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deek
Am I missing the cost for refueling vehicles? I know that standard operation time is 6 hours and that while in the "city" power can be drawn from the grid and therefore operate forever...but what happens when you are outside the cities and need to refuel? Cost, capacity...???
Jaid
QUOTE (deek @ Feb 19 2008, 08:11 PM) *
Am I missing the cost for refueling vehicles? I know that standard operation time is 6 hours and that while in the "city" power can be drawn from the grid and therefore operate forever...but what happens when you are outside the cities and need to refuel? Cost, capacity...???

lifestyle ftw!

(honestly, who wants to nickel and dime this sort of thing? just either charge them a flat rate added to their lifestyle cost if their lifestyle is too low to include a vehicle, or consider it part of their lifestyle, imo)
Dashifen
QUOTE (KnightHawkRP @ Feb 18 2008, 03:23 PM) *
I have a question on the PDF books in general. Can you print them? I know some pdf's are locked against that because they dont want us to reproduce, and I understand that... but I would really like to have a tabletop copy I can print out for reference. The computer is in another room and I dont like having to run back and forth if we have questions. Plus, Its just easier to thumb through something you can hold.


I printed and bound mine in a nice coil binding at the local Kinko's. It's a little flimsy and the pages could get torn out if you're not careful, but it'll tide you over until its released in hard copy.
Ryu
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 20 2008, 08:57 PM) *
I printed and bound mine in a nice coil binding at the local Kinko's. It's a little flimsy and the pages could get torn out if you're not careful, but it'll tide you over until its released in hard copy.


You can print them, and with a small investment in professional printing on heavy paper (100g/m2+), and having that bound, the quality is not far from a real book.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 19 2008, 06:22 PM) *
lifestyle ftw!

(honestly, who wants to nickel and dime this sort of thing? just either charge them a flat rate added to their lifestyle cost if their lifestyle is too low to include a vehicle, or consider it part of their lifestyle, imo)

...but as GM it was so much fun... vegm.gif

Runners on a road trip toolin' along through the PCC when they pass a sign, "Next Gas 400KM". The sammy speaks up, "Hey Slick, did ya remember to gas up back at Barstow? Rigger looks down at fuel gauge, now reading about a quarter tank...
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Feb 20 2008, 03:57 PM) *
I printed and bound mine in a nice coil binding at the local Kinko's. It's a little flimsy and the pages could get torn out if you're not careful, but it'll tide you over until its released in hard copy.



My estimate from kinkos for that is $102... wow.
Ryu
What kind of dollars are those? You should get the full deal for under 10 Euros in Germany. There is an error in the magnitudes I hope.
cryptoknight
That was in US Dollars... but I was trying to print the whole thing in color.

I then changed it to cover in color, rest in B&W.

I'm trying to now argue with Fedex Kinkos that I should be allowed to print and bind the blasted PDF.

Anywhere on Battlecorps that I have the right to print the bloody thing?
the_dunner
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Feb 20 2008, 06:25 PM) *
Anywhere on Battlecorps that I have the right to print the bloody thing?


Try here: Terms of Service.
jago668
Looks like you can, under restriction on use of materials section. It says you can print stuff as long as it is for personal use. Only it states specifically the website and things found on it. So I don't know if the pdf would be considered on the website. However I'd show them that and see where it would get me.
cryptoknight
They finally relented... but from reading it... I could buy the pdf and print multiple copies... as long as I don't sell them (i.e. I give them to my play group to use as source material while we game together) I could print as many as I wanted... interesting.
Aaron
Kinkos has a form you can sign that says that they're indemnified from fault and that you state that you own the pdf file and have the right to make a hard copy back up. You might have to ask for it; some of the wage slaves don't know it exists.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Aaron @ Feb 21 2008, 10:22 AM) *
Kinkos has a form you can sign that says that they're indemnified from fault and that you state that you own the pdf file and have the right to make a hard copy back up. You might have to ask for it; some of the wage slaves don't know it exists.


That's a very good tip... thanks!

I was a bit put off at their $0.49/page for color prices... I know what it costs them... typical high quality copiers cost about $.03/page color. I'd have happily paid as much as $.10/page... instead I got black and white. But at least now I can curl up somewhere and read arsenal instead of squinting at a PC and getting neck strain.
deek
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Feb 21 2008, 12:50 PM) *
That's a very good tip... thanks!

I was a bit put off at their $0.49/page for color prices... I know what it costs them... typical high quality copiers cost about $.03/page color. I'd have happily paid as much as $.10/page... instead I got black and white. But at least now I can curl up somewhere and read arsenal instead of squinting at a PC and getting neck strain.


Funny, I did the exact same thing last week. It only cost me $20 to print...B&W pages, coil bound, clear vinyl front cover and thick black cardstock back cover. I could have spent a $1 more to get the first page i.e. cover, printed in cover, but didn't really care to.
deek
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 19 2008, 09:22 PM) *
lifestyle ftw!

(honestly, who wants to nickel and dime this sort of thing? just either charge them a flat rate added to their lifestyle cost if their lifestyle is too low to include a vehicle, or consider it part of their lifestyle, imo)


I'm not wanting to nickel and dime it, especially seeing that most of the time runners are in the city and there doesn't need to be any refueling. I'm thinking more of some longer, wilderness treks. I mean, if we really didn't need to worry about this sort of thing, why then even have a 6 hour operating time?

I don't roll too much into lifestyle besides food, shelter and living amenities (e.g. furnishings, clothing, entertainment). It just seems that this was a glaring omission...I mean, we don't even get a recharge time or something? I mean, once that 6 hours is up...is the vehicle just dead if its outside of the city, or can it gimp along with solar power or something?
cryptoknight
QUOTE (deek @ Feb 21 2008, 02:35 PM) *
Funny, I did the exact same thing last week. It only cost me $20 to print...B&W pages, coil bound, clear vinyl front cover and thick black cardstock back cover. I could have spent a $1 more to get the first page i.e. cover, printed in cover, but didn't really care to.



No that's what I went with... White front and back, with the cover printed in color, contents black and white, coil bound. ... My original attempt had been to have the entire book printed in color....
BlackHat
QUOTE (deek @ Feb 21 2008, 01:41 PM) *
I'm not wanting to nickel and dime it, especially seeing that most of the time runners are in the city and there doesn't need to be any refueling. I'm thinking more of some longer, wilderness treks. I mean, if we really didn't need to worry about this sort of thing, why then even have a 6 hour operating time?

I don't roll too much into lifestyle besides food, shelter and living amenities (e.g. furnishings, clothing, entertainment). It just seems that this was a glaring omission...I mean, we don't even get a recharge time or something? I mean, once that 6 hours is up...is the vehicle just dead if its outside of the city, or can it gimp along with solar power or something?


If its got the SunCell modification it can. Otherwise it plays out just like in real life if you neglect to put fuel in your car. Somebody has to get a ride or walk to a gas station and pick some up and bring it back. I wouldn't worry about the negligible cost of a tank of gas at a time like that, but the trek could be fun.

In any case, before the team leaves town, assume they either fill up, or have been running off of the GridLink and are at full power and gas (especially since most engines are hybrid and use electricity in the city). They now have 6 hours to get back to civilization, or find a fuel-station. The actual cost of gas/power doesn't really come into play (unless they're all living street-level lifestyles... in which case, they're lucky to have car), but the operation time does. Its your call if you want ot send them somewhere where they can't find any gas, so that the operation time causes them to get stuck - but I don't see how the price of gas matters in the least. They can either find it, or they can't.
deek
I guess that is what I will have to do then...is that what most GMs do with ammo as well, basically let the runners have as much as they need, as long as they can find it?

Sorry, I'm being stubborn here, but with the variety of different vehicles, and the half page of fluff on propulsion methods, it just seems like details on fuel is missing. I mean, I don't view fuel any different than bullets, and we have tons of content on ammo...anyways, I guess I will either abstract it and hand-wave to the players or just create my own parameters that make sense...
hobgoblin
different ammo gives different effects, fuel is fuel. and i wonder how many used the optional rules for fuel in rigger3...
MaxHunter
Something interesting with ammo happened in my games. After a while the runners realized how much they were spending on lead and started using normal rounds for everything not life-threatening or too specific.

I translate "r" as a 20% markup and "f" as a 50% markup, also normally availability increases cost by a 10% every 4 point increments. Except when there is a real hurry, then I use the book rules. Many other in-game factors (loyalty, opportunity, etc.) However a Predator clip of APDS rounds is about 150 / 200 Y

As one of the characters said: "It's like shooting them with nuyen"

Cheers!

Max
BlackHat
Bullets are also not a common expense that would fall under one's lifestyle. Filling up the tank occasionally is. The average person doesn't factor in a clip of ammo every week into their lifestyle budget.

It works the other way, too. If the amount of gas they're planning to use up goes above and beyond what normal people plan for, make up a price.
If you team has to go on a cross-country joyride in a gas-hog RV, you could calculate the cost of gas... but you'd basically be pulling the number out of thin air, anyway.

I guess I think of it in real life. I don't even think about the fact that I go through about a tank of gas a week. I just refill it occasionally and move on. However, if I had to drive to California or something (I leave on the other coast) I would certainly have to consider the amount of money I would be burning up in gas. I would come up with some approximation of gas-prices across the country and my miles-per-gallon and estimate that the trip would cost me X. Then I can make the decision about whether or not I still want to go.
Ryu
We never played with fuel rules in SR, in no edition. I´ve also stopped to consider long-term ammo tracking. Only the player with daily automatics training routine for his char pays a bit more lifestyle. With payouts of 20k¥, any player can have any ammo he wants (except grenades, rockets, and special ammo (yet-to-come-up gauss rifle slugs etc). And AV ammo will also have to stay excepted, I want it to be available at special occasions only.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 21 2008, 03:32 PM) *
We never played with fuel rules in SR, in no edition. I´ve also stopped to consider long-term ammo tracking. Only the player with daily automatics training routine for his char pays a bit more lifestyle. With payouts of 20k¥, any player can have any ammo he wants (except grenades, rockets, and special ammo (yet-to-come-up gauss rifle slugs etc). And AV ammo will also have to stay excepted, I want it to be available at special occasions only.



That's a pretty cool idea... do you make them track how much ammo they carry at least? I have to agree that ammo tracking can be a pain.
deek
@BlackHat

Thanks for your insight...yeah, I pretty much am in that same boat...if I really need a gas price, I'll make it up. Granted, I am not thinking this will be a big deal and may not even come up...so, I'm over it:)

Ammo Tracking...it is a pain, that is why the players do it and not me:)
Stahlseele
i have yet to actually run where i need to reload . . okay, i carry at least 3 guns but still *g*
Feshy
QUOTE
I mean, we don't even get a recharge time or something? I mean, once that 6 hours is up...is the vehicle just dead if its outside of the city, or can it gimp along with solar power or something?


If the runners can fix whatever reason was the cause for running out of fuel (unless the character has Incompetence:Drive Ground or the equivalent, I won't pester them about forgetting to stop for fuel) I'd let the vehicle charge up with it's innate solar cells and limp along on the weak part of its hybrid engine until they find civilization. I would guess this would take (plot device) hours, longer if damaged.

Of course, if one of the characters has an alcohol addiction, and the vehicle is multi-fuel capable (most are in 2070) you can convert your fuel woes into addiction penalty modifiers.
Ryu
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Feb 21 2008, 08:43 PM) *
That's a pretty cool idea... do you make them track how much ammo they carry at least? I have to agree that ammo tracking can be a pain.


Yes, they have to track current ammo load on a run. Those with automatic weapons are quite used to reloading, supressive fire and short bursts add up really fast. And any stashes for fast getaways have to be defined. We just wing keeping track of used ammo and repleneshing "standard" ammo. Too much game time spend shopping, to much not-game time spend on logistics rather than spend on char development. (Those who want to RP their fixer connection still go shopping for ammo, still neither ware nor money exchange get recorded on the CS).
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 21 2008, 11:13 AM) *
different ammo gives different effects, fuel is fuel. and i wonder how many used the optional rules for fuel in rigger3...

...ever put diesel in a gas powered vehicle? makes a nice two tonne paperweight.

Characters drive up to a service station in an LH2 FC electric only to find all the pumps say ethanol. Yep, I have.

QUOTE (BlackHat)
Bullets are also not a common expense that would fall under one's lifestyle. Filling up the tank occasionally is. The average person doesn't factor in a clip of ammo every week into their lifestyle budget.

...oh I wouldn't know about that, most of my characters budget weekly for ammo.

Violet's market list:

    2 L soy milk
    Box of Big G Soy-O's
    Sucrose
    Ballpark soy dogs
    3 cans of B&M Boston baked soy beans
    1 bag Tosoytos (nacho flavour)
    24 pack of FizzyPop
    TP
    2 clips of EXEX...

QUOTE (Feshy)
Of course, if one of the characters has an alcohol addiction, and the vehicle is multi-fuel capable (most are in 2070) you can convert your fuel woes into addiction penalty modifiers.

...ah the old Soviet Air Force contingency plan. grinbig.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 22 2008, 06:53 AM) *
i have yet to actually run where i need to reload . . okay, i carry at least 3 guns but still


Shit, I've had single gunfights where people had to reload ... multiple times. And they also carried more than one gun. biggrin.gif
Da9iel
Off the top of my head, how does (Vehicle cost)/1000 nuyen.gif sound for a fill-up cost?
MaxHunter
Agreed with Fortune.

SMGs + supressive fire = quickly spent clips. And I do not want to start talking about the Mossberg CMDT. Let's just say that the dwarf who carries one of the Mossbergs is happy that Arsenal came out so he can develop the 4-burst clip.

IMO the only clips that usually outlast combat are sniper rifle and Predator clips.

If you have spent 10 sniper rounds and you are still in the fight, you should be retiring quietly.
If you have just spent 15 pistol rounds and the target is still standing you should be using a heavier weapon.

Cheers,

Max
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Feb 21 2008, 10:20 PM) *
...ever put diesel in a gas powered vehicle? makes a nice two tonne paperweight.

Characters drive up to a service station in an LH2 FC electric only to find all the pumps say ethanol. Yep, I have.


i wondered when that would show up...
Shrike30
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 21 2008, 01:47 PM) *
Shit, I've had single gunfights where people had to reload ... multiple times. And they also carried more than one gun. biggrin.gif


My character Skate runs through magazines in short order. Carrying a pair of vented TMPs as your primary weapons (and usually alternating between them for 2 long bursts a turn) is a very fast way to run through ammo.
Ryu
I think Stahlseele still plays SR3 (IIRC). That explains a certain lack of automatic weapons fire. In SR4, FA became that much more desireable.

The usual loadout for our combat chars is two extra magazines for the main weapon, one for the personal sidearm. An assault rifle could do with much less ammo if used in SA mode, but why should you? This is not resource-conservation-run. Thats the same as living a low lifestyle while earning 20k¥ per month. (Yes, I´m aware. Rather common decision, lifestyle does not buy ware.)
Fortune
I wasn't even counting automatic fire. I was referring to Predators and Manhunters. biggrin.gif
Fuchs
It also depends how often you say "I empty my clip into him" during a run.
Ryu
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 22 2008, 11:22 AM) *
I wasn't even counting automatic fire. I was referring to Predators and Manhunters. biggrin.gif


eek.gif Not common at all for us. I could see it happen if larger weapons were not available.

QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 22 2008, 11:35 AM) *
It also depends how often you say "I empty my clip into him" during a run.


And that happens more often if you do not get info on your opponents damage without perception actions. One action to gurantee takedown, or one to check the state. GM: He falls to the ground. Player: Dead?. GM: Did not look pretty, do you want to check? Player: Nope, I empty my clip into the bastard. As opposed to GM: He takes 8 more boxes and is dead. Player: Cool, I short-burst his friend.
I´m grateful for players willing to spray a spirit with bullets even if they know they don´t have a chance.
Kyoto Kid
...my Merc Gracie (3rd ed) would run though ammo clips like an athlete goes through bottles of Gatorade™. Considering she usually went full hose, a clip would last her 4 IPs.

The Short One usually winds up reloading because her Warhawks only have 6 shots (have to get that Large Cylinder option).

...and you only thought I had six bullets in each gun...I can count all the way up to eight now.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 22 2008, 12:46 PM) *
And that happens more often if you do not get info on your opponents damage without perception actions. One action to gurantee takedown, or one to check the state. GM: He falls to the ground. Player: Dead?. GM: Did not look pretty, do you want to check? Player: Nope, I empty my clip into the bastard. As opposed to GM: He takes 8 more boxes and is dead. Player: Cool, I short-burst his friend.


Yes. Although in some campaigns, it was changed to "I put a double tap into his head" or "I splatter his brains against the wall" (one too many regenerating critter that got up, and it was "hose them down with autofire, then called shot to the head once they are down" forever after...)

QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 22 2008, 12:46 PM) *
I´m grateful for players willing to spray a spirit with bullets even if they know they don´t have a chance.


One of my players had a character shoot at non-manifested spirits with heavy weapons in her own house until "swiss cheese" could have been used to describe the walls. The mage doing a ritual in the basement was not amused that he had to dodge bullets and splinters as well as the spirits that were attracted to the ritual nyahnyah.gif
Feshy
QUOTE
One of my players had a character shoot at non-manifested spirits with heavy weapons in her own house until "swiss cheese" could have been used to describe the walls. The mage doing a ritual in the basement was not amused that he had to dodge bullets and splinters as well as the spirits that were attracted to the ritual nyahnyah.gif


I love it.

"A fire spirit manifests in front of you"
"I open up with full auto!"
..
..
..
.. (four turns and an empty clip later)
"Wait... did you say manifest, or materialize?"

QUOTE
I wasn't even counting automatic fire. I was referring to Predators and Manhunters.

Well, with Arsenal, those can be full auto now too...
Shrike30
Playing around with the houserule that SA weapons can, as a complex action, make a Wide Burst with a number of rounds fired equal to your applicable weapon skill is another really good way to watch people run through ammo with handguns. High-skill chars blow through a Predator mag in 3 passes...
cx2
Might be worth changing LTA from (all) to (all, aircraft only) though it is sort of implied. Though the idea of VTOL emotitoys is amusing.

"Faraday" in the Faraday cage should probably be capitalised, it is a guy's name after all, but not a huge deal.
Nightwalker450
Is there anything in Arsenal (or BBB if I missed it) on combining Kits/Shops/Facilities. Automotive carrying over into Industrial, or Aeronautics? Just wondering if there was anything on a discount for having multiples.

Also regarding Emotitoys, they come with a Sensor software rating based on the amount you pay. Are Sensor softwares then not limited by the Pilot Rating of the Drone (Rating 3), and as such they also wouldn't count against the number of programs it could run. What type of movement do (mobile) Emotitoys have, I put them as Walker because they seem like little animorph creatures, almost would give them gecko tips as well since it describes them climbing all over a person, but I figure someone can pay for that upgrade.
bofh
Ok, I think I got through the thread without seeing these. Sorry if they're duplicated in the thread and I missed it.

Page 25 - Submachine Gun table - Should be a TZ-118.

Page 49 - Personal Armor should be Personal Armor Suits in the table (missing 'Suits' based on the compiled tables)

Page 49 - Should be +1,200 for the SWAT Helmet in the table (missing '+')

Page 51 - Military-Grade Armor Enhancements table not in description

Page 51 - Helmets and Shields not in description (since they reference the BBB, it may be on purpose).

Page 182 - Military-Grade Armor Enhancements table; one extra paren at Hydraulic Jacks

It would be nice if the COMPILED TABLES actually broke down into the relevant subsections rather than having to page down through the list to find the table smile.gif

Still going through the PDF but thought I'd drop in a few typos I've found so far.

Carl
Nightwalker450
I found this one a few days ago, but don't have my book with me to give actual pages.

But the sniper rifle listed in the index tables "Ares Desert Fox" or something like that, is actually listed as the "Ares Desert Striker" in the weapons section.

I'll get page numbers and proper names when I get a chance.

Edit (Desert Fox and Desert Strike, thanks MaxHunter)
MaxHunter
Ares desert fox and desert strike?
Larme
QUOTE (bofh @ Mar 3 2008, 08:32 AM) *
It would be nice if the COMPILED TABLES actually broke down into the relevant subsections rather than having to page down through the list to find the table smile.gif


I dunno if this works with other versions of Acrobat, but with Acrobat Pro you can add your own bookmarks. I'm not excusing their failure to break them down (they did it in Augmentation, why not here?) but there is a solution available wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
And it would be great if there would be only one ammunition table and one rocket table.
jago668
Just another thing. Not an error really, just odd. On page 31, the Enfield GL-67 has a shock pad providing 1 point of recoil compensation. Yet it fires in SS mode. So not like you are getting recoil from the thing. Now I'm sure a character would appreciate the cushy goodness of not having his shoulder bruised, no real game benefit to it is all. Like I said, just kinda odd.
Aaron
QUOTE (jago668 @ Mar 3 2008, 04:15 PM) *
Just another thing. Not an error really, just odd. On page 31, the Enfield GL-67 has a shock pad providing 1 point of recoil compensation. Yet it fires in SS mode. So not like you are getting recoil from the thing. Now I'm sure a character would appreciate the cushy goodness of not having his shoulder bruised, no real game benefit to it is all. Like I said, just kinda odd.

Yeah, that would only make sense if it was possible to mod a weapon (such as an Enfield GL-67) so that it could have additional fire modes. =i)
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