Full Version: D20 Shadowrun
| QUOTE (bwdemon) |
| A 20 Quickness is ridiculous, but it is possible under SR3. Elf + Exceptional Attribute (Quickness) + Enough Karma to get up to new racial max (12 Quickness) + Muscle Toner (+4 = 16) + Suprathyroid Gland (+1 = 17) + Move-By-Wire 3 (+3 = 20). Delta and culture as you wish. Alternately, you can get rid of MBW and the Suprathyroid Gland for a nice +4 Quickness spell lock. I agree that it's ridiculous. But it is possible and the fact remains that this character becomes less competent by training in Pistols to anything less than 5. There should *never* be a situation in a game where a character, any character, becomes worse at doing a thing by training in it. |
LOL
bioware counts as normal stat points.So,you can't get a quickness of 20,that way.
And when talking about delta move-by-wire level wire system,you may as well pull epic level artifacts from D&DMaybe just throw in the fact your a solar,wile you at it.
Well okay, if you're going to say the fact that you can be resurrected in D&D means it's not lethal then yeah, it's hardly very lethal at all. Since there are very few things that can kill or disable you effectively forever, you can almost always be saved when something really bad happens. Including death and the like. So in that case it's barely lethal in any way. I was more meaning that it's easier to die in D&D than SR due to a few bad/good rolls, but this is still in debate.
MBW and Suprathyroid aren't compatible, and yeah by the rules you can't go over your Attribute Maximum with bioware. But do the old elf/exceptional quickness/phoenotypic alteration/loads of karma/MBW/muscle replacement/etc if you like. Although I'm not sure that (cyber) augmented attributes count for defaulting. Maybe they do.
MBW and Suprathyroid aren't compatible, and yeah by the rules you can't go over your Attribute Maximum with bioware. But do the old elf/exceptional quickness/phoenotypic alteration/loads of karma/MBW/muscle replacement/etc if you like. Although I'm not sure that (cyber) augmented attributes count for defaulting. Maybe they do.
Just like PG said, bio counts as the real stat. So if you chirp up an Elf, or even use a Night One (+2 Qui), then plop in Exceptional Attribute (Qui), there's 9 Qui. Manage to push it to 13 ingame, also have Muscle Replacement 4 for 17 Qui. If you manage to get the money, the contacts, the sponsorship of a corp with a delta clinic, and the rolls to acquire it, you can then throw in Delta MBW 4, raising it to 21. But that's a fragging lot of "ifs," and I doubt any GM in their right mind would allow it for anything other than a rare game to play overly twinked characters.
Edit: Did I mention you'd have to have Delta MR as well, or be forced to go the route of CZ? Yeah. Good luck there.
Unless, of course, you don't mind characters with only one thing to do in their short-lived life (due to all that high grade stuff in there and all). What would that be? Run for dear life from scavengers.
Edit: Did I mention you'd have to have Delta MR as well, or be forced to go the route of CZ? Yeah. Good luck there.
Unless, of course, you don't mind characters with only one thing to do in their short-lived life (due to all that high grade stuff in there and all). What would that be? Run for dear life from scavengers.
BWdemon: I'm sorry, but you're wrong. You'd be correct if they were only facing one opponent, they'd be roughly equal-- but if they were facing 4 or more, the ambidextrous adept would be dead.
Prototype: You're forgetting about common tactics. I can't duplicate your example as a starting character using McMackies (not enough essence, money, or edge points), so let's use the Street Sam fresh out of the BBB. We'll equip the sammie with an armored coat and full FFBA, so his armor is 7/3.
A ganger surprises Sam the sam. Gary ganger spends a simple action to shoot Sam. The ganger is rolling 6 dice (4 skill plus 2 pool) against a TN of 3 (laser sight). Gary Ganger will average 4 successes. Sam the Sam can't dodge, so he's rolling his body + dermal armor (6) against a TN of 2. He'll average 5 successes, which means he takes a moderate and gets pissed, right?
Wrong. Gary Ganger takes his second simple action to shoot again, your basic double-tap tactic. His TN goes up to 4 because of recoil, but Gary pulls in the rest of his combat pool dice, meaning he's rolling 8 this time. (In game terms, Gary knows that it's the second shot that's deadly.) The net result is that Sam will take another moderate, bringing him up to Serious. (If Gary's got any recoil comp at all, Gary will average 5.5 successes, which we'll round to a 6. Sam the Sam would take an additional serious, placing him one box away from dead.)
If that doesn't sound bad enough, imagine if Gary Ganger has his friend, Greg, participating in the ambush. Sam is toast.
See, I don't think you've been using simple tactics for your NPC's, like the double tap. Cover, lighting, and double-taps can easily switch a standard ganger from "not a threat" to "certain death", at least in Shadowrun. In d20, there's no helping it.
Prototype: You're forgetting about common tactics. I can't duplicate your example as a starting character using McMackies (not enough essence, money, or edge points), so let's use the Street Sam fresh out of the BBB. We'll equip the sammie with an armored coat and full FFBA, so his armor is 7/3.
A ganger surprises Sam the sam. Gary ganger spends a simple action to shoot Sam. The ganger is rolling 6 dice (4 skill plus 2 pool) against a TN of 3 (laser sight). Gary Ganger will average 4 successes. Sam the Sam can't dodge, so he's rolling his body + dermal armor (6) against a TN of 2. He'll average 5 successes, which means he takes a moderate and gets pissed, right?
Wrong. Gary Ganger takes his second simple action to shoot again, your basic double-tap tactic. His TN goes up to 4 because of recoil, but Gary pulls in the rest of his combat pool dice, meaning he's rolling 8 this time. (In game terms, Gary knows that it's the second shot that's deadly.) The net result is that Sam will take another moderate, bringing him up to Serious. (If Gary's got any recoil comp at all, Gary will average 5.5 successes, which we'll round to a 6. Sam the Sam would take an additional serious, placing him one box away from dead.)
If that doesn't sound bad enough, imagine if Gary Ganger has his friend, Greg, participating in the ambush. Sam is toast.
See, I don't think you've been using simple tactics for your NPC's, like the double tap. Cover, lighting, and double-taps can easily switch a standard ganger from "not a threat" to "certain death", at least in Shadowrun. In d20, there's no helping it.
Well, that's certainly true of the Sam out of the book. Although even he has a point of karma. You're also assuming short range and that there are no movement or cover penalties. How does the ganger surprise Sam the Sam without hiding behind something, or moving out from behind cover? Is he invisible?...
But anyway, if you're making up a PC you'd have access to other books, such as M&M so a self-respecting sam would have a trauma damper & platelet factories for starters, and probably a few other bits of handy bio and cyberware.
I think the problem is that, a little unlike real life, if you double tap a guy in SR who has decent armour and a lot of body then if he's able to resist one shot with just bod, he can likely resist two in quick succession. If anything it'll get worse for the shooter cos, as you said, there could be some recoil. Not very likely for most people, but possible for gangers and the like.
Ambidextrous adept: I guess if he's pretty well "twinked out" and geared towards rolling dozens of dice in melee, he'll have maneuvers like whirling to help even the odds against multiple opponents.
But anyway, if you're making up a PC you'd have access to other books, such as M&M so a self-respecting sam would have a trauma damper & platelet factories for starters, and probably a few other bits of handy bio and cyberware.
I think the problem is that, a little unlike real life, if you double tap a guy in SR who has decent armour and a lot of body then if he's able to resist one shot with just bod, he can likely resist two in quick succession. If anything it'll get worse for the shooter cos, as you said, there could be some recoil. Not very likely for most people, but possible for gangers and the like.
Ambidextrous adept: I guess if he's pretty well "twinked out" and geared towards rolling dozens of dice in melee, he'll have maneuvers like whirling to help even the odds against multiple opponents.
You forgot one thing: Most GMs don't allow Cultured Bio, which includes anything dealing with the nervous system (Syn Accel, Trauma Dampener, Cerebral, et cetera).
Okay, so no trauma damper then. 
But the point is that it's *really* hard for the ganger to surprise the sam without incurring some penalties for cover/movement/lighting, and thus still be shooting for a decent target number. If/when the ganger does hit, a sam that's only a little better than the one in SR3 won't have much trouble shaking off the damage.
But the point is that it's *really* hard for the ganger to surprise the sam without incurring some penalties for cover/movement/lighting, and thus still be shooting for a decent target number. If/when the ganger does hit, a sam that's only a little better than the one in SR3 won't have much trouble shaking off the damage.
Not so... Give the Sam a distraction (Gang Mage casting Chaotic World, or a really, really hot chick walking by wearing little more than some lingerie...) and the gang enough time to set themselves up behind him... They all get a surprise action, Sam go bye-bye (since they no doubt won't be moving, will be well covered so he has a higher TN, and should be fairly close). Gangers are only stupid when they don't have a leader, and even then they can do damage.
I just state that in the D&D 3.5 DMG, pages 36-37, it says that the DM should award players xp based on the CR of the monsters defeated. Defeated does not necessarily mean killed, as the DMG also points out.
I've had D&D campaigns that had few overall deaths. I've also had SR games that were corpse-tastic (though I really disliked those games).
I think that we should let this thread die; people won't change their minds.
I've had D&D campaigns that had few overall deaths. I've also had SR games that were corpse-tastic (though I really disliked those games).
I think that we should let this thread die; people won't change their minds.
Some people won't change their mind about SR2 being superior to SR3, or their house rules being superior to someone elses house rules, or... well, I'm sure you get your picture.
If the people on Dumpshock only talked on things we agreed on, there would be very little to say.
I think there's been some good dialog in this thread; a better S/N ratio than many other d20-related threads. I've found it useful and interesting, and I'm refreshed to see that some of the "I hate the idea of d20 Shadowrun and have nothing useful to say!" people have simply opted out of discussing something they're not interested in.
If the people on Dumpshock only talked on things we agreed on, there would be very little to say.
I think there's been some good dialog in this thread; a better S/N ratio than many other d20-related threads. I've found it useful and interesting, and I'm refreshed to see that some of the "I hate the idea of d20 Shadowrun and have nothing useful to say!" people have simply opted out of discussing something they're not interested in.
Re: Tailoring encounters in Shadowrun. I think it is obvious that a d20 Shadowrun would have almost exclusively "Status Quo" type Encounters, and mostly "Status Quo" Motivation. As was said, a corp facility will have the same amount of security almost completely regardless of the abilities of the PCs. "Random Encounters" are the same, gangers will have the same kind of abilities regardless of the PCs.
I'm trying to figure out what ranged combat in d20 Modern looks like and, well, I don't like what I've got together so far. I'm trying to get my hands on some of the books, but meanwhile: Armor still just decreases the likelyhood of getting hit, correct? That'll screw up the Rifles vs Pistols balance even more than the canon SR system does, and is heck of a lot harder to get back to shape.
And WTF is Plate Mail and Chainmail doing in the armor lists anyway? Looking at the gear lists, it seems the game designers of d20 Modern had some "experts" telling them what kind of gear would be nice to have, but apparently they didn't tell the game designers how they work. I'd like to see some poor bastard wearing plate mail into a 21st century firefight... Although some moron at WotC seems to think wearing a suit of plate mail isn't significantly more restricting than an armored vest with plates. If these already fucked up rules concerning gear were translated to SR by the people who brought us canon SR Gear.... *shudder*
I'm already having visions of Baldur's Gate with 2 Fighter-types (Street Sammys) in Plate Mail (SecGrade) standing still 3 meters away from each other, each firing his Barrett at the other once every 6 seconds with the bullets just clinging off... But more on that once I've read through most of the d20 Modern rules.
I'm trying to figure out what ranged combat in d20 Modern looks like and, well, I don't like what I've got together so far. I'm trying to get my hands on some of the books, but meanwhile: Armor still just decreases the likelyhood of getting hit, correct? That'll screw up the Rifles vs Pistols balance even more than the canon SR system does, and is heck of a lot harder to get back to shape.
And WTF is Plate Mail and Chainmail doing in the armor lists anyway? Looking at the gear lists, it seems the game designers of d20 Modern had some "experts" telling them what kind of gear would be nice to have, but apparently they didn't tell the game designers how they work. I'd like to see some poor bastard wearing plate mail into a 21st century firefight... Although some moron at WotC seems to think wearing a suit of plate mail isn't significantly more restricting than an armored vest with plates. If these already fucked up rules concerning gear were translated to SR by the people who brought us canon SR Gear.... *shudder*
I'm already having visions of Baldur's Gate with 2 Fighter-types (Street Sammys) in Plate Mail (SecGrade) standing still 3 meters away from each other, each firing his Barrett at the other once every 6 seconds with the bullets just clinging off... But more on that once I've read through most of the d20 Modern rules.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I'm already having visions of Baldur's Gate with 2 Fighter-types (Street Sammys) in Plate Mail (SecGrade) standing still 3 meters away from each other, each firing his Barrett at the other once every 6 seconds with the bullets just clinging off... But more on that once I've read through most of the d20 Modern rules. |
You could always Cheese Now do you know how to whoop Demogorgon/Amelysan ass properly?
Got my hands on d20 Modern Core and d20 Ultramodern Firearms. Am trying hard not to vomit. Failed. *barf*
It never really bothered me when people read D&D PHB and thought that normal medieval 2h swords weighed in at 20lbs... But now there might be a whole generation of folk out there who think a FN Five-seveN does the same kind of damage as a 12G shotgun!
It never really bothered me when people read D&D PHB and thought that normal medieval 2h swords weighed in at 20lbs... But now there might be a whole generation of folk out there who think a FN Five-seveN does the same kind of damage as a 12G shotgun!
| QUOTE (LoseAsDirected) |
| You only get 100% of the XP value of an opponent if you defeat them in combat. Any other means of 'surviving an encounter' nets you only half the XP. |
i've never seen that in any 3.0 or 3.5 book i own. quote me passage and verse, and i'll believe you; until then, you're talking about stuff you just don't understand.
20 lbs? where are you getting that? when i open my 3.5e PHB, i see a longsword weighing at at 6 lbs. besides, the people who believe a pistol does the same damage as a shotgun are the same people who believe all firearms of a given type use the same ammo, and that it's no big thing to put out the same weapon in both cased and caseless ammo types.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) | ||
Good points in your post, LoseAsDirected, but off a little on the math. Rolling a 2+ is an 83% chance. |
Urhm, yes. Thank you. I was calculating the odds based on my house rule (I tend to do math in my head so fast that I don't stop and think.. The answers just work themselves out before I even figure out what the problem I want to solve is), where a '1' on a reroll (such as to get a TN higher than 6) is effectively treated as a '0', so a '2' is treated as a '1', a '3' is treated as a '2', etc... This way, a TN of 7 is actually significant, since you have to reroll a '2' or better. I just did the percentages based on my house rule. Sorry for the confusion. Still, even at an 83% chance out of an original 16.67% chance, you're WELL below the 50% chance noted for the alternative as mentioned above.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) | ||
It's a Free Action to Call a Shot, and it does not require a complex action to Aim. Aim is optional, and is a Simple Action if the character chooses to do it. |
Ah, thank you. As you no dopubt could figure, I wasn't 100% certain on the rules.. And, as any GM can attest to, the tendency is to believe whatever you think the rule is to be the actual rule. My mistake, again.
Well, iirc most guns in most armed forces use the same ammo,more so when the nations are close allies,or fighting each other.
not so much, PG. there's a variety of commonly-used rounds within firearm types.
I never said I know everything.I just am having fun,and playing games.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| 20 lbs? where are you getting that? when i open my 3.5e PHB, i see a longsword weighing at at 6 lbs. |
Which is still abnormally heavy. A period longsword would weigh at most probably 3-3.5lbs. Most would probably be as light as possible. Celtic and Roman longswords would probably weigh around 2lbs. A 'bastard' sword woudn't weigh much more than a long sword either and in many cases wouldn't statistically be any heavier. Large two-handed swords meant for combat would only weigh around 4-5lbs.
D&D does have it's issues with things like this, but then again it's not any different than SR's issues with regard to firearms.
sure, it's heavy--but it's not 20 lbs. i was deflating austere's absurd argument--and i'd like to point out the weight of your average troll in SR. talk about absurd!
AE was talking about two-handed swords (greatswords etc) though which, by my trusty D&D3.0-fu, weigh 15lbs. They may have changed it for 3.5 or AE may have been looking at the greataxe which in 3.0 is 20lbs.
Looking through another book I have on the topic, indeed there are some swords that weigh around (albeit less than) 14lbs. These, however, are the MASSIVE 2m-long German Zweihander swords which are not normal two-handed swords. To give an example of normal two-handers: a heavy example of the Scottish Claymore could weigh-in at 6.5lbs and a 2m Japanese No-Dachi weighs around 9lbs.
Looking through another book I have on the topic, indeed there are some swords that weigh around (albeit less than) 14lbs. These, however, are the MASSIVE 2m-long German Zweihander swords which are not normal two-handed swords. To give an example of normal two-handers: a heavy example of the Scottish Claymore could weigh-in at 6.5lbs and a 2m Japanese No-Dachi weighs around 9lbs.
Yeah, when I say "2h sword" it usually means two-handed sword. I thought that was a very common abbreviation. 15lbs for a 2h sword is totally pointless, it would be nearly unusable in combat for most people. A D&D 3E Falchion (two-handed saber) weighs in at 16lbs. The greataxe Lilt mentioned is 20lbs, and that's probably where I took that from. It appears two-handed swords weighed 15lbs even back in the AD&D 2E days. All these weights are twice or more what actual weapons of the type weighed and do weigh. I made a small error (33%), so it wasn't absurd. And in case you think it is, let me rephrase:
It never really bothered me when people read D&D PHB and thought that normal medieval 2h swords weighed in at 15lbs [...]
The weight of the average troll is certainly odd. But it cannot be compared to the weapon weight problem in any way, because trolls don't exist. Two-handed swords do.
It never really bothered me when people read D&D PHB and thought that normal medieval 2h swords weighed in at 15lbs [...]
The weight of the average troll is certainly odd. But it cannot be compared to the weapon weight problem in any way, because trolls don't exist. Two-handed swords do.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| besides, the people who believe a pistol does the same damage as a shotgun are the same people who believe all firearms of a given type use the same ammo, and that it's no big thing to put out the same weapon in both cased and caseless ammo types. |
This group of people, I'll wager, makes up 33+% of Shadowrun players, and the first group makes up 50+% of the world-wide gamer (RPG or otherwise) community.
An example of d20 Modern Shadowrun combat coming up once I tweak a few characters into shape. Having read through some of the rules, I think it is now obvious that a canon SR starting character is actually closer to level 11 than level 5 -- just beginning the "Advanced" classes. I'll go with the level 5 that I've been talking about so far, however, so that people don't pounce on me for that.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
| Yeah, when I say "2h sword" it usually means two-handed sword. I thought that was a very common abbreviation. 15lbs for a 2h sword is totally pointless, it would be nearly unusable in combat for most people. A D&D 3E Falchion (two-handed saber) weighs in at 16lbs. The greataxe Lilt mentioned is 20lbs, and that's probably where I took that from. It appears two-handed swords weighed 15lbs even back in the AD&D 2E days. All these weights are twice or more what actual weapons of the type weighed and do weigh. I made a small error (33%), so it wasn't absurd. And in case you think it is, let me rephrase: It never really bothered me when people read D&D PHB and thought that normal medieval 2h swords weighed in at 15lbs [...] The weight of the average troll is certainly odd. But it cannot be compared to the weapon weight problem in any way, because trolls don't exist. Two-handed swords do.
This group of people, I'll wager, makes up 33+% of Shadowrun players, and the first group makes up 50+% of the world-wide gamer (RPG or otherwise) community. An example of d20 Modern Shadowrun combat coming up once I tweak a few characters into shape. Having read through some of the rules, I think it is now obvious that a canon SR starting character is actually closer to level 11 than level 5 -- just beginning the "Advanced" classes. I'll go with the level 5 that I've been talking about so far, however, so that people don't pounce on me for that. |
Oh my! What sort of Crappy game has the wrong weights for weapons..?
Again, not the same for SR, where none of the weapons are real, and all the pictures describe anime-like Big Guns™. And the whole point was that if the (already screwed up) equipment lists for d20 Modern were ported to Shadowrun by the people who brought us the (quite screwed up) canon SR Gear lists, then the end result is going to be really screwed up.
right, right. because SR isn't based on our world in sixty years, therefore it'd be silly to expect the weapons to be in any way realistic. that's just dumb!
besides, the pictures describe a lot of things. and, honestly? let's sit down and talk equipment. i guarantee i'll come up with more discrepancies between SR and the real world than for D&D.
besides, the pictures describe a lot of things. and, honestly? let's sit down and talk equipment. i guarantee i'll come up with more discrepancies between SR and the real world than for D&D.
I've no interest in sitting down and talking equipment. I just made a comment about the fact that the weirdness of equipment lists in D&D never bothered me much but the FN Five-seveN = 12G Shotgun damage-wise in d20 Modern does. Then you said it was absurd. And I said it wasn't. And then people starting going on about SR being just as bad, and I said it isn't (at least shotguns do more damage in SR than the FN 5-7C -- quite a bit more in fact).
I've made about, what, 1,000? 2,000? house rules (including changes to gear, or making new ones) to make the weapons and ranged combat in SR more realistic or at least believable. Talking about the level of realism in canon SR weaponry with me is totally pointless.
I've made about, what, 1,000? 2,000? house rules (including changes to gear, or making new ones) to make the weapons and ranged combat in SR more realistic or at least believable. Talking about the level of realism in canon SR weaponry with me is totally pointless.
right--but the fact that SR's weaponry is just as absurd as D&D's invalidates the point that D&D is an inferior game because its weapon rules are absurd. they're both absurd, so you ("you" in a general sense, not you specifically) can't say that you favor SR over D&D because SR's weapons and equipment rules make more sense.
Actually, most of the discrepancies in Shadowrun weights are due to some game designer not understanding the metric system. If you read the weights as being in pounds, and not kilos, they're not so terrible anymore.
weights, sure. but weight is the least of the issues with SR's equipment.
And I though I made it obvious with the whole Medieval Sword Weights vs Modern RL Firearm Damages that I don't think weights are an issue either...
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you can't say that you favor SR over D&D because SR's weapons and equipment rules make more sense. |
But I can still say that I favor SR over d20 Modern because SR's weapon damages make more sense. I won't, though, because that's a really silly reason to favor a RPG system, but it's still true. And that was my whole point from the beginning.
hah! SR's weapon damages are insane. a light pistol does L damage? oh, and explain to me why the multi-weapon systems like the CSL have such an insane variety in damage codes, when they're using the same friggin' round? a point or two of power, okay, but raising the damage level? wtf, over?
HAH! And a 9mm pistol does 2d6, and a shotgun slug does 2d8?
i'm not saying d20's rules make more sense. i'm not saying d20 is a superior game. i'm saying that it's not inferior, especially for the reasons you're bringing up.
Neither was I saying that it was inferior. "SR's weapon damages make more sense [but] that's a really silly reason to favor a RPG system". But the weapon damages in d20 Modern still remain more screwed up.
The 5th level Tough Cyber-Troll that I've got built so far can take 9 non-critical hits from 12g shotgun slugs, or 7 non-crits from a 7.62mm sniper rifle, without slowing down.
The 5th level Tough Cyber-Troll that I've got built so far can take 9 non-critical hits from 12g shotgun slugs, or 7 non-crits from a 7.62mm sniper rifle, without slowing down.
i'm reasonably sure i could match that in SR, depending on the skill of the shooter.
regardless. who else has a made-up gripe about d20 that i can debunk?
regardless. who else has a made-up gripe about d20 that i can debunk?
That characters in d20 can withstand a lot more hits from firearms than in SR is not a "made-up gripe". This particular troll could stand nude 5 meters away from a shotgun-toting security guard, unarmored, not trying to dodge in any way, and just let the secguard fire his slugs into him, and not be particularly afraid. Even if the guard gets a crit (which requires some extremely good luck on the guard's part -- about 3.75% chance on 1 shot), it won't matter much, because the Troll has a Massive Damage limit of 28 -- the guard would have to roll 14 or more with 2d8 to force a Fortitude Save, and the Troll would only have to roll 3 or more on d20 to save (90% chance).
Feel free to try that in SR. Normal secguard, give him skill 4, CP4, Defiance T-250 with slug rounds, short range, only ware present is Dermal Sheath-3 and Titanium Bone Lacing in the Troll, and the natural Body of the Troll is 10 (5 + 5 racial, I gave the d20 Troll 15 starting Con). Qui4/Int2/Wil4 for a Combat Pool of 5 for soaking only. That's 16 Body dice to resist vs 9 (10 - 1 Ballistic armor from BoneLacing) with 5 additional CP dice per CT.
[Edit #2]To make it more interesting, do the same with a FN 5-7C in Semi-Auto for the secguard, everything else stays the same. d20 Modern would give the exact same results.[/Edit #2]
[Edit]And I'm still not saying d20 Shadowrun would be unplayable or anything. At low levels it might be really fun as a "Street Level" campaign. At high levels it might be really fun as a "Superhero" campaign. I am slightly doubtful if it can portray something in between, and that's what I'm trying to figure out with these level 5 chars.[/Edit]
Feel free to try that in SR. Normal secguard, give him skill 4, CP4, Defiance T-250 with slug rounds, short range, only ware present is Dermal Sheath-3 and Titanium Bone Lacing in the Troll, and the natural Body of the Troll is 10 (5 + 5 racial, I gave the d20 Troll 15 starting Con). Qui4/Int2/Wil4 for a Combat Pool of 5 for soaking only. That's 16 Body dice to resist vs 9 (10 - 1 Ballistic armor from BoneLacing) with 5 additional CP dice per CT.
[Edit #2]To make it more interesting, do the same with a FN 5-7C in Semi-Auto for the secguard, everything else stays the same. d20 Modern would give the exact same results.[/Edit #2]
[Edit]And I'm still not saying d20 Shadowrun would be unplayable or anything. At low levels it might be really fun as a "Street Level" campaign. At high levels it might be really fun as a "Superhero" campaign. I am slightly doubtful if it can portray something in between, and that's what I'm trying to figure out with these level 5 chars.[/Edit]
Spycraft page 159. read about what vitality points are. for those without the book, i'll explain: vitality points represent near-misses, minor flesh wounds, fatigue, and the like.
the fact that Joe Average can't commit suicide with a light pistol in SR isn't a made-up gripe, either. nor is the fact that a max-body troll can take a panter round in the tusks and keep going a figment of someone's imagination. neither system has a tight grasp on reality.
the fact that Joe Average can't commit suicide with a light pistol in SR isn't a made-up gripe, either. nor is the fact that a max-body troll can take a panter round in the tusks and keep going a figment of someone's imagination. neither system has a tight grasp on reality.
You are correct, they don't. If you forget about the bit in MitS that says a character can do any amount of damage on him/herself that s/he wants to, then d20 gives Joe Average a better chance to kill himself with a pistol. It's still easy to fail at it, though: Joe Average needs to roll 14+ on d20 to hit himself, and then roll 7 or more on 2d6 to lose consciousness.
The latter is a lot easier in d20 Modern. The troll I've built here can take 6 hits from a Barrett without budging.
So the Vitality Points give players modifiers to skill and attribute checks and attack rolls, depending on how much you've been shot at/hit? That would certainly have to be integrated into d20 Shadowrun, unless you really want that Superhero campaign
The latter is a lot easier in d20 Modern. The troll I've built here can take 6 hits from a Barrett without budging.
So the Vitality Points give players modifiers to skill and attribute checks and attack rolls, depending on how much you've been shot at/hit? That would certainly have to be integrated into d20 Shadowrun, unless you really want that Superhero campaign
Wasn't it said that a person could concievably take whatever damage he wanted from himself? Therefore, a person could commit suicide with the Tifany Self Defender could choose to do D + Body and blow his brains out the back of his head.
A max body Troll could take "a panther in the tusks" because, even if you call a shot, they do go awry. It doesn't help that the Panther does 18D, meaning to stage it, even rolling, say, 20 dice, he'd need at least 12 points of ballistic armor. Now the rules for reduced CP and Quickness come into play because Trolls can only have a natural Qui maxed at 7, unless they take the Exception Qui, which then it can be 9. Still lowers CP, and then their lowered Int wil take that down further. So, in theory, if you ignore all the rules about armor, then, yes, a Troll could stage a Panther.
Edit: AE beat me to the first point. Lucky guy.
A max body Troll could take "a panther in the tusks" because, even if you call a shot, they do go awry. It doesn't help that the Panther does 18D, meaning to stage it, even rolling, say, 20 dice, he'd need at least 12 points of ballistic armor. Now the rules for reduced CP and Quickness come into play because Trolls can only have a natural Qui maxed at 7, unless they take the Exception Qui, which then it can be 9. Still lowers CP, and then their lowered Int wil take that down further. So, in theory, if you ignore all the rules about armor, then, yes, a Troll could stage a Panther.
Edit: AE beat me to the first point. Lucky guy.
like the book says, vitality points represent minor hits and near-misses which don't slow the character down. when you run out of vp, though, you're fatigued--can't run, can't charge, lower Str and Dex by 2, and there's a chance you'll be stunned for 2d6 rounds. so, to answer your question: yes, vitality points give players modifiers to skill and attribute checks and attack rolls, depending on how much you've been shot at/hit.
oh, so, wait--shots can go awry in SR, but not in d20? whoah!
oh, so, wait--shots can go awry in SR, but not in d20? whoah!
It appears shots with large caliber weapons in d20 go awry 95+% of the time.
Some mechanic for increasing the damage caused with a ranged weapon while making hitting harder (a "called shot", or a weakened Power Attack for firearms) would really be neccessary for d20 Shadowrun, or otherwise sniping becomes a bit useless at high levels. Even with a Barrett, you'd have to hit high-level runners repeatedly (at least 5+ times) to kill them, unless you get insanely lucky and roll a Critical. A high-level troll could need 10+ hits.
Some mechanic for increasing the damage caused with a ranged weapon while making hitting harder (a "called shot", or a weakened Power Attack for firearms) would really be neccessary for d20 Shadowrun, or otherwise sniping becomes a bit useless at high levels. Even with a Barrett, you'd have to hit high-level runners repeatedly (at least 5+ times) to kill them, unless you get insanely lucky and roll a Critical. A high-level troll could need 10+ hits.
you mean, like bullseye?
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 18 2004, 04:58 PM) |
| hah! SR's weapon damages are insane. a light pistol does L damage? oh, and explain to me why the multi-weapon systems like the CSL have such an insane variety in damage codes, when they're using the same friggin' round? a point or two of power, okay, but raising the damage level? wtf, over? |
The damage codes in SR aren't that absurd..
Consider this. A light pistol does Light damage on a basic, regular hit.. We're talking just a limb shot, or a shot that doesn't hit an organ. It causes a Light physical wound. It hurts like hell, but isn't enough to slow you down considerable.
In order for that weapon to be more lethal, you need to get a better 'hit' on your target.. You do this by rolling more successes. This would cause you to hit something vital, and staging the damage up correspondingly.
A heavy pistol does Medium damage on the same, basic, regular hit. Again, this is like a limb shot, or a shot to anything but an organ. It does more damage, quite realistically, because it's going to blow a larger hole in the target, causing more blood loss, more pain, and slow the target down considerably.
A shotgun does Serious damage on the same, basic, regular hit. It's going to cause an even larger wound...
Anyway, I think you get the point. The damage code for weapons assume a basic, generic, non-vital-organ shot... It's realistic because even a light pistol can cause Deadly damage if a good shot is made, which is easier for a highly skilled runner to do..
In d20, a light pistol will always do 1d10 (standard pistol damage, per d20 generic firearm rules), regardless of the skill of the shooter. The only way to do more is to get lucky and roll a critical, which has less to do with skill than it does with the outcome of the d20s natural roll.
If you mean the Feat Bull's Eye in Ultramodern Firearms, then no, I don't mean like that. That still only helps you if you get insanely lucky in the first place and roll that natural 20. Like I said, I meant something more like a weakened "Power Attack". Maybe -4 To-Hit, +2 Damage, available for anyone with Personal Firearms Proficiency, with more powerful versions for those who have a Feat for it (maybe -6 To-Hit, +4 Damage).
| QUOTE (LoseAsDirected) |
| The damage codes in SR aren't that absurd.. |
Actually, I agree with mfb in that it's silly that a Light Pistol only does Light. Unless you assume all Heavy Pistols to be in calibers like .454 Casull, .50AE, etc. the difference of 3 Power and 1 Damage Level doesn't make sense. I believe that Lights should do M damage.
Still, d20 Modern damages are even more silly. This mostly comes into play when you consider a fight between 2 equally high-level runners in the two systems. My example fight will have to wait until tomorrow, however.
lose, do you realize how insanely difficult it is to kill someone with a light pistol, in SR? do you realize that people die every day because they mishandled a 'light pistol' and shot themselves by accident?
austere, re-read bullseye.
edit: oops, you said UMF. i don't have that. but in Spycraft, bullseye is power attack for single-shot ranged attacks.
austere, re-read bullseye.
edit: oops, you said UMF. i don't have that. but in Spycraft, bullseye is power attack for single-shot ranged attacks.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 18 2004, 06:36 PM) |
| lose, do you realize how insanely difficult it is to kill someone with a light pistol, in SR? do you realize that people die every day because they mishandled a 'light pistol' and shot themselves by accident? austere, re-read bullseye. |
Usually they shot themselves in a vital area, which would 'stage' the damage up from light to quite possibly deadly.
Not many people mess around with a gun, accidently shoot themselves in the leg, and die.. That's a Light wound, in my opinion, by the Shadowrun rules.
In reality, yes, mishaps occur. And, you know what? In my games, they also occur.
I've had a PC drop his gun, on a botch, the gun went off, and shot his partner in the gut.. He took a Serious wound, and passed out from blood loss after a few rounds.. If it hadn't been for the immediate first aid from the first PC, the second PC would have died due to a simple mishap.
A LOT of simple 'issues' you may have with a game can be circumvented by using simple logic.
d20 is a great system, for the most part. Almost everyone who plays it finds stuff they don't agree with, and using their logic, they create their own rules to change that part..
The same goes for SR..
The same goes for WoD..
The same goes for GURPS..
The same goes for ALL RPGs.
There is no such thing as the 'perfect' RPG, because we've all got our own expectations from it.
Personally, I want a gritty, lethal game, so I use a more dangerous variant of SR..
When I want a more heroic, powerful game, I use a variant d20 system..
House rules are every bit as much a part of RPGs as canon rules. I dare you to find a core system that doesn't mention house rules somewhere, and doesn't encourage you to use them when you feel a canon rule doesn't make sense.
If you find one, you have just found an inferior game system.
Edit: Oh, and it's not hard to kill an average person with a Light pistol.. All you have to do is get a good hit (which, for an unskilled person, can be quite difficult).. Your average human has a Body of 3, which would make it pretty fucking hard for them to stage down a wound from a power 6 (standard for a Light pistol)..
I've seen it done many times.. The veteran SR group breaks into the wrong office. Wage slave A happens to carry a Light pistol with her ever since her assault several years ago, and one of the runners crosses pathes with her, threatening her.. The runner fails to take the wage slave as a threat, and turns his back on her. She'll show him. She picks up her pistol, takes careful aim at the back of the runners head, and bam.. Dead runner.
Okay, that'll come in handy. Is the +5/-5 cap still there? If it is, it's still useful for low-caliber weapons. Sniping Mr Experienced CyberTroll with a Barrett and Bullseye will still be pretty damn frustrating, at an average of 18 damage per shot against 100+ hitpoints.
it's capped by BAB.
and lose--that's exactly my point. d20 isn't better or worse than SR--it's just got a different set of absurdities.
and lose--that's exactly my point. d20 isn't better or worse than SR--it's just got a different set of absurdities.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| it's capped by BAB. and lose--that's exactly my point. d20 isn't better or worse than SR--it's just got a different set of absurdities. |
I understand, and agree. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right, or that you're wrong.. Just that house rules exist for a logical reason, and no one has any reason to bitch about having to resort to them. If you don't like the rules, change them.. Or else go make your own fucking RPG system, and deal with the hell involed there..
| QUOTE (LoseAsDirected) | ||
I understand, and agree. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right, or that you're wrong.. Just that house rules exist for a logical reason, and no one has any reason to bitch about having to resort to them. If you don't like the rules, change them.. Or else go make your own fucking RPG system, and deal with the hell involed there.. |
If you choose the "make your own," make sure it isn't a knockoff of any system in existance. That includes using the d20 Open Source modules to make something, or copying SR rules, then adapting with house rules, or any of the like.
To me, SR does well. To you, it doesn't. Everybody likes different things. RPGs, food, their job, their kind of woman (man for you women out there), so on and so forth.
I personally do not like d20. Why? I just don't, plain and simple. You cannot tell me that rules make more sense, because to me, they don't. They might to you, but not to me.
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