As I understand it, we just have to leave no trace that *we* were there, so that they assume either she escaped on her own or she had such good help that it wouldn't be a good idea to try and track them.

It's my understanding that aside from the package being absent, which would be noticed eventually, no other pieces of evidence.

Unless some else speaks up, let's do this.

I'll give it until Sunday in case anyone wants to question/add/change anything, then (assuming RL cooperates) I'll write up the results of what seems to be the agreed-upon course of action.

Re Angel:

And that episode iirc was followed by Angel's apology to Buffy, on the other show. (She doesn't much seem to care for other people making her choices for her.) But this is particularly interesting:

No, not really. God pretty much knows how everything's gonna turn out in the end; we're the only ones who get to think we have choices simply because we haven't seen what lies beyond them yet.

... All the blood, it come out of my ear.

Of course we could argue that that free will is a matter of mathematical perspective... The photo-electric effect proves predestination, the wave interference test proves free-will. But this seems to have little to do with Shadowrun.

And yet, oddly enough, the free will/reward for good deeds dichotomy has everything to do with the tone of an individual Shadowrun game ... and a lot to do with the perceived degree of player personal control over a character's destiny. I know we were talking within the context of a television show, but what's being said here seems to suggest that the current views seem to be shifting toward a total lack of control over one's own fate -- in which case what's the point of doing "good" or doing "evil" anyway?

Basically there is none, really either way. Doing "good" doesn't inherently get you anything because if you're doing "good" to get stuff you're not doing "good", you're doing a job. At the same level, doing "bad" won't get you anything in the end either, 'cause anything you'd gain in this life can't be taken with you, despite what the Egyptians wanted to try with their giant pyramids.

Solitaire gets her three commands strung together. You didn't specify, but I'd assume (1) they'd take the one elevator straight to the tenth floor; (2) slow the other elevator enough for Ghost and Juliana to get to the bird and get clear; and (3) continue the camera/motion detector looping to end shortly after those two are clear. It raises the security tally by two, activating the next level of defensive IC, which she dodges handily but increases the security tally by one more in the process. Three is still less than her net successes, so the command set stays up.

No unwelcome surprises on the tenth floor. General sighs of relief. Delay getting from tenth floor to roof due to Ghost's and Juliana's physical condition. (Wiggling through a roof vent at serious +'s to TNs isn't fun.) If Solitaire hadn't written in a delay to the other elevator in parallel, there would have been serious problems. As it is, Ghost and Juliana are safely away. Interesting point: it's being rigged, but it seems Juliana knows how to work one of these.

Advent is able to release the tap a bit earlier than he expected he'd be able to, because of the delay in the other guards getting to the roof. The walker drones have to be abandoned in the ventilation ducts: no way can they all be retrieved before the secguards reach the roof. Advent sticks them in an out-of-the-way ventilation corner somewhere, and hopes that they won't be found before the team can get back to retrieve them. Maybe the air elemental helped out, here? Eyeless Blond was suggesting something like that, last page. Er -- I mean "Blondie". I'll try to remember that in future

The getaway plan is in operation wrt Solitaire, Advent, Ghost, Juliana, and Trogdor's body.

Diamond has a problem. Multiple potshots and knives when it becomes obvious that he's bolting (being cool about it, of course -- but "cool" comes with difficulty in this area, and comes across as even more suspicious than it might otherwise be). Two knives land for net L damage; three pistol shots which make it through after visibility and movement modifiers work out to M damage each after armored clothing TN reductions. Advent sees Diamond go down. (On the plus side, such as it is, neither gang seems to have had a mage.) His trying to depart becomes the catalyst which brings both gangs into full combat with each other. Now that he's down, they're ignoring him; and he's now in the clear.

Trogdor will still be awol by the time you reach the medicine lodge. Er -- that is, are you going straight there, or are you waiting safely out of range in order to pick up the drones before you take off?

Was seriously rushed when I wrote that last bit, but I wanted to get it done. A bit of expansion on Diamond's situation:

Two pistol shots (M each)
The first two pistol shots came from the gang leader's gun, which he had been holding concealed on Diamond ever since the situation started getting out of hand and Diamond (and their payoff) started showing signs of suddenly taking off. The first was a clean hit, the second came within one success of being staged down to an L. So that's the first held action.

One knife stab (L)
The second held action came from the gang leader's lieutenants, who were on edge already and who were more focused toward Diamond because of their leader's focus. When their leader acted, so did they. Diamond managed to avoid the cyberspurs entirely -- remember, he'd spotted them earlier? -- but only managed to counter the knife back down to a L. At this point Diamond has no combat pool left.

The shots spur the entire gang into attacking; and with that the other gang surges forward as well ... which counts as another held action. Still in the same round, heck, still in the same phase:

One pistol shot (M)
A bunch of pistols were pulled out at this point and aimed wildly at targets. One of those targets was Diamond. One lucky shot hit -- and he has no combat pool left at this point.

At this point Diamond is down. The guy with a knife sticks it in him a last time -- yes, as he's lying on the ground -- as the gang sweeps by him and past him. And after that, they ignore Diamond, and are in full-pitched battle with the other gang. No one's even stopped to loot him.

One option Diamond does have is to perma-burn a karma pool point for one extra success, which would get that one pistol shot down to an L, and would make the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness. But that's a snap decision ... and at that point Diamond still thought he was getting away. But if you decide he'd have burned it ...?

Well, like I said, he shouldn't have been there in the first place. I dunno about you, but if I were on that team I'd be tempted to firebomb the whole damn gang after that little shitstorm there. This ain't even a matter of doublecrossing the Johnson after the run; this is more like geeking the Johnson during the first meet. I certainly hope after that little spectacle that every one of Diamond's 20 contacts and possibly their friends descend on that gang like a plague of locusts; talk about stabbing the hand that feeds you, yeesh.

Anyway, Diamond at *least* wasn't actually carrying any cred on him at the time, was he? Now that would have been *really* stupid.

Can I point out that he's not dead yet? that Advent is perfectly aware of what happened; and (once again) that Diamond is currently being ignored by everyone? That last, by itself, should indicate that this isn't really a rational situation ... just in case all the other environmental cues didn't bring it across ...?

Hm, good point, though from Advent and Solitaire's points of view he just got geeked for no good reason (remember they're fairly well out of range of the effect of this place, well we hope anyway.) And my point still stands: he never should've been there in the first place. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20.

Anyway, we still ought to get him out of there; surging riots aren't a great place to take a nap; as many people die from being trampled as from actual fighting in those kinds of crowds. At least Solitaire's Biotech skill plus task pool should let us know he's still alive, as she should have fairly easy access to camera feeds from Advent's eye in the sky. The question is, do we break cover and go in now to pick him up, or trust in the luck that seems to be very quickly deserting us that he doesn't get crushed under the heels of the teeming masses and maintail cover? And, if we do decide on the later, how do we later pick up the body?

Well, what's done is done.

I'm no happier about the gang leaders punking on us than you are, but we can make sure they get theirs later. (after all, there's no percentage in grudges. but I'm definitly with you on the payback. maybe we'll even cut the opposing gang that didn't shank us a bonus in cred or weapons or something. make a point, and some new friends in the process)
I think we should get Diamond out asap, and not leave anything to chance. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, though.
Eyeless Blond, Crusher Bob, what do you think?

Agreed, we definately need to get him out of there. Should we (potentially) blow our cover with the warwagon though? How large is this gang war?

Is charging in really going to blow the cover? It'll just be a van slamming into a gang war. It could belong to either gang.

Do we still have some ghosties on call? Can they yank him into the van?

Yeah sure, just get Diamond to call 'em in...

Heh, knew I should have shelled out for a trauma damper in the design phase, it would have reduce that meat grinder to serious physical and moderate(4) stun. Of course, I tend to avoid them these days as they are soo cheesy...

Sign, and the forums always seem to be down by the time I get off work, so no writing about free will yet.

Since it sounds like Ghost and the package don't need any more help to get away, so best get the van moving up.

Hmm, how well can you use etiquettea nd negotiations when rigging an anthroform drone? The rigger/face who does his negotiations via a drone might be an interesting idea.

Thanks. Lurked long, this is the first time I really had much to add.

Anyway, whether or not anyone watching would connect the van to either gang is really kind of a moot point. The guards watching the fight will probably just see this big melee and then out of nowhere this van crashes the party. If it's done right, it might not even be apparent that the van is pulling someone out. The guards will be watching, getting worried, and then probably saying "what the hell is this about?"

I don't think this is blowing the cover because there's nothing to connect the van to what will inevitably be discovered to have gone wrong on the inside. If they make the connection after that, so what?

I say we go in for Diamond, and fast. Treat the betrayers "preferentially" when choosing targets.

Oh, and what his spirits do is really on him right now. We can't count on any specific result there.

Agreed. Sounds like the best option to me. We should hold off the Lone Star call until after picking up Diamond.

One possible issue though is that we don't know how the gangers will react to the van pulling up and actually opening. Will they attack Solitaire and Advent? Can that be prevented? How do we get Diamond into the van after getting it there?

The van could try to establish itself as being for one gang or the other. This is why I suggested that if anyone has to die, it should be betrayers. While the other gang isn't going to have a clue what's going on, fire from them should be fairly scattered if the damage seems to be falling on their opponents.

What I'm really hoping for is that the whole thing will be fast enough, and surprising and shocking enough, that there won't be an appreciable response quick enough to really cause damage. If Diamond is snatched quickly and the van closed again, the gangers can pummel the war wagon all they want while the group drives away. I admit that this is only a hope (a reasonable one I think) but we're in a situation where we're running out of options that are both certain and palatable.

As for actually grabbing Diamond, someone's going to have to jump out/reach out and grab him. Solitaire, I assume, since Advent is going to be driving.

With what, her Strength of 2? we're gonna need something else to at least help, if not do the work for her. Did Diamond even get the Levitate spell off, or did he manage to get retaliated against before his action? Or he could get one of his air elementals to carry him, maybe. Not that it matters if he's unconscious, I guess. Does any of the rigger's drones have a mechanical arm to use here?

How much are we getting paid for this run again?

Whoa, somehow overlooked that on the charsheet. Hmmm... she doesn't have to carry him, just drag him aboard.

"Not enough" is the answer, as always.

Oh, and one more question: does the warwagon have a cowcatcher?

I guess I'm most worried about the van and our people getting jacked if they move in to pull out our guy. Could Solitaire control the van and let Advent yank Diamond in? I'm thinking one of those pop the door, holding a gun, grab Diamond one-handed and drag him in kinda things. I don't know what he was wearing for the ganger fight, probably more or less street clothes, nicer then average, but good enough to help him fit in? In our runs, our team usually wears combat vests, the ones with pockets and an "oh shit" handle between the shoulder blades. They come in handy more often than you'd think, but this probably isn't the situation for them.

Anybody have a smoke grenade to provide some concealment while trying to get him out? Or maybe a flash grenade to temporarily blind those nearby?

Things Ghost has are on the second page of this thread

At somewhere between 7-9 boxes of Stun, she is doing good to walk in a straight line.

Well we could just go in there and unload about 200 gel rounds, supressive-style, over the area around Diamond. That would probably get everyone to back away pretty quick, and not be *much* louder than flashbands and smoke grenades.

And that's our next upgrade for those tanks, btw, if we can fit it: a grenade launcher.

Let's not drop, throw, launch or otherwise move grenades into the vicinity of the nearly-dead comrade. Just sayin'.

Flash (not Flashbang) or Smoke grenades wouldn't be a problem. They can't injure him any. That is why I suggest them specifically.

I would say suppressive fire over the whole area would indicate a third party too strongly, but I could be wrong.

edit: wait, I'm retarded, nevermind.

Does the warwagon have the pattern changing paint? We could change it to look like a DocWagon or similar ambulance...

Being (meta)human, I'm suddenly very curious as to what you'd written, Shanshu

The details of Advent's drones are on this page The warwagon has just about everything except camouflage paint. What DocWagon ambulances look like, courtesy of Ral Partha (#20-549).

I burst out lol when I read what you'd written, Garland

Specifically here (gotta love the #entry feature)

Showoff

About a minute's worth, which should be sufficient for most practical purposes (unless you're staying in the area for some, oh, emergency purposes). And thank you: that summary was more than I had expected