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Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mfb)
i already did do it. the most the shooter can do in SR is an S wound, if he gets all 4 successes (skill + cp). a Spycraft / Star Wars character could concievably kill a 12WP char with one shot of a 2d6 or 1d10 pistol. it's not likely, but it's at least possible.

With Spycraft rules, the probability of killing a Con 12 character with one shot from a 9x19 pistol is ... 0%. No can do, since a critical hit in d20 Spycraft doesn't double damage, so in fact a weapon that does 1d10 can never kill someone with 12WP (no matter his VPs) with a single hit, unless you've got additional Feats that increase damage. With a weapon that does 2d6 (significantly more powerful than a Light Pistol in SR, equivalent of an SR SMG in d20 Spycraft), the probability of a single-hit kill against a Con 12 character is 0.28%, 10% from a crit threat and 1/36 to roll 2 6s.

And if you have Feats that increase damage (Bullseye for example), then a similar SR character would have quite enough dice to pump that damage up to Deadly. Only in SR, he doesn't have to get really damn lucky to begin with -- scoring 6+ 4s on 8 dice is much more likely than rolling a single 20 on d20.

Now if you get rid of Vitality Points and put all damage straight to Wound Points, you get rid of the problem.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (ting-bu-dong)
Now, how would in shadowrun a cop deal with (Str)L and many successes from the adept? How many throwing stars would he take with combat pool and an armored vest?

A "4th level" master of the trade should have the Spec of 7 mentioned by Cain. Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot translate to Missile Mastery in this case, and let's give him Improved Ability: Throwing Weapons 3 (ImpAb-6 is a bit over the capabilities of a 4th level character, but that isn't significant here). 18 Str translates to ... Strength 7?

The shuriken do 9L (Strength 7 + 2 from Missile Mastery). The adept can throw at least 17 dice when throwing them. A Lone Star cop might have a CP of 5, Body 4, and any armor up to an Armored Jacket won't reduce the soaking TN under 6, so I'll go with 6 (an Armored Vest would actually be far worse off, but I'll cut you some slack here). 17 dice vs TN 4 to attack: 8.5 successes on average. 5 dice vs TN 4 to dodge: 2.5 successes on average. 4 dice vs TN 6 to soak: 0.8 successes on average.

That's a Serious wound from the first Shuriken, the second will put the cop well beyond Deadly.
DigitalMage
QUOTE
bwdemon wrote:
Damage for ranged weapons can change based on several different factors.  To provide an example, I'll stick with the longbow from D&D 3.5. 

None of which had anything to do with skill levels.

The Feats thing does count as training but that is where D20 muddies the waters - is a person with a +10 BAB a better shot than one with BAB +6? It depends on the Feats, as the +6 BAB may no hit as often but could do more damage when he does.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a +10 BAB inflicts the same damage, albeit more often, than a +1 BAB character using the same weapon and neitehr having extra feats. The only benefit (and it could be considered significant, I haven't done the maths) is that the +10 BAB character will more likely confirm any Critical Threats rolled.

QUOTE
bwdemon wrote:
As far as drain goes, I've already mentioned my preferred mechanic: roll your save/check to see if you resisted.  If not, then you take random damage, which reflects how badly your attempt went.

It is the Random bit that I hate, and also the fact that if you make the roll you take absolutely no drain whatsoever. Too much uncertainty - in SR3 a player can think "Well I can't stage drain to nothing, but I should only take a Moderate, or if I'm lucky a Light Wound" whereas under your suggestion a mage would think "Well I have a fair chance of taking no drain, but if I fail my roll I have as much chance to take full drain as I have minimal drain".

It all goes back to SR's dice mechanic, the more dice you roll, the more consistent and predicatable your dice result is.

QUOTE
bwdemon wrote:
Some players have a hard time wrapping their accepting and/or wrapping their minds around a mechanic where one roll determines only success or failure and a separate roll determines the degree of success.

I can understand that. I have seen it in operation in other systems, however the fact that the Damage dice are so different based on weapon makes it not hold too much water.

For example, a D10 could be rolled to determine level of success for any test.
A result of a 1 to 5 could be considered a basic success, 6 to 8 could be a greater success and 9 to 10 could be a perfect success.

50% of any character's successes will be a basic success, 30% will be a greater success and 20% will be a perfect success.

Therefore character A with a +5 BAB and character B with a +10 BAB are shooting at a target with AC 16 then the success level break down is as follows:

Character A
Failure = 50% (Rolls 1 to 10 on D20)
Success = 25% (Rolls 11 to 20 on D20 and then 1 to 5 on D10, 50% x 50%)
Greater Success = 15% (Rolls 11 to 20 on D20 and then 6 to 8 on D10, 50% x 30%)
Perfect Success = 10% (Rolls 11 to 20 on D20 and then 9 to 10 on D10, 50% x 20%)

Character B
Failure = 25% (Rolls 1 to 5 on D20)
Success = 37.5% (Rolls 6 to 20 on D20 and then 1 to 5 on D10, 75% x 50%)
Greater Success = 22.5% (Rolls 6 to 20 on D20 and then 6 to 8 on D10, 75% x 30%)
Perfect Success = 15% (Rolls 6 to 20 on D20 and then 9 to 10 on D10, 75% x 20%)

If Damage staging was tied to these success levels, e.g. Success does base damage, Greater Success does double damage, Perfect Success does triple, then this would be fine.

However, as I stated before the Damage dice differ by weapon, so saying the a weapon with D6 means that 1/6th of a character's success will deal max damage (a roll of 6 on D6) does not really equate to a weapon of damage D8 where only 1/8th of a character's success will deal max damage.

Whoever was talking about D20 being clearer in terms of probabilty and chance, if you argue that the Damage roll determines how well you hit, rather than by how much you exceeded your DC, then the probabilities get murkier than SR!
mfb
oops. forgot about the no-multiplier thing. so, light pistols suck equally in SR and Spycraft. (Star Wars is significantly more lethal, as a hold-out blaster does a hefty 3d4, and a normal blaster does 3d6--eat it, greedo!)
Austere Emancipator
At "low levels", LPs suck equally in d20 Spycraft and SR. At "higher levels", LPs suck far more in d20 Spycraft than in SR. Which is pretty much what I've been saying all along: If you use standard d20 rules, without breaking out the "All Damage Goes To WPs" suggestion or disallowing more VPs/HPs at level-ups, you're going to end up in a game where dying is a heck of a lot more difficult than in SR.

QUOTE (DigitalMage)
Correct me if I am wrong, but a +10 BAB inflicts the same damage, albeit more often, than a +1 BAB character using the same weapon and neitehr having extra feats. The only benefit (and it could be considered significant, I haven't done the maths) is that the +10 BAB character will more likely confirm any Critical Threats rolled.

You are correct. Assuming everything else stays the same, no Feats, a higher Attack Bonus does not help in doing more damage with a single hit. This is a major reason for why I've been advocating a "-attack +damage" system available for everyone, Feats or no.

QUOTE (mfb)
Star Wars is significantly more lethal, as a hold-out blaster does a hefty 3d4, and a normal blaster does 3d6--eat it, greedo!

Yup. In a Space Opera, there's not much that can be done to tone the lethality down without completely breaking suspension of disbelief. It'd be a bit unbelievable that civilizations capable of swooshing between star systems in a matter of hours/days wouldn't be capable of making weapons that do quite a bit more damage than the ones we have now...

(Although anyone who can suspend their disbelief in a Star Wars game has already mastered that area...)
bwdemon
First, regarding shuriken, they shouldn't do much damage. Shuriken, IIRC, are really just delivery devices for poison and are not meant to cause grievous harm on their own. If a game system allows them to cause grievous harm on their own, then that system is screwed. However, you should be able to throw them at targets as happily as you wish. Unless you're looking for unrealistic gameplay, that is? We can get into the superhero realm with Bullseye-type throwing weapon damage easily enough...

Second, regarding "hits" by the Barrett against d20 characters, nothing is really a "hit" until you take wound points. If a normal person is hit by a Barrett under d20 rules, they die. They either have @4 HP or 10 WP with no VP and the Barrett will kill them either way. That's not a critical hit, just a hit of any sort. Now, succeeding on your roll to hit a PC will first deplete whatever luck or ability to avoid damage the character has (noticed the glint of a scope, heard the bipod scrape on the floor, saw the shooter aiming at him, whatever) and then the character gets hurt. It's possible to kill in a single shot, but it isn't really a "hit" until the WP get marked off. Once a character is actually hit by an attack, things are very serious in d20. This can happen immediately with a critical hit or by depleting VP until the character can't avoid the damage any more. VPs don't represent a character soaking up a hit from anything, they represent him narrowly avoiding the hit, through training and experience.

SR3 has a similar mechanic regarding dodge tests. The character throws some CP into a roll in an attempt to dodge a successful attack by a Barrett. The Barrett shooter gets two successes, so the target needs only two 4's on the dodge test to avoid all damage. "Normal" people don't have combat pool, so they just die instantly from a successful hit. Somehow though, by virtue of being a PC, the character is able to dodge a sniper attack completely. Further, if the PC doesn't like the result of this test, he can reroll happily by using a karma pool die, which leads us to the next argument.

Third, regarding lethality, SR3 allows for methods to save a character that simply do not exist under d20. In d20, you deal with the result of the dice and that's final. The only exception goes for those very few characters with the special ability to reroll one failed roll once/session. In SR3, you can reroll. The more experienced you are, the more rerolls you get. You can also add dice to any die pool based on nothing but a character's overall experience. You get better at everything you do thanks to this experience. You can add dice and reroll failures in an attempt to get more successes. You can also cash in all of your experience (however small or large) and avoid a guaranteed-to-kill-you situation, regardless of how the dice came up on either side. Of course, after that, you simply forget how to do everything better and are stuck with only your basic abilities until you rack up some more experience.

Fourth, regarding firearms, some are fond of pointing out that SR3's firearms are not in any way supposed to reflect modern firearms. I don't think this is a particularly good thing, but it's been used as support for the game's errors in this very thread. However, these same people use a book on modern firearms as the be-all, end-all source for firearm statistics in d20. So SR3 doesn't have to abide by modern firearms, but d20 SR would have to? The fact remains that nothing would prevent SR d20 from using different weapon damage than is listed in UMF.

Fifth, regarding the "likelihood to hit should somehow work on damage" issue, you have to look at the interaction of VP in the mix. First, a character with a +10 BAB will likely have more feats and special abilities related to combat than one with a +1 or even a +6 BAB. The gist of the issue seemed to be, why should a person with a +6 BAB and appropriate feats or special abilities be able to cause more damage that a person with a +10 BAB and no feats or special abilities with the same number of attacks from the same weapon? The simple answer is that the person with the feat is better able to use the weapon or attack in question to inflict the most harm. Instead of attempting to just hit a target, they are able to hit specific areas on a target that are more damaging. The +10 BAB character will hit a man-sized target somewhere 20% more often than a +6 BAB character, but the latter will put his shots in the head/neck region. Further, feats and special abilities usually reflect proficiency with a very specific weapon or under very specific conditions, while BAB only speaks of the general level of combat proficiency of the character.

Example: A person who has only ever fired a Colt M1911A1, but who has put in countless hours with it, will still be a good shot with other pistols and with many rifles. However, they'll be more comfortable with the Colt M1911A1, resulting in better performance. This would represent a weapon focus/specialization in the Colt M1911A1.

Sixth, I'm getting conflicting arguments regarding the randomness of SR3. One person says that it's more random, because more things can happen (once you get over 4 dice, anyway). Another person says that it's less random, due to the bell-shaped distribution of successes. I say that it's less random, due to the bell curve and other mechanics. For one, there are only five outcomes, damage-wise, for any attack in SR3: none (0 boxes), light (1 box), moderate (3 boxes), serious (6 boxes), or deadly (10 boxes). That's it. Nothing else can happen. You can't do 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, or 9 boxes of damage with a single attack. It doesn't matter whether the attack is from a more powerful or less powerful weapon, except that it will be more or less likely, respectfully, to limit the already limited number of results. It takes 2 successes to stage down damage, so it takes the same number of successes to go from D to S (4 boxes), from S to M (3 boxes), from M to L (2 boxes), and from L to none (1 box) so each pair of successes means something different. I don't like that inconsistency and it isn't necessary. Further, every single character has the same ten wound boxes, completely removing any sort of variation between characters there.

Both SR3 and d20 become less lethal as you gain experience and, thanks to SR3's mechanics, it's easier to stay alive in SR3 than it is to stay alive in d20 under all but the most skewed conditions. At the start of the game, it's FAR easier to stay alive in SR3 and I think everyone's admitted that. SR3 has dodge tests and rerolls, while d20 has VP and no rerolls (absent a limited and rare special ability). Both systems allow characters to become better at everything in combat as they gain experience (karma pool v. BAB), but only SR3 allows you to become better at everything outside of combat with experience (karma pool can be used with all tests) and d20 can be classless (which prevents the "becoming better at everything in combat just from experience" problem). Both systems require proficiencies with weapons for adequate use. SR3 won't allow a default roll with a TN of 8+, but you can still hit without proficiency under d20 (you'd just need a really good roll, probably a "20").

A lot of these arguments that I'm seeing now appear to be rehashes of earlier arguments and some may well be repeats by the same posters as before. If you're going to work on rehashed topics, at least do so based on the material offered in reply.
Austere Emancipator
[Edit]Damn. This message is a bit more aggressive than it was supposed to be. Sorry. I would appreciate it if no reader took any of non-factual parts or the use of language very seriously.[/Edit]

QUOTE (bwdemon)
Second, regarding "hits" by the Barrett against d20 characters, nothing is really a "hit" until you take wound points. If a normal person is hit by a Barrett under d20 rules, they die. They either have @4 HP or 10 WP with no VP and the Barrett will kill them either way. That's not a critical hit, just a hit of any sort.[etc etc]

I addressed this 100 posts back.
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And even if you forget about any sense-making for a while and just consider Vitality Points dodging, it's a really bad rules mechanic for that. Why is a 7.62x54mmR shot harder to dodge than a 7.62x51mm shot? Why is a 10g shotgun shot harder to dodge than a 12g shotgun shot, which again is harder to dodge than a 20g shotgun shot? Why does a .22LR bolt-action rifle produce only half the amount of first-shot hits in a combat situation compared to a .30-06 bolt-action rifle? And the same for 7.62x39mm vs 5.56x45mm assault rifles, 7.62x51mm vs 5.56x45mm semi-auto rifles, 10g shotguns vs .50BMG rifles, etc.

The way damage works makes it unbelievable that Vitality Points are about dodging, near-misses or luck. Adding the fact that it's a big Constitution score and Feats like Toughness that add Vitality Points, not Dexterity or Intelligence or Wisdom or Feats like Dodge, Mobility, etc. and it just defies all logic that Vitality Points would be about anything else than simply "sucking it up" and being "built to last". And "sucking it up" when you've got a 4" diameter hole through the middle of your torso can prove a bit hard, if you are a mammal. (That includes ninjas.)


QUOTE (bwdemon)
"Normal" people don't have combat pool, so they just die instantly from a successful hit.

Hell yes they do. Everyone has Combat Pool. At least I've never seen any SR material state otherwise.

QUOTE
Somehow though, by virtue of being a PC, the character is able to dodge a sniper attack completely.

Like I said, everyone has CP and every can "dodge" just the same. They can't, though, unless they are actually in combat and know they are being shot at. This translates to the d20 system of hit rolls, Defense ratings, etc, not Vitality Points.

QUOTE
Third, regarding lethality, SR3 allows for methods to save a character that simply do not exist under d20. In d20, you deal with the result of the dice and that's final. The only exception goes for those very few characters with the special ability to reroll one failed roll once/session. In SR3, you can reroll.

Do you wish me to start again with the Barrett kill probability numbers but this time include Karma Pool? I'll gladly do this, but you should be aware that it won't significantly alter the results, because you have to score successes to reroll the failures. Adding more dice to the test won't help you either if the TN is high.

And you CAN alter dice results in d20: In d20 Modern, using an action point allows you to add 1d6 on any d20 roll, and at higher levels a character will have craploads of APs so he can alter his rolls constantly. d20 Modern doesn't allow AP use to boost Defense, but your comments don't really work with d20 Modern anyway (since it uses Hit Points, which are even more clearly not dodging of any sort).

In d20 Spycraft, you can do the same, except that the Action Dice (like AP, just different name) varies in size, starting at d4 on levels 1-5 and going up to d10 from 16th level onwards. This is an "exploding" die, so you can get very high results. But you can also use ADs in d20 Spycraft to increase your Defense for one round by the number of the roll, making you almost impossible to hit at higher levels where you'll average 6+ with the AD roll. This can be done 3-6 times per gaming session (dependent on level), which also reminds one of the Karma Pool system.

QUOTE (bwdemon)
Fourth, regarding firearms, some are fond of pointing out that SR3's firearms are not in any way supposed to reflect modern firearms. I don't think this is a particularly good thing, but it's been used as support for the game's errors in this very thread. However, these same people use a book on modern firearms as the be-all, end-all source for firearm statistics in d20. So SR3 doesn't have to abide by modern firearms, but d20 SR would have to? The fact remains that nothing would prevent SR d20 from using different weapon damage than is listed in UMF.

(I assume "these people" refers to me...) It would help if you didn't get so defensive. The comments I've made on the firearms in d20 Modern and Spycraft have all been constricted to exactly that: Comments on those games. For these comments, I drew from the equipment lists of d20 Modern Core, d20 Spycraft Core and d20 Ultramodern Firearms. At the same time, I have made several suggestions as to how these values should be adjusted for them to work in a Shadowrun game.

QUOTE
Instead of attempting to just hit a target, they are able to hit specific areas on a target that are more damaging. The +10 BAB character will hit a man-sized target somewhere 20% more often than a +6 BAB character, but the latter will put his shots in the head/neck region.

Using real-life, concrete examples for this is a bad idea. No one will constantly put his shots in the head/neck region, as has been repeatedly discussed in these forums. When sniping, this works to a degree (and thus the sniper/marksman Feats have some merit to them), but in an actual firefight, in the thick of it, people don't do that. They just shoot at center mass. And if you hit center-mass, you are very likely to hit something significant. This should remain the same for both Feat-users and those with a great BAB.

QUOTE
This would represent a weapon focus/specialization in the Colt M1911A1.

Yeah, that works. On the other hand, it represents a specialization of Pistols/Colt M1911A1.

QUOTE
At the start of the game, it's FAR easier to stay alive in SR3 and I think everyone's admitted that.

Yes, but you're the only one who doesn't admit that starting characters in SR3 are nothing like the starting characters in d20.

QUOTE
SR3 has dodge tests and rerolls, while d20 has VP and no rerolls (absent a limited and rare special ability).

d20 also has bonus dice for offense (APs/ADs), as well as an increasing Defense-attribute which is a far better comparison for dodging in SR. For everything else than the Karma Pool, and even that only for humans or metahumans with an Edge, getting better at Shadowrun gets slower the better you already are. In d20, you keep getting better at the exact same pace, or actually might quicken pace after you hit the "Advanced Classes" and better Feats, at least up to the 20th level.

A graphical example would probably be best, but that's a bit hard on these forums. Think of d20 as y = x + 1, and SR as y = x^0.5 + 3, for example.

QUOTE
[...] but only SR3 allows you to become better at everything outside of combat with experience (karma pool can be used with all tests)[...]

Wrong. Do read the Action Points/Action Dice rules from your d20 books.

QUOTE
A lot of these arguments that I'm seeing now appear to be rehashes of earlier arguments and some may well be repeats by the same posters as before.

In all fairness, some of your arguments are rehashes as well, especially the Vitality/Wound To Hit Or Not To Hit issue.
DigitalMage
QUOTE
"Normal" people don't have combat pool, so they just die instantly from a successful hit.  Somehow though, by virtue of being a PC, the character is able to dodge a sniper attack completely.

I may need to re-read my SR3 but I understood it that all characters got Combat Pool. In 2nd Ed there was Threat Ratings which was a replacement for Combat pool purely to prevent GMs needing to keep track of pool dice.

In 3rd edition most people get Karma Pool as well. This is about the only thing that does distinguish between "Heroes" and "Commoners", and could therefore be equated to the Vitality issue.

Re the concerns with Karma - like I said, anything like this could be changed if we consider that if we are changing the D20 system to create a SR D20, then we could also re-write the current system.

QUOTE
The gist of the issue seemed to be, why should a person with a +6 BAB and appropriate feats or special abilities be able to cause more damage that a person with a +10 BAB and no feats or special abilities with the same number of attacks from the same weapon?


Actually I was using that argument to indicate that determining probabilities in D20 was less clear than in Shadowrun, as you can't just look at a character's skill rating or BAB, instead you have to take account of all of their feats as well.
bwdemon
On the comparison between beginning characters in SR3 and d20... In d20, a trained NPC soldier is a Warrior 1. This is below a PC, who is able to choose from more capable classes (e.g. Fighter 1). In SR3, a trained soldier is likewise just below a beginning-level character. You have zero karma and 1 or 2 karma pool, so you haven't done anything of note.

Now for an example, look at Aztlan for a second, pg. 177. At the bottom of the right column, the stats for a standard Aztechnology Corporate Security guard are given. For those of you not lucky enough to have this book, here are the stats:

B5 Q4 S4 C2 I4 W3, E2.5, R4, I4+3d6, TR4, PR4, smartlink 2, synaptic accelerator (2), trauma damper, etiquette (corp) 4, etiquette (street) 2, firearms 6, stealth 3, unarmed combat 3, Ares Alpha, Heavy Armor w/ helmet, and commlink.

Granted, those are SR2 stats (note the "firearms" skill, threat rating, and lack of knowledge skills), but this is a standard security guard for Aztechnology. This is not a Jaguar or Leopard Guard member, just a run of the mill security guard. He's just as good with a gun as any starting character can be and he's sporting SOTA 'ware and gear. No, he isn't as good as a starting character in SR3 can be (thanks to the powergame problem with SR3) but he's not far off from the archetypes.

A side note: I checked up and SR3 NPCs have all pools, including karma pools. So even the common couch potato can avoid a 10-success hit from a Barrett by blowing his meager karma pool in SR3.

As for action dice/points or force points, I'm not a fan of them. They don't exist in D&D and that's among the things that D&D handles better than most other d20 games. SR d20 would be free to choose to use those or not.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (bwdemon)
In d20, a trained NPC soldier is a Warrior 1. This is below a PC, who is able to choose from more capable classes (e.g. Fighter 1). In SR3, a trained soldier is likewise just below a beginning-level character.

Try comparing a starting character and your idea of a "trained soldier" in both systems to Average Joe: In SR all Attrs 3 and a combat skill at 2; in d20 3VP, all Attrs 10 (10WP), BAB/saves/def 0. See how many such guys that Aztech secguard will slaughter without trouble.

I don't have any Aztlan sourcebooks and, for what it's worth, I have never considered any secguards to be anywhere near that power level.

QUOTE
So even the common couch potato can avoid a 10-success hit from a Barrett by blowing his meager karma pool in SR3.

No he can't. He can burn his KP on a Hand of God, but you seem to be slightly confused on what exactly a HoG does. The definition on p. 248, SR3, says: "This use of Karma represents divine intervention [...] Gamemasters can explain this phenomena with any rationale they like [...]
When the character burns all his or her Karma at once to avoid certain death, these points are gone."

So the GM can decide, among other things, that the guy dies anyway. Or, for significant NPCs, the GM might decide that the guy only gets a Deadly and manages to stay alive long enough for a passer-by to give CPR (stabilize him). Or the GM can simply decide not to use HoG on (most) NPCs. Using HoG, the effects it has, if any, and the form it takes are all up to the GM.

If a GM allows everyone to avoid Barrett shots like this, he's being A) Stupid; B) Stupid; C) Stupid; D) A prick and he's raping the rule on purpose.

QUOTE
As for action dice/points or force points, I'm not a fan of them. They don't exist in D&D and that's among the things that D&D handles better than most other d20 games. SR d20 would be free to choose to use those or not.

Right enough, they don't exist on D&D. But they do in almost all d20 games, and logically they would also in SR d20. Feel free not to use them in yours, however, but don't use that as part of an argument for d20, against SR.
LoseAsDirected
I found a few notes from my first attempt at making a d20ish SR several years ago, and this is what I have written down/can remember of it..

First, there are still no levels. You still use the Priority system or the building point system (so you still pretty much need all of the SR books and at least one core d20 book).

The Attribute points are used in a point buy system (a la the DMG for D&D).. If you chose Priority A as Attributes, then you have 30 building points with which to buy your attributes.

The value of Skill Points are doubled, so Priority A is 100 Skill Points, instead of 50, and so on..

Skills are still the same as in SR (Pistol, Shotgun, SMG, etc..), so there is no need for a BAB. You get to apply your attribute modifier to any related skill. The maximum rank a skill can be at char gen is 12.

Pools are pretty simple.. For Combat pool (which is the only example I have at the moment), combine your Dex, Int, and Wis scores, and divide by 2. That's your 'combat pool'.

I don't exactly recall how I handled saving throws, but I know that (since there is no level progression), there are no increases in it (apart from your linked attribute)..

There are no HP or VP.. You get an amount of life equal to your CON score, period.

All armor ratings are treated as DR,AC is equal to 10 + Dex modifier + Size modifier + X (number of 'dodge pool' allocated to Defense for that attack; which cannot exceed your Dexterity score)

Racial bonuses are as such;

Dwarf - +2 Constitution, +4 Strength, +2 Wisdom, +4 Fort vs. Poison, Darkvision 60', running speed x3 (instead of x4)
Elf - +2 Dexterity, +4 Charisma, Low-Light Vision
Ork - +6 Constitution, +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma, Low-Light Vision
Troll - Large, +8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +10 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma, Reach 10', natural DR 2/-, Darkvision 60'

I only used generic types of weapons, to simplify things..

Rate of Fire is the maximum number of shots you can fire per round.

Hold-Out 1d8, 20/x2, 20', ROF 4
Light 1d10, 20/x2, 30', ROF 4
Heavy 2d6, 20/x2 40', ROF 4
Machine 1d10, 20/x2, 30', ROF 4 (12 if BF)

I think you get the idea..

The way attacks work is rather simple.. You decide how many shots you want for that action, and divide your ranks in the relevant skill up among those shots however you want (minimum of 1 rank, maximum equal to your rank), apply Dex mods to each shot, plus any recoil mods, and then fire.. This way, even a relatively poor shot (4 ranks) can fire exactly as many shots with a hold-out as even a mighty samurai (12 ranks) could, but the samurai will have a better chance to hit per bullet. 'Combat pool' can be added to any shot, but no more than the amount of ranks you placed in that shot..

Anyway, it led for some lethal combat, which caused the PCs to think twice about breaking out into a gunfight.. which is, in my opinion, the most important aspect of SR.. AVOID fights as much as possible, but be ready in case you can't avoid them..

I know, it's far from perfect.. I ran into so many problems that I just gave up, and decided that I liked the SR system as it was, and if the PCs didn't want to play it, they didn't have to.. I like to think of SR as being a more advanced RPG than the d20 system, and when they were ready for a real challenge, they'd step up to it.. And, so far, they have. Quite beautifully too, if I might add.

Note: I hadn't even touched the issues on Decking, Rigging, or Magic.. I just worked on a basic system.
Cain
QUOTE
I am a bit confused with your math. A normal person should have 2-4 hit points, where are you getting your 35 HP target from? That should be something like an troll war veteran or something, not your usual every day target you would expect to kill with a shuriken in one strike.

Those were the Hit Points of my 3rd-level fighter in 3e D&D. Since we've all agreed that a starting character in Shadowrun is a great deal more experienced than a 1st level character in D20, I decided to use a comparison to an average PC.
QUOTE
His damage would now be:
1 (base damage)
+4 (high strength)
+2 (weapon specialization)
+1 (Point Blank Shot if within 3m)
= 8 points of damage (16 on a critical hit)

Which is still not enough to kill on a critical hit. If we're using HP, 16 points of damage is less than half. If we're using VP/WP, the crit goes directly to WP, and does not change in damage. In either case, the PC just survived a having a blade jammed into his jugular.

QUOTE
Now, how would in shadowrun a cop deal with (Str)L and many successes from the adept? How many throwing stars would he take with combat pool and an armored vest?

Depending on the adept? One. Which clearly demonstrates that the lethality of Shadowrun, even at high levels, still surpasses that of D&D.

Here's another example, less technical. We have Joe Average and Bob Average, twin brothers. At the start of their adventuring career, Joe is caught off guard and stabbed by a punk with a knife, and dies. Bob goes on to do a lot of adventuring, and many years later, is later stabbed by the exact same punk, under the exact same conditions. Under D20, not only does Bob live, he passes it off as a scratch.

To get more technical: Punk kid is a Level 1 fighter, no weapon specialization. Joe and Bob have 10 Con and 6 HP. Punk hits and scores a crit, doing his max of 8 points of damage. Joe dies. However, many years later, Bob has gone up 5 levels and gained more HP/VP. He's still got a 10 Con, but now has 20 HP. Punk hits, scores a crit, and deals the same 8 points. Bob is annoyed and hurt, but not even crippled or close to death. If we use VP, in both cases Joe and Bob wouldn't even be dead.

In SR3: Punk has Edged Weapons 4. He scores a crit-- all successes, giving us a total of 8. Joe has an average body of 3; even if he rolls all successes, he's still at Deadly. Many years later, Bob is caught by the same punk, in the same way. His body is still only a 3, however, which means he still dies.
QUOTE
Fifth, regarding the "likelihood to hit should somehow work on damage" issue, you have to look at the interaction of VP in the mix.

That actually makes matters worse. Unless you're advocating that the experienced fighters should always go for called shots, but that's a different set of numbers. However, if I were to go with it-- Shadowrun still comes out deadlier.
QUOTE
Both SR3 and d20 become less lethal as you gain experience and, thanks to SR3's mechanics, it's easier to stay alive in SR3 than it is to stay alive in d20 under all but the most skewed conditions.

Un, dude? Check your math. It's far easier to survive many things in D20 than in Shadowrun.

As far as the argument about Karma pool-- D&D has the Resurrection and Raise Dead spells. D20 has several methods by which a dead character can come back. Shadowrun has nothing of the sort. Karma pool can decrease your liklihood of dying, but it can't bring you back. Even Hand of God can't guarantee your survival-- you might reduce the damage to Deadly, if the GM permits, only to bleed to death if no one gets to you in time.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Cain)
Since we've all agreed that a starting character in Shadowrun is a great deal more experienced than a 1st level character in D20 [...]

Actually, bwdemon still hasn't. nyahnyah.gif
Digital Heroin
As I'm always an advocate of me sounding like an ass: Using the SR world with d20 rules is like raping the prom queen, you get the enjoyment, the people who did the work creating the system just get screwed...
ting-bu-dong
Hi,
a thought on the lethality of the hit point system: Hit points or whatever you call them in a system symbolize how much beating a character can take before he goes down - if he chooses to fight it. It stands for experience and skill, which is why it goes up with level increase.
People often make fun of hit point systems by saying a character with 100 HP will survive an assault cannan shot to the head. The problem is, if the 100 HP character had a chance to evade the attack, no head shot would have occurred, unless it was a critical hit that sent him to negative hit points.
If a character is surprised and a gun is fired to his head, that character is toast no matter whether he had 1 or 100 hit points left. Kind of like the scene in Matrix I when Trinity surprises an agent and shoots him in the head, although that agent would have been unstoppable from attacks he saw coming.

tbd
sapphire_wyvern
QUOTE (ting-bu-dong)
Hi,
a thought on the lethality of the hit point system: Hit points or whatever you call them in a system symbolize how much beating a character can take before he goes down - if he chooses to fight it. It stands for experience and skill, which is why it goes up with level increase.
People often make fun of hit point systems by saying a character with 100 HP will survive an assault cannan shot to the head. The problem is, if the 100 HP character had a chance to evade the attack, no head shot would have occurred, unless it was a critical hit that sent him to negative hit points.
If a character is surprised and a gun is fired to his head, that character is toast no matter whether he had 1 or 100 hit points left. Kind of like the scene in Matrix I when Trinity surprises an agent and shoots him in the head, although that agent would have been unstoppable from attacks he saw coming.

tbd

QUOTE
a thought on the lethality of the hit point system: Hit points or whatever you call them in a system symbolize how much beating a character can take before he goes down - if he chooses to fight it. It stands for experience and skill, which is why it goes up with level increase.


That's right. That's why a Potion of Cure Light Wounds restores 1d8 + creator's level hit points, Cure Moderate Wounds does 3d8+ (I think) and Cure Serious Wounds restores, what, 5d8+ hit points?

Obviously hit points in D&D have nothing to do with the level of injury you have suffered.

Mind you, that argument only illustrates how silly D&D is - for other D20 games (such as Star Wars, Stargate and Spycraft) use the far better VP/WP system, which actually makes a small amount of sense and your point of view is actually true.
Austere Emancipator
We've gone over that already. I'll quote myself, again:
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The way damage works makes it unbelievable that [Hit Points] are about dodging, near-misses or luck. Adding the fact that it's a big Constitution score and Feats like Toughness that add Vitality Points, not Dexterity or Intelligence or Wisdom or Feats like Dodge, Mobility, etc. and it just defies all logic that [Hit Points] would be about anything else than simply "sucking it up" and being "built to last".


QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern)
other D20 games (such as Star Wars, Stargate and Spycraft) use the far better VP/WP system, which actually makes a small amount of sense and your point of view is actually true.

The VP/WP system has the exact same problems as the HP system. If you get rid of the VPs, or do not allow characters to gain more VPs when leveling up (this works for HPs as well), then the system works.

If you want to use Vitality Points as a rules mechanic for dodging and "tactical positioning" and whatever, use Dexterity or Intelligence or Wisdom instead of Constitution to determine the bonuses. Use Feats like Dodge and Mobility, not Toughness. And it is still screwed up, because it shouldn't matter to your dodging or tactical positioning or luck whether your enemies are firing at you with 9x19 semi-auto pistols or 9x19 SMGs set on semi-auto -- you'd have to give weapons different values for doing "damage" against VPs and against WPs.

The obvious choice to use as a replacement for Dodging in d20 is the Defense rating, because there are already Feats like Dodge that increase your Defense. Defense also improves as you gain levels, and there are other ways to increase it as well. Hit Points, nor anything that resemble them, are not nor were they originally meant to be a system determining whether you actually get hit.
bwdemon
A quick note before I head out for the day: CON is used in determining VP bonus largely because it shows how long your character can continue to fight and avoid serious injury before finally tiring out. Once your energy is gone, you're doomed.

Also, (minor) NPCs don't have VP in d20. That includes all the schmoes out there, including trained soldiers, and the like.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (bwdemon)
CON is used in determining VP bonus largely because it shows how long your character can continue to fight and avoid serious injury before finally tiring out.

Does it say so somewhere? Or is that the reasoning you use for yourself?
QUOTE (CONSTITUTION (CON) in d20 Spycraft Core @ p. 16 (Emphasis mine))
Constitution determines your agent's health and toughness. An agent's wound points are equal to his Constitution, so it's important for everyone, but it's especially valuable to agents who want to be able to take great deals of physical abuse before they go down.
It then goes on to describe the things that a Constitution modifier is applied to: Additional points for all VP dice from levels (it makes no mention of why), Fortitude saves (vs poison, gas, etc), skill checks with Con as key ability, and Constitution checks (staying awake, ignoring pain).

So it's health, toughness, being capable of taking great deals of physical abuse, resisting poisons and gases and ignoring pain (plus the odd-one-out: staying awake). And it applies to VPs. I think the indication is quite clear: VP is about being "built to last" and "sucking it up". Because I realize I'm getting a bit repetitive, I'll also add "taking it like a man".

QUOTE (bwdemon)
Also, (minor) NPCs don't have VP in d20. That includes all the schmoes out there, including trained soldiers, and the like.

So (minor) NPCs never get lucky, never dodge, never position themselves well in a firefight, never have significant amounts of energy, never suck it up and never take it like a man? I strongly suggest using the same rules for NPCs as for PCs when making a d20 Shadowrun, because that's more or less how it works with actual Shadowrun rules. Not doing so makes it even more a superhero game, D&D with guns and cyber.
LoseAsDirected
Also, for my own d20 SR rules, I just remembered an issue I forgot to address..

Using my system, for every 2 points by which you surpass your targets' AC, you add +1 to the damage..

So, if firing with a Pistol of 4 ranks, and a +2 for Dexterity vs an AC of 16, you'll do base damage on a roll of 10 (10+6=16=hit), base damage +1 on a roll of 12 (12+6=18=hit +2/2=1 extra damage), and so on.. This rewards more skilled runners the opportunity to deal more damage, thus making any weapon potentially lethal in the hands of a skilled combatant.

A hold-out pistol that does 1d8 may not be too scary to that troll with a total WP of 20, but it is when the owner of said gun has a total of +20 to hit, and is throwing all of it into one shot.
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