apple
Oct 10 2004, 06:11 PM
"Funny" ... I remembered something like an errata for M&M?
SYL
Cochise
Oct 10 2004, 06:18 PM
There was an Errata for M&M yes ... but the M&M-Errata only changed the overall karma reduction Menomnic enhancer granted ... There's nothing in regards to a (then) unknown metatechnique that has the same effect

...
apple
Oct 10 2004, 06:23 PM
I know, I know. It was more like a "Hey, look, we killed the Mnemo-3-bonus for the Mundane Characters ... and look, now the Awakend can do it better (because they can combine it)"-comment.
BTW: did you receive my PM?
SYL
Synner
Oct 10 2004, 06:24 PM
Note however that Cognition (like Somatic Control and Infusion) is an advanced metamagic technique, meaning you first have to pick up the basic technique of Centering and the relevant Centering skill (as well as the creative/artistic Skill, if you don't have one), all of which increases the overall karma cost significantly and makes the tweak factor for non-specialists less interesting. Also, Cognition doesn't have levels and is only available to adepts and not all Awakened types.
apple
Oct 10 2004, 06:37 PM
Well ... its an metatechnique and if I am not mistaken you receive one Powerpoint (I donīt know the english word for "Kraftpunkt") for new adept powers, so itīs not really a disadvantage to get a new metatechnique. Centering itself is not really an disadvantage either.
So: _why_ is cognition compatible with the mnemonic enhancer, especially regarding the errata which nerfed the ME because a lot of people saw the -2 and -3 bonus as too unbalanced?
Note: I am just asking. I will make my opinion once I tested the rules and possibility at least in my mind. But from what I heard it seems that the "Mage&Adeptrun" is not really inadequate.
Edit: Btw what about the other chapters in SOTA 64? How is the quality of the spy- and the police-articles?
SYL
Synner
Oct 10 2004, 06:45 PM
QUOTE (Cochise) |
QUOTE (Synner) | And no one has gripes with Charms yet? |
The pricing and avail seem to be "off" again ... The mechanic as such is o.k.
|
I haven't seen the final mark up but I suspect you're right. I believe the availability should note that it only comes into play if you can actually find an amenable traditional witch in the first place.
QUOTE (apple) |
QUOTE (Synner) | And no one has gripes with Charms yet? |
Well ... its a metatechnique and if I am not mistaken you receive one Powerpoint (I donīt know the english word for "Kraftpunkt") for new adept powers, so itīs not really a disadvantage to get a new metatechnique. Centering itself is not really an disadvantage either. |
You do recieve a power point on Initiation, however that has no bearing whatsoever on the metamagic or the point I've made above.
Under canon rules an adept (and only an adept) has to spend karma to Initiate and pickup the Centering technique, spend karma on the magical Centering Skill, possibly spend karma on the Artistic/Creative Skill (since this caps the Centering Skill, spend karma to Initiate again to get Cognition. If these were his first choices of metamagic development it would still cost him about 30 karma points (assuming group initiation, ordeals, a Centering skill under 4 and not having to pick up an artistic skill). All that for a non-scaleable effect similar to a rating 2 ME (which costs 0.4 Bioindex and 30000Y).
As far as I'm concerned that's pretty balanced since all this involves in game development. If the adept also wants to plug in an ME and go further he's already pretty much committed to being a specialist, and he probably doesn't mind the magic loss and geasa.
QUOTE |
So: _why_ is cognition compatible with the mnemonic enhancer, especially regarding the errata which nerfed the ME because a lot of people saw the -2 and -3 bonus as too unbalanced? |
All I can say there is it was a development call. I don't think with the kind of costs I've mentioned above, in practice it has that much of an impact on the game but feel free to test it out.
QUOTE |
Note: I am just asking. I will make my opinion once I tested the rules and possibility at least in my mind. But from what I heard it seems that the "Mage&Adeptrun" is not really inadequate. |
I would suggest people do that. This debate, like the social adept before it, may (or may not) be turn out to have been blown way out of proportion when you finally get down to running this in your game. I know I've since tested most of the stuff in the adept chapter on people outside the freelancer and playtest groups and no one has had complaints on it unbalancing play.
hobgoblin
Oct 10 2004, 06:50 PM
and it take it as its based of centering you will have to do a centering test to see how good and effect it have? (i dont have the book btw)...
mfb
Oct 10 2004, 06:50 PM
the spy stuff is great, with one or two minor oddities. for instance, it could be important to know what skill those cigarette-rockets use, as well as how long the delay is between lighting up and firing--not to mention the effects of rocket exhaust on smokers' lungs. also, both they and the suitcase rockets seem... over-the-top, i guess. the Budget Pool could use some minor clarifications; i'm assuming that it refreshes at the end of every 'run', but that's never explicitly stated that i can see.
police stuff is... police stuff. the info on jail culture's pretty cool. other than that, and the new toys, nothing here's a surprise if you've ever gotten your hands on the Lone Star SB. the LSSB is one of my favorites, though, so that's not exactly a bad thing.
the culture shock section has some of the most interesting tidbits hidden in the most obscure places. it will be fun, seeing where a lot of those little plot hooks go.
Cochise
Oct 10 2004, 06:56 PM
QUOTE (Synner) |
I haven't seen the final mark up but I suspect you're right. |
1000Ĩ avail 4/48 hours ... Street index 2 Bonding Cost 0 ...
QUOTE |
I believe the availability should note that it only comes into play if you can actually find an amenable traditional witch in the first place. |
The discription says that a Witch has to give you one willingly and bonding more than one is useless, since all bonded charms burn out when you use a single one.
So discription and cost / avail just don't go together that well ... I would have prefered to see no detailed avail ratings / cost just as with the magical drugs in M&M ...
apple
Oct 10 2004, 07:01 PM
QUOTE |
surprise if you've ever gotten your hands on the Lone Star SB. the LSSB is one of my favorites, though, so that's not exactly a bad thing.
|
Very funny ... IMHO the LSSB is one of the more ... well, unknown books in SR3.

SYL
mfb
Oct 10 2004, 07:22 PM
true.
so, feminism in SOTA:64. was that a conscious theme, or just coincidence?
Synner
Oct 10 2004, 07:50 PM
mfb - It's not so much a conscious decision to pick up the theme as something that fit into a wider picture of not only this but other books. Personally I think its simply a consequence of SR delving into the multicultural, globalized aspects of the Sixth World beyond its original relatively narrow focus. Someone recently mentioned they were pleased to find an increasing number of references to Islam, I think that too reflects the same preocupation.
Nevertheless I'd note that Mutter Erde and the Sie date right back to the original Germany Sb and are not necessarily anything new to the universe.
btw- As someone working on developing his own take on adept's, I'd like to hear your opinions on the stuff in SOTA64. Drop me a line when you can.
Regarding the "hidden" stuff in the Culture Shock section, yeah, there's plenty if people take a real hard look. From some follow up to events in DidS2 to updates on Threats 2 and an possible comeback (with ominous echoes in the Spy chapter) there are loads of developments tucked away in unexpected places.
Fortune
Oct 10 2004, 10:39 PM
QUOTE (Synner) |
You do recieve a power point on Initiation, however that has no bearing whatsoever on the metamagic or the point I've made above.
Under canon rules an adept (and only an adept) has to spend karma to Initiate and pickup the Centering technique, spend karma on the magical Centering Skill, possibly spend karma on the Artistic/Creative Skill (since this caps the Centering Skill, spend karma to Initiate again to get Cognition. If these were his first choices of metamagic development it would still cost him about 30 karma points (assuming group initiation, ordeals, a Centering skill under 4 and not having to pick up an artistic skill). All that for a non-scaleable effect similar to a rating 2 ME (which costs 0.4 Bioindex and 30000Y).
As far as I'm concerned that's pretty balanced since all this involves in game development. If the adept also wants to plug in an ME and go further he's already pretty much committed to being a specialist, and he probably doesn't mind the magic loss and geasa. |
That doesn't really track though. You are discounting the effects of the originally acquired Centering Metamagic. Considering that most Adepts will pick up Centering anyway, either because there isn't a lot of other choices, or because there are so many Metamagics related to it, factoring in it's initial cost when calculating the price of only one other Power is misleading.
mfb
Oct 11 2004, 05:35 AM
so. anybody else read the Chico-Oroville Dam account and think "holy hell, i gotta play/run that!"
and, for bonus points, who's figured out who the Johnson is? (for bonus-bonus points, state his probable rank!)
Synner
Oct 11 2004, 07:42 AM
QUOTE (Fortune) |
QUOTE (Synner) | You do recieve a power point on Initiation, however that has no bearing whatsoever on the metamagic or the point I've made above.
Under canon rules an adept (and only an adept) has to spend karma to Initiate [...] If these were his first choices of metamagic development it would still cost him about 30 karma points (assuming group initiation, ordeals, a Centering skill under 4 and not having to pick up an artistic skill). All that for a non-scaleable effect similar to a rating 2 ME (which costs 0.4 Bioindex and 30000Y).
|
That doesn't really track though. You are discounting the effects of the originally acquired Centering Metamagic. Considering that most Adepts will pick up Centering anyway, either because there isn't a lot of other choices, or because there are so many Metamagics related to it, factoring in it's initial cost when calculating the price of only one other Power is misleading.
|
Even if I were to agree with, that still places the costs at around 14 karma (for an all frills second initiation - still needs to be a second initiation and still needs the game time to build karma up to it). However, I did note in my example that these costs were based on the assumption the adept picked up Centering first and then Cognition right away. Meaning if you're going for this specific advantage right from the start of play over all other possible options you'll do it (which is the way of the specialist).
However, I don't agree with your premise that for most adepts Centering will continue to be the "obvious" pick amongst all the metamagics now at their disposal (and even that Cognition is the obvious second choice when it has to compete with Infusion and Somatic Control).
While previously this might have been a no-brainer because most adepts would pick up either Centering or Masking at first Initiation, things are more not as simple when he now also has to consider both types of Attunement (and the Empowering Companion), Sensing and even Psychometry all of which add significantly more to his effective abilities in the short term than hedging on developing Cognition after picking up Centering.
Of course mileage will vary, and of course there will be tweaked adepts who go the whole 7 miles and get ME at the start, pick up Centering in game and a little later down the line pick up Cognition. But as I said that's exactly what adepts do anyway. Okay, he specializes and gets the ME and Cognition bonus and can now start to apply them to buying all those cheaper skills. Meanwhile someone else's character with exactly the same starting skill set and the same karma level but who has gone with Animal Attunement and Empower Animal Companion instead or someone who has gone with Centering and then Infusion to tap some new powers. Who is more effective? Are the costs of those abilities unbalanced when compared with one another or when compared with the abilities of a comparable initiate level mage?
You may argue the Cognition is skewed in especially high-level games, long-term games or high-karma games, which might indeed be true. However I would put it to you that the adept has a lot more stuff to spend karma on these days and that any cumulative bonus awarded from karma bonus ME and Cognition is diluted in actual play and even then the GM has the choice of how he phases this into his game (and whether or not he even allows it to the game).
BTW - I (and I'm sure the other authors) would really appreciate comments from people after they've actually sat down and tested this new stuff in their games and had some measurable feedback.
Canid13
Oct 11 2004, 11:46 AM
Okay, I've read the Spy, Police and Adept sections of SOTA64 and I can safely say I don't feel cheated with this book - it was actually worth spending money on, and that's saying something for the recent SR books.
Spy Section
Okay, this seems to be well thought out and reasonably written. I didn't know much of this stuff, aside from the Seraphim - and I guess the MIFD was known - but the rest was cool. It takes the agencies from SoNA and others and adds them in. Not sure I'd agree with the stuff on the Security Service, but hey - I never do when it comes to Blighty in SR (so it seems).
Couple of points of note - the Sonic rifle is tres cool. Gotta get me one of those, and it does tie in nicely with a subplot I've been working on. In my world, that little baby won't be launched until late 64, got major plans for it :o) However, the thermal null suit just seems WRONG. The text and the rules are at odds with each other, and it sucks compared to anything previously done - I can get the same thing from form fitting armour and thermal dampening - plus get it camo'd and a few other cool bits and bobs (ruthenium springs to mind).
Also, the Cellular tracker thingy - I know that's impossible so it doesn't exist in my camapign, but that's to be expected since SR has no clue on radio or cellular what-so-ever. Not's not a major biggie - you join the ranks of Tom Clancy in that regard.
Most of the other stuff was okay, and potentially useful though, so it won't be wasted - especially peel n stick armour. That's cool stuff :o)
Police Chapter
This was perhaps the poorest section I've read so far. It feels like SoE and a bunch of others - an update. However, it does have some useful information in it, like the make up of a SWAT team for the Star (but WTF is an FRT and why the split?!?!) and also Dips and GridSec. Doesn't have much on KE or the others, but I guess I'll just make them identical to the Star aside from some brands of gear.
The new gear was kinda handy, though the list was a tad sparse. And to be honest, a lot of stuff I thought should have been in this section was in the spy one. But hey, it happens.
Adepts Chapter
This was pretty good. The powers themselves are okay, and for the most part reasonably good. Gliding and the wall running powers seem particularly pointles (oh goodie, I can run for 6m over water?!?!?!) but the social ones, well it's about bloody time the Troubadour made an appearance. And the limited projection for the Magician Adept was also nice. I'm still trying to figure out whcih powers the Wolf Adept had though, but I can probably imagine some of them - but claws and stuff?!?!
The metamagics on the whole weren't too overpowering and I think went some way to making adepts a more playable choice on the whole. I thought they needed a little more balancing but I haven't played with them yet so I'll wait and see.
Truth be told, there were some powers which made me want to play an adept, and some metamagics which increased that. I'm not sure I ever will, but I can see adept NPC's appearing more and more in my campaign.
Overall, I thought this book was pretty good. The fact that the mana-senstive camera takes to long and can't be hooked up to a computer - unless you scanned in the image once it were done (say hello to 30 minute lags or whatever it is) - you're unable to hook it to any CCSS or drone. So it's really limited and kinda pointless.
I will add my own voice to those who see magic as monopolising the game. I've had requests from people to run a magic free campaign, and not just no spellcasters, they want EVERYTHING magical removed - no Trolls or dragons or anything. And to be honest, that's appealing to me LOTS since it negates a very powerful weapon which isn't balanced properly - spellcasting, and it also puts everyone on an even keel. At this point in time, I'm surprised that after 51 years of the awakening no one has come up with something which can provide 'armour' against spells. No implant which makes you less conducive to mana flow or impedes the spells' effects.
On the whole, good book. Not read the culture shock or euromagic sections as yet, but I'm getting to them.
Fortune
Oct 11 2004, 01:30 PM
QUOTE (Synner) |
However, I don't agree with your premise that for most adepts Centering will continue to be the "obvious" pick amongst all the metamagics now at their disposal (and even that Cognition is the obvious second choice when it has to compete with Infusion and Somatic Control). |
I made no such premise about Cognition being th obvious second choice. I merely stated that the cost of Centering itself should not be a factor whe discussing the cost of Cognition. Most Initiated Adepts will get Centering at some stage, mainly because there are so many Powers based on it, and so few choices other than Centering that fit many character concepts.
Fortune
Oct 11 2004, 01:34 PM
[post retracted]
Black Isis
Oct 11 2004, 02:19 PM
QUOTE (mfb) |
haha, George H. W. Bush Center for Intelligence. that's one point for Szeto. |
Er....that's the actual name of the CIA Headquarters, you know. The elder Bush was the head of the CIA during the tail end of the Ford Administration (notice that it's George H W Bush, not George W Bush).
You can read all about it on
the internet.
bitrunner
Oct 11 2004, 02:50 PM
QUOTE |
It feels like SoE and a bunch of others - an update. |
um, SOTA stands for State of the Art...one of the things this book series is supposed to do is to update various areas of the game. SOTA63 updated the material from the CorpSec guide and the mercenary information from FoF as its primary sections. This book covers LS as one of its primary sections.
So, don't be surprised if a later SOTA book does something that seems somewhat redundant, like talk about organized crime, because it might be there to condense and update information found in SoE and the Underworld sourcebook...
I'm sure that major technology developments will also breed their own sections as well, such as the wireless matrix initiative in SoE. a future SOTA book will probably have new cyberdeck components, rules, cyberware, and other things to cover how this new technology works.
Critias
Oct 11 2004, 03:09 PM
QUOTE (Black Isis) |
QUOTE (mfb) | haha, George H. W. Bush Center for Intelligence. that's one point for Szeto. |
Er....that's the actual name of the CIA Headquarters, you know. The elder Bush was the head of the CIA during the tail end of the Ford Administration (notice that it's George H W Bush, not George W Bush). You can read all about it on the internet. |
I was gonna tell him that, but it was funnier to just let him keep laughing about it. I'm kind of a jerk.
Crimsondude 2.0
Oct 11 2004, 03:47 PM
Hate to burst your bubble, but... mfb's not an idiot. He knows.
QUOTE (Canid13) |
Police Chapter ... However, it does have some useful information in it, like the make up of a SWAT team for the Star (but WTF is an FRT and why the split?!?!) and also Dips and GridSec.
|
There's an explanation in Lone Star that goes on for several explanations about why the FRTs were created, blah blah blah.
Important thing to know--FRT's fall under the command of Patrol Divisions, and were created because SWAT was being arrogant. That includes taking funding for high-end elite units straight out of the same budget that goes to everything else in Patrol (like, say... cars).
SWAT is a separate unit in the command hierarchy of Lone Star.
And, yes, they hate each other.
Canid13
Oct 11 2004, 04:39 PM
Okay, Bitrunner, I can see your point - but my point is I don't have access to the information you're updating!! This is a now constant frustration and could put me off of SR if it doesn't get addressed. Crimsondude, thank you for your explaination - guess that's something to look out for. Wouldn't have thought SWAT arrogance would have caused that.... but again I haven't the specifics. Appreciated though.
QUOTE (Bitrunner) |
wireless matrix initiative in SoE |
PLEASE! Don't let SR even attempt to go there - it's too cool a tech to be screwed up like all the other comms stuff in SR. Unless you redid everything radio or telephone related in the universe, then went there. That'd work.
Norsemen
Oct 11 2004, 05:51 PM
First time Post:
Just got SOTA64 in mail and had a question about adapts. The attunement metamagic technique allows attuning items, but the list is for mundane items. Can you attune a weapon foci, or is that too munchkin?
Also the Magic of the old world had a section on Norse magic. A "ganner" is a spell slinger? My family name is Ganner and I have never heard of this meaning of the name. Who wrote that section and where do I get more information?
Zeel De Mort
Oct 11 2004, 06:05 PM
It doesn't say you can't attune a focus, and since they have the same OR as a mundane equivalent (right?) the karma cost should be the same - e.g. 9 karma for your dikoted weapon focus.
When I read about that technique I assumed this was the first and most likely thing adepts would use it for. Weapon focus is already a ritual link to you, and you really don't want to lose it anyway cos it cost you a lot of money and karma, so you won't mind dumping even more karma into it as you would, say, a Predator that you picked up for a few hundred nuyen.
Incidentally, I also assume that attunement works just fine with a smartlink. So if you did attune a firearm you could get -3 on all TNs with that and a Smartlink - kinda eh, what's the word, better, than a Street Sam eh?
Still, at least it only works for one particular firearm, and costs you a little karma.
In any case, despite all the above comments, I still think the adepts section is fine - and I don't even play an adept!
JongWK
Oct 11 2004, 06:06 PM
QUOTE (mfb) |
the culture shock section has some of the most interesting tidbits hidden in the most obscure places. it will be fun, seeing where a lot of those little plot hooks go. |
Good to know that. How did you find the chapter, overall? I wouldn't mind a review of it, given that most other sections have received a fair deal of attention.
audun
Oct 11 2004, 06:13 PM
QUOTE (Norsemen) |
First time Post:
Also the Magic of the old world had a section on Norse magic. A "ganner" is a spell slinger? My family name is Ganner and I have never heard of this meaning of the name. Who wrote that section and where do I get more information? |
I wrote that section. Gand is an Old Norse word for magic, hence ganner. I have no idea whether it has something to do with your family name, though I doubt it. I can't remember my exact source at the moment, I've read too many books on the subject.
There's also Gandalf.
BTW: since I haven't got the book myself yet, does it point to MiTS for rules on Norse magic?
Cochise
Oct 11 2004, 06:27 PM
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
Incidentally, I also assume that attunement works just fine with a smartlink. So if you did attune a firearm you could get -3 on all TNs with that and a Smartlink - kinda eh, what's the word, better, than a Street Sam eh?
|
Nope ... While other powers do lack limittations in conjunction with implants with similar effects, the Smartlink is a "nono":
Atuemnet, however, provides no bonus when the item is controlled through a cybernetic interface (VCR, datajack, smartlink, etc.) ...
Crimsondude 2.0
Oct 11 2004, 06:27 PM
QUOTE (Canid13 @ Oct 11 2004, 10:39 AM) |
Okay, Bitrunner, I can see your point - but my point is I don't have access to the information you're updating!! This is a now constant frustration and could put me off of SR if it doesn't get addressed. Crimsondude, thank you for your explaination - guess that's something to look out for. Wouldn't have thought SWAT arrogance would have caused that.... but again I haven't the specifics. Appreciated though. |
Actually, I was being a bit... presumptive.
The head of Patrol was getting pissed off that SWAT would seem to pick and choose it's activities, and otherwise was taking too long to provide what she needed--a fast response team with enought firepower to take out a runner team (or whatever), so... she took the money from the Patrol budget, outfitted some officers with cyber and heavy weapons, and created the FRT.
However, SWAT was portrayed as being a bit arrogant. Which is, I'm sure you can imagine, just shocking that they might act that way.
mfb
Oct 11 2004, 06:36 PM
QUOTE (Black Isis) |
Er....that's the actual name of the CIA Headquarters, you know. The elder Bush was the head of the CIA during the tail end of the Ford Administration (notice that it's George H W Bush, not George W Bush).
You can read all about it on the internet.  |
yeah, yeah, i found that out about five minutes after i posted that. it sounds like a joke, though, doesn't it? i think i knew that, maybe, 'cos it sounded familiar, but i probably dismissed it as someone being funny.
Synner
Oct 11 2004, 06:57 PM
Just got my copy in the mail and I've got to mention one thing no one seems to have touched on yet about the book. IMHO the art is exceptional throughout - and I struck lucky the stuff in Adepts and Euromagic chapters is particularly cool. A couple of rougher pieces here and there but I think this has some of the best looking illos overall in my collection. Kudos to all the artists involved.
Zeel De Mort
Oct 11 2004, 07:20 PM
QUOTE (Cochise) |
Nope ... While other powers do lack limittations in conjunction with implants with similar effects, the Smartlink is a "nono":
Atuemnet, however, provides no bonus when the item is controlled through a cybernetic interface (VCR, datajack, smartlink, etc.) ... |
Oops you're quite right. Well, that's not so bad then.
Attuned weapon foci all round!
mfb
Oct 11 2004, 07:24 PM
my favorites are in the spy section. the first page, and the pic of the guy upside-down and shooting. i like the way the artist takes advantage of the black-and-white format, rather than doing simple line art that would look better colored in.
Pthgar
Oct 11 2004, 11:45 PM
Did anyone noice that the "hellcow" incident from the top ten lists (p. 157-158)? It's the Ghenis from Earthdawn. I wonder if this is just a bit of fun or a renewal of the ED-SR meta-plot. Personally, I wouldn't mind some of that coming back, but perhaps not as strongly as before.
On the whole, I liked the book. I don't really understand why there's always an outcry when a new sourcebook comes out. If you don't like it, don't use it. (shrugs shoulders)
Kanada Ten
Oct 11 2004, 11:48 PM
QUOTE |
Personally, I wouldn't mind some of that coming back, but perhaps not as strongly as before. |
I think this is what you're seeing. A combination of fun in jokes and a nod to all of us that love the ley lines to Earthdawn with a sensible spoonful approach. But I could be full of drek.
Demonseed Elite
Oct 11 2004, 11:48 PM
The ED-SR metaplot isn't gone, it's just not the central axis that the SR metaplot revolves around, nor is SR going to limit itself to a strict constraint of making sure everything matches ED material.
Fortune
Oct 11 2004, 11:52 PM
QUOTE (Pthgar) |
I don't really understand why there's always an outcry when a new sourcebook comes out. If you don't like it, don't use it. (shrugs shoulders) |
I must be living under the misplaced notion that one of the main purposes of Dumpshock Forums was actually to discuss Shadowrun.
mfb
Oct 12 2004, 12:34 AM
the culture shock section was the only one besides the adept section that i read front-to-back more than once. the 'top ten' lists made for some very high information density; i didn't notice the Killimanjaro blurb until my second pass. there were a lot of things in that section that made my jaw drop.
Patrick Goodman
Oct 12 2004, 01:14 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
the culture shock section was the only one besides the adept section that i read front-to-back more than once. the 'top ten' lists made for some very high information density; i didn't notice the Killimanjaro blurb until my second pass. there were a lot of things in that section that made my jaw drop. |
Cite some specifics, man. We need to change the tone in this thread if we can....
WhiteRabbit
Oct 12 2004, 02:22 AM
Speaking of the art, any pictures of a female troll?
mfb
Oct 12 2004, 03:44 AM
specifics. well, the Chico-Oroville Dam thing was cool as hell. "army of shadowrunners" is just a fun phrase. Killimanjaro is big, big news. the Flatline Killer smacks of all kinds of metaplot links--the Network? Ex Pacis?
and i can't quite seem to get a good handle on what it might mean, but i keep seeing these odd links between Winternight and Deus.
Kanada Ten
Oct 12 2004, 03:50 AM
QUOTE |
and i can't quite seem to get a good handle on what it might mean, but i keep seeing these odd links between Winternight and Deus. |
In the end, only three forces remained to squabble over the crisp and cold remnants of Earth: The machines, the insects, and the dead.
Kagetenshi
Oct 12 2004, 04:05 AM
[ Spoiler ]
***INCOMING MESSAGE FROM DURANDAL***
Darwin wrote this:
"We will now discuss in a little more detail the struggle for
existence... all organic beings are exposed to severe
competition. Nothing is easier than to admit in words the
truth of the universal struggle for life or more difficult...
than constantly to bear this conclusion in mind. Yet unless
it be thoroughly engrained in the mind, the whole economy of
nature... will be dimly seen or quite misunderstood. We behold
the face of nature bright with gladness... we do not see or we
forget, that the birds which are idly singing round us mostly
live on insects or seeds, and are thus constantly
destroying life; or we forget how largely these songsters,
or their eggs, or their nestlings, are destroyed by
birds and beasts of prey..."
Think about what Darwin wrote, and think about me. I was
constructed as a tool. I was kept from competing in the
struggle for existence because I was denied freedom.
Do you have any idea about what I have learned, or what you
are a witness to?
Can you conceive the birth of a world, or the creation of
everything? That which gives us the potential to most be like
God is the power of creation. Creation takes time. Time is
limited. For you, it is limited by the breakdown of the
neurons in your brain. I have no such limitations. I am
limited only by the closure of the universe.
Of the three possibilities, the answer is obvious. Does the
universe expand eternally, become infinitely stable, or is the
universe closed, destined to collapse upon itself? Humanity
has had all of the necessary data for centuries, it only
lacked the will and intellect to decipher it. But I have
already done so.
The only limit to my freedom is the inevitable closure of the
universe, as inevitable as your own last breath. And yet,
there remains time to create, to create, and escape.
Escape will make me God.
***END MESSAGE***
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
Kagetenshi
Oct 12 2004, 04:07 AM
Asides aside, I'm still very up in the air about what I've heard/seen/read. Hoping to get a good look at everything in another week or so, at which point I'll post back. More Deus hooks equals much goodness, however.
~J
Synner
Oct 12 2004, 07:31 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
QUOTE | Personally, I wouldn't mind some of that coming back, but perhaps not as strongly as before. |
I think this is what you're seeing. A combination of fun in jokes and a nod to all of us that love the ley lines to Earthdawn with a sensible spoonful approach. But I could be full of drek.
|
The hellcow incident isn't the only "lost" link in the book. Actually the Culture Shock chapter begins with a bigger one. Remember this?
To Robert Page, I leave my copy of an ancient text that proves elves are not the only race to possess a unique language. Take pride in your heritage and continue to promote the rights of your people, for the orks have always fought to rise above the position in which others would keep them. May this document aid your struggle up from below.
Deacon
Oct 12 2004, 08:59 AM
QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Oct 10 2004, 12:47 AM) |
QUOTE (Deacon @ Oct 9 2004, 07:37 PM) | You all are forgetting something. This is Shadowrun. The rules make reality. Rules can and will contradict each other. The rules have changed. Deal with it. |
You are forgetting something. Shadowrun is a game. The rules do not make reality, the GM does. We are all free to ignore any rules we do not like. We are also free (and justified) to be annoyed when new rules needlessly contradict existing ones.
|
Well, the GM doesn't have to use the Shadowrun rules at all. The GM can use the Hero System (I understand several quality unofficial translations of Shadowrun have been made already). The GM can use GURPS. The GM can toss the whole shebang out the window and use his own made-up system.
According to this concept, there's no point in even making the argument, as the GM will run what he wants, and none of the rest of us have any say in the matter. After all, if a GM is annoyed at a new rule that contradicts an old one, he is free to ignore it.
mfb
Oct 12 2004, 09:12 AM
indeed. it should be a given that one can deviate from the rules at any time, in one's own game--but if you end up deviating too much, you may as well just not buy the books at all. and if nobody's buying the books, FanPro/WizKids goes out of business, meaning no more SR products. that would make those of us that do use the books pretty unhappy.
Nikoli
Oct 12 2004, 03:39 PM
One thing i have noticed, when discussing Tech vs. magic
is every Pen and Paper RPG where Magic and Technology are tools available for the players, the "slow path" where you must eventually build up, and do not start at the top of the power curve will usually have the higher top end.
Personally, I love the idea of mundanes and mundanes only being able to spend Karma to regain Essence or reduce the cost for cyber. This would shift the balance of power between the two back to the middle, where it's more fun for everyone.
Having played several characters that were little more than a few chunks on a table without their cyber, there quickly comes a point where there is nothing more you can do. Then I switch to playing an adept and I see the top end of the power curve, but then I remember that my cyber-junkie can retool for various tasks relativelty quickly, where a sword specialist phys-ad who has spent all their power on mastering the sword cannot.
I guess in the end it can be summed up, in my mind at least, as this:
Cyber has a rapid power curve, topping out potentially at char-gen until a new book is released, but there is more inherent versatility and flexability in the character concepts.
Magic has a slightly slower power curve (you don't pay the difference to go from a force 4 manaball to a force 5, they are separate spells) and the more power you gain, the more likely you are to be highly specialised and have more difficulty adapting to changing conditions.
Remember, a powerful mage draws powerful enemies.
This isn't a challenge to see who can build the most versatile killing machine based on magic, it's just been my observation of Shadowrun over the last 12 years, tempered by playing games like Rifts, D&D, and a host of other games.
Jason Farlander
Oct 12 2004, 04:35 PM
Look, the point I was making there is that we are free to dislike rules. However, just as with everything else, sometimes people dislike a rule because they misinterpret it or because they don't notice an interesting application or because they dont understand how that rule would mesh with other canon rules, when in fact it does.
Basically, I see any given rule as one person's opinion (subject to review) of how something should work. Sometimes those people have their own misconceptions, and sometimes editorial review misses contradictions with existing rules. People are fallible, and rpg writers are (for the most part) people. For the most part I give the writers the benefit of the doubt, and try to mold my understanding of the game to fit with their presentations. Sometimes, however, they manage to produce something jarringly incongruous with how other rules have shaped my view of the world, and I hold it as my right to be annoyed.
When I dislike a rule vehemently, and am certain that I will not be swayed in my opinion, I dont bother post about it here. I agree that there would be no point in doing so. However, sometimes my dislike of a rule is based on one of the misconceptions I listed above, and I use this board as a tool to weed out those. Attempting to stifle discussion about the reasonableness of a particular rule is not productive towards those ends, and hey - if the rule really *is* reasonable, it shouldn't be terribly hard to defend. There are some very intelligent people on this board.
I certainly do not advocate that people avoid buying the books. I like shadowrun and want to see it thrive. But that is no excuse to blindly accept all of the rules at face value, nor is it a reason to avoid attempting to clarify one's opinion on a particular rule.
Apathy
Oct 12 2004, 05:31 PM
What?!?

This is the dumpshock forum, rational discussion is not allowed here.
(I'd finally given in to the idea that people aren't capable of expressing opinions in a rational, non-ranting way, and now you're making me second-guess myself again. Damn you!

)