Just for fun I thought I would post a pic of an average man carrying a low yield gravity bomb. Is he going to use it effectively in combat? No. Can he carry it without superhuman strength? Yes. Now a nuclear gravity bomb which come in at around 500 pounds might be a bit different. But I see nothing suggest the Iron is a nuke.This is without 2070 tech. So in my games I would have no problem with someone (or thing) being able to carry the Iron.

Link

..the Series 5 is a conventional Anti Personnel weapon: 22P(f). Again with no weights given (or other restrictions) it is hard to say just what can loft one.

The Japanese employed 10 m dia. rubberised silk balloons to float bombs (usually 15KG anti personnel bombs) over the US west coast during WWII. Granted, out of about 9,000 only 300 or so made it. Some were duds a couple actually exploded one of them killing a minister’s wife and several children in Bly Oregon.

Now this was using pretty primitive technology compared to SR. So, my question is, could a a medium size drone (say a Stormcloud) be capable of carrying one?

...ohh BTW, Calabim, the link retruns an error when I click on it.

i would not allow it as i think it would need a reinforced weapon mount to attach the bomb to, and the drone just do not have the body to take the mount.

...I haven't looked through the vehicle modification rules in detail yet. Still though, with items such as bombs & missiles some kind of weight factor/capacity requirement should have been included. Would make things a lot easier.

No narcojet? BBB pg.246 under Narcoject description "A common knockout drug, often used with dart guns."

Now I understand theres plenty of other options for stunning, but we have the drug and instructions for use..but nothing other then mouth dart to use it with?

blowgun under exotic ranged weapons, and capsule rounds using dmso?

injection arrows and bolts.

super squirt with dmso.

I didn't really mean that the thing couldn't be moved at all or anything; man-portable was a poor choice of words. I mostly just meant that it'd be such a struggle that attempting to use it as an offensive weapon without the aid of a vehicle would be an exercise in failure. And for what it's worth, old general purpose bombs routinely weighed 500lbs or more (250 pound versions were made but generally found inadequate) and Boeing got all excited a year or two ago because they managed to create a "small diameter" 250 lb bomb that they believe will be effective for urban use (which is a nice way of saying the weapon isn't capable of much collateral damage). Remember also that the thing costs 400¥ and is described as something of an ol' mass produced relic, so I'm not prepared to say the thing is definitely lighter or more effective than quality milspec bombs used today. And I think the key word I've been using has been "use effectively". If some strong humans or a really big troll wants to schlep the thing across the garage that's one thing, but if you think I'm letting even an extremely powerful Air Spirit fly it around and default to Agility for Exotic Weapon: Bombs without some seriously hefty penalties you're crazy.

I hear ya man. It seems to me like something that would be in a book on vehicle rules. I ahve been told to just eyeball it. However as we can see that won't work, and I don't own a Thunderbird to open the truck (or boot for those over the pond) and see how much room is in there. I have also been told that adding cargo rules would require "extensive" rewrites. I think this is BS, and that it can be handled with an errata.



Well I did ask if a human could lift one, but thanks for trying. So I take it no one has a page reference for me as to what item can be lifted and moved by a metahuman. Even an indicator of size would help.

Right. And you asked that question as we were discussing whether someone could use the things as weapons without the use of a vehicle. Honestly your concerns were tertiary in my mind at the moment.

...But those are what were omitted, overlooked, or whatever. The old Man & Machine supplement had dart pistols & rifles and I expected them to be included in Arsenal. Without a delivery system, the drug is pretty pointless as it is an injection/insinuation vector so it won't work in grenades. Some may say use the Super Squirt, but that now requires a separate skill in Exotic Weapons (In 3rd ed it was Pistols skill). The dart weapons also required only the normal pistol or rifle skill.

That's more or less already covered by blades, the hand crossbow and injection bolts as well as injection arrows. There's also the blowgun, but that unfortunately happens to be about the most useless thing imaginable unless you're in the amazon hunting small paracritters.

...but that means yet a separate skill. I just don't see why air powered dart guns were not included. It is not as if they were some exotic experimental tech as they have them in RL today.

I guess I'd be more concerned about that if we didn't have capsule rounds and contact vector toxins. As it is I can hardly get worked up about it.

hmm, im sitting here reading the weapon mount section, and i wonder what would be the correct read of fire arcs.

the turret say a 90 degrees vertical arc, would that mean it could potentially shoot at something directly above the vehicle?

if so that makes a weapon on a flexible mount quite nasty as it can shoot up, down, left and right of forward direction...

or is it that it can travel 90 degrees from max down to max up, as in 45 degrees from horizontal in either direction?

...yeah, but there are times you really need to be discrete. The old Dart pistol had a good concealability (no reason why it couldn't be made of polymers), was relatively quiet since it used compressed air, and there was no explosive charge to be picked up by chem sniffers. Handy backup to have when you needed to check your Predator IV at the door.


...the hand crossbow is still somewhat bulky and obvious compared to the original narcojet pistol. I can't see someone slipping an HC into the inner pocket of a longcoat or suit jacket (well maybe a Troll could get away with it).

Then perhaps you should let someone who is paying attention answer my questions. I am also going to assume that your reply was only to tell me that my questions where insignificant to you, and did not include any info on item size and weight, that that info is not out there anywhere.

Kyoto I am with ya on the narco jet as well. It seems like this supplement was really half assed and left out alot info. That this was not put in after talking about it in the RAW it is odd.

A general purpose (Iron, Dumb, gravity, etc) bomb without the aircraft is just an extremely large demo charge with an unusually shaped casing.

Most of the time, a GP bomb is 50% explosive, 50% cast iron casing by weight. The casing lets it penetrate buildings and gives it brutal (fist sized) fragmentation.

Pretty much. The info's not out there. I didn't say your question was insignificant, I said it wasn't really my concern at the moment because I was pre-occupied with another subject. Plus, I thought you were being rather sarcastic with the "Well, thanks for trying" and constant bolding. There's no excuse for that presumption on my part, which I realized earlier but by then you had already replied so there wasn't really any point in editing the post. I guess I just spend too much time on forums where people never say things like that with a straight face. I'm more used to cannibalism jokes and dikoted elfbian pornomancer references than people being polite. I find it very offputting. The politeness, I mean. I've gotten used to dikoted pornomancer references and the like thanks to Hyzmarca.

Anyway, as far as KK's concern goes, I think it's really more of a problem with the way exotic weapons and skills are handled in SR4 in general than any real lack of practical weapons. The idea that you can learn to fire rocket launchers, mortars and heavy machine guns with the same skill but everything even slightly off the beaten path requires it's own skill seems less and less defensible with each passing supplement, especially considering how expensive they are relative to attributes.

Not at all man. Thanks for trying meant thanks for trying to give me a quick and speedy response to my question even though it did no cover specifically what I was looking for. The bolding was to show what the specifics of my question were. I am new to these forums so didn't know that bolding was taken with sarcasm. In other gaming forums I am a member of it is used to show emphases.

Yeah, like I said, it was sheer presumption on my part. Sorry about that. Sometimes I forget that contrary to popular legend not everyone on the internet is being antagonistic.

sadly bolding is often used to bring focus to a part at the expense of the whole...

and when people have been exposed to that way of using it one to many times, they react without thinking, and post from the hip...

...Whipstitch, your response concerning Exotic Weapons makes perfect sense. It is odd that, as you mention, three totally different types of weapons - MMG, Mortar, And Rocket Launcher use the same skill even though their configrurations are radically distinct from one another. Particularly the mortar which in a sense is an indirect light ballistic artillery weapon.

Using that rationale, then there should be no reason why the SuperSsquirt and GyroJet shouldn't be classified with pistols. I'd be most happy if my characters could pack an SS with a Narco/DMSO cocktail without having to spend precious BPs (and later Karma) on just one particular weapon. I of course also think Polearms/Staffs should be treated as a weapon class as well (as they were in previous editions) instead of individual exotic types.

I've basically boiled down the number of combat skills in my games to a shadow of the original total; you end up with people using a wider selection of weapons in some cases but they still tend towards a few select favorites thanks to Specializations, theme and expense anyway. I understand why the developers went the route they did, but can't really bring myself to agree with it; at the end of the day weaponry skills are really only good for combat. Beyond that the only thing that really changes things much is whether you can fight at close range, long range or both. Once you have those two issues covered just about everything else is just details and won't really change your role in the group anymore. I mean, really, does it matter all that much if the samurai could just as easily have used a croquet mallet or meat cleaver when he's already busy beating you to death with a claw hammer? The only time I think my li'l half-baked as few combat skills as possible scheme trips up is if my players end up in a situation where they need to improvise a weapon and they're of course good at practically everything they stumble across. On the other hand, I consider that a small trade off because I find that somewhat less ridiculous than say, an unarmed crackshot pistol wielding adept losing her weapon, escaping, and then not bothering to pick up their defeated captor's Ares Alpha because they couldn't shoot the thing worth a damn anyway. Coming up with a perfect scheme for handling such things is one of the many jobs that makes me glad I'm not actually a dev.

MMG's alongside launched explosive weapons is a bit out there yes.

but grenade launchers and mortars both have to deal with gravity and stuff when it comes to aiming. and to a lesser degree i guess with rockets and missiles to...

...well there used to be the Launch Weapons skill which would cover just that, GLs, Mortars and ML/RL. If anything, the Gyro Jet could have just as easily come under this classification instead of "Special" Weapons as it too fired a rocket powered projectile. Meanwhile MGs (including HV Machineguns), Miniguns, Assault Cannons and Artillery came under the Heavy Weapons classification.

Made perfect sense to me.

A quick scan through this thread didn't seem to indicate that this one had been posted yet. I noticed that the Rocket Boosters Vehicle Modification cannot be found in the tables of the Gear and Vehicle Mods chapter. It should be located on the table on p. 141 between the Road Strip Ejector and the Smoke Projector, but they're missing. Interestingly, they are located in the tables at the back of the book. Just in case someone else gets to this post before finding them back there, here's the stats:

Rocket Boosters
Slots: 5
Threshold: 36
Tools: Facility
Cost: Body x 5000
Avail: 16F

Edit: Actually, the Smoke Projector in the table on p. 141 seems to have taken the place of the Rocket Boosters. They're listed at the bottom of that table and in the table on p. 142. In other words, the Smoke Projector listing on p. 141 should be removed and the Rocket Boosters put in its place.

Actually, staffs are used with Clubs and spears with Blades.

As I'm reading through the vehicles chapter I've noticed several things that've struck me as odd:
1) Several vehicles have IFMU models in their "similar models" list (in one case misspelled as "IMFU"). The problem: IFMU doesn't exist anymore in 2070! In 2065 the corp was disbanded and its assets split between the majority shareholders (Proteus, FBV and S-K).
This information can be found in the AGS bonus-chapter of the German System Failure and is available at Dumpshock Wiki.
So, it's either an oversight or one of the successor companies continues to use the IFMU brand.

2) German names. Always fun! As a similar model to the Piper Brat the "Messerschmidt Kinder" is listed. Is that plane really meant to be named "children"? Because that's what Kinder means in English (sing. Kind).

Let's assume that a company bought the brand name and continues to sell vehicles with that name. And not that someone at Catalyst glitched his roll.




Or it's named after a designer/ manager/ crack-junkie

hey, the original is named "brat"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiled_brat

still, it makes for a "cheap" CAS platform ones its got a light autocannon and two hail barrage rocket launchers

That's why I love this forum: everyday I learn something new (useless?).

Hey. Some knowledge is dangerous. The more you know about the appropriateness of fictional names for fictional planes, the less room you have in your head for something that could get you into trouble.

*This message sponsored by the DHS*

I'm well aware of that.
My point is that "Kinder" is plural which makes a rather odd name...

In general, whenever vehicles have German names in Arsenal IMO they weren't chosen well - not that they're wrong or nonsense but often a general term is taken and turned into a model name which leads to odd/silly results, e.g. BuMoNa Rettungswagen ("ambulance vehicle"), Saeder-Krupp Lieferdrone-4 [sic!] (spelling should be Lieferdrohne, "delivery drone-4"), Saeder-Krupp Heimdrone [sic!] (spelling should be Heimdrohne, "home drone") - it's like naming a car "Car" or a tv "TV"...

But SR has always had its share of creative use of German - space stations come to mind: Sky Forge sounds nice in English but "Himmelsschmiede" is a quite long and awkward to pronounce. No native speaker would chose such a name. And it's even worse with Proteus' "Treffpunkt Raumhafen" - meeting point space port? Who invented that name? It sounds like a bar or tourist attraction at a space port - but naming the whole station like that?
It's the same problem as with the vehicles above: it's not a name but a general term - Raumhafen, space port, a place were spaceships are launched...

And don't get me started about the "Der Nachtmachen" policlub - for 15 years I've been trying to grasp what that's supposed to mean!

well it would not be the first time, from what i understand, hollywood and friends plays fast and loose with eastern european names more often then not.

and is there not a car that had a name that was a swear word in southern europe or something?

You're probably thinking of the Chevy Nova. Link

It's an urban legend, but it's still an awfully entertaining one.

and is nice comment on trying to use a world wide trademark when one cant agree on a single language...

hell, one could suspect that the SK products have those names in UCAS only

...hmmm...Marathon M7/C-45 HyLift (bulk cargo/passenger submach jet) Marathon M-10/C-50 MegaLift (very large bulk cargo submach jet), Marathon M-12 Slipsteream (Shockwave ignition Passsenger SO), Marathon M-11 Sprint (High Speed Executive Transport), Marathon M-14 Precision (SSTO Spaceplane), Marathon AC-45 Jock (heavy ground support aircraft), Marathon KC-45 PitStop (airborne refueler), Marathon/BAe EC-45B Perseus (formerly "Nimrod" [damn Ares, stealing my name got to call the legal dept. in on that] airborne EW command post/sub hunter)...

...yeah, I guess your right...

Brought to you by the good folks at The Olympus Group Consortium

Only the ones who are truly enlightened know it.

The obvious intention was "The Nightmakers," silly as that sounds.

Whoever tried to translate it failed miserable.

Here are two of my favorite "false friends" (German/English):
The mist = der Nebel - but - der Mist = the dung (now think about marketing the Rolls Royce Grey Mist in Germany...)
The gift = das Geschenk - but - das Gift = the poison

I... knew that. Yeah, sure. I knew. *hidesinshame*

I think he means the Mitsubishi Pajero. Apparently "Pajero" means "wanker" in portuguese.

Concerning translations: I stopped giving a damn. Apparently in the information age, writers of all kind still fail to ask a native speaker for advice concerning foreign names. The obscure German names you merkins are able to come up with are no different than bizarre name translations from japanese where something that sounds completely correct might end up being named "Super Happy Fun Time Tentacle Rape King Love" in English.
In German on the other hand, people - especially in marketing are constantly naming everything in english for no reason. The term "Denglish" ("Deutsch" + "English") was coined for this.

btw, take a look at this:
http://www.urbantool.com/

what its about may surprise you

There doesn't appear to be any ammo priced for several of the ranged weapons, exotic and otherwise. The gun cane and shooting bracer seem to use normal bullets, and I presume the energy weapons (pain inducer, sonic rifle) would use the same battery packs as the lasers and railguns. But there's no entry or pricing guidelines for net gun rounds (or price differences for normal and large thrown nets, if you're supposed to use those for ammo), blowgun needles, slingshot-appropriate ammo, and super squirt clips (or info on how much of the component chems are needed make up one shot). Though, admittedly, the latter is technically missing from the core book, the expanded chemtech section in Arsenal would have been a good place to put them, too - especially if they'd re-introduced the Cascade, dartguns, ELD-AR, and other ranged chem-delivery systems.

..the Toyota Previa was also a wonderful name, especially to those who know medical terminology

Sorry for the late answer but here:

I will houserule that the gauss rifle is also halving the armor before the AP modifier like his big brother.
It will justify its price/availability (more than the fluff and cool factor anyway) and make it quite priceworthy.

Another thing I find strange is that in SR2/3, the barrett was using special APDS ammunitions with the same availability as the gun.
So you couldn't make it more powerful, which was a good thing in my opinion.
This is gonna be houseruled too...

Or maybe not... Now I'm kinda annoyed by the Desert Strike potential damage with APDS/AV rounds


In fact 4th edition always bothered with the lack of upper scaling for the heavy weapons.
LMGs do the same damage as Assault Rifles and Assault Cannon are pretty weak.
They seemed far more powerful in 2/3th edition.

Maybe adding something like +1DV to all machine guns and +2D to assault cannons (gauss rifle included) would be more realistic.

Of course it increases the lethality of heavy weapons but damn, those are war equipment and my players knows better than to fool around with them...

When I became an EMT, trust me... Previa got a laugh.

Krakjen: SR4 blew a big opportunity when they introduced AP... and promptly had assault rifles underperform a large-caliber handgun. Don't boost DV on large weapons to make them more powerful... try adding significantly to their AP first

Another question came up yesterday on a German board: Discussing the question, wether you could choose to still inflict stun damage with bone density augmentation/bone lacing. From my point of view this is just an issue of not hitting so freakin' hard but then Rotbart hinted at the description of the Sai (p. 39) which states explicitly that the special thing about this weapon's specialty is that one may choose which damage track he wants to fill.
He derived from that description that you generally can't choose to do stun damage in melee combat by RAW, even though common sense suggests that at least in unarmed combat or with blunt weapons you could aim to knock your opponent out rather than kill him.
Since I didn't come across any other passages concerning this in the rules, this case is rather unclear to me now.

After hearing Narcoject ™ dart guns were left out of Arsenal while this type of weapon was mentioned already in bbb, I had a thought. Could you replace Yamaha Pulsars ammo with chem darts. They seem to have all right components, propellant, capacitor/chem reservoir and needle. Doable?