or at least as balanced as anything is in SR). It is very "compartimentalized" and requires specialization, which in effect means developing some options restricts others - in a way technology and cybertech in particular do not (if you figure in nanotech, genetech and bioware and the effect is even more evident). Combining the two to twink has always been an issue since Grimoire 1 so it is nothing new, and certainly nothing that should restrict development of viable options for all players.

I'd also submit that material like Adept powers and metamagics and the European magic traditions in SOTA64 will only add depth and variety (as well as further compartimentalization), rather than fall into the bigger, better, stronger trend that was characteristic of a lot of early 2nd Ed material and particularly the German material.

As I said before constructive criticism is always appreciated, so please feel free to pour it on.

If you really object certain trends or have issues that you'd like to bring up, I'd suggest making your voice heard and mailing Rob Boyle directly, from experience I'd say he's very open to fan input and feedback.

Quite honestly, this complaint has nothing to do with SOTA - this is the way the game was created from the start.

There is no such thing as mundie vs mage comparison on a power development scale. Mage wins always (if played intelligently that is).

As a writer for the adept chapter, my primary goal was to expand adepts out of the combat/stealth only mold. It always bothered me that mages were so dominant when compared to adepts in terms of application and utility, for only one priority higher.

So, is Cognition compatible with the Mnemonic Enhancer?

SYL

The pricing and avail seem to be "off" again ... The mechanic as such is o.k.

A missing limitation that says "can't be used in conjunction with Mnemonic Enhancer" pretty much means: Yeah, adepts can gain the benefits of both ...