"Funny" ... I remembered something like an errata for M&M?

SYL

There was an Errata for M&M yes ... but the M&M-Errata only changed the overall karma reduction Menomnic enhancer granted ... There's nothing in regards to a (then) unknown metatechnique that has the same effect ...

I know, I know. It was more like a "Hey, look, we killed the Mnemo-3-bonus for the Mundane Characters ... and look, now the Awakend can do it better (because they can combine it)"-comment.

BTW: did you receive my PM?

SYL

Note however that Cognition (like Somatic Control and Infusion) is an advanced metamagic technique, meaning you first have to pick up the basic technique of Centering and the relevant Centering skill (as well as the creative/artistic Skill, if you don't have one), all of which increases the overall karma cost significantly and makes the tweak factor for non-specialists less interesting. Also, Cognition doesn't have levels and is only available to adepts and not all Awakened types.

Well ... its an metatechnique and if I am not mistaken you receive one Powerpoint (I don´t know the english word for "Kraftpunkt") for new adept powers, so it´s not really a disadvantage to get a new metatechnique. Centering itself is not really an disadvantage either.

So: _why_ is cognition compatible with the mnemonic enhancer, especially regarding the errata which nerfed the ME because a lot of people saw the -2 and -3 bonus as too unbalanced?

Note: I am just asking. I will make my opinion once I tested the rules and possibility at least in my mind. But from what I heard it seems that the "Mage&Adeptrun" is not really inadequate.

Edit: Btw what about the other chapters in SOTA 64? How is the quality of the spy- and the police-articles?

SYL

and it take it as its based of centering you will have to do a centering test to see how good and effect it have? (i dont have the book btw)...

the spy stuff is great, with one or two minor oddities. for instance, it could be important to know what skill those cigarette-rockets use, as well as how long the delay is between lighting up and firing--not to mention the effects of rocket exhaust on smokers' lungs. also, both they and the suitcase rockets seem... over-the-top, i guess. the Budget Pool could use some minor clarifications; i'm assuming that it refreshes at the end of every 'run', but that's never explicitly stated that i can see.

police stuff is... police stuff. the info on jail culture's pretty cool. other than that, and the new toys, nothing here's a surprise if you've ever gotten your hands on the Lone Star SB. the LSSB is one of my favorites, though, so that's not exactly a bad thing.

the culture shock section has some of the most interesting tidbits hidden in the most obscure places. it will be fun, seeing where a lot of those little plot hooks go.

true.

so, feminism in SOTA:64. was that a conscious theme, or just coincidence?

mfb - It's not so much a conscious decision to pick up the theme as something that fit into a wider picture of not only this but other books. Personally I think its simply a consequence of SR delving into the multicultural, globalized aspects of the Sixth World beyond its original relatively narrow focus. Someone recently mentioned they were pleased to find an increasing number of references to Islam, I think that too reflects the same preocupation.

Nevertheless I'd note that Mutter Erde and the Sie date right back to the original Germany Sb and are not necessarily anything new to the universe.

btw- As someone working on developing his own take on adept's, I'd like to hear your opinions on the stuff in SOTA64. Drop me a line when you can.

Regarding the "hidden" stuff in the Culture Shock section, yeah, there's plenty if people take a real hard look. From some follow up to events in DidS2 to updates on Threats 2 and an possible comeback (with ominous echoes in the Spy chapter) there are loads of developments tucked away in unexpected places.

so. anybody else read the Chico-Oroville Dam account and think "holy hell, i gotta play/run that!"

and, for bonus points, who's figured out who the Johnson is? (for bonus-bonus points, state his probable rank!)

Okay, I've read the Spy, Police and Adept sections of SOTA64 and I can safely say I don't feel cheated with this book - it was actually worth spending money on, and that's saying something for the recent SR books.

Spy Section
Okay, this seems to be well thought out and reasonably written. I didn't know much of this stuff, aside from the Seraphim - and I guess the MIFD was known - but the rest was cool. It takes the agencies from SoNA and others and adds them in. Not sure I'd agree with the stuff on the Security Service, but hey - I never do when it comes to Blighty in SR (so it seems).

Couple of points of note - the Sonic rifle is tres cool. Gotta get me one of those, and it does tie in nicely with a subplot I've been working on. In my world, that little baby won't be launched until late 64, got major plans for it :o) However, the thermal null suit just seems WRONG. The text and the rules are at odds with each other, and it sucks compared to anything previously done - I can get the same thing from form fitting armour and thermal dampening - plus get it camo'd and a few other cool bits and bobs (ruthenium springs to mind).

Also, the Cellular tracker thingy - I know that's impossible so it doesn't exist in my camapign, but that's to be expected since SR has no clue on radio or cellular what-so-ever. Not's not a major biggie - you join the ranks of Tom Clancy in that regard.

Most of the other stuff was okay, and potentially useful though, so it won't be wasted - especially peel n stick armour. That's cool stuff :o)

Police Chapter
This was perhaps the poorest section I've read so far. It feels like SoE and a bunch of others - an update. However, it does have some useful information in it, like the make up of a SWAT team for the Star (but WTF is an FRT and why the split?!?!) and also Dips and GridSec. Doesn't have much on KE or the others, but I guess I'll just make them identical to the Star aside from some brands of gear.

The new gear was kinda handy, though the list was a tad sparse. And to be honest, a lot of stuff I thought should have been in this section was in the spy one. But hey, it happens.

Adepts Chapter
This was pretty good. The powers themselves are okay, and for the most part reasonably good. Gliding and the wall running powers seem particularly pointles (oh goodie, I can run for 6m over water?!?!?!) but the social ones, well it's about bloody time the Troubadour made an appearance. And the limited projection for the Magician Adept was also nice. I'm still trying to figure out whcih powers the Wolf Adept had though, but I can probably imagine some of them - but claws and stuff?!?!

The metamagics on the whole weren't too overpowering and I think went some way to making adepts a more playable choice on the whole. I thought they needed a little more balancing but I haven't played with them yet so I'll wait and see.

Truth be told, there were some powers which made me want to play an adept, and some metamagics which increased that. I'm not sure I ever will, but I can see adept NPC's appearing more and more in my campaign.

Overall, I thought this book was pretty good. The fact that the mana-senstive camera takes to long and can't be hooked up to a computer - unless you scanned in the image once it were done (say hello to 30 minute lags or whatever it is) - you're unable to hook it to any CCSS or drone. So it's really limited and kinda pointless.

I will add my own voice to those who see magic as monopolising the game. I've had requests from people to run a magic free campaign, and not just no spellcasters, they want EVERYTHING magical removed - no Trolls or dragons or anything. And to be honest, that's appealing to me LOTS since it negates a very powerful weapon which isn't balanced properly - spellcasting, and it also puts everyone on an even keel. At this point in time, I'm surprised that after 51 years of the awakening no one has come up with something which can provide 'armour' against spells. No implant which makes you less conducive to mana flow or impedes the spells' effects.

On the whole, good book. Not read the culture shock or euromagic sections as yet, but I'm getting to them.

[post retracted]

Hate to burst your bubble, but... mfb's not an idiot. He knows.

Okay, Bitrunner, I can see your point - but my point is I don't have access to the information you're updating!! This is a now constant frustration and could put me off of SR if it doesn't get addressed. Crimsondude, thank you for your explaination - guess that's something to look out for. Wouldn't have thought SWAT arrogance would have caused that.... but again I haven't the specifics. Appreciated though.

First time Post:

Just got SOTA64 in mail and had a question about adapts. The attunement metamagic technique allows attuning items, but the list is for mundane items. Can you attune a weapon foci, or is that too munchkin?

Also the Magic of the old world had a section on Norse magic. A "ganner" is a spell slinger? My family name is Ganner and I have never heard of this meaning of the name. Who wrote that section and where do I get more information?

It doesn't say you can't attune a focus, and since they have the same OR as a mundane equivalent (right?) the karma cost should be the same - e.g. 9 karma for your dikoted weapon focus.

When I read about that technique I assumed this was the first and most likely thing adepts would use it for. Weapon focus is already a ritual link to you, and you really don't want to lose it anyway cos it cost you a lot of money and karma, so you won't mind dumping even more karma into it as you would, say, a Predator that you picked up for a few hundred nuyen.

Incidentally, I also assume that attunement works just fine with a smartlink. So if you did attune a firearm you could get -3 on all TNs with that and a Smartlink - kinda eh, what's the word, better, than a Street Sam eh?

Still, at least it only works for one particular firearm, and costs you a little karma.


In any case, despite all the above comments, I still think the adepts section is fine - and I don't even play an adept!

Just got my copy in the mail and I've got to mention one thing no one seems to have touched on yet about the book. IMHO the art is exceptional throughout - and I struck lucky the stuff in Adepts and Euromagic chapters is particularly cool. A couple of rougher pieces here and there but I think this has some of the best looking illos overall in my collection. Kudos to all the artists involved.

my favorites are in the spy section. the first page, and the pic of the guy upside-down and shooting. i like the way the artist takes advantage of the black-and-white format, rather than doing simple line art that would look better colored in.

Did anyone noice that the "hellcow" incident from the top ten lists (p. 157-158)? It's the Ghenis from Earthdawn. I wonder if this is just a bit of fun or a renewal of the ED-SR meta-plot. Personally, I wouldn't mind some of that coming back, but perhaps not as strongly as before.

On the whole, I liked the book. I don't really understand why there's always an outcry when a new sourcebook comes out. If you don't like it, don't use it. (shrugs shoulders)

The ED-SR metaplot isn't gone, it's just not the central axis that the SR metaplot revolves around, nor is SR going to limit itself to a strict constraint of making sure everything matches ED material.

the culture shock section was the only one besides the adept section that i read front-to-back more than once. the 'top ten' lists made for some very high information density; i didn't notice the Killimanjaro blurb until my second pass. there were a lot of things in that section that made my jaw drop.

Speaking of the art, any pictures of a female troll?

specifics. well, the Chico-Oroville Dam thing was cool as hell. "army of shadowrunners" is just a fun phrase. Killimanjaro is big, big news. the Flatline Killer smacks of all kinds of metaplot links--the Network? Ex Pacis?

and i can't quite seem to get a good handle on what it might mean, but i keep seeing these odd links between Winternight and Deus.

Asides aside, I'm still very up in the air about what I've heard/seen/read. Hoping to get a good look at everything in another week or so, at which point I'll post back. More Deus hooks equals much goodness, however.

~J

indeed. it should be a given that one can deviate from the rules at any time, in one's own game--but if you end up deviating too much, you may as well just not buy the books at all. and if nobody's buying the books, FanPro/WizKids goes out of business, meaning no more SR products. that would make those of us that do use the books pretty unhappy.

One thing i have noticed, when discussing Tech vs. magic
is every Pen and Paper RPG where Magic and Technology are tools available for the players, the "slow path" where you must eventually build up, and do not start at the top of the power curve will usually have the higher top end.

Personally, I love the idea of mundanes and mundanes only being able to spend Karma to regain Essence or reduce the cost for cyber. This would shift the balance of power between the two back to the middle, where it's more fun for everyone.

Having played several characters that were little more than a few chunks on a table without their cyber, there quickly comes a point where there is nothing more you can do. Then I switch to playing an adept and I see the top end of the power curve, but then I remember that my cyber-junkie can retool for various tasks relativelty quickly, where a sword specialist phys-ad who has spent all their power on mastering the sword cannot.

I guess in the end it can be summed up, in my mind at least, as this:
Cyber has a rapid power curve, topping out potentially at char-gen until a new book is released, but there is more inherent versatility and flexability in the character concepts.
Magic has a slightly slower power curve (you don't pay the difference to go from a force 4 manaball to a force 5, they are separate spells) and the more power you gain, the more likely you are to be highly specialised and have more difficulty adapting to changing conditions.
Remember, a powerful mage draws powerful enemies.

This isn't a challenge to see who can build the most versatile killing machine based on magic, it's just been my observation of Shadowrun over the last 12 years, tempered by playing games like Rifts, D&D, and a host of other games.

Look, the point I was making there is that we are free to dislike rules. However, just as with everything else, sometimes people dislike a rule because they misinterpret it or because they don't notice an interesting application or because they dont understand how that rule would mesh with other canon rules, when in fact it does.

Basically, I see any given rule as one person's opinion (subject to review) of how something should work. Sometimes those people have their own misconceptions, and sometimes editorial review misses contradictions with existing rules. People are fallible, and rpg writers are (for the most part) people. For the most part I give the writers the benefit of the doubt, and try to mold my understanding of the game to fit with their presentations. Sometimes, however, they manage to produce something jarringly incongruous with how other rules have shaped my view of the world, and I hold it as my right to be annoyed.

When I dislike a rule vehemently, and am certain that I will not be swayed in my opinion, I dont bother post about it here. I agree that there would be no point in doing so. However, sometimes my dislike of a rule is based on one of the misconceptions I listed above, and I use this board as a tool to weed out those. Attempting to stifle discussion about the reasonableness of a particular rule is not productive towards those ends, and hey - if the rule really *is* reasonable, it shouldn't be terribly hard to defend. There are some very intelligent people on this board.

I certainly do not advocate that people avoid buying the books. I like shadowrun and want to see it thrive. But that is no excuse to blindly accept all of the rules at face value, nor is it a reason to avoid attempting to clarify one's opinion on a particular rule.

What?!? This is the dumpshock forum, rational discussion is not allowed here.

(I'd finally given in to the idea that people aren't capable of expressing opinions in a rational, non-ranting way, and now you're making me second-guess myself again. Damn you! )