Probably because it will have an ID like Renraku CyberLimb 2000 and they may even be using AR to see all the goodies around them.

Which is why the first you do is go in and change all the ID's around. Buy a second commlink that isn't hooked into anything and change it's ID to 'My Smartgun' or 'My Mighty Metal Limb' and let the deckers waste time hacking that.

In SR4, it was "Matrix perception test" to see what belongs to which PAN. Since nobody will tell how bricking works, though, it seems we're not even sure if slaves can be bricked directly or if the attack has to kill the character's commlink first.

However, of course your arm broadcasts it's ID to everyone in range. That's what wireless technology does, and that's why wireless technology is such a security nightmare.

Thats what I thought. There is no way to tell what ID relates to what physical object in general.

So if it is only runner and opposition the hacker might hack away. But in the middle of the city, hacking in the wrong pair of eyes might really mess you up for good.

I have no problem with magic painting a cross air on your back, because it is exceptional and not many people can see it anyhow. But tech is in a world of tech and that alone should be some measure of protection which you should not just handwave away...

So what? There is an ID? So what about that. Unless there is a database connecting myself with this ID and he knows who I am that does not mean anything.

So there is one cyberlimbAS4CDT4356 and maybe one cyberlimbBS4CAD4346 which one is mine and which belongs to the old guy living in the appartment next to our little firefight.

A SAM can't neither just roll agility+gun and shot in the air and wait until his bullets kill all his enemys...

Matrix perception, as I understand the rule, tells you what each node "is". In other words, it is you asking said database about the IDs and the database answering you.


Again going by SR4 rules: Ever heared of triangulation? You can pinpoint the physical location of a wireless device. So if 12347A85A1362845 is a cyberlimb and located where your opponent's arm is, it is what to hack when you want to devicehack his cyberarm. That's how it worked in SR4, anyway. Unless you used skinlink, like every player.

I'm gonna strongly suggest everyone just chill until the book is released. Too many questions are verging on long explanations delving deeply into the rules, and I just don't have the time or energy to answer anymore of these. My apologies... I'll help clear up misconceptions or straightforward rules confusion when I can, but... Too much of this just comes down to "Read the chapter".

Hopefully some of this will be alleviated with the matrix preview. Ant idea when that will be out Bull?

Will there even be one?

The release announcement said there would be one more preview about the matrix before the 11th.

This kind of triangulation is not very precise. (And you need the equipment first...)
So well, he knows the device is in an radius of about 50m if I am not mistaken... (SR4.01)
(And considering the methodes used, thats still good...)

Why wouldn't those stack? I mean, going by 4E, even bonuses from drugs explicitly stack, and those come from the same source.


Last I checked, there was this metamagic called Extended Masking...
That said, increased reflexes can be dropped and recast in three seconds, exactly, if a mage needs to be sneaky - and only another Awakened can even look if he has one sustained.
Can the same be said of weird reflexes?


Anyway, some of the developments in magic I like, some not. However, is there anything that'd make playing a cybered character fun? Is there any benefit to preferring a sammy to a (magic) adept, for instance?

That's kinda said. When I first heard about wireless bonuses, I instantly like the design idea behind them. That was perfect logic (to me): 'going offline gives you an advantage in that no one can hack you, so everyone goes offline, and that discourages hacker characters. So we implement bonuses for being online, they counterweight extra protection from being offline, but enable hacking.' As I said, it's a perfect design idea. If you have A and B where B=A-2, you can either substract 2 from A or add 2 to B. The result is the same, but in the second case the 'B player' would be happy, while in the first case 'A player' would be unhappy. So I thought 'wow, they give extra bonuses to prompt people t go online, that's cool!' If in the print you need to be online to function at the 'regular' level, that's... kinda sad, as I said already.

It appears a job requirement for SR devs appears to be an inability to figure out how to use a dictionary.

Except when talking about electronics, "bricking" is bringing the device into a state where it won't respond to the attempts to turn it on (see, for example, phone firmware updates). That does not, however, imply the need to replace the whole device at all.

No, I'm the one who should apologize. I'm sitting on all the answers (although not the only one doing so), but since I've written the thing four or five times already, I cringe a little inside when I think of writing it again.

So what are the differences between an SR 4 Rigger and an SR5 Rigger?


Haven't seen it yet, but I have to agree here.
I'd like to see some special rigging cyberware that makes you a better rigger, but any hacker should be able to rig.
I mean what is decking but using an DNI link to interface your brain with a machine?
You are already using Simsense to interface with the matrix.
How much more trouble could it be to interface with a drone?
I figure if you are using emulation software then you will be a little slower than a rigger with a full VCR rig.

I just hope they don't gimp the riggers again by making the VCR rigs take up so much essence that it is impossible for them to afford to have any of the normal reaction enhancement cyberware like in the earlier editions.
I mean the idea lately in Shadowrun was to set it up so that deckers and riggers could be more involved in the physical side of the run.

Keeping the two distinct, and making them even more distinct, would be the best thing.

The rigger really needs to get into the field and use the drone as more of a "pet" that they can direct. With SR5's focus on "one attack action" in a phase, letting the rigger stay mobile on the field, say by directing the drone as freely as his own movement (taking advantage of that lower brain function interface from the VCR) and interpreting drone feedback while still remaining unhindered by distraction penalties, and then choosing to use his own actions or use his actions on the drone, or split them (still only one attack) I think would be sort of a perfect way to really sell the rigger as a unique profession.

Oh yea unless I missed something somewhere the discount for cyber/bio whichever is less is gone so your 5.9 essence doesn't go as far as in previous generations.

I think you'll also find some Essence costs adjusted.

The Jargon File definition disagrees with you. For those who don't know, the Jargon File is a sort of hacker's glossary of terms.

Also higher grades are much more affordable.

In what universe does that definition disagree with mine?



EDIT:
To be fair yes there are times when you say "bricked" and mean it as a temporary state, but that's not the norm for the term. But whoever decided "bricked" is the word they want to mean "screwed up for a couple rounds" belongs in the same dungeon with whoever thought "Nexi" was a real word.

"This term usually implies irreversibility, but equipment can sometimes be unbricked by performing a hard reset or some other drastic operation." Drastic operation, like maybe busting out the Hardware skill and fixing it. Not like "lolol sorry about your cyberarm and wired reflexes, sucker, gone forever!"

Quote the rest of the sentence from the definition instead of only the first five words and you'll see.


Wherever did you get the idea that "bricked" means "screwed up for a couple rounds?"

"Usually implies irreversibility" means that far more often than not it's dead forever. That's what 'usually' and 'irreversible' mean with respect to 'nonfunctioning.'

What it doesn't mean, or say, is "usually implies having to do some service on it and then it'll be okay again."

It's sort of like how you don't say "I burned my house down" when what you really mean is "I set off the smoke detector."

No, this argument's not gotten pedantic at all. If it's really that big a deal to you, then, just chalk it up to the "clip/magazine" thing, okay? In Shadowrun, 62 years from now, bricking doesn't mean quite the same thing.

Done?

Is there a section of the rules that describes how a PC would go about repairing something that has been bricked?

Hold on now. I'm not going around chastising people for their word choices (except for Nexi, that's just awful). Someone asked "why do you think bricked means dead forever" and I responded with the definition of bricked. The confusion regarding the term and how it's being used isn't my damned fault, nor is your choice to hammer me with apologetics.

I don't have a book in front of me that says "this is what we mean by bricked and these are the mechanics regarding it." That's information I don't have. Don't get mad at me for not being privy to book-specific jargon that has a real meaning in real life, especially if you aren't explaining the jargon and are instead simply telling me how wrong I am.

Gave it another read, cyberlimbs are more or less a straight port for 4A. Base stats at 3, can pay for customization up to racial max, and then enhancements up to 3 ratings to get towards augmented max. Each limb adds an additional box to your phsical condition monitor.Can take up to 3 points of armor (although armor's availability rating is pretty steep). The biggest change that i can see/remember this time of night is that body is no longer one of the stats cyberlimbs affect. Personally I see this as a very positive change rules wise as it eliminates some wonkiness.

Is it up to 3 points of armor per limb that gets added into your regular armor (as +armor rather than just armor?) or is it a little tamer? Sounds like if you did the full cybertorso, head, arms, legs, you'd have quite the armor to go with your 16 or 17 damage boxes. You'd also probably have no essence...

Yes, and you'll note I already tried to mention it (repairing bricked items requires Hardware tests).

C'mon, man. Folks were assuming bricked meant dead forever and their character lost cyberware and stuff, and then were told, point-blank, that it didn't. And then the conversation kept going, as it was insisted that yes, in totally does mean dead forever. And then definitions were busted out, and quibbled over, and blah blah blah the point is that's not what it means in SR5. And, once it's been clearly stated that's not what it means in SR5, why keep going on about it and then being all shocked when folks are a little frustrated at the never-ending pedantry?

I'm sorry if you think I'm jumping down your throat here, but I'm just puzzled at how it seems like everyone is going out of their way to argue and bicker about everything, ever, even when some clarifications have been made (inasmuch as we can make clarifications without just copy-pasting the whole friggin' Matrix chapter).

Short form: hacking is harder than some folks seem to be assuming it is, defending from hacking works better than some folks seem to be assuming it does, "bricking" certainly does not mean items are broken forever the way some folks seem to be assuming it does, etc, etc. Once more, I'll just say "maybe folks should calm down on the wild speculation, just a little bit, until they've actually seen how things work." There's been a trend, and I feel it's largely an undeniable one, for folks to admit they don't have the whole picture, but to still go ahead and speculate in the least charitable way until their imaginary SR5 is complete in their head and ready to be railed against as the worst thing since FATAL.

Is there a section of the rules that describes why bricking must be a thing, and direct connections must not?

Ah-ha, NOW we've got our explanation of why the Sprawl Ganger has 13 boxes of Physical instead of the calculated 12.

Winnah winnah, chicken dinnah!

The moral of this story is don't think you can skip the first 4 pages of a thread without accidentally getting in the middle of a big argument. My bad.

Also, honestly a bunch of people can just stop Rubic specifically came up with a conjecture on what bricking means out of his butt and folks jumped on it.

What it means to brick things in a nutshell:

Hacker Attacks a device rolling his cybercombat + logic vs devices firewall + intuition of the user. If hacker gets more hits he then deals damage to the device which the device resists with firewall + device rating (which for almost anything but cyberdecks are going to be one in the same). A bricked device stops functioning, locks won't unlock, drones glide to the ground on autopilot, guns don't fire but can still use their bayonets (the writers examples, not mine) and you can't hack a katane ne? (again their words not mine). With a toolkit an hour of work and a Hardware + Logic test you can restore a box of matrix damage for every hit or cut the time, with enough hits you could actually cut the time to one combat turn (although by that point your devoting like 5 hits to time reduction, so your getting the device barely working again). If the test is glitched you restore the function but the device is a bit glitchy, if you critically glitch the device is permanently a very expensive paperweight.

The biggest issue i have with all this is pretty straight forward. Unless i'm reading things wrong the best thing a person can do for defending against enemy hacks is loose 10 from their initiative to throw willpower in on whatever test is going down, at the cost of -10 to their initiative score. This essentially means that even the greatest hacker in the world isn't any better at defending the teams wireless net unless his willpower is higher then another equivalent party member. I'd like Bull or Aaron's opinion on this because it really feels like there's some piece I'm missing.

Didn't mean to jump your shit over it, it's just been a long couple of months and, frankly, I want the damned thing published so I can at least talk about it, not just what people think it will someday be.

Aye, am sure there are basic steps to defense, just like internet security today (don't share passes, regularly change same, when to turn wifi on and off, etc..)

I like the concept of the team hacker actually providing defense from the team's gear being hacked, sort of like providing the electronic equivalent of counterspelling.

Granted it may not work quite the same way as the mage provides a general blanket of defense whereas the decker will be duking it out with the hacker.

Don't know yet how viable that would be so am eager to see if/how this could work.

The power of c&p? Obviously, this is important to people on more than one webforum, and not everyone here is active on the other three where you posted it. You can also post a link.


Okay, obviously you cannot do this with internal cyberware then. Thanks. What are surgery costs in SR5, and are there rules for reparative surgery; surgery to un-brick cyberware?


Ah, so it's a damage track solution. Does intermediate bricking damage (say, 5 boxes) give a DP penalty, like physical and stun damage?

So . . a Samurai then has how many damage Tracks? O.o
One for each implant? Are the SR3 Stress Rules back then?

To me it sounds like cyber users are getting screwed in favor of the all-powerful Mystic Adept. Seriously, I've been involved with SR for 20 years and have yet to see a usable cyberlimbs rule despite hundreds of fan-made rules that fix the problems quite easily yet our cries for common sense changes are ignored in favor of MORE rules (limits, new chargen system, wireless everything, etc.). What the hell is going on at Catalyst?

I mean, does it seem bizarre to anyone else that in a technologically-advanced future our cyber/bio choices would in some cases be WORSE than they were in 2053? I realize the cycle of magic is ramping up but unless we're doing an Earthdawn "everyone is an adept" thing I don't understand the hate for augmented characters at all.

Heh, that was explained in the preview thread too and as it's the exact same rule as in SR4 most of us new it immediately.

Samoth:Donth you mean old chargen system

All it takes is a Critical Glitch roll on the repair and it is indeed gone forever. And while that's highly unlikely... Seeing close to ¥200,000 worth of Cyberware, again that I paid essence for, going up in smoke?

Sure thing... if on a critical glitch on spellcasting all of a mages foci explode.

Let's also look at what Bricking does...

You Brick my wired Reflexes... essentially my central nervous system... it sparks and explodes and crackles and pops (Bricking pg 228).

Rendering my character at best a Quadrapalegic (because uh I dunno.. my central nervous system stopped working per the definition of Bricking?) until such a time as a surgeon can open me up so a technician can replace parts. And if said technician manages a critical Glitch... you might as well bury my character.

@ Samoth
The major issue with making cyberlimbs work right is the fact, that they are kind of out of the system.
The system works like take your Attribute or skill you paid Karma for and get an bonus to it from ware. (Yes, skillwire works differntly but it has its restrictions)
Now cyberlimbs tend to replace the attributes... That always was and always will be a Problem.


It is always the same Problem: How to make the limp work for the strength 5 ork but also for the strength one human. If you make it too good, the human will have the bargain of his life, too bad the ork will get nothing.

And I have to be honest with one thing: Fans made rules tend to be in the most part half backed, because they are not about making the system work but making a specific thing work under specific circumstances, damn the other cases.

You need to take a step back before you can make two steps forward. And honestly most of the "general" changes are very good ideas. Sometimes they might not have gone far enough.
So from BP to priority with Karma is a good thing BUT it might have been even better to go towards karma, period.

The idea of putting limits on the amount of successes and increasing the skill range were good, but again you might argue that they should reduced the influance of attributes on the dice pool.
To change the power of certain things does not really make the system better or worse (unless they were too good and broke the game or you could not use them but they were an important part of the fluff)


It is not the hate for the augmented, it is the love for certain "mystical" concepts. Someone made a great vampire rant in an other thread. Thats the major problem in my opinion.
My cool Mary Sue should have cloth when he turns from mist to his normal form, fuck it that he will outclass the SAM. And since "magic" pritty much allows everything you do not have to restrict yourself in any way.
That would be cool, lets do it. Oh and that, too. Done.....Like that mundane have to get worse from edition to edition... As soon as the system is the main objectiv and not allowing some bullshit some idiot in a novel used, things will change...

@cryptoknight

Not comparable, since in one case you only loose mony and in the other case you loose Karma and money.
Not to mention that one thing is a one time risk and the other would be there every run multible times.

I don't have anything against those "hook your stuff up to the matrix rule" in general. It is a good idea from a gamist point of few, but the rewards should match the risks.
It is probably better to tune the risks down, than to give "I am a GOD" like rewards but it can't be high risk low reward or even high risk you need to take to keep up with no-risks approaches...

Limb-Attributes should be the norm attribute(3)+Racial Bonus as the basics at least. Maybe even 4+Racial Bonus, because Steel is better than Meat.
Meaning a human will have all 3's in a Cyberlimb without modification.
A Troll would have STR7 because 3+4 from Troll-Race.
And for only money but not mod-slot-cost the limb should be able to go up to racial maximum, so STR10 for the Troll and straight 6 for the human.
As long as nobody tries to get the Troll-Arm on an Elf or the Elf-Leg on a Troll or similar shenanigans, this would take care of most problems i think.

@ Stahlseele
Only if you apply the new limit on augmented attributes. In 4.01 this would have been the worst idea EVER. (It was bad enough in SR4 already)
With the new augmented maximum it is workable, since a Troll would now need a natural (payed for with karma) strength of 6 to get his cyberarm with strength 10.
(This mind sound silly from the simulation point of few, but it is essential in order to keep it somehow balanced.)

Cyberlimbs should be attributes = to your current natural attributes when you buy it, with the option of a minimal payment to increase the limb's ratings if you should spend karma to improve your natural attributes. You should be able to buy additional attribute points up to your racial max as you currently can, and attributes that exceed racial max with an additional capacity cost also as you currently can.

There is zero practical reason a Troll should have the same base arm as a dwarf; limbs should always be "custom" balanced to their owner. Additionally, to clear up any confusion, every piece of cyberware should clearly list whether it can be installed in a limb.

There, I fixed it in about 2 minutes of typing and less than 200 words, and now limbs are much more useful.

@Samoth

That would be fair, I agree. The point here is, that this is hard to flesh into a rule, without making it a contradiction of existing once.

I think a great step in this direction was to bind the augmented maximum to the natural attribute instead of the natural maximum.
Now it is only a 4 point window you have to worry about. If you start on the racial avarage or at the natural attribut will only mean that you have to buy one or two additional points either way to get to the same value. But I agree with you, that it would now be cleaner to start with the natural attribute. I would even handwave problem with raising it with karma and say: If you raise it, the attribute of your cyberarm is raised too . (You got used to it, your body adepted etc.pp) This would get rid of any unnessecary rule you would need to write up about adopting the cyberlimb.

(But you are wrong at one point: It does not make cyberlimbs more usefull. They were very usefull for the guy with 1/1/4/1 for his physical attributes. They gave him free points. What it does is, it makes them an equally usefull option for EVERY CHARACTER )

I think you're missing the point - the guy with 1/1/4/1 attributes would have a limb with 1/1/4/1 as well since it is custom tailored to him.

Why is that hard to flesh into a rule? Just take what I wrote and C&P it into the book - that's how they did most of 5E anyway I'm sure if past editions are any indication.