ah yes, jeet kune do . . the one superior fighting style . . ok, aside from jackie chans ^^

re fortune:

so? the point AH is trying to make is that as with more styles, one have more ways to hit someone, and therefor more ways to make use of openings in the opponents defenses.

i have yet to hear about a marital art that can block any other martial art with equal ease.

also, being damn good in a controlled setting like a boxing ring means little in a fight on the street. there nobody will play by the rules.

only real problem with the abstract way SR deals with hand to hand combat is the supposed time a round should take, and that one can get multiple phases within said round...

Of course, all the things you describe are less a matter of style and more a matter of attributes and (in the case of SR) augmentations.

Here's something y'all might appreciate. Scan down to the dialog for p.18.

Holyfield might headbutt you in the ring though. Always gotta look out for that.

How about we get away from 'boxing' then, and choose Jeet Kune Do instead (you made me do it! ). This 'style' is supposed to be, in a way, a blend of stuff from many 'styles', but be that as it may for the moment.

Now, all other factors being equal, ie. Attributes, Skill level, Augmentation, presence or absence of Magic, whatever else other than the Martial Arts Quality is equal.

So, we have this dude. Let's call him Bruce, who trains and trains and dedicates himself to becoming the perfect fighting machine. He masters every single aspect of fighting, and is willing to spend as much time and energy (Karma) in doing so.

Let's say Bruce masters (totally maxes out) his 'style' in an arbitrary ten years, but is perfectly willing to go on learning and training and adapting and learning and training and ...

Now we've got Bob, who goes to Bruce's Jeet 'r' Neet academy for ten years of personal training, learning everything there is to know from the dude himself, and all the other peers there. Now, after those ten years, Bob goes across the street to David's Kung Fu Too school or Steven's Wing Nut Chung dojo, where in the space of a month he can become the better than Bruce.

When it comes down to it, I think either Bruce should be able to keep training (paying Karma) to improve his art in the same way as Bob, without switching 'styles', or the various 'styles' should not stack at all, but merely be flavor (as it really should be in an abstract combat system like SR4).

nanomaintenance system on pg 138 is listed twice in the table..

Why would he become better "in the space of a month"? You're spending a quarter of the points for a quarter of the bonuses so I would think it'd take a quarter of the time of "mastering" a style. It's not just "dabbling"; were I to extrapolate from your completely arbitrary decade, I'd say it's spending two and a half years in an alternate style searching for complimentary techniques, which isn't something to sneeze at. Maybe you haven't expended the same amount of effort as a "master" has in another style, but you're certainly well on your way.

The whole JKD thing in this case is really funny, because Bruce used to happily tell big guys they might want to learn from someone who knows more wrestling and tall guys like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar that they may want to learn kick boxing because with his reach he could nail someone from across the room. His foundation was in wushu but he was a really big fan of cherry picking whatever suited you. Anyway, I'm not really sure where else we could go with this. The whole thing's a fluff concern that can be argued back and forth ad nauseum.

On p. 105, under 'Vehicle Weapons and Recoil', the example that supposedly suggests the need for a house-rule (a Body 2 drone mounting an LMG) isn't possible, by RAW. A vehicle has to be at least Body 3 (roughly human-sized) to support a weapon mount (even for a hold-out pistol). And it seems that almost all the drones that can legitimately be armed are designed in such a way that they'd naturally counteract any excess recoil/climb by virtue of their configuration, mass, or greater strength.

I also want to extend kudos to whoever it was that came up with the idea of using the segway and drone wheelchair as a way to keep your ragdoll teammates mobile while they're working. It seems so obvious in retrospect that it's funny to think it hadn't come up over the first three editions (well, the scooter gets a pass, since it's a fairly recent invention).

Ah, okay, nm then; I already agreed with that idea long ago, what with my whole "You can just bullshit your way to multiple bonuses regardless since this is all fluff anyway" speech and the agreement with the Martial arts: More Boxing quality.

It's the style switching in midfight crap that I took issue with.

I've already seen it, and it doesn't really change my opinion much on this one. It costs 5bp/10karma per benefit and potentially eats up your 35 bp cap on qualities so I simply don't think limiting the players is a good choice since the bonuses are limited by their unarmed skill anyway. Over the infinite karma horizon it could be an issue, but I'm not particularly worried about that.

Some of the weapon mods should be revised, as restrictions imposed to them are undue compared to other equipment:

Camera Upgrade: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1'
Skinlink: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1'

Technically, those modifications don't concern the weapon, but the sub-components of the smartgun system.
(And even every RFID or mirco sensor camera can be upgraded with skinlink and vision enhancements without limits)

Camoflage Ghillie Shroud: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1'
Extended Clip: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1'

External stuff does not consume internal space of any kind - technically, this should be listed as accessory.

Oh, and an internal Smartgun system is either an accessory or a modification.

I didn't see this brought up in skimming the thread, but is there any reason to buy a thunderstike guass cannon?
The Barret 121 is better than it in every concievable way (except maybe range, I didn't compare the ranges on sniper rifles v. assault cannons).

Actually, it's limited by the relevant skill, which is not always Unarmed Combat.

coolness points. duh!

The missing sentence about it cutting any non-smart armor in half befor applying AP - like it's big brother?

BTW: the Cyclops bike is a real mean machine if equipped with Smart Tires and Engine Customization to compensate for them - +5 Handling and climbing stairs.

PS: ..now the forum's green, too...

If I ever get to play again rather than GM I'll probably end up using the Thunderstruck rather than the Barrett simply due to the fact that I'd rather learn the Heavy Weapon skill than Longarms. Shotguns and Sniper Rifles are nice and all, but Heavy Heapons gives you the ability to use grenade launchers, rocket launchers, LMGs, mortars and apparently an assault cannon that's nearly as good as the most powerful sniper rifle in the game (the Barrett IS better, cheaper, and easier to find, but they can both fill the same role well enough for my purposes). Neither skill is great for concealment anyway, so odds are you'll likely take Pistols or Automatics as a companion skill for weapons specialists/samurai regardless. Which, incidentally, is exactly why I eliminated the longarms group and redistributed everything into three skills and crammed them all into a single skill group at my table.

Now that would justify the difference in...well, everything.

*scribbles down houserule*

Metahuman Body: Is that damage YOUR Body Attribute or the Body Attribute of the metahuman you have picked up and are swinging, or is it combined? Why is it unarmed combat that is the skill? I would think it would be either thrown or clubs, if not exotic weapon(metahuman body)? And, what if it is not improvised, but, instead, you have a dwarf with horns and cyberspurs out as he is thrown into a bunch of guys? And why is Cain not on here complaining that they did not speciffy the rules for that because otherwise would require a GM ruling, and GMs are too stupid and/or untrustworthy to make fair rulings?

The Body of the metahuman you are swinging wildly about.



Probably because under normal situations, hitting something with any part of the body is considered an Unarmed attack (even if weapons like brass knucles or hardliner gloves or steel-toed boots are involved). I can't think of another reason ... I would have made it a Club attack (typically doing Stun damage) if it were up to me.



It really isn't a precise enough attack to ensure that those specific parts of the dwarf do any particular damage over and above the sum of all his other parts. Really, I think it's more than adequate in an abstract combat system. Sure there might be the rare occasion where a cyberzombie is picked up and swung around by a troll, then it might be an idea to house rule the DV in those particular cases.

Because Cain likes to argue and this time around, he'll just get a lot of people agreeing with him which is boring.

Okay, maybe not exactly that GM's are too stupid or untrustworthy to make rulings, but unlike the core book, Augmentation and Street Magic, there's actually quite a lot of "the Gamesmaster decides" in this book and it's not all in areas of common sense, instead requiring specialist knowledge that a rambunctious player may dispute (sorry, I just like saying 'rambunctious player,' it's fun). E.g. what is effected by an EMP grenade, operation time of vehicles, what constitutes "too much time in direct sunlight" in scorching conditions, etc.

The Ares Desert Strike is listed as Ares Desert Fox in the Compiled Tables.

...I feel the same way about one of my old faves the FN AAL GyroJet. In 3rd ed it really rocked - 12M std rounds, APDS and AV for the Plus rounds and there were also Seeker Heads.

For the price now, you are much better off getting a Ruger Super Warhawk and loading it with EXEX (7DV -3AP). Neither weapon can be silenced so that isn't even an option worth worring about (well the Warhawk can for a whopping 2,500 ). Though I do like the idea of a Cermic Component level 3 Warhawk with the Increased Cylinder option.

KK: "Ha! and you thought I only had 6 bullets in each..."

Also a couple misnomers on the vehicle pics.

Besides the obvious CityMaster instead of Roadmaster...

...The Poltava being labelled as the Vista (which is the City Bus on the page previous). I looked all over for a Vista Speedboat in the text until I discovered the error.
...The Lone Star Honda 3240 is misspelled as "Hondo"
...The Docwagon SRT Ambulance has the label "Guardian" (which is the Police motorcycle).

I imagine that the individuals who originally created the rule intended it to apply to characters using the throw maneuver on one metahuman and the throw's target landing on another metahuman. No one imagined this guy (thanks Squinky).

While the Warhawk can be tweaked to be more powerful in some aspects, the FN-AAL does reload with "clips", is adapted to fire underwater (with a damage bonus, no less!), and can take the same mods as the Super Warhawk. It also doesn't need to be modified to fire in Semiautomatic.

...for revolvers there are speed loaders, just have a couple of em in an ammo pouch loaded and ready to go. The underwater capability is a small benefit (have yet to fire a weapon under water in all the time I've played). Also since the projectile is a rocket round there is no way it can be silenced. Unless your are in a heavy covert ops SAS type of campaign The Super Warhawk is still superior for the price (at 1/4th the cost, you can have four of them all pre leaded giving you 24 total shots).

I just think it should have been a bit more powerful, say 7P since the Super Warhawk in 3rd was 10M which converted to a 6P, especially considering you also need "Exotic Weapons" skill to use it.

...ohh, and BTW, what happened to dart guns (remember the old Narcojet?)?

I don't know. Stats for wielding a metahuman body have been on previous editions (where they have fallen under the club category).

It was always Unarmed, at least it was in SR3.

Really? I could have sworn it fell under the Improvised Clubs rule. Hmmmm. Damn senility!

hmm, does SR4 settle the gyro debate for riggers on motorcycles?

another one, how are one to bolt missiles to figher aircrafts or helicopters?

are one to just strap on as many as one can afford?

that turns the piper brat into one silly little close support platform...

...I'm wondering if you can use an air spirit to drop Series 5 Iron Bombs on people.

hmm, now thats an idea. talk about upscaling the old "grenade carrier" trick
hmm, did sota63 have iron bomb stats, or is this the first version of SR that have them?

Air Spirits can't lift for shit. Iron bombs aren't exactly known for being lightweight and man portable.

So that is why the lifting limits are so low. The designers must have been thinking 2 books ahead!

"Guys, we gotta nerf the lifting rules so players can't summon spirits to drop the Series 5 Iron Bomb!"

heh, do not help much given that things have no weight listing these days

People have actually done this (strapping rockets and machineguns to a cesna and throwing bombs out the door.)

When you consider that bombs and other vehicle mounted weapons are generally discussed under the assumption they're going to be dropped from planes or mounted to turrets I think it's safe to assume that an Air Spirit (weaker than the weakest trolls unless Force 7+) aren't really going to be able to use one effectively.

heh, thanks. that reminds me about a exercise i read about where a carrier group was defeated using "patrol boats" and cesnas.

my little experiment with the piper brat turned out interesting.

at first i thought bolting on the max amount of armor would make it impervious to AA weapons, but i found a notice that when it comes to vehicles, one use the modified armor as a check to see if the attack bounce off.

so even with 20 points of vehicle armor, 2-3 good hits with a sparrow hawk would send the birdie to the ground.

but that is if they can hit it, 10 points of ecm and some lock-on countermeasures should make that a nice task.

as for armament i went for a heavy autocannon and 4 outlaw block 4, 4 block 5, and 4 sparrow hawks for self defense.

but the silly thing here is that i could have gone for 10 of each as basically there is no upper limit for what this bird can carry.

hell, if i want to go insane, i can go with a 3 digit load of iron bombs...

carpet bombing in a small package?

edit:

i did a rethink and now suspect that for each launch weapon one need a weapon mount.

this makes the piper brat less fearsome (can only take about 3 reinforced mounts, 1 i allocated to the gun, the other two to block 5 outlaws as they are the most flexible) but its still a CAS on the cheap.

one reason for this rethink is that the torpedo launcher is a addon to a weapon mount, and it lists no capacity so i would guess one torpedo pr launcher equiped mount.

still, that makes the eagle a strange entry as it only lists a single weapon mount...

all in all, this is one area that was confusing in SR3, and i cant say they have cleaned it up that much in SR4...

So does this mean that the average human can not lift one? Or Troll? Keep in mind I am looking for a page reference not someones opinion.

Sure. Page 123.



Now, this IS an iron aka gravity bomb we're talking about here, so it's hardly what you'd call a precision weapon; as a GM I likely could be convinced that a powerful enough Air Spirit could fly one up into the air and default to Agility in order to approximate the Exotic Weapons: Bomb skill and drop the thing on someone. That said, an Air Spirit powerful enough to pull off a trick like that with any real effectiveness would likely be so powerful that the iron bomb would be the least of my worries, since the thing could also likely armwrestle a sirrush and make a good showing. You can probably roll it around with enough work or do other things with it if you have the right equipment, but at that point you're starting to deal with having the equivalent of vehicles/drones assisting you again.