which i'm absolutely, positively fine with. what gets me riled up is when people say they dislike d20--or any system--for reasons that just ain't so. and then make fun of d20 players, for those imaginary reasons!

I'm not telling you to use d20.. I can understand your disdain for it.. Again, I don't use d20 because I want a realistic game.. To me, it's easier to just play an SR game with all my house rules when I want a more realistic game than it is to play a REALLY low powered d20 game..

Boo! Trying to bring closure to the argument!

as long as it closes when i'm right !!

Arguments never have a real winner, because both sides end up making asses out of themselves anyway.

Yes, this applies to me.

Is it a wonder that my favorite song is Denis Leary's own "Asshole?"

i prefer Spycraft's armor system, anyway. it provides DR instead of AC, but you take half of the damage as subdual. or something like that, don't recall exactly.

Tough Cybered Troll, lvl 5 ("T")
S18 D10 C28 I5 W12 C6
HP: 85, MasDam: 28
F/R/W: +12/+1/+2
Def: +3
AP: 31
BAB: +3
5 Feats
3 Talents
Military Starting Occupation (Personal Firearms)

Robust, DR1, DR2
Simple Weapons, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, Personal Firearms, Great Fortitude, Toughness

Titanium Bone Lacing (+4 Con, +1 Natural Armor)
Dermal Sheath-3 (+4 Con, +1 Natural Armor)
Boosted Reflexes (+4 Init)
Smartlink (+1 Attack with linked weapons)

Forced Entry Unit Armor (+9 Def)
Defiance T-250 (As Mossberg 12G except with 5int Magazine, Smartlinked)
20 12g Slugs
10 Frag Grenades

Total Atk: 3+1 = 4 (3)

Total Def: 10+3+9+1 = 23 (22)

Init: 1d20+4

Fast Cybered Human, lvl 5 ("F")
S12 D21 C17 I10 W10 C8
HP: 41, MasDam: 17
F/R/W: +4/+10/+1
Def: +5
AP: 31
BAB: +3
5 Feats
3 Talents
Law Enforcement Starting Occupation (Personal Firearms Proficiency)

Evasion, Uncanny Dodge 1, Defensive Roll
Simple Weapons, Light Armor, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Double Tap, Personal Firearms

Wired Reflexes (+1 Attack or Move action per Round, +4 Init)
Dermal Sheath-1 (+2 Con)
Smartlink (+1 Attack with linked weapons)
Suprathyroid Gland (+1 Str, Dex, Con)
Muscle Toner-4 (+4 Dex)

Undercover Vest (+3 Def)
Ares Predator II (2d6, Crit 20, 40ft, S, 15 box, Medium, 4lbs, Smartlinked)
75 rounds/5 mags of Predator ammo

Total Atk: 3+5+1 = 9

Init: 1d20+9

Total Def: 10+5+3+5 = 23, +1

T meets F in an alleyway. Combat ensues.

28 ft, no surprise, even ground
Inits 29, 9
F1: Prone, DT+7vs22 11 +AP6 (30/31) hit 9-2 7 damage (78/85, 13/15), DT+7vs22 3 miss (11/15)
T1: Prone, grenade -1vs10 4 4 1 7.5ft long, F Ref DC15 3 +AP6 (29/31) Evaded
F2: +9vs26 3 miss (10/15), +9vs26 16 +AP2 (28/31) hit 5-2 3 damage (75/85, 9/15)
T2: Grenade -1vs10 12 4 2.5ft, F Ref DC15 20 Evaded
F3: +9vs26 6 miss (8/15), +9vs26 12 miss (7/15)
T3: Grenade -1vs10 5 8 7.5ft left, F Ref DC15 17 Evaded
F4: +9vs26 7 miss (6/15), +9vs26 15 +AP6 (27/31) hit 5-2 3 damage (72/85, 5/15)
T4: Grenade -1vs10 6 2 7.5ft long, F Ref DC15 4 +AP5 (26/31) Evaded
F5: DT+7vs26 8 miss (3/15), DT+7vs26 4 miss (1/15)
T5: Grenade -1vs10 11 3 2.5ft, F Ref DC15 17 Evaded
F6: +9vs26 4 miss (0/15), Reload (4/5), DT+7vs26 4 miss (13/15)
T6: Grenade -1vs10 13 4 2.5ft, F Ref DC15 2 +AP3 (25/31) Evaded
F7: DT+7vs26 11 miss (11/15), DT+7vs26 1 miss (9/15)
T7: Grenade -1vs10 5 4 7.5ft right, F Ref DC15 4 +AP3 (24/31) Evaded
F8: DT+7vs26 16 +AP1 (23/31) miss (7/15), DT+7vs26 3 miss (5/15)
T8: Grenade -1vs10 8 1 7.5ft long, F Ref DC15 7 Evaded
F9: DT+7vs26 16 +AP3 (22/31) hit 8-2 6 damage (66/85, 3/15), DT+7vs26 14 +AP2 (21/31) miss (1/15)
T9: Grenade -1vs10 17 2 2.5ft, F Ref DC15 5 Evaded
F10: +9vs26 5 miss (0/15), Reload (3/5), DT+7vs26 17 +AP4 (20/31) hit 10-2 8 damage (58/85, 13/15)
T10: Grenade (last) -1vs10 19 1 2.5ft, F Ref DC15 2 +AP2 (19/31) 13 damage (28/41)
F11: DT+7vs26 2 miss (11/15), DT+7vs26 7 miss (9/15)
T11: +3vs28 1 miss (4/5)
F12: DT+7vs26 10 miss (7/15), DT+7vs26 1 miss (5/15)
T12: +3vs28 20 10 hit 10 damage (18/41, 3/5)
F13: DT+7vs26 7 miss (3/15), DT+7vs26 7 miss (1/15)
T13: +3vs28 7 miss (2/5)
F14: +9vs26 16 +AP2 (18/31) hit 3-2 1 damage (57/85, 0/15), Reload (2/5), DT+7vs26 17 +AP3 (17/31) hit 12-2 10 damage (47/85, 13/15)
T14: +3vs28 16 miss (1/5)
F15: DT+7vs26 12 miss (11/15), DT+7vs26 16 +AP5 (16/31) 11-2 9 damage (36/85, 9/15)
T15: +3vs28 15 miss (0/5)
F16: DT+7vs26 16 +AP1 (15/31) miss (7/15), DT+7vs26 7 miss (5/15)
T16: Reload (15/20)
F17: DT+7vs26 15 +AP3 (14/31) miss (3/15), DT+7vs26 8 miss (1/15)
T17: +3vs28 14 miss (4/5)
F18: +9vs26 5 miss (0/15), Reload (1/5), DT+7vs26 7 miss (13/15)
T18: +3vs28 6 miss (3/5)
F19: DT+7vs26 13 +AP3 (13/31) miss (11/15), DT+7vs26 18 +AP1 (12/31) hit 4-2 2 damage (34/85, 9/15)
T19: +3vs28 3 miss (2/5)
F20: DT+7vs26 16 +AP4 (11/31) hit 9-2 7 damage (27/85, 7/15), DT+7vs26 8 miss (5/15)
T20: +3vs28 9 miss (1/5)
F21: DT+7vs26 1 miss (3/15), DT+7vs26 19 hit 11-2 9 damage (18/85, 1/15)
T21: +3vs28 20 14 hit 10 damage (8/41, 0/5)
F22: +9vs26 16 +AP5 (10/31) hit 10-2 8 damage (10/85, 0/15), Stands up, Runs away 30ft
T22: Reload
F23: Runs away 120ft, Runs away 30ft
T23: +3vs42 1 miss (4/5)
F24: Runs away 120ft, Runs away 30ft
T24: Walks to Stuffer Shack

Well, okay, it's not that bad at level 5. But one thing to remember: Do not throw grenades at japanese girls in school outfits, they'll never take any damage.

Armor providing DR certainly makes more sense. Then just give Rifles a modifier to the armor (e.g. -2, -4 with AP ammo), and .50BMG a bigger modifier (e.g. -4, -8 with AP ammo). Too bad there's no d16, because a Barrett would be better off at 2d16. As such, the long range magnums (like .338 Lapua) are better off at 2d12 and the .50BMG weapons at 2d20.

In a nutshell: Troll took 8 double-taps and 4 normal hits from the Ares Predator and ended up with a "Serious wound" (10/85). This isn't bad considering that the Troll was wearing the heaviest possible armor -- however, feel free to run the same thing without any armor, and the same amount of hits will result in the same amount of damage. Also, at least without those Spycraft rules, Mr Troll would still be capable of doing whatever he wanted to, as long as this action did not include taking 10 or more damage.

The Sammie took one grenade blast and 2 shotgun hits and also ended up with "Serious wound" (8/41). In SR, taking the same amount of hits, he'd've certainly been a goner, considering that he was only wearing a light vest. Now he can just walk home, and will be sure to pack more ammo next time he goes wandering into dark alleys.

Can I just point-out that if citing variants of the D20 system (such as Spycraft & Cthulu) is acceptable then so too is citing house-rules ETC applied to the SR system. Neither are truly part of the core system.

D&D isn't the core sytem of d20, either. House rules aren't canon. Rules from d20 games are canon examples of d20 system variations. There's a world of difference there.

But I want a Shapeshifter Otaku Shaman and can SR give me that?

I never issued a challenge for someone to give me a concept that I couldn't create with the SR system, did I?

After SURGE and if you don't mind being stuck in human form, sure.

I don't see how anyone can come up with a schizoprenic PaladinBarb in a roleplaying sense either. Otherwise I will call it munchkin.

I want character that gets better with throwing knives,but not bows.

Take Thrown Weapons 1 (Throwing Knives X), where X is your desired skill with Throwing Knives..

Remember, you don't HAVE to increase the base skill to improve a specialization.

You do.

Spec. can't increase past twice the base skill.

And bows and throwing weapons are different skills, anyhoo.

In shadowrun you can,d20 with BAB,you can't!

Don't worry about it.

Mistakes are life.

i use throwing weapons all the time. grenades = handy.

"a character that gets better with throwing knives,but not bows" isn't a character type, it's a rules mechanic. hell, it's not even a sentence until you start using a few more spaces. you want a character who doesn't use bows? don't pick up a bow.

a paladin/barbarian? okay. pal1, change align, barb1. atonement, align change, pal2, align change, barb 2. atonement, align change, pal3, barb3. rinse, wash repeat. monk/bard? play Oriental Adventures, as a character who's lived part of his life in gaijin lands.

next?

edit: oh, L5R. have you even looked at the books? 'cos, see, i have, and i noticed right off the bat that the new books have stat blocks for both L5R and d20 Rokugan.

Your Paladin/Barbarian is still moot, because half the time it wont have access to Paladin abilities, and half the time it wont have access to Barbarian abilities..

And the Monk/Bard thing is a good point. I forgot Monks could cross class freely in Oriental Adventures.

My point is, I hate alignments and the restrictions created by them.. But that's a D&D issue, not a d20 issue..

that's no more restrictive than the fact that, in SR, you can't play an otaku who casts spells. besides, i said 'character concept', not 'class combo', so your point is moot.

No, my point ISN'T moot, because the character concept IS a Paladin/Barbarian..

And you've failed to do that, yet again.

Honestly, do we want to argue semantics (which will get us nowhere), or just let this go? It was a joke in the first place.. My beef on this is based on a D&D issue that is as old as D&D itself (alignments), and not the d20 system. I understand that, you understand that.. We're both at an understanding, so why bother with semantics?

I have nothing against the d20 system itself.. I think that, as far as class/level based RPGs go, it's the best there is..

That said, I'm not a huge fan of class/level based RPGs.. I prefer systems with more open ended character creation aspects, something most (key word) d20 games don't provide without house rules.

then why did you say d20 'ruined' L5R, when the game is still being published with L5R rules?

if your concept is just a barbarian paladin, then i'll either make a paladin who runs around in fur underwear swinging an axe, or a barbarian who's dedicated his life to fighting for a particular god. class combo != character concept.

I NEVER said d20 ruined L5R.. Someone else said that..

Also, I'm not a big fan of L5R regardless of the system..

And, yes.. Class combo does = character concept.. It's just a really simplified version of a character concept.. Stop trying to use fucking semantics to argue your way out of being wrong. You're wrong. It's pointless. I've dropped it. Have the fucking sense to do the same. It was a fucking joke from the start, and you've been too ignorant to realise it.

Now, look.. I'm sorry everyone else is against you on this issue (myself included), but you're not doing much good. You're an advocate for the d20 system on a fucking Shadowrun board.. What did you think would happen? That you'd sway us to your side? Half of us have been playing SR since 2nd edition or earlier, and of that half, another half don't like class/level systems, period, no matter how you slice it or dice it. You're fighting a losing battle.

I don't doubt that you know gobs about the d20 system.. And I'm not saying that it is an inferior system. If you're into class/level systems, then it's the fucking cream of the crop.. But most of us just don't dig class/level systems.

*breathes*

Sorry about the hostility.. But I get mad when someone takes a joke and twists it into some sort of arugment. It was stupid of both of us to let it get this far.

the difference between SR and d20 is, in SR, your charcter starts out at about 5th level. you've already been there, you've already done that, you're pretty much who you're going to be for the rest of the game. in d20, you get to play out your character creation in-game, starting out as a snot-nosed punk and working your way up to badass.

actually, you haven't dropped it, because you're still trying to prove your point. class combo is a stat block, not a character concept. if you say "i'm a rogue/sorcerer", that gives me no clue about who your character is or what he does. i can make twenty different rog/sorcs of the same level, and they'll all be completely different. that's like saying "i have the SMG skill" is a character concept.

i've successfully debunked every other protest that's come up, and i'm working on debunking this one. as far as i'm trying to "win" or "lose" anything, i don't call that "losing".

You? I've played SR since SR2 and D20 since Ed2. I like them both. Because both are flawed and would do to use some stuff from each other.

It's a piece of fucking cake to make weaker SR characters..

Either use the building point system, give the players less points, limit their starting funds (I prefer to just limit the players to a max of 90,000 nuyen), and limit them to gear of an availability of 4 or less. BAM! Instant 'low level' SR game.

If you don't like the BPS, then just tweak the priority chart a bit..

Priority Race__ Magic_ Attributes Skills Resources
A_Otaku/Shifter_Full____24_____34___90,000
B_______-____Partial__ 21_____30___40,000
C____Elf/Troll___-_____18_____27___20,000
D__Dwarf/Ork___-_____16_____24___5,000
E____Human__None____14_____22____500

There you have it.. Low level priority system.. That took me.. What? 5 minutes (and half of that was just typing it out)

it's just as easy to make more advanced d20 characters. just start the game at 5th level.

i'm trying to have a debate, here. you getting pissed off isn't helping. chill out.

i've debunked the idea that you have to kill things to get XP. i've debunked the idea that d20 can't be a lethal system. i've debunked the idea that SR's firearms are more realistic than d20's. i've debunked the idea that d20 killed the L5R system. and i'm working on debunking the idea that SR is less restrictive than d20. i've done all this things with hard examples and by-the-book facts.

class combo is only one way of looking at character creation. if you can't get your class combo, you have to figure out what it is about the class combo that you want. if you want to be a holy warrior who rages, i might suggest Oriental Adventure' sohei class, which is pretty much a paladin who gets rage as a class feature. if you want the laying on hands ability, you should multiclass as a sohei/hospitaler, from defenders of the faith. if you want the smite evil ability, pick up two levels of holy liberator; that also gets you your divine grace ability. 5 levels of holy liberator will give you your mount. you also get divine spellcasting abilities from all those classes.

barbarian/paladin, QED. next?

You smarmy, ignorant little prick..

If you're going to blow everything off like that, then I have no more time to waste on your meaningless crusade. This will be my last post on this issue until you admit that my joke got the better of your 'quest'..

Again, you've yet to 'debunk' a goddamn thing, because all you've done is shown that YOU like the way the d20 system handles certain issues.. Well guess what, genius.. The whole fucking world doesn't agree with you.. I certainly don't.. Others on this board don't. So stop acting as if your opinions are fucking facts.

Yes you can do plenty of things with the d20 system.. I've never said otherwise. I tried to back you up on this issue many times by saying that it's a good system.. But it's still a class/level system, and they are still restricted to class/level issues..

Oh, and I'll 'chill out' when you gain some common sense and admit that you're not the end-all, be-all authority when it comes to 'debunking' something.. In fact, as I understand it, someone else should at least agree with you before it can even be considered a valid point, and I don't see anyone rallying behind your banner just yet. Seems to me like all you've done so far is shown that the d20 system can be tweaked if you take such-and-such source book ($20), and such-and-such source book ($25).. And that's fucking pointless. Not everyone has an unlimited amount of funds to constantly shell out for new sourcebooks just so we have a canon reason for a character.. Some of us just want the flexibility that is granted from a non-class/level system that only requires a single book for the vast majority of the rules (kinda like SR does)..

And I never said I wanted to be a Paladin that could rage.. Or a Barbarian that could lay on hands.. I said a Paladin/Barbarian.. I want the best (and, indeed, ALL) of both worlds.. But that can't be done.. And, once again (just to hammer it into that thick fucking skull of yours) I made this challenge in jest, knowing full well that it couldn't be done, and that the problem lies in the D&D alignment issues, and not the d20 system.. So just get a sense of humor and admit that my little joke challenge cannot be met, and that it's pointless to argue over it, because it was, indeed, a fucking joke.

I REALLY wanted to support you on this issue, but you've QUICKLY lowered my opinion of you. You wont win this battle, because it's not possible to win. There is NO way (canonwise) to EVER have a Paladin/Barbarian in a D&D game (1st edition, AD&D 2nd edition, D&D 3rd edition, or even D&D 3.5..)..

am i wrong about any facts i've posted? do you have to kill things to gain xp, in d20? no, and i've shown page numbers which prove it. can d20 be a lethal system? yes, and i've given examples. are SR's firearm rules as absurd as d20's? yes, and i've shown a multitude of examples. for the record, i did get people to agree with me, on those last two. is the L5R system now out of print? no, and i've shown what books you can find it being published in.

you're so stuck on the class system that you can't see past it. you're saying that a class combo is a character concept; i'm saying that it's a means to achieving a concept. d20's class system is only limiting if you restrict yourself to looking at your character as just his class combo. so, yes, if you tie yourself up with limitations that don't, by the rules, exist, then the class system is limiting. there's no way, by canon, to have a character who gains the class abilities associated with the barbarian and the paladin, if you restrict yourself to taking only the paladin and barbarian classes. the fact that you can overcome that limitation by taking other character classes is my entire point.

the whole point of the d20 system is that it can be tweaked. that's one of the reasons i like it--i can toss together whatever rules i want, and i can even publish those rules and never pay WotC a dime for the privilege.

Quit it, both of you. Jeez, you want the Admins to come in and put an end to this thread?

LoseAsDirected, you can get a paladin/barb if you can find a D20 system expansion that offers it. There are hundreds of expansions, one of them just might give you what you want. The class/level issue is restrictive only if you follow only one game world in DnD. There are other game worlds in the DnD rules set. One of them may just give you what you want. D12 hitpoints for every level with rage and smite and lay on hands and faster movement. There is currently 4 game worlds supported by DnD rules, each has its own perculiar classes which sometimes overwrite the original DnD rules/classes.

Yes, you made it in jest, thinking it couldn't be done. But what mfb has shown is perhaps it can be done.

Oh, I'm done. As I said, I'm not wasting my time with him.. He's so sure that he's right, and he's just spouting rhetorical nonsense and pointless opinions.

I don't agree with his opinion that the d20 system is as flexible as SR. I've played both for about 7 years, and it has been my experience (and, thus, my opinion), that SR is far more flexible, makes more sense, is significantly more lethal, is far more realistic, handles firearms much better than, and is overall just plain better than D&D or any of the other d20 system games. Again, it's MY OPINION.. See? I can admit that.. He can't. So, I says 'fuck 'em'.

the basic argument here is about the viability of the d20 system, lose. you can't argue that, and then say "oh, well all those other d20 products don't count, because i was talking about D&D." half of the arguments in this thread have been about non-D&D products; you can't just all of the sudden say that we were're only discussing D&D.

and it's my opinion that neither system is perfect. i've stated that several times throughout this thread, but you insist on getting all steamed up about it.

It's more fun when you're steamed.

i agree, but the admins have a nasty habit of banning you if you get too steamed. and banned posters can't argue.