Due to another thread I didn't want to disrupt further, I decided to open a dedicated one.
Personally, I enjoy Shadowrun and it's "D6 system." I also enjoy D&D 3.0 (I never got 3.5 'cause I'm poor). I like them for different reasons. I like D&D/D20 for the simplicity and ease of play, as well as the genericity (is that a word?).
Shadowrun has a solid background and good support for it's source material.
D20 has several different sets of source material, some good, some bad and some plain average. The choice to buy and use remains yours.
Shadowrun has mucho flexibility in character generation that advance slowly.
D20 has easy to understand classes that start out not as flexible, but built for the job and allowing for some style and advance with noticable results quickly.
If D20 went toe to toe with Shadowrun using just the core system, I'd have to say shadowrun wins. D20's strength is in the open game licence. This guarantees continuous support for the product, but on a buyer beware basis.
All in all, I see no problem with liking both.
Full Version: D20 Shadowrun
Simplicity my arse. I like the tables in the SR3 main manual a hella more than the D&D manuals.
But, my 2
is...NO. NO. FOR LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY NUUUUUUUUUUUU...
But, my 2
is...NO. NO. FOR LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY NUUUUUUUUUUUU...
Shadowrun inherently works against the style of any level-based system; a shadowrun character should not have a series of epiphanies, suddenly being able to spend of bunch of skillpoints but ONLY after those ephiphanies. I've never seen a d20 game that wasn't level-based.
Class-wise, I don't think there'd be much of a problem. Shadowrun's soft-class based anyhow.
I can't think of any d20 games that don't use hit points - and I find that vaguely bothersome. Staging of damage/grades of success could be worked into the amount over the TN you hit on your rolls - like Legend of the 5 Rings, but with the 'raises' L5R has ocurring after the fact.
I dislike the nature of a flat 1-20 scale of probability. I like the sliding arc shadowrun's die system presents. It more accurately represents the differences between 'average' and 'professional' (let's say 2 and 4 dice, respectively) and the relatively small difference between master and grandmaster (let's say 8 and 10 dice, respectively).
I like feats. I like feats a lot. d20's got that, at least.
I like Shadowrun better. The system is tighter, more accurate, less prone to random results, and has dice pools. I love by dice pools. You'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Class-wise, I don't think there'd be much of a problem. Shadowrun's soft-class based anyhow.
I can't think of any d20 games that don't use hit points - and I find that vaguely bothersome. Staging of damage/grades of success could be worked into the amount over the TN you hit on your rolls - like Legend of the 5 Rings, but with the 'raises' L5R has ocurring after the fact.
I dislike the nature of a flat 1-20 scale of probability. I like the sliding arc shadowrun's die system presents. It more accurately represents the differences between 'average' and 'professional' (let's say 2 and 4 dice, respectively) and the relatively small difference between master and grandmaster (let's say 8 and 10 dice, respectively).
I like feats. I like feats a lot. d20's got that, at least.
I like Shadowrun better. The system is tighter, more accurate, less prone to random results, and has dice pools. I love by dice pools. You'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Well I feel basically the same way. However, the rediculous complexity of shadowrun rules really works against it IMO. It feels like you can not abritrate as much in Shadowrun like you can in D&D. Also I like d12, d20, d8, d10, d4 dice. 
Makes you feel like your playing something other than Yatzee!
Makes you feel like your playing something other than Yatzee!
The big flaw with the "one system to rule them all" attitude is that the game mechanics do affect the atmosphere of the game. For example, if you're a moderately experienced shadowrunner, and there's a punk pointing an Ares Predator at you, do you feel threatened? Now, if you're a 6th level street samurai, and you've got 56 hp, and there's a 1st level punk pointing a gun that does 1d8 damage at you, do you feel that same level of threat?
Game mechanics designed to allow heroic fighters to charge fearlessly into hordes of orcs and slaughter them by the dozens are not well-suited to a grittier game where, no matter how experienced you are, any punk with a gun and a decent skill stands a chance of capping you. This is not to say that game mechanics designed to allow for heroic fighters slaughtering orcs by the dozens are bad... just that they're not appropriate for the game I want to play. They're good rules for D&D, but Shadowrun is not - and, IMAO, should not be - just D&D with guns.
Game mechanics designed to allow heroic fighters to charge fearlessly into hordes of orcs and slaughter them by the dozens are not well-suited to a grittier game where, no matter how experienced you are, any punk with a gun and a decent skill stands a chance of capping you. This is not to say that game mechanics designed to allow for heroic fighters slaughtering orcs by the dozens are bad... just that they're not appropriate for the game I want to play. They're good rules for D&D, but Shadowrun is not - and, IMAO, should not be - just D&D with guns.
But Yahtzee is fun!
Hi,
I have tried to make a shadowrun d20 and it works fine for us *takes cover*. While both d20 and shadowrun are great systems, switching to a new system would have meant great effort in learning with minimum effect, as we already have enough work to do at school (a year before graduation and the school does the graduation process of three years in two).
It, in my opinion, does not matter whether you fire a Ares Predator at a corp guard, roll 10 dice, deal 9S, or point a Pred at a guard, roll one die, get a result of 24, and deal 11 points of damage. The point is that you fire a gun at a guard, its not the dice that count.
The reason why we left D&D for shadowrun d20 is the shadowrun background, its atmosphere and the genre, not the truckloads of dice, the dice pools and the modifier tables that take up page after page.
I have tried to make a shadowrun d20 and it works fine for us *takes cover*. While both d20 and shadowrun are great systems, switching to a new system would have meant great effort in learning with minimum effect, as we already have enough work to do at school (a year before graduation and the school does the graduation process of three years in two).
It, in my opinion, does not matter whether you fire a Ares Predator at a corp guard, roll 10 dice, deal 9S, or point a Pred at a guard, roll one die, get a result of 24, and deal 11 points of damage. The point is that you fire a gun at a guard, its not the dice that count.
The reason why we left D&D for shadowrun d20 is the shadowrun background, its atmosphere and the genre, not the truckloads of dice, the dice pools and the modifier tables that take up page after page.
| QUOTE |
| For example, if you're a moderately experienced shadowrunner, and there's a punk pointing an Ares Predator at you, do you feel threatened? |
If you have body 6, combat pool 8, karma pool 3 and ballistic armor 4, do you feel threatened?
| QUOTE |
| Now, if you're a 6th level street samurai, and you've got 56 hp, and there's a 1st level punk pointing a gun that does 1d8 damage at you, do you feel that same level of threat? |
You got a point there, which is why
a) We reduce the rate of level gain. After half a year of gaming every one to two weeks, my group is 2nd to 3rd level.
and b) guns deal more damage. An Ares Predator deals 2d6 points of damage, starting characters range from 7 (most non-combat oriented characters like deckers or riggers) to 14 (troll characters with focus on fighting) hit points.
Burst mode increases the damage by one die, so my players, ranging from 15 to 30 hit points by now, immediately take cover if two security guards with machine pistols (3d6 damage) appear.
tbd
| QUOTE (ting-bu-dong) | ||
If you have body 6, combat pool 8, karma pool 3 and ballistic armor 4, do you feel threatened? |
If he's packing EX Ex and I know it, yes.
If I don't know what he's packing, maybe.
If I know he's packing regular, there's still a possibility of a botch. Then all that saves you from Insta-Splat™ is that lovely karma you've got.
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| Now, if you're a 6th level street samurai, and you've got 56 hp, and there's a 1st level punk pointing a gun that does 1d8 damage at you, do you feel that same level of threat? |
No, because that level 1 street punk is going to have only 1 in his pistols skill and 3 or 4 in his combat pool. He's more liable to be a threat to himself. I'll wait for him to shoot himself, heck, I'll shoot him to put him out of his misery.
You are using an inaccurate analogy. A more appropriate one would be to use a D20 Starwars example. For example, you are a level 6 Jedi Guardian, a level 1 Soldier is pointing his blaster at you. Then I would feel as threatened as an experienced runner against a street punk.
Check out the book 'Cybernet' by Mongoose Publishing. It's a d20 cyberpunk game.. Combine that with some other d20 rules (races and magic), and you've got a d20 Shadowrun.
Not that I'd play it.
Classes, levels, and hit points do NOT belong in a Shadowrun game.
Not that I'd play it.
Classes, levels, and hit points do NOT belong in a Shadowrun game.
No.becuase classes, levels, hit points, damage, skills, D20's,feats, rules,magic!
Classes,wile shadowrun has things like classes,it doesn't have them.Classes in D20 are pigon holes to place characters.The fighter,could never enjoy singing.The mage could never like swords,or whatever.By the way,if your good with a sword,you are just about as good with staff,but not always the other way around.
Level,and classes. Ugly,stuff.See, you have class levels,then total level.Now, you go up levels,based on a chart,and your total levels.This has 2 huge flaws.One, most classes has rules,and bonus tricks going up to the max amount levels you can take.So, if you multi class,ever you can't get those goodies.multi-classing makes it harder for you too level in past classes. A level 10 mage/7 fighter needs the same exp to level up in mage as a 17 mage.The power gain from level 10 to 11,is not as big as 17 to 18. Added to the fact that there are finite over all levels,means this mage's need to learn swords,not only made making her magical studies harder,it means there are some spells,she can never to learn.
Shadowrun,has problems like this,but not nearly the scale.Take skills,learning how drive doesn't make it harder to learn how to shot a gun,and being a B&E guy,doesn't make you more deadly verus tied up people.
The feats,are unbalanced,and often do "stunts",and nothing more,others are small amounts of skill points,and others are I kill,everyone in the room.
The magic,I mean I thought shadowrun magic was mathatical.(In a bad way),but in d20,you get x spells, of y level.You get them, z times in q time frame.Each spell, is as dry as and boring as Al Gore sleeping.
Classes,wile shadowrun has things like classes,it doesn't have them.Classes in D20 are pigon holes to place characters.The fighter,could never enjoy singing.The mage could never like swords,or whatever.By the way,if your good with a sword,you are just about as good with staff,but not always the other way around.
Level,and classes. Ugly,stuff.See, you have class levels,then total level.Now, you go up levels,based on a chart,and your total levels.This has 2 huge flaws.One, most classes has rules,and bonus tricks going up to the max amount levels you can take.So, if you multi class,ever you can't get those goodies.multi-classing makes it harder for you too level in past classes. A level 10 mage/7 fighter needs the same exp to level up in mage as a 17 mage.The power gain from level 10 to 11,is not as big as 17 to 18. Added to the fact that there are finite over all levels,means this mage's need to learn swords,not only made making her magical studies harder,it means there are some spells,she can never to learn.
Shadowrun,has problems like this,but not nearly the scale.Take skills,learning how drive doesn't make it harder to learn how to shot a gun,and being a B&E guy,doesn't make you more deadly verus tied up people.
The feats,are unbalanced,and often do "stunts",and nothing more,others are small amounts of skill points,and others are I kill,everyone in the room.
The magic,I mean I thought shadowrun magic was mathatical.(In a bad way),but in d20,you get x spells, of y level.You get them, z times in q time frame.Each spell, is as dry as and boring as Al Gore sleeping.
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| Classes,wile shadowrun has things like classes,it doesn't have them.Classes in D20 are pigon holes to place characters.The fighter,could never enjoy singing.The mage could never like swords,or whatever.By the way,if your good with a sword,you are just about as good with staff,but not always the other way around. Level,and classes. Ugly,stuff.See, you have class levels,then total level.Now, you go up levels,based on a chart,and your total levels.This has 2 huge flaws.One, most classes has rules,and bonus tricks going up to the max amount levels you can take.So, if you multi class,ever you can't get those goodies.multi-classing makes it harder for you too level in past classes. A level 10 mage/7 fighter needs the same exp to level up in mage as a 17 mage.The power gain from level 10 to 11,is not as big as 17 to 18. Added to the fact that there are finite over all levels,means this mage's need to learn swords,not only made making her magical studies harder,it means there are some spells,she can never to learn. Shadowrun,has problems like this,but not nearly the scale.Take skills,learning how drive doesn't make it harder to learn how to shot a gun,and being a B&E guy,doesn't make you more deadly verus tied up people. |
Hi,
@Classes: You right about classes, but you can also play d20 without classes (like i mentioned in my first post). Concerning classes, the fantasy genre is based on stereotypes, which is why a wizard would not be good with a sword and a fighter would use no sorcery.
If you want to mix stereotypes or play a different character that has elements of more than one stereotype in it, that's what multiclassing is for. In short, you have more than one class and when you gain another level, you decide in which stereotype you become better.
Concerning your multiclassing example: Imagine three shadowrunners get 50 karma for some runs, a street samurai and thwo mages.
The street samurai invests that karma into combat skills, attributes and other skills that help him kill stuff, which is his profession.
The first wizard initiated a couple of times, learns new spells, gets an ally spirit and so on. He spends his karma on magic-related issues, getting better at his profession.
The second wizard learns some new spells but then decides he wants to become better with the gun and learn how to drive. He spends a large amount of his karma on combat and drive skills.
The third example shows exactly what you complained about with your multiclassing example of a level 10 mage/ 7 fighter. The second mage will be not bad at casting magic, but not as good as the first one, who concentrated his whole karma in improving his magic capabilities. But although he has some combat ability, he is not as good at it as the street samurai because he focused on combat.
Same case with a mage 10/fighter 7 compared to a mage 17 or a fighter 17. So where is the flaw in d20 that is not in shadowrun?
tbd
Two things:
First: As Open Source material, you can download 3.5 from WotC for free. It lacks all the neat pictures and stuff, but you have all the necessary content.
Second: I really despise the d20 levels and whatnot, but you can make the game much more lethal by limiting hitpoints to (Str + Con)/2.
It's amazing how much more dangerous goblin archers become when you've only got 12 hit points and some change.
-Siege
First: As Open Source material, you can download 3.5 from WotC for free. It lacks all the neat pictures and stuff, but you have all the necessary content.
Second: I really despise the d20 levels and whatnot, but you can make the game much more lethal by limiting hitpoints to (Str + Con)/2.
It's amazing how much more dangerous goblin archers become when you've only got 12 hit points and some change.
-Siege
1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.
2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.
3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.
4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.
5. The background of a game is not in any way hindered or helped by the game mechanics. All of the wonderful background material SR has would still be wonderful background material if the game system changed.
6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.
7. D20 systems allow characters to gain experience outside of combat. Again, please remember this in the future.
8. Stat + Skill systems are better than Skill-Only systems. Why? A character in SR with a 20 Quickness is better off never learning how to fire a pistol than he would be if he took the time to learn the basics. Even a character with a 3 Quickness is better off avoiding Pistols skill until he can get it at 2+ points.
9. SR's dice pool system is a horrible, horrible, mechanic that does not adequately reflect the attributes that apply to the skills in use. Going to Stat + Skill cures the ills inherent in the dice pool system. Before anyone whines about being able to fight defensively or offensively, there are feat and combat options that allow you to do the same under d20, even to varying degrees.
10. SR does not handle ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting well. D20 does just fine with both. SR does not handle automatic fire well. D20 does just fine with it.
11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.
12. SR's system is very complex and not very representative. There are people that have been playing SR for years that still don't interpret the rules correctly and there are plenty of vague issues out there that have never been solved officially (just look around this board). This complexity doesn't exactly draw new players in by droves. Anytime you're dealing with small dice pools (under 10-15) in a successes-based system, problems result from botches and a very restrictive cap on how well a person can possibly do on any given roll. When the dice are 6-sided, these problems magnify due to the limited number of possibilities. Critical failures are less common in d20 (need a natural 1 and a failed save). Using the d20 mechanic listed in #3 above, even a chump thug can kill a character with a couple good rolls. You'll never see a chump thug kill (or even harm) a shadowrunner by shooting at him under SR3, unless the GM (or the player) really screws the PC in question.
I'd be very interested in a d20 version of SR. In fact, I'd probably steal the resulting SR spellcasting mechanic for use in D&D games (I never liked the spell memorizing thing). I think it'd be a great move for the game.
2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.
3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.
4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.
5. The background of a game is not in any way hindered or helped by the game mechanics. All of the wonderful background material SR has would still be wonderful background material if the game system changed.
6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.
7. D20 systems allow characters to gain experience outside of combat. Again, please remember this in the future.
8. Stat + Skill systems are better than Skill-Only systems. Why? A character in SR with a 20 Quickness is better off never learning how to fire a pistol than he would be if he took the time to learn the basics. Even a character with a 3 Quickness is better off avoiding Pistols skill until he can get it at 2+ points.
9. SR's dice pool system is a horrible, horrible, mechanic that does not adequately reflect the attributes that apply to the skills in use. Going to Stat + Skill cures the ills inherent in the dice pool system. Before anyone whines about being able to fight defensively or offensively, there are feat and combat options that allow you to do the same under d20, even to varying degrees.
10. SR does not handle ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting well. D20 does just fine with both. SR does not handle automatic fire well. D20 does just fine with it.
11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.
12. SR's system is very complex and not very representative. There are people that have been playing SR for years that still don't interpret the rules correctly and there are plenty of vague issues out there that have never been solved officially (just look around this board). This complexity doesn't exactly draw new players in by droves. Anytime you're dealing with small dice pools (under 10-15) in a successes-based system, problems result from botches and a very restrictive cap on how well a person can possibly do on any given roll. When the dice are 6-sided, these problems magnify due to the limited number of possibilities. Critical failures are less common in d20 (need a natural 1 and a failed save). Using the d20 mechanic listed in #3 above, even a chump thug can kill a character with a couple good rolls. You'll never see a chump thug kill (or even harm) a shadowrunner by shooting at him under SR3, unless the GM (or the player) really screws the PC in question.
I'd be very interested in a d20 version of SR. In fact, I'd probably steal the resulting SR spellcasting mechanic for use in D&D games (I never liked the spell memorizing thing). I think it'd be a great move for the game.
playing games, your arguments would be more convincing if you used actual evidence (they'd also be more convincing if you used the spacebar more often, and maybe the spellchecker). you say "feats are unbalancing", but never explain--why are they unbalancing? what do they unbalance?
as for magic--maybe you could offer an alternative? you say shadowrun is "mathatical" which i assume would be bad if it were a real word, but D&D magic is worse because it has q's and z's and x's. so, how should magic work?
bw, i have to disagree with some of your statements. a point of Str, in d20, is worth more than a point of any other stat in most cases. most of the rolls that any character makes will be for attack and damage, which Str affects. i also disagree about autofire--i don't think either system handles it accurately.
your #12 argument suffers from insanity. even with the vitality points mechanic, a chump thug is much less likely to kill someone in d20 than they are in SR. SR is much more random, and randomness--as the guys at WotC are fond of reminding us--increases the odds for the underdog.
as for magic--maybe you could offer an alternative? you say shadowrun is "mathatical" which i assume would be bad if it were a real word, but D&D magic is worse because it has q's and z's and x's. so, how should magic work?
bw, i have to disagree with some of your statements. a point of Str, in d20, is worth more than a point of any other stat in most cases. most of the rolls that any character makes will be for attack and damage, which Str affects. i also disagree about autofire--i don't think either system handles it accurately.
your #12 argument suffers from insanity. even with the vitality points mechanic, a chump thug is much less likely to kill someone in d20 than they are in SR. SR is much more random, and randomness--as the guys at WotC are fond of reminding us--increases the odds for the underdog.
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| Now, if you're a 6th level street samurai, and you've got 56 hp, and there's a 1st level punk pointing a gun that does 1d8 damage at you, do you feel that same level of threat? |
How is this much different than a 40 karma pool runner with several million nuyen worth of equipment and resources from many runs and highly advanced skills and attributes from the earned karma getting threatened by a brand spanking new runner straight from character creation?
-karma
it's different because a 40 kp runner would be, in d20 terms, epic. the now, if you're talking the diff between a 40 karma runner and a staring-level char...
Sorry, meant 40 karma. Fingers were typing faster than brain was operating.
But still, my point is the same. Any experienced character in nearly any game can expect to thrash a newly created one. It's the nature of character development.
But still, my point is the same. Any experienced character in nearly any game can expect to thrash a newly created one. It's the nature of character development.
you've got a point, but 40 karma isn't really enough of a difference to matter. and, as a counterpoint, i've seen a 9th-level rogue take on and beat a 13th-level fighter, on ground that favored the fighter (flat, open).
I used to love AD&D 2nd ed. But then, that game was "DIABLO"-ized in 3.0 and made so even more in 3.5...
I like SR3 the way it is and I will stop playing it if they do something assinine like convert it to the d20 system. Just my 2 yen....
I like SR3 the way it is and I will stop playing it if they do something assinine like convert it to the d20 system. Just my 2 yen....
bah, 2nd ed sucked. you want to talk about a game that straightjacketed you in its class system! and the saving throws--what were those? those made no sense. and don't get me started on THAC0!
Likewise. I don't dislike the d20 system. I enjoy it for its simplicity.. But I only play it when I want heroic type of games..
I like more lethal systems for my real games.
I like more lethal systems for my real games.
i sorta agree, in that the d20 system needs modification to be lethal the way SR is. but it can be modified to be as lethal/realistic, or moreso, than SR--i'm a big fan of Spycraft's rules, myself.
Actually, there is a difference:
A 20th level mage is inherently tougher than a 1st level fighter in terms of hit points and saving throws.
A 100 point karma experienced character is still more or less human in the same vein as a newbie character.
The spells/cyberware/magic items become relatively immaterial for purposes of power escalation.
If we maintain this line of thought, the 20th level character can still laugh at a dagger or a goblin's arrow while the first level character should be rightly afraid of impending doom.
Oh gawd, I've jumped into the "why I despise the d20 system" rant.
-Siege
A 20th level mage is inherently tougher than a 1st level fighter in terms of hit points and saving throws.
A 100 point karma experienced character is still more or less human in the same vein as a newbie character.
The spells/cyberware/magic items become relatively immaterial for purposes of power escalation.
If we maintain this line of thought, the 20th level character can still laugh at a dagger or a goblin's arrow while the first level character should be rightly afraid of impending doom.
Oh gawd, I've jumped into the "why I despise the d20 system" rant.
-Siege
yes, the base d20 system is heroic fantasy. got that. however, like i said, there are numerous alternate rulesets and campaign settings that are as lethal or more lethal than SR. Spycraft, to reuse my example--and Spycraft has better armor rules, too.
Spells, you get x spells of y level.You get those spells,and nothing else.You can't say,cast bunch of small spells,or a few large spells.Shadowrun,you cast spells based on how much your willing to put into it.IE you can cast, force one spells,all day,but only a few high force spells.
Let's look at feats.Some of them,act as small amounts of extra skills.Some act as giving you armies(leadership).Some act as giving you whole new skills(wilderness lore).Some give you +1 to hit,or damage with one weapon(weapon focus...).Some give extra attacks.(cleave)
1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.
2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.
3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.
4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.
But,these problem points are almost always the default.Your anwsers to these sore spots,are minorities.
6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.
Yes,and at the same time you have even less reason to make rounded characters.As in D20, each skill point,both cost the same,and improves your chances at the same rate.5%.
Now,you want wide number ranges,with a little work you can change shadowrun into a D10 system.You only need to fix karma,and change a few numbers,most of witch can be done by times all numbers by 1.6 and rounding down.
11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.
Counter point,neither is in d20.Let's take d20 stats,the thing you have such love for.Some of them are progressive,others aren't.Your con gives you points to skills,and also gives you hit points per-level.Not all the sats have the same amount of skills,and I highly doubt you prove me that the skill spread is remotely balanced.
Let's look at feats.Some of them,act as small amounts of extra skills.Some act as giving you armies(leadership).Some act as giving you whole new skills(wilderness lore).Some give you +1 to hit,or damage with one weapon(weapon focus...).Some give extra attacks.(cleave)
1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.
2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.
3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.
4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.
But,these problem points are almost always the default.Your anwsers to these sore spots,are minorities.
6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.
Yes,and at the same time you have even less reason to make rounded characters.As in D20, each skill point,both cost the same,and improves your chances at the same rate.5%.
Now,you want wide number ranges,with a little work you can change shadowrun into a D10 system.You only need to fix karma,and change a few numbers,most of witch can be done by times all numbers by 1.6 and rounding down.
11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.
Counter point,neither is in d20.Let's take d20 stats,the thing you have such love for.Some of them are progressive,others aren't.Your con gives you points to skills,and also gives you hit points per-level.Not all the sats have the same amount of skills,and I highly doubt you prove me that the skill spread is remotely balanced.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| yes, the base d20 system is heroic fantasy. got that. however, like i said, there are numerous alternate rulesets and campaign settings that are as lethal or more lethal than SR. Spycraft, to reuse my example--and Spycraft has better armor rules, too. |
I'm not a big fan of SR's mechanical system either, when you get right down to it.
-Siege
you still haven't answered the question of how feats are unbalancing. what do they do that unbalances the game?
actually, you're mistaken about the default rules--most games with a 'modern' setting use vitality points and other alternate rules to make the system more lethal.
why do you have less reason to make rounded characters? is the fact that each point changes your percent chance by 5% change the fact that if you dump all your points into Climb and Jump, you're going to be a social martian?
what's "unbalanced" about the skill spread? you keep using that word, and i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means.
and for god's sake, put some freakin' spaces after your punctuation. that's what spaces are for.
actually, you're mistaken about the default rules--most games with a 'modern' setting use vitality points and other alternate rules to make the system more lethal.
why do you have less reason to make rounded characters? is the fact that each point changes your percent chance by 5% change the fact that if you dump all your points into Climb and Jump, you're going to be a social martian?
what's "unbalanced" about the skill spread? you keep using that word, and i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means.
and for god's sake, put some freakin' spaces after your punctuation. that's what spaces are for.
For me, I don't like or dislike the class system. It has its merits, chiefly in the fact that a GM should be able to guage the level of challenge for his players much more easily. In SR, I do think that any gutter-punk can take out a corporate goon, given the right circumstances and in that way, it's a lot different in terms of setting up runs/adventures.
BTW, if you crack open some 1st ed AD&D books, and find the "to hit" tables you'll realize why Thac0 was a pretty impressive step forward in terms of playability. Unfortunately, some people can only add and not subtract. Looking back on it, it did kind of thin the herd so to speak... oh well.
P.S. For a brief period I did run a Mighty Fortress campaign. If anybody has the green books they'll know what I'm talking about. The rules for excessive damage due to firearms I thought were quite workable and at times not very survivable at all, which I do think is a stark contrast to the direction d20 modern or future oriented campaigns went, from what I can tell.
BTW, if you crack open some 1st ed AD&D books, and find the "to hit" tables you'll realize why Thac0 was a pretty impressive step forward in terms of playability. Unfortunately, some people can only add and not subtract. Looking back on it, it did kind of thin the herd so to speak... oh well.
P.S. For a brief period I did run a Mighty Fortress campaign. If anybody has the green books they'll know what I'm talking about. The rules for excessive damage due to firearms I thought were quite workable and at times not very survivable at all, which I do think is a stark contrast to the direction d20 modern or future oriented campaigns went, from what I can tell.
I will say this...under the OGL, Mutants and MAsterminds is probably the best game out there.
It's level based, but incremental instead of XP-based (kinda like karma). There are no classes. Character creation is incredibly flexible. Probably the best super-hero system ever, and easily adaptable to nearly any other setting.
It's level based, but incremental instead of XP-based (kinda like karma). There are no classes. Character creation is incredibly flexible. Probably the best super-hero system ever, and easily adaptable to nearly any other setting.
Nevermind... AH got it out while I was typing and being slow about it.
| QUOTE (bwdemon) |
| 1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future. |
The best adapations of the d20 system I have seen keep maybe 50% of the system the same and change the rest. Not even in the most house ruled games I have seen have there been changes this drastic.
| QUOTE |
| 5. The background of a game is not in any way hindered or helped by the game mechanics. All of the wonderful background material SR has would still be wonderful background material if the game system changed. |
Not necessarily true. The background creates an atmosphere, and the game system should mesh with that atmosphere. As many people have said, Shadowrun is gritty and needs a gritty game system, which D20 is not.
| QUOTE |
| 7. D20 systems allow characters to gain experience outside of combat. Again, please remember this in the future. |
So does every other major game system.
| QUOTE |
| 8. Stat + Skill systems are better than Skill-Only systems. Why? A character in SR with a 20 Quickness is better off never learning how to fire a pistol than he would be if he took the time to learn the basics. Even a character with a 3 Quickness is better off avoiding Pistols skill until he can get it at 2+ points. |
A seven attriibute is worse than a 3 skill, because of the +4 defaulting (I have verified this mathmatetically.
| QUOTE |
| 11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another. |
Not true. There is no way to ensure that all feats are of equal value., since they all have the same cost. In a point based system (say...Shadowrun?) it would be possible to give different valued feats different costs.
On the other hand, if I could transport one thing from d20 to Shadowrun, it would be feats. There are many things a character might want to be able to do that wouldn't be covered by a skill or edge.
| QUOTE |
| 12. SR's system is very complex and not very representative. There are people that have been playing SR for years that still don't interpret the rules correctly and there are plenty of vague issues out there that have never been solved officially (just look around this board). |
The same could be said of any game system.
| QUOTE |
| This complexity doesn't exactly draw new players in by droves. Anytime you're dealing with small dice pools (under 10-15) in a successes-based system, problems result from botches and a very restrictive cap on how well a person can possibly do on any given roll. When the dice are 6-sided, these problems magnify due to the limited number of possibilities. Critical failures are less common in d20 (need a natural 1 and a failed save). |
Even with only six dice, the chance of botching is 6^6, or nearly one in 50,000. You talk of rolling 15 dice, that's 6^15 or 1 in 470184984576. Not going to happen, chummer.
Comare this to D20, where even if you fail your save only on a one, your chance of stuffing up is 1 in 400.
If anything, Shadowrun doesn't allow enough of a chance to stuff up. In 2 years of playing, I have never botched, and only seen 2 botches (one with 1 die and one with 3 dice )
| QUOTE |
| Using the d20 mechanic listed in #3 above, even a chump thug can kill a character with a couple good rolls. You'll never see a chump thug kill (or even harm) a shadowrunner by shooting at him under SR3, unless the GM (or the player) really screws the PC in question. |
Surprise situation, no combat pool. Punk has 4 dice and a decent pistol. The average human (not troll or orc) is looking at 2 medium wounds, one after the other. Things just go downhill from there. The dice can screw a PC just as easily as the DM can.
IMHO D20 SR is a bad idea as it encourages combat-oriented games. The mechanics I dislike the most are the level/experience system, the base attack bonus (and how goes up with your level) and hit-points (and how they go up with your level). The class system also encourages stereotypical characters and penalises flexibility.
My reasons?
XP/levels: Firstly we have the fact that awarding XP for kills (as almost every single D20 game I have seen does) encourages killing. Secondly we have the fact that characters instantly become more powerful, and cannot be truly good at something without being a high level.
Fixes: Award XP for whole runs (awarding 0XP for individual kills) and allow characters to spend XP independently
Level-based Base attack bonus: For some reason it is impossible to become better at anything without becoming better at hitting stuff with the soggy end of your opponent's own limbs. My character has certainly not practiced this, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Have a skill based combat system that you can put up if you want to
HP: Again my character has not been practicing dodging/taking bullets during the soggy-end-of-limb-combat training he has not had, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Use a different damage system
Classes: The class system gives characters set bonuses and abilities, which is OK to some extent as you can multi-class to get the abilities that you want, but there are both basic (IE: not being able to cast the next level of spells, having 1 less caster level) and XP penalties applied to multi-classing. Very often, taking a class will give you abilities that you don't want, especially if the ability you want is not a 1st level one.
Fixes: Don't use a class-based system
Now I'm not saying that the SR system is perfect but why should we switch to a different system which is so fundamentally flawed?
@mfb: SPYCRAFT: Deadly? ROTFL!
I'm sorry, but in the single spycraft campaign I saw played (it was being run next to the game I was playing in): people held iron-man competitions to see who could Spacewalk without space-suits for the longest. This was following the competitions where they saw who could leap off a skyscraper the most times and survive, and how instead of buying parachutes the group simply lept from planes as then they couldn't be shot at as they cam in to land or as they escaped the entangled parachute. They also discovered that the most deadly weapon was the Fire-Extinguisher+Piton combo: Hit someone with a fire extinguisher and they become helpless so you can follow-up with a climbing piton for a coup-de-gras.
My reasons?
XP/levels: Firstly we have the fact that awarding XP for kills (as almost every single D20 game I have seen does) encourages killing. Secondly we have the fact that characters instantly become more powerful, and cannot be truly good at something without being a high level.
Fixes: Award XP for whole runs (awarding 0XP for individual kills) and allow characters to spend XP independently
Level-based Base attack bonus: For some reason it is impossible to become better at anything without becoming better at hitting stuff with the soggy end of your opponent's own limbs. My character has certainly not practiced this, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Have a skill based combat system that you can put up if you want to
HP: Again my character has not been practicing dodging/taking bullets during the soggy-end-of-limb-combat training he has not had, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Use a different damage system
Classes: The class system gives characters set bonuses and abilities, which is OK to some extent as you can multi-class to get the abilities that you want, but there are both basic (IE: not being able to cast the next level of spells, having 1 less caster level) and XP penalties applied to multi-classing. Very often, taking a class will give you abilities that you don't want, especially if the ability you want is not a 1st level one.
Fixes: Don't use a class-based system
Now I'm not saying that the SR system is perfect but why should we switch to a different system which is so fundamentally flawed?
@mfb: SPYCRAFT: Deadly? ROTFL!
I'm sorry, but in the single spycraft campaign I saw played (it was being run next to the game I was playing in): people held iron-man competitions to see who could Spacewalk without space-suits for the longest. This was following the competitions where they saw who could leap off a skyscraper the most times and survive, and how instead of buying parachutes the group simply lept from planes as then they couldn't be shot at as they cam in to land or as they escaped the entangled parachute. They also discovered that the most deadly weapon was the Fire-Extinguisher+Piton combo: Hit someone with a fire extinguisher and they become helpless so you can follow-up with a climbing piton for a coup-de-gras.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you still haven't answered the question of how feats are unbalancing. what do they do that unbalances the game? actually, you're mistaken about the default rules--most games with a 'modern' setting use vitality points and other alternate rules to make the system more lethal. why do you have less reason to make rounded characters? is the fact that each point changes your percent chance by 5% change the fact that if you dump all your points into Climb and Jump, you're going to be a social martian? what's "unbalanced" about the skill spread? you keep using that word, and i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means. and for god's sake, put some freakin' spaces after your punctuation. that's what spaces are for. |
unbalanced,to say that one is more than the the other.
Some stats,give you more skills bonuses,than others. Each point of intelligence in fact gives you 25% of a feat feat each level.You know all those feat that give you +2 a skill.
Let's look at stats ,from level 20.All at 20.
Str+5 to damage,hitting, and some skills/feats
Con+100 hit points,+5 saves,and to some skills/feats.
Dex+5 AC,saves,some feats.
Int+100 skill points,+5 to some skills,and feats.
Wis+5saves,skills and feats.
Chr+5 to some skills,and feats.
IIRC, the skill points from your int,make a bigger impact on dice rolls,than your chr bonus,and still leave you with at least 25 skill points to do what you want.( more likely 50) The only advantage to the chr is that it can push you over number limit,that is based on your level.But seeing as stats in D20,are basically, -/+5 to skill.Now one stat is basically only that,and has few skill relating to it,and another stat can very well give you more skill bonuses as a side effect.How can you say that is balanced?
*sigh* you gain XP for defeating foes. if the bad guys run away because you Intimidated them to hell and back, you get the XP. if you snuck around them, you get the XP. if you waded in and slaughtered them, you get the XP. if you paid them 200gp to sod off, you get the XP.
in most games--SR, D&D--involve combat to a heavy degree. how realistic is it for a shaman to spend gobs of karma on initiation, spells, ally spirits, etc., and never get better at combat?
and the single Spycraft game you saw played isn't exactly iron-clad evidence.
playing games, you're not taking into account the fact that different classes emphasize different attributes. yeah, Str is good--but if i'm a rogue, i'd rather have Dex. if i'm a Paladin, Cha is pretty important because it modifies nearly everything i do. if i'm a wizard, who cares about Str? it's all about the Int.
what you're talking about is variety. variety is a good thing.
in most games--SR, D&D--involve combat to a heavy degree. how realistic is it for a shaman to spend gobs of karma on initiation, spells, ally spirits, etc., and never get better at combat?
and the single Spycraft game you saw played isn't exactly iron-clad evidence.
playing games, you're not taking into account the fact that different classes emphasize different attributes. yeah, Str is good--but if i'm a rogue, i'd rather have Dex. if i'm a Paladin, Cha is pretty important because it modifies nearly everything i do. if i'm a wizard, who cares about Str? it's all about the Int.
what you're talking about is variety. variety is a good thing.
MFB, I was talking about D20.Not D&D.You can't eat your cake,and have it too.
If you defend D20,as not being D&D.You shouldn't use D&D to defend D20.
If you defend D20,as not being D&D.You shouldn't use D&D to defend D20.
| QUOTE (bwdemon) |
| You'll never see a chump thug kill (or even harm) a shadowrunner by shooting at him under SR3, unless the GM (or the player) really screws the PC in question. |
...
You've played Shadowrun, right?
sure i can, playing games. see, all the other d20 games have character types (whether class-based or not) that emphasize different ability scores, too.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| sure i can, playing games. see, all the other d20 games have character types (whether class-based or not) that emphasize different ability scores. |
Character types aren't needed for d20,just as levels aren't.And even with character types in the mix, there are other character types that use other stats for just about as many reasons.
character types--like "i'm a fast guy who uses two swords," "i'm a friendly spellcaster", "i'm a detective"--are integral to gaming, period. if you don't have a character concept, i'm not sure what you're doing at the table.
and the fact that different characters emphasize different stats is my entire point--for character A, Cha might not be important; for character B, it might be everything.
and the fact that different characters emphasize different stats is my entire point--for character A, Cha might not be important; for character B, it might be everything.
But you pointed out a paladin Cha's saving grace.
And wile character types are in everygame, on some level not all are classes.Not every breaking and entering guy is good at back stabbing,every duel sword welder is good in the woods and is racist.
You confuse classes,for character types.So,when you used character type,in the context of character class,I did as well.
In shadowrun what does it take to be a decker?basically,some skills and hardware, this take karma,money and time.This doesn't inharitly make it harder for you to learn to be a face.Yes you will behind in points compared to pure faces or pure deckers,but it still costs the same amount of karma to raise computer skill,for the face/decker as it does for the decker.In the class system of D20, it would cost the face/decker more exp for each level of decker,than the decker.admittedly some classes get the same power,and ticker tape each level,others don't. In my first case it is rather clear(the fighter/mage).The mage being a back loaded class,heavily dependant on class levels.This fighter mage is getting less mojo for his exp than a pure mage.
Oh,and what about shadowrun mages and cyberware.True,becoming a cyber shaman does mean you will pay more karma raise your magic up to the same level as the pure shaman.But there isn't a finite amount of karma you can gain,there is a finite amount of levels, so threoreticly you can gain as much magic,if not more magic with your cyber shaman,over the pure one.In D20, you get a finite amount levels.So basically you would have to make characters in shadowrun have a limit to how much karma they can get,too get the real same effects.
And wile character types are in everygame, on some level not all are classes.Not every breaking and entering guy is good at back stabbing,every duel sword welder is good in the woods and is racist.
You confuse classes,for character types.So,when you used character type,in the context of character class,I did as well.
In shadowrun what does it take to be a decker?basically,some skills and hardware, this take karma,money and time.This doesn't inharitly make it harder for you to learn to be a face.Yes you will behind in points compared to pure faces or pure deckers,but it still costs the same amount of karma to raise computer skill,for the face/decker as it does for the decker.In the class system of D20, it would cost the face/decker more exp for each level of decker,than the decker.admittedly some classes get the same power,and ticker tape each level,others don't. In my first case it is rather clear(the fighter/mage).The mage being a back loaded class,heavily dependant on class levels.This fighter mage is getting less mojo for his exp than a pure mage.
Oh,and what about shadowrun mages and cyberware.True,becoming a cyber shaman does mean you will pay more karma raise your magic up to the same level as the pure shaman.But there isn't a finite amount of karma you can gain,there is a finite amount of levels, so threoreticly you can gain as much magic,if not more magic with your cyber shaman,over the pure one.In D20, you get a finite amount levels.So basically you would have to make characters in shadowrun have a limit to how much karma they can get,too get the real same effects.
| QUOTE |
| Even with only six dice, the chance of botching is 6^6, or nearly one in 50,000. You talk of rolling 15 dice, that's 6^15 or 1 in 470184984576. Not going to happen, chummer. Comare this to D20, where even if you fail your save only on a one, your chance of stuffing up is 1 in 400. If anything, Shadowrun doesn't allow enough of a chance to stuff up. In 2 years of playing, I have never botched, and only seen 2 botches (one with 1 die and one with 3 dice ) |
Lemmie preface by saying I'm not good at math. In fact, I suck at math. I'm a writer and an cultural studies guy - math is just boring for me.
However - on to the statistics! You say it won't happen? It's unlikely, but it can happen. Example.
I was running a Tribe 8 game (A Dream Pod 9 Game, and one of the best games nobody's ever played) and I was having a showdown between some PCs and this ass-nasty Z'bri (basically a Horror). Now, a 'professional' skill is 2 dice, and a 'practiced professional' skill is 3 dice. One of the PCs wanted to blast him with magic, and rolled his magic skill (Synthesis, it's called) of 2. Basically in Tribe 8 you take the highest die (they're d6s) and add your stat to the result. All 1s is a botch, and every 6 past the firsts adds an additional +1 to the total result of the roll. I.E. 6, 6, 6 would be a total of 8 if your stat bonus was zero.
Well, ol' Naka gets an 8 on his synthesis roll. Pretty damn good, I'd say. So my Z'bri, with his 6 dice and stat of +4 says, 'Ha! Resistance time!' Botches. Straight out. I blow through emergency dice (spare XP, used like 2nd edition karma - 1 point per extra die) to get five extra dice. Botches on all of those as well.
I couldn't believe my eyes. It's hands down the worst set of rolls for an enemy I've ever seen.
So what could I do? The Z'bri got shot with a nuclear spell and exploded.
Maybe I'm just wrong but... doesn't the standard rule about botches stipulates that to actually botch you need to have 1s for half or more of the total of dices you roll ( no matter is you've got successes with the other dices ) ? That means that if you've got a skill at 1, 2 or 3, you botch really often. My mage character has conjuring(3) and I will NOT try to conjure anything stronger than force 3 ( or 4 if I really have too, feel lucky, and have some trained back-up with me ! ) for that reason. Botches in that shadowrun system happen fairly often and if they don't in your games, well, either you're just really lucky, the characters have no skill below 4 or you don't apply the rules the same way I do ( or I'm just very unlucky, a possibility I will not discard ) !
Just a question, if I may ask, I've playied Dnd 3rd ed ( but not 3.5 ) and one of the things ( albeit a minor one ) that bugged me out was that a character whose HPs were dangerously low can use skills, fight and use magic with the same efficiency as if he was not hurt. Again, maybe it's just me, but that isn't realistic at all. If I'm close to unconsciousness because of a wound or because of a sickness, I probably won't be able to do what I can do when I'm in perfect shape. Is the flaw ( IMHO it is clearly one ! ) still unresolved in the D20 version of shadowrun ?
I never liked class-based system, mostly because I've got a fondness for making rather unusual characters and I find class-based system to rigid ( and, again, in my humble opinion, primitive is a way ). By "primitive" I mean that they're a very good way to show someone what role-playing games are, and to help him flesh out a character and guide him with the character's progression. I've got some year of experience playing RPGs and I feel that I don't need a game system to tell me which skill my character needs...
I don't like the idea of spells per day. Even in Dnd, I hated it. Spell memorization is a chore best avoided. ( yes, of course I did select today that one particular spell I don't take usually ! If I wrote that down somewhere... ? Well, I thought I told you ! If you don't remember that's not *my* fault, is it ?) But that is just a personnal opinion not based on other facts than personal experience
Another thing I've noticed is that the inherent complexity of the shadowrun system makes it harder to munchkin it out ( unless, of course, the player is quite dedicated ). It's not that hard to pick good cybernetic for a sammie, but it took me quite a while to understand just how all the drone-related, decking-related, otaku abilities, ECM and ECCM rules work. I don't think that I master them well enough to do any better than a 'good' character... so forget about munchkin ! and I definitely do fall into the 'dedicated player' category. However, it wasn't long before I figured out how to make a pretty damn strong character for DnD... is it just me ?
Just a question, if I may ask, I've playied Dnd 3rd ed ( but not 3.5 ) and one of the things ( albeit a minor one ) that bugged me out was that a character whose HPs were dangerously low can use skills, fight and use magic with the same efficiency as if he was not hurt. Again, maybe it's just me, but that isn't realistic at all. If I'm close to unconsciousness because of a wound or because of a sickness, I probably won't be able to do what I can do when I'm in perfect shape. Is the flaw ( IMHO it is clearly one ! ) still unresolved in the D20 version of shadowrun ?
I never liked class-based system, mostly because I've got a fondness for making rather unusual characters and I find class-based system to rigid ( and, again, in my humble opinion, primitive is a way ). By "primitive" I mean that they're a very good way to show someone what role-playing games are, and to help him flesh out a character and guide him with the character's progression. I've got some year of experience playing RPGs and I feel that I don't need a game system to tell me which skill my character needs...
I don't like the idea of spells per day. Even in Dnd, I hated it. Spell memorization is a chore best avoided. ( yes, of course I did select today that one particular spell I don't take usually ! If I wrote that down somewhere... ? Well, I thought I told you ! If you don't remember that's not *my* fault, is it ?) But that is just a personnal opinion not based on other facts than personal experience
Another thing I've noticed is that the inherent complexity of the shadowrun system makes it harder to munchkin it out ( unless, of course, the player is quite dedicated ). It's not that hard to pick good cybernetic for a sammie, but it took me quite a while to understand just how all the drone-related, decking-related, otaku abilities, ECM and ECCM rules work. I don't think that I master them well enough to do any better than a 'good' character... so forget about munchkin ! and I definitely do fall into the 'dedicated player' category. However, it wasn't long before I figured out how to make a pretty damn strong character for DnD... is it just me ?
what? playing games, you're skipping around. yes, i used the paladin as an example--but that's just one example. whether you're playing with the D&D core classes or Spycraft's modern classes or the d20 Modern stat-based classes or Call of Cthulu's classless system, you can build characters who emphasize some stats over others. you're also mistaken about the limits--you can multiclass as much as you want, in D&D. nor are there a finite number of levels you can gain--if you want to get into games of level 20+, there are rules to support it. there aren't many games that go that high--but there aren't many games in SR that go above 500 karma, either.
i don't feel 'limited' by d20's class-based system at all. matter of fact, i'd challenge anybody here to come up with a concept i can't fulfill, in d20.
and the idea that "SR is hard to munchkin out" stands on its own absurdity, so i'm not going to bother disproving it.
i don't feel 'limited' by d20's class-based system at all. matter of fact, i'd challenge anybody here to come up with a concept i can't fulfill, in d20.
and the idea that "SR is hard to munchkin out" stands on its own absurdity, so i'm not going to bother disproving it.
| QUOTE (The Synthcat) |
| Maybe I'm just wrong but... doesn't the standard rule about botches stipulates that to actually botch you need to have 1s for half or more of the total of dices you roll ( no matter is you've got successes with the other dices ) ? |
Nope. Under standard rules, you only botch if all dice come up 1s. That gives a 1 in 6 chance with 1 die, 1 in 36 with 2 dice, 1 in 216 with 3 dice, and so on... it gets six times more unlikely for every die you add. With most of the potentially dangerous skills (Combat Skills, mostly), you get to add pool dice up to the level of the skill, so even a fairly low skill is unlikely to botch. My sorcerer, for example, feels fairly safe about using his Launch Weapons 2 to fire his RPG, which'd probably kill the whole group if he botched. With Combat Pool added in, I get four dice for it, for a botch probability of a mere 1 in 1296 (And I don't use it if I don't have the pool available. 1 in 36 odds of botching are far too high when playing with rocket launchers).
Having eight dice all come up 1s is a 1 in 1679616 chance... extremely unlikely, but not impossible. I've had it happen, once... playing Battletech years ago, I fired four Ultra AC/20s at once and all four of them jammed.
I took 2 days to figure out how to make a good powergame D20 charactor. But I took only 2 hours to do it right in Shadowrun.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| *sigh* you gain XP for defeating foes. if the bad guys run away because you Intimidated them to hell and back, you get the XP. if you snuck around them, you get the XP. if you waded in and slaughtered them, you get the XP. if you paid them 200gp to sod off, you get the XP. |
Point taken, but you didn't respond to my point about how splitting all of character advancement into levels is a bad idea from the start. Why on earth do they suddenly become more powerful?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| in most games--SR, D&D--involve combat to a heavy degree. how realistic is it for a shaman to spend gobs of karma on initiation, spells, ally spirits, etc., and never get better at combat? |
They get far better at combat, they just don't become better at hitting the opponent physically or taking damage.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| and the single Spycraft game you saw played isn't exactly iron-clad evidence. |
OK: Can you give an example of how deadly the system is then?
Oh yes: And ROTFL @ how the Cuthulu D20 system gave stats for the gods.
Oh yes: And ROTFL @ how the Cuthulu D20 system gave stats for the gods.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Oh yes: And ROTFL @ how the Cuthulu D20 system gave stats for the gods. |
Everything in D20 needs stats, just so the heroes can whack it round the skull.
I dislike the nature of D20 systems generally - the only exception being some of the D&D based CRPGs (I'm a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate series) where some of the limitations can be removed easily - don't have fireball memorised then just change it and rest with no effect whatsoever (or just reload a previous save) - in ways that aren't possible with a table game.
The whole idea of levelling up is abhorrent to me - the reason I can't play games like based on the Palladium system (TMNT and N&S are otherwise great games).
One system I do like is the Chaosium (RuneQuest and Stormbringer), in which skills increase per use and I'd like an aspect of that in SR (simply using a skill in anger will reduce the amount of training time required to increase it). Although those system's don't cater well for player rewards, only character rewards...
The other issues about D&D - the saves are too abitrary and the chance of failure too great for some, too low for others (which reverses for criticals of course). Far too many aspects of the game are there because that's the way someone thinks it should work rather than out of any particularly sensible reason (I'll think of some examples) - it all seems a bit forced. SR is *much* more logical and open, easier to interpret and, if necessary, change. I think everyone has some aspects of the rules that they want to change, but it tends to be minor things in areas that one has an expertise in (exceptions noted), and that can be done quite easily.
Each character in SR can be as the player wants (the lack of a random factor is positive) and unique - especially using the points based system.
My only personal complaints with SR are full-auto fire (which is very easily remedied, although I've not play tested it yet) and botches (I personally prefer something like any failure with more than 50% 1s is a botch - again not tested and I've not worked out the probabilities, but it should represent that when you stretch yourself to hit a higher target number you're more likely to fail catastrophically)
In short, my experience of D20 is that it's good for simplistic, short term games for a bit of a laugh. SR is for life (or is that SR is life..?)
an example? okay. Our Hero has 13 Con, ergo 13 wound points. he's walking down the street, and some punk decides to shoot him with his .44 revolver and take his wallet. Our Hero rolls to listen, and it comes up a 1; the GM spens an action point, making that a critical failure. the GM then rolls for the punk to shoot, and gets a 19--he's rolling hot tonight. he spends another action point, making it a critical hit. the 2d6+2 damage the punk rolls are subtracted directly from Our Hero's wound points, potentially bringing Our Hero from full health to -2 vp and dying in one shot.
characters suddenly becoming more powerful through level advancement is no stranger than characters suddenly gaining extra dice to shoot their pistol. it's a game mechanic. the division between 'powerups' is a bit sharper in d20, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in SR.
SR is much more logical and open? really? then why is it that someone who knows how to throw baseballs (throwing weapons 3) can suddenly gauge the point at which he should release a throwing knife, to hit a given target point-first? why is it that rounds designed to pierce hardened armor (AV ammo) are on an equal footing with armor-piercing rounds when it comes to personal armor? why is it that different types of bone lacing have different essence costs, when the procedure for implanting each type should logically be the same? why can't smartlinks work with electronic scopes? why does a person do worse by actually learning a point of skill, than by defaulting to a high stat?
and if SR is malleable, d20 is infinitely moreso. do i need to start naming the countless d20 rules variants to be found out there?
characters suddenly becoming more powerful through level advancement is no stranger than characters suddenly gaining extra dice to shoot their pistol. it's a game mechanic. the division between 'powerups' is a bit sharper in d20, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in SR.
SR is much more logical and open? really? then why is it that someone who knows how to throw baseballs (throwing weapons 3) can suddenly gauge the point at which he should release a throwing knife, to hit a given target point-first? why is it that rounds designed to pierce hardened armor (AV ammo) are on an equal footing with armor-piercing rounds when it comes to personal armor? why is it that different types of bone lacing have different essence costs, when the procedure for implanting each type should logically be the same? why can't smartlinks work with electronic scopes? why does a person do worse by actually learning a point of skill, than by defaulting to a high stat?
and if SR is malleable, d20 is infinitely moreso. do i need to start naming the countless d20 rules variants to be found out there?
Everyone here loves banging on about how lethal SR is and how gutterpunks can scare even the most battle hardened shadowrunners, etc.
My question is... how?
Even a starting character in SR has little or no reason to fear street punks unless they have some decidedly non-street punk weapons!
What ork street sammie doesn't start the game with body 10+ (11 or 15 depending on whether you like dermal or orthoskin!) and at least 8 points of ballistic armour? This guy loves getting shot at by pistols... he positively lives for it! BLAM! BLAM! 'Keep 'em coming boys!' he shouts... BLAM! BLAM! 'Damn that feels nice... like raindrops... pitter patter!'
Even the mage is probably gonna have combat pool 7 or 8, Body of at least 3 and a minimum 5 points of armour... and that's if he's poorly designed! Plus, the moment the street punk shoots him he soaks it down and cracks out a Force 6 Manabolt with Sorcery 6, a bunch of spell pool and the punk is junk!
Characters in SR are ridiculously tough. They're hard as nails and can kick ass like nobody else. A starting street sam could probably quite easily go toe to toe with as many 'average' punks as you like without any problems.
Somebody who likes maths can solve this equation for me...
First some definitions...
Gang Punk: All stats at 4, Karma Pool 1, Brawling 4, Edged Weapons 4, Pistols 4, Gear: Ares Predator, Knife, Synthleather Jacket (0/2)
Ork Street Sam: B15, Q9, S12, CIW 4, Initiative 3d6+12 (very low!), Karma Pool 1, Ambidexterity 8, Pistols 6, Martial Art that allows Whirling probably with Edged Weapons ™ 6, Edged Weapons 6, SMG 6, Smartlink, Enhanced Articulation, Couple of Reflex Recorders, etc. Gear: Ares Predator III x2, Ingram Smartguns (Gas Vent IV, Personalised Grip, Underbarrel Weight, Yawn!) x2, Katana (Dikoted, of course!), Cougar Fineblade Knife (Dikoted), Secure Jacket + Form Fitting III (With cyber gives armour 8/6)
Now, solve for X...
X (Gang Punks) = Dead (Ork Street Sam)
Any takers? Can they kill him? No, never, they haven't a hope in hell. Unless the GM cracks out some 'There are 50 gadzillion of them, of course they win' ruling or some 'There's so many he slips a gun in your mouth, your dead' BS ™ then he's wading through them like dogshit.
He's pretty much a starting character, okay, you can whine about availability at chargen of one or two items, and you'll probably say he's munchie or something. But he's totally valid and can still be a well rounded character... totally achievable within a few sessions play and he would whip gang punks silly all day long.
Sorry, rant over! We return you to your regularly scheduled service!
My question is... how?
Even a starting character in SR has little or no reason to fear street punks unless they have some decidedly non-street punk weapons!
What ork street sammie doesn't start the game with body 10+ (11 or 15 depending on whether you like dermal or orthoskin!) and at least 8 points of ballistic armour? This guy loves getting shot at by pistols... he positively lives for it! BLAM! BLAM! 'Keep 'em coming boys!' he shouts... BLAM! BLAM! 'Damn that feels nice... like raindrops... pitter patter!'
Even the mage is probably gonna have combat pool 7 or 8, Body of at least 3 and a minimum 5 points of armour... and that's if he's poorly designed! Plus, the moment the street punk shoots him he soaks it down and cracks out a Force 6 Manabolt with Sorcery 6, a bunch of spell pool and the punk is junk!
Characters in SR are ridiculously tough. They're hard as nails and can kick ass like nobody else. A starting street sam could probably quite easily go toe to toe with as many 'average' punks as you like without any problems.
Somebody who likes maths can solve this equation for me...
First some definitions...
Gang Punk: All stats at 4, Karma Pool 1, Brawling 4, Edged Weapons 4, Pistols 4, Gear: Ares Predator, Knife, Synthleather Jacket (0/2)
Ork Street Sam: B15, Q9, S12, CIW 4, Initiative 3d6+12 (very low!), Karma Pool 1, Ambidexterity 8, Pistols 6, Martial Art that allows Whirling probably with Edged Weapons ™ 6, Edged Weapons 6, SMG 6, Smartlink, Enhanced Articulation, Couple of Reflex Recorders, etc. Gear: Ares Predator III x2, Ingram Smartguns (Gas Vent IV, Personalised Grip, Underbarrel Weight, Yawn!) x2, Katana (Dikoted, of course!), Cougar Fineblade Knife (Dikoted), Secure Jacket + Form Fitting III (With cyber gives armour 8/6)
Now, solve for X...
X (Gang Punks) = Dead (Ork Street Sam)
Any takers? Can they kill him? No, never, they haven't a hope in hell. Unless the GM cracks out some 'There are 50 gadzillion of them, of course they win' ruling or some 'There's so many he slips a gun in your mouth, your dead' BS ™ then he's wading through them like dogshit.
He's pretty much a starting character, okay, you can whine about availability at chargen of one or two items, and you'll probably say he's munchie or something. But he's totally valid and can still be a well rounded character... totally achievable within a few sessions play and he would whip gang punks silly all day long.
Sorry, rant over! We return you to your regularly scheduled service!
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