The same sidebar says: "The vitality/wound system is intended to simulate the flow of most big-budget action features. Heroes in those movies dive through endless showers of lead before they take a single serious hit in the final reel." If you're going to go with that sidebar, then arguing that the Vitality/Wound Point system makes any god damn sense at all will be ... a bit difficult.

And even if you forget about any sense-making for a while and just consider Vitality Points dodging, it's a really bad rules mechanic for that. Why is a 7.62x54mmR shot harder to dodge than a 7.62x51mm shot? Why is a 10g shotgun shot harder to dodge than a 12g shotgun shot, which again is harder to dodge than a 20g shotgun shot? Why does a .22LR bolt-action rifle produce only half the amount of first-shot hits in a combat situation compared to a .30-06 bolt-action rifle? And the same for 7.62x39mm vs 5.56x45mm assault rifles, 7.62x51mm vs 5.56x45mm semi-auto rifles, 10g shotguns vs .50BMG rifles, etc.

The way damage works makes it unbelievable that Vitality Points are about dodging, near-misses or luck. Adding the fact that it's a big Constitution score and Feats like Toughness that add Vitality Points, not Dexterity or Intelligence or Wisdom or Feats like Dodge, Mobility, etc. and it just defies all logic that Vitality Points would be about anything else than simply "sucking it up" and being "built to last". And "sucking it up" when you've got a 4" diameter hole through the middle of your torso can prove a bit hard, if you are a mammal. (That includes ninjas.)

Edit:

The point being, yes D20 could be changed enough to make a reasonable facsimile of Shadowrun.

For example, instead of Vitality and Wounds, just say characters have Hit Points or Wounds equal to Con, or 2x Con, and that it doesn't increase unless Con does

However, the number of changes made would mean it would be quite different from most other D20 implementations. It could still be called D20 due to teh loose nature of the licence.

But if you're going to make that many changes, then could the current D6 SR system be made better with as many chances to change it?

austere, i said way back towards beginning that a starting SR char is closer to a level 5 d20 char. me and bw obviously disagree on that point.

you want to talk sense? let's talk Matrix, man. how the heck can you use the same unit to measure both processing power and storage? why do a bunch of people who break computer laws for a living pay tens of thousands of dollars for low-end programs that can easily be copied and shared? why can't anybody in the SR universe come up with an encryption scheme that's within a millionth of a percent of being as secure as the encryption we used ten years ago?

so why do we use it? part of the reason, of course, is that a lot of players just don't know any better. if they look into it at all, they satisfy themselves with a makeshift line about quantum computing without ever considering the massive ramifications that level of technology brings with it. we'll leave those players alone for now; they're happy, and that's all you can really ask from life.

the rest of the people who use SR's Matrix rules do so because they're quicker, cleaner, and more fun than the alternative. (in this case, the alternative involves writing a whole new ruleset. whee.) to be honest, the vitality/wound point rules work for the same reasons. like any set of RPG rules, they break down pretty quickly under close scrutiny; the Con bonus to VP--which i noted a post or so back!--is only the most glaring problem. but, on the whole, it hangs together fairly nicely; the action moves more quickly (when's the last time you resolved a combat turn in SR that didn't take up 5 minutes, minimum?), there's less bookkeeping ("uh... wait, no, i've still got one cp left. see, i rolled SUT last turn, and..."), and it's still fairly lethal to everyone who isn't the kind of character that we like to make fun of on these boards.

me? i like miring myself in the nitty-gritty details of combat. other people might feel such a detailed system starts to detract from character development. in which case, a faster-paced, looser system is the best one for the job.

well, there's the option in the back of Spycraft that does away with vitality altogether, and just goes with straight wound points.

The Matrix rules are there though, they are how the matrix works in the Shadowrun world. If implemented in a D20 setting I couldn't see them changing significantly the difficulty to decrypt a file, it just wouldn't make it practical to play a decker. Deckers are part of the SR world, even Legendary ones such as FastJack, you can't remove the effectiveness of them without also re-writing the background. I also have no trouble in believing that the rules for decking could be written for the D20 system and, if balanced, would rouse few tears from anyone.

Combat, however, is something which is featured and defined strongly in the D20 systems already. As can be evidenced from the previous arguments; many SR players prefer what they believe to be a more realistic mapping to actions in real life. With a substantial re-working of the combat (and leveling, and class) rules compared to current D20 systems, the D20 system could be reasonably realistic. If we get to that point then I agree that it's simply a matter of what probability distribution you prefer, but I would expect those who value realism to prefer gaussian distributions to the uniform distribution of the D20 due to the fact that much of what happens in nature can be described with a gaussian distribution where very little can be accurately modeled using a uniform distribution (except the rolling of a single die).

[edit]Well OK: Multiple D6 don't actually hive a gaussian distribution, but it's got the same shape. (A poisson distribution? I forget my stats...) [/edit]

Another point to consider:
Shadowrun character generation is highly different from any D20 character generation system I have seen. The simplest proximity to the current SR rules I could suggest would be to allow people to start as Xth level characters with few funds, 1st level characters with all the tech, or some compromise between the two.

Ack... I must stop smoking so much crack. I meant to say that not much can be modeled using a uniform distribution... Editing now...

While I have limited amount of experience dealing with the D20 system (I've only played DnD, L5R and Star Wars), I can tell you this: The older "Way of" books were of a lower quality than the present "Secrets of" books. They had less background material (or fluff as you call it), the additional character "classes" in the Way books weren't as balanced as the ones in "Secrets" and they couldn't "multi-class". Also the Destiny and Fate Tables were prone to rampant abuse.

i had a whole paragraph in my post about how i knew you were probably joking, but it detracted from my main point. 'sides, there are plenty of people out there who do see WotC as the Dice Nazis.

when i throw out defenses against arguments which haven't come up, it's because i've seen them come up before. call it a pre-emptive strike.

the opposing argument is that d20 isn't a lethal system. that's what me and austere have been going back and forth about for three pages, now!

you can say that high sales != popularity, but that doesn't make it so. it's not like three guys are going out and buying all the d20 products, to make d20 look more popular; people are buying it because they like it.

and as far as the 'simple system' argument... so? what, we've got an IQ minimum for RPGs, now? more players means a wider selection for your group to choose from--if you want only MENSA candidates, that just means there's more of them who are into gaming.

What are those figures from? Are they based on the sales of the basic WOTC book sales (D&D, D20 Modern ETC) or do they also cover the huge array of D20 booklets and pre-fab adventures that are available? If the latter, then I would suggest that those figures may not actually represent the popularity of the system as a whole, but the that many of the people who do play it will buy many, many D20 products in the form of Race books and pre-fab adventures rather than making the stuff up themselves.

IMHO, what makes things worse is that these rules expansions don't need to be playtested and thus many contain imbalanced rules which players will happily buy for their character to become more powerful.

you're holding up SR as your shining example of fully-tested gamebooks? why are there always so many errors in them, then--not just little stuff, like plastering "Chemestry" across the top of an entire section of one book, but stuff like having SMGs as the only weapon skill for secguards armed with nothing but pistols and ARs!

gamebooks don't make balanced games. players and GMs make balanced games.

Haha, what book was that? I think I'm going to run that just for kicks!

survival of the fittest. it's a good module, with a neat story and good writing. but somebody definitely missed something, somewhere along the line. if you look through most of the books with an eye towards detail, you'll find a plethora of errata-worthy oopses like that. i don't have a problem with that, per se; no one's perfect, and i'll take stuff like that over getting the book late(r!). but it's definitely a valid counterpoint to the argument that was made.

More damaging weapons don't "wear down" your luck, constitution and dodging ability. They kill you dead. And so do less damaging weapons whenever they hit well (far more often than 1/20 hits). That was the point.

If a game doesn't portray this, then I have a hard time calling it lethal. Getting rid of Vitality Points in d20 Spycraft goes a long way towards lethality. d20 Modern is a lot less so, far less than SR.

Hi,
one thing that is repeatedly complained is that the Shadowrun rules are fine and thus there is no need for another rules system if you want to play Shadowrun. True, but suppose a long-year D&D player sees Shadowrun somewhere, is fascinated with the world and the genre in general. Would learning a new set of rules (especially one as complex as Shadowrun's) not deter him from trying Shadowrun and encourage him to stick with his tried and true D&D?
So, in my opinion a more or less generic rules set, like D20 or GURPS, has its place if you frequently want to try a new genre or a new background.

tbd

i didn't respond to the "small groups buying lots of books" point because it's not really a point--it's just speculation that happens to back up your view of things. i could just as easily say that it's only a small group of SR players that are buying up all the books. who's to say i'm right?

my point about the fallibility of SR books was that if the text doesn't get read often enough before printing to catch errors like that, how can you expect that it's been read--much less played--often enough to determine whether it's balanced? but if people still play SR even though it's not verifiably balanced--and verifiably unbalanced, in many cases--then doesn't that mean that balance is determined more by the group, than the game?

newbie players aren't going to run balanced games, no matter what ruleset they use. they don't have to; nobody has to. it's not up to a game to enforce 'role-playing over roll-playing', and never has been (unless you ask white wolf). if someone wants to start focusing less on numbers and more on character, that's up to them. and, truthfully, if it were up to the game to encourage a stronger focus on character development, which one's going to do it better--one where a single round of combat usually takes five to ten minutes to resolve, or one where all you have to do is roll one die and add your modifier?

you do realize that WotC has nothing to do with most of the Rokugan books being put out? AEG does them; if you're going to blame someone, blame them.

how am i giving anybody any credit at all? are people buying d20 products even though they don't like them and won't use them? is WotC secretly sending out its agents to buy d20 products, so that all the other systems will be driven into the ground? honestly, i don't even understand what we're 'disagreeing' about--all you've said, basically, is "nuh-uh!"

"today's youth?" c'mon, dude, you sound like a sixties anti-drug ad. today's youth are just as smart as you were; if they play d20 and realize they want a more realistic system, they'll look for one--and somebody, somewhere, will be selling one.

besides which, isn't that incredibly analogous to the long-time SR players here, who won't play D&D because it's not their tried-and-true SR? oh, no, of course not--they've all tried that D&D stuff, and they've got good reasons for not liking it! those D&D players really just need to grow up and try new things.

!! oops. so, WotC owns L5R? wow. that's pretty slick.

of course marketing has something to do with sales figures. but marketing has very little to do with the fact that sales of d20 products continues to be strong. if everybody who bought d20 were unsatisfied with their purchase, a) they wouldn't buy it anymore, and b) they'd tell all their friends how much it sucks, and their friends wouldn't buy it either. it's apparent that most d20 purchasers are satisfied with what they get, because a) they keep buying it, and b) their friends are buying it.

i've said that strong sales equals popularity. you've said that i'm giving the consumer public more credit than they deserve. this is a statement which has, as far as i can tell, no bearing on my statement, and does not help you prove your apparent point that strong sales does not equal popularity. i'm looking for some kind of statement which proves my original statement wrong--until you do, "uh-huh!" is a perfectly acceptable response, on my part; there's nothing else i can say, because you've got no points for me to engage you on. at least my straw men were valid points!

every generation thinks the one that follows is stupid, lost, and blind. given as how the entire world hasn't gone to pot, i think it's safe to say that each successive generation proves its progenitors wrong. the diff between you and me is that i recognize this trend, and instead of saying "these kids must just be stupid," i attempt to understand their alien logic. it's called a 'generation gap', and it's been going on since cain and able decided fig leaves sucked. what makes this generation any different?

Hi,
concerning the lethality of d20: We played our Shadowrun d20 today and the players experienced the lethality the hard way.
First, to those who might have overread my previous posts: we are not using standard d20 Modern but made some changes including weapon damage rules for burst and autofire, use damage reducing armor, no classes and levels.

The players (1st level elk shaman and 2nd level gunfu-adept) were sent to western China to investigate the impact of weapon sales to a local warlord on the power balance of the region. Having rented a vehicle, they drove in the direction in which the deliveries had been spotted. After a short while, they ran into a patrol consisting of 3 1st-level soldiers and were told that they were in a restricted military zone.
Since they did not agree with that, the adept (having Killing Hands level 3), hit one soldier who had approached the vehicle to tell them where they were, breaking his neck (5 hit points of the soldier vs. 9 points of damage, reduced by 3 because of an armored vest).
The other two soldiers took cover behind their jeep and opened burst fire with their AKs. The characters stepped out of the vehicle and threw grenades at their opponents, missing big time. They went down under 2-3 bursts each.

So it was 2 characters, one of which had completed some runs (halfway from 2nd level to 3rd level), lost against 2 soldiers with AK-97s and cover behind a jeep. No major mojo or heavy weapons were used.

Now, for those with more extensive Shadowrun experience, how would such a situation have been resolved using the standart Shadowrun rules?

tbd

I think the biggest difference between my generation (I'm pushing 30) and those half my age is that I had choice about RPGs - D&D was popular, but going back to the late 80s, early 90s there were hundreds (literally) of RPGs to buy, and stores actually stocked them - Virgin used to sell games. Heck, Games Workshop used to sell RPGs (I still think Warhammer is one of the best two games ever). There was a time when you could actually start talking about RPGs in public and have a reasonable chance of a random person understanding (I still believe that negative coverage of the hobby following suicides HELPED promote it).

How many people owned "Choose you own adventure" books (or even better, Fighting Fantasy)? How many people watched Knightmare on TV? These were all fringes of the hobby, but drew people in.

Unfortunately it moved from a hobby/cottage industry to big business - not just WoTC/Hasbro, but other companies as well. GW sell little lumps of lead - every other product is designed to sell more lead. Trading cards games (whilst fun - I've even got into Yu-gi-Oh after my son wanted the cards) are designed purely to sell more cards (I blame Magic: The Gathering for that one).

Computer games became a replacement for "proper" gaming and although it'll never be the same it can be a decent diversion for a while (I've said before about my love of Baldur's Gate). What should be a launch into the hobby becomes a competitor instead.

It's been stated already that the popularity of D&D is been used to sell D20 to other environs and replacing native rules. It's all a further erosion of choice - already it's difficult enough to buy any RPG that's not D20 and it will get more difficult - the best gaming store in my area (and the only one close enough for me to just pop in for a browse) stocks less SR stuff than it did a couple of years ago - there's more D20 stuff (in my perception). Of course, they also stock comics, action figures, game cards which propably make more profit for them. Apart from there I don't know where I can buy RPGs anymore - and I'm actively looking - what chance does anybody have of stumbling into it? (BTW if anyone knows any good stores in the Yorkshire area apart from Travelling Man, or good online stores in the UK I'll take suggestions).

Hence "youngsters" today have less choice than I did, which will mean ultimately (if not immediately) less experimentation. It doesn't matter one iota whether anyone thinks D20 is good or not - if it's the only game in town we'll all ultimately buy into it. Truth is, consumers are stupid - people pay over the odds for crappy electrical equipment (especially PCs) because they don't know better. People put up with crap, underspecced, overpriced cars because they're not aware of the alternatives. People fill themselves with junk food. People watch crap TV constantly. People pay for crap video games. Quite simply the majority of everything is complete and utter rubbish.

I'm proud to be in a minority that has taste, decency and a sense of perspective.

Who's with me?

right. dude, everybody says they're part of that minority. what makes you special?

if we continue to chase this rabbit, it's going to completely derail the main discussion, so i'm gonna let it get away.

you make it sound as if d20 is just magically forcing every other game off the shelf. the reason it's doing so is that people like it. if other games want to maintain their shelf space, they need to improve and put out better offerings--that's how business works, that's what it is.

D20 hasn't forced games of other systems off the shelves. Plenty of systems are available now and some of them are actually pretty good. In fact, gaming product is now available in more places than ever before - even SR & CBT made it back to major retailers this year. There may've been more systems in the good ole days (I started in the mid-late 70's), but most of them were terrible and few of them sold at all. The boom in card games, collectible miniatures games, console games, and computer games is what took a massive toll on the tabletop RPG market. I'm not upset about it, the market preferences just shifted.

The new gamer is not likely to ever consider playing a tabletop RPG. Those companies that recognize this realize that there are few alternatives. First, you can latch onto a niche market, hope that there's little competition, and attempt to hang on for as long as you can. Second, you can homogenize systems to better support the market (easy for customers to change games) and reduce development costs. Third, you can give up tabletop RPGs and go with the trend. Fourth, massive advertising (very costly and not likely to pay off). Fifth, you can just close up shop. FanPro, for better or worse, chose the first.

Up until very recently, if you asked most local game stores about SR or CBT materials, they would tell you that they haven't been published since FASA fell. No major retailers carried them at all. Only the internet and a handful of stores run by and/or populated with die-hard FASA fans kept the word out. Eventually, WizKids boosted the CBT image with MWDA and SR rode its coat-tails. Neither SR nor CBT are selling particularly well, because they're old games. Most of the people that would buy them did buy them and a fair number of those people don't buy them anymore. Worse, few new customers are coming in.

I'm not complaining. I still get great SR & CBT material from FanPro and I buy it happily, but I see very few others buying it that weren't old FASA gamers. We're the iron lung keeping those games alive. Absent some big change in the market or in the game, bad things are probably on the horizon. As old FASA gamers either stop buying the stuff or slow down their purchasing, it's going to be hard to justify production. I don't know what sort of profits FanPro pulls in, but my guess is that things are pretty tight.

Anyway, back to d20. WotC chose to homogenize game systems and the results were d20 and the OGL. Their costs are low, because much of the game system work is already done, tested, and ready for print. They can devote more time and money to background materials, artwork, and other things that really make a game shine. Likewise, new game companies can adhere to the OGL and save themselves a lot of time and money. No other gaming company allows open use of a good, balanced, game system. It was a bold step and it's paid off. WotC could've kept d20 in-house, with no licensing. No outside source material or games would use the d20 system and customers would be limited to whatever WotC chose to put out. WotC would've been just like every other game company out there, but they chose differently.

Nothing prevents FanPro or any other game company from doing the same, except possibly that nobody wants their systems. I say, what's the worst that could happen? Open the system license, let anyone who wants to make unofficial game material get to work, and let's see how it shakes out. It's gotta be better than just getting 3-5 books/year, right?

I can't go to any store in my area (that carries RPG books) and find anything that isn't made by either White Wolf or D20..

I think you guys just have bad gaming stores. I can get pretty much anything I want (SOTA:2063 being a notable exception) at local game stores. The B&N and Borders here both carry d20, SR, CBT, WW, GURPS, Marvel, L5R, and others. I still order online (cheaper and it's delivered right to my door), but I've never had a problem finding non-d20 material.

Well, back in the day, when I was in America the only RPG I could ever find in a major bookstore was d20 D&D. No exeptions.
I think the local gaming store sported a bit more than that but it could also have been that they didn't have any RPGs at all.

Here in Germany I can't find any RPGs in the bookstores. The only place I can get them here is in gaming shops which are few and far between.
My favorite has quite a large selection, however they have very few SR books (only one board in a shelf) and the rest is made up of d20, White Wolf, GURPS (about as much as shadowrun) and a dazzling variety of RPGs I haven't even heard of before.

Finland rocks. Well, okay, we might have to pay +50% or more on the price the books cost in the US, but at least we've got a lot of variety. No Shadowrun on the shelves in my city(/town, pop. ~150,000), but you can find just about everything else. And the lack of Shadowrun is understandable, because there appears to be something like 20 SR players here, and none very active.

Using shelf-meters as a measurement, I think d20 takes up about 5-10 out of 40 or 50 in the local store.