p.72, shadowtalk by Glasswalker -

It's a lot easier to surprise someone with a sniper rifle from across the street and a few floors up than it is to sneak up on them with a knife. Everything is really dangerous when you're rolling for successes and you have a decent dicepool; that's just how SR4 works.

Anyway, the martial arts rules don't concern me much; it's still expensive to get a jacked up damage value and even then I doubt melee will be spectacularly deadly. I've GMed a couple melees with my group and it's been juiced up ork and troll gangers with combat axes and big clubs (damage value similar to that seen with Maces in Arsenal) vs. PCs with shock weapons and monofilament whips, yet things were still considerably less deadly than pulling out a light pistol or a pair of holdouts. Bottom line is that it still takes a complex action to make a melee attack and people are still entitled to make a defense roll with appropriate skills added even without spending a pass while firearms are reaction only unless you're willing to spend a pass on defense. And if you do have the passes to go on full defense in melee it's now the defender's Reaction+Skillx2 vs. the attackers Agility+Skillx1; melee is one of the few areas where you can say the dicepools favor the defender. Melee combat was and remains a niche tool for specialists to use against the unskilled/unaware or as a defensive skill used to survive someone taking a swing at you.

It doesn't make sense to me. It just takes things right back to the cross-training sucks paradigm again. People are paying roughly 5 bp per bonus here, after all. To me having trained in Kung Fu, Muay Thai and Boxing and taking the DV bonus from each is less about knowing many different ways to strike and more about sheer dedication and time spent on the simple act of introducing your knuckles to their face. It's less "I know many different ways to punch a man" and more "In the time I have spent on developing my striking power, I could have learned many different ways of approaching combat. On the bright side, I can knock trolls the fuck out in three strikes."

There was a lot of debate about that exact subject, whether PCs could syncretize their individual martial arts into a unique style, or to restrict them to one style (and its attendant bonuses) at a time. Ultimately, it was decided that all of a character's martial arts would stack, and if they wanted to restrict themselves for whatever reason by withholding dice, or taking longer to perform an action, etc. that was up to them.

So if, for example, you're in a tournament and want to make your opponents underestimate you, you might hold back dice from your tests and say you're only using a specific style or two.

Crosstraining isn't just about learning to do different things, it's about blending them together until you end up with something better than you had before, and sometimes that's as simple as training differently to emphasize different muscle groups or practicing with new drills. Beyond a certain point martial arts is at least as much about conditioning and reps as much as it is about learning different techniques; it's as much how you train as what you learn. If you take Boxing: +2 DV and Wrestling: +2 Submission, you have split your time training between your groundfighting and your strikes. If you took Boxing:+2 DV and Muay Thai:+2 DV instead, you may not be reinventing the wheel every time you throw a punch but you have seriously invested a ridiculous amount of time on being a pure stand up fighter, and it should show.

Honestly, there's only so many different things the human body can do, after a certain point it's less about "I know 89 different ways to hurt you" and more "I spend 30 hours a week in the gym, and it's all spent on asskicking."

Is there a secret I'm missing, or is the Disorient Maneuver just plain worthless?
If it would cause a penalty of net hit dice or at least do damge.... but as it is, it's essentially wasting an action.

I think what Whipstitch was saying, Fortune, was not that knowing many different ways to punch a man would make you punch harder, but that training equally in the different styles would make you a more effective puncher no matter what way you were(spending 10 on two styles instead of 5 on one) actually hitting them with at that time. I know alot of people, myself included, are kind of dubious about the Human Weapon guys, but if they are legit they would be very good examples of this. They train for a week and using mostly just the skills they pick up, but because of their previous knowledge of fighting and bio-physics and such they are much better at whatever fighting style they are trying that week than they have any right to be after just a week of training.

Chris

Yeah, disorient is pretty worthless; I'd much, much rather try and disarm someone or subdue them if I was trying to hinder someone without killing them.

...@Whipstitch, After reading through them again, I actually agree with your take concerning the expanded Martial arts Rules. They give only a slight edge, and I think are more useful for mundanes than adepts. Hannah was an interesting experiment, as I wanted to see just how far melee combat could be pushed. However even she still had a ranged attack with her throwing skill (usually grenades or 8-balls). My other two adepts, the Short One and Da Brat both have skill and a decent DP with guns.

As I mentioned earlier I am hesitant to use the new Martial Arts rules for an adept because of the high BP/Karma cost. About the only really useful moves I see are Two Weapon Fighting (because it allows you to take both a defensive and offensive action in the same phase), Reposte and Final Move (I think that is what it's called, am at work right now & don't have access to the PDF) however for these two (especially used in tandem with each other as someone brought up) you need 3 IPs because they are use up your next action(s). Again this favours the Sammy who can get those 2 extra IPs for a mere 32,000 (7 BPs) . instead of 3 PP (30 BPs).

I'm just going to stick with Specialisation "Martial Arts Style - [martial art]" and take the standard +2 to the DP.

So? Why can't the adaptation be knowing how and when to use the perfect striking technique for any given situation leading to a consistently higher damage value? It's an abstract game after all, and the characters aren't standing there trading blows like it's Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.

I threatened a 24DV code once!



...Okay, Okay, fine. I did it by hitting a guy with a limo, but that has to count for something.

...that works, after all a vehicle is a weapon in the right (or wrong, or drunk) hands.

And here I thought that's what you were advocating with the whole "I'll make them choose and swap styles for situational bonuses" thing. And boxing may not help you choose the theoretical perfect technique if that technique isn't covered by boxing, you'd instead be limited to doing the best you can with what you know. Maybe you lure them in with a quick jab as a feint and then use your fancy wushu footwork to sidestep before introducing them to your elbow ala Muay Thai. Who knows? The game's pretty abstract and it could support all sorts of situations with a little imagination and very little dice manipulation.

Anyway, my personal preference would be that they simply didn't bother limiting you to choosing a bonus only once or twice per art. I'll admit that the limitation has some use if you're restricting your players to using only those martial arts styles listed, but we're already talking about a purely optional system here and the game happily encourages to create your own styles, so we quickly enter the realm of "whatever BS the GM lets you get away with" anyway. As such I'd be fine with someone taking the whole 30bps worth of martial arts qualities for +6 to DV at chargen as a top notch boxer rather than a top notch boxer/ninja/luchador/super saiyan/power ranger/whatever, especially since such a DV bonus is already easily achieved by the RAW through normal means but with different names.

Ah, I didn't notice that, although frankly, I don't really care. It's an abstract game, not a boxing simulator. If the PC ends up in a boxing match I might go along with what AH said and say "Well, you're wearing boxing trunks and boxing gloves in a boxing ring using boxing moves while following boxing rules so you only get your boxing bonuses", but in the middle of a shadowrun I'll assume the player goes ahead and just plain fucks the other guy up however he can. I guess if you want to go through and make judgement calls about when and where a fight becomes a "ideal boxing situation," that's your business.

To the "how do different styles DV bonuses end up stacking", let us take the example listed:
- Boxing: +2 DV
- Karate: +1DV
- Kung Fu: +1DV
- Wildcat: +1DV
- Muay Thai: +2DV


Boxing is about speed and raw power of your punch. When you are dealing with punches that can, without the padding, break someone's jaw, or crush their skull, you have alot of raw poer there. Additionally, the power is put into the whole arm.

Muay Thai uses alot of elbow strikes, which are faster(do to the shorter distance), and hit more based on the fact that the elbow has less give then the fist. You have this combined with the immense power that has been trained into the upper body from the boxing training.

Karate trains for fluid motions, and while its strikes are not as powerful as Muay Thai or boxing, it is faster, so its DV boost comes from the speed of the blow, which is added to the raw power of the Boxing and Muay Thai.

Kung Fu focuses on the striking of key spots, which which would stack with the fast, powerful elbo smash to a vital spot.

And, WildCat, if it is like modern military styles, is going to have physical conditioning, which may or may not exceed the other martial arts, but it would put an emphasis on lethality, not self-defense, and thus there would be no holding back.

So, what you have is fast, unrestrained, powerful elbow strikes into vital areas, which are going to do more damage then just a power ful strike anywhere, or a fast strike to a vital area.

I think my point is that, if a character could spend just as much working on just Boxing (for example), then he should be as good in that area. Maybe this is fixed by allowing a single style to be taken over and over again to reflect the additional bonuses of intensive training.

It just strikes me as wrong that the the ultimate boxer in the world, in the best shape of his life, can be easily surpassed in damage potential in the boxing ring by some punk with a bit of boxing and a smattering of karate.

'some punk' that has more damage training than the 'ultimate boxer'...

I think that if mixing a bit of karate and other martial arts would seriously improve pure boxing without even using those techniques in a way prohibited by the boxing rules, then boxing would incorporate that training - meaning, stacking boxing specialisation should offer the same benefit as cross-training for the purposes of punching in a boxing match.

It does, to a certain degree. Then it's either learning new ways or being stuck.

I´m all for pooling the options of all possessed Martial Arts. You select from the full pool, so additional damage would be limited to +2 (Muay Thai). Yes, learning different arts will be common. From my experience with the martial arts, many people try different styles, and in a free-for-all, it would be quite an advantage to know techniques the opponent doesn´t.

If I was building a close-combat specialist, I´d prefer to go with a single style to the max. It just "feels" different if your char has perfected the art.

Okay, let's talk about focus vs. bricolage for a moment.

Your ultimate boxer would probably take an Aptitude and a Martial Arts specialization in Unarmed Combat, and of course max out his Boxing Martial Arts quality-he can't do it all at character generation, but down the road he could have Unarmed Combat 7 (Martial Arts +2), eight maneuvers, and then he can really pump up his attributes (speed, stamina, durability, punching power) and reflexes.

Your combat artiste takes one or two advantages from a bunch of styles; this means sacrificing points that could go to improving her combat skills. This is a bad thing because the number of dice you can add to a test from Martial Arts is limited by your skill. In a one-on-one match, the combat artiste is almost guaranteed to be rolling fewer dice than the ultimate boxer, but of course she gets more bonuses on lots of things-and maybe she likes to play dirty and bring a gun and Ares' Firefight to a boxing match.

That's two characters on side-to-side development. Of course, the boxer might do some cross-training to take advantage of his very high Unarmed Combat skill, possibly a little kickboxing or savate to round himself out.

The main concern I see from y'all is DV stacking. It's a valid concern, and I don't know what the official ruling might be, seeing as how the quality talks solely about dice modifiers stacking. I'm tempted to say only the highest DV modifier applies, but at the moment that's something you'll have to decide for yourselves.

the two "cyborg body" drones are missing in the charts at the bottom of the book. I am at work right now so I haven't the book but that I remember. What I don't remember are the names... Were they Akiyama and Otomo?

Also: It was really nice to have all the drug costs and availability in the book. That I was expecting.

Plus. I liked the Martial Arts rules, they are very plug and play; and if somebody doesn't like them it's very easy to leave them out. Also, they are costly enough not to be game breaking... Don't forget it's very easy to get to 12+ Dv punches anyway: think orks, bone lacing, critical strike, etc...

Cheers,

Max

Another nice combo - especially for those who missed the SR3 melee rules:

Basis: The Escrima Advantage to cause Damage when disarming.
Combo: Use Two Weapon Style to get Full Defense for 'free' (in addition to the Two Weapon Defense Bonus) and use Disarm to counter any attacker while on 'free' Full Defense.
Upgrade: Use Watchful Guard to get a second defense without dicepool degradation.

Effect: The Attacker is met with a defense of Attribute+2xSkill-5 (Attribute+2xSkill-3 without Offhand Penalty) that will cause Damage and result in Weapon loss if successful.

Caveat: Works only on armed enemies and thus, usually only once in combat. (No weapon, no disarming)

FollowUp: Riposte with Set-Up, then Finishing Move. (That will usually not only waste the enemy, but also actions for turns to come...)

Also if these two are fighting in the ideal boxing ring, then the cross-training guy can't use most of his skills, because it would break the rules of a boxing match.

You keep claiming that these guys shouldn't have such differences in their punching power, but SR melee combat has NEVER been a single punch. The boxer punches. The guy who has spent 100 extra karma on various martial arts punches, then grabs/joint locks, breaks a limb, tears his throat out, and then breaks his neck. He's doing more with his complex action, because he's spent more karma on kicking ass.

In a boxing match, the rules of the sport would prevent the cross training guy from using a lot of his styles, which would bring his overall power level closer to the boxer. In a real street fight, the professional boxer would get his butt handed to him by the guy who has trained more (represented by much, much higher karma investment) and in various styles. And I think that's realistic.

When it comes right down to it, one person has invested more karma into beating ass, and they deserve to beat more ass. This is a game, and you should get what you pay for.

Now I can still see a very valid argument remaining, and I think this is getting more at where Fortune is going. In all of these examples, the cross training guy has trained more than the boxer has. He has invested more karma. Thus, he beats more ass. No big surprise. But Fortune wants to compare a boxer who has just as much training. The issue is, that's sort of impossible, because the boxer has already maxed his boxing out and has run out of ways to spend karma on boxing. Well, by the book, the only way for the boxer to beat more ass at boxing is to start training in something else. It's a bit odd. But it's not unreasonable to think he's study some other styles to help his boxing. He might not pile on all the +DV stuff (because again, most of those techniques probably break the rules of boxing, and/or are accomplished with parts of the body other than hands) but if he takes the right mix of techniques and spends an equal amount of karma as the other guy, he should be able to take him.

@Rotbart: Nice combo.

'Pure' is nothing but a nice word for 'limit'. So the Boxer will fall behind.

And yet skills cap at 6, or 7 with aptitude. In SR world there is a limit to how much you can learn. The pure boxer, is a good boxer, but in a street fight he's only a boxer and when the other person doesn't have to box he's going to kick elbow, and claw the boxer to shreds. Bonus DV because melee combat isn't a punch its a series of maneuvers that have the end result of X DV.

Yeah, I basically agree with Moon-hawk since I fall in between the "pure"="limited" camp and what Fortune's saying. As I said earlier, I'm pretty comfortable with a pure boxer progressing so far in his style that he's so good that he's functionally as powerful as if he trained in multiple styles that all emphasize DV and I think that's an easier "fix" than shafting people with 5 bp situational bonuses.

If you want to really extend it, you could break "Boxing" into many different styles (or schools, maybe), each with their own bonuses.

Well, that was part of the idea of including similar styles in parantheses. Rince an Bhata Uisce Bheatha, for example, is a form of Irish stick fighting closely related to boxing. Change Unarmed to Clubs in the bonuses and you're done.