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Aaron
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 05:04 AM) *
The power of c&p? Obviously, this is important to people on more than one webforum, and not everyone here is active on the other three where you posted it. You can also post a link.

It's not in a format I can copy and paste without complications. Otherwise I'd have done so already.

QUOTE
Okay, obviously you cannot do this with internal cyberware then. Thanks. What are surgery costs in SR5, and are there rules for reparative surgery; surgery to un-brick cyberware?

I think it will eventually be made clear that cyberware has one or more external ports for maintenance.

QUOTE
Ah, so it's a damage track solution. Does intermediate bricking damage (say, 5 boxes) give a DP penalty, like physical and stun damage?

No.
Irion
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 24 2013, 01:12 PM) *
I think you're missing the point - the guy with 1/1/4/1 attributes would have a limb with 1/1/4/1 as well since it is custom tailored to him.

Why is that hard to flesh into a rule? Just take what I wrote and C&P it into the book - that's how they did most of 5E anyway I'm sure if past editions are any indication.

You got me wrong.

I said: YOUR RULE does NOT make Cyberlimbs BETTER or MORE USEFULL. If you planned on them, they were darn usefull in SR4, because you DID not need to buy attribute points. With your ruling, this would be gone. For the record I think this would be a good thing, because the offical ruling in SR 4.01 was a wheel of cheese.

The problem was with the prior edition. There was no connection between the natural attribute and the augmented attribute. Now there is a connection.
In SR 4 cyberlimbs would have been the ONLY augmentation of which their bonus corresponed with the natural attribute.

SR5 introduces the karma paid natural attribut as an limitation. (I think you could go further but maybe they did, we will read it)

Now, I have to admit the ruling would make perfect sense. The natural attribut is the base on which every augmentation depends. So why not also the attributes of a cyberarm.

binarywraith
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Jun 24 2013, 05:32 AM) *
Let's also look at what Bricking does...

You Brick my wired Reflexes... essentially my central nervous system... it sparks and explodes and crackles and pops (Bricking pg 228).

Rendering my character at best a Quadrapalegic (because uh I dunno.. my central nervous system stopped working per the definition of Bricking?) until such a time as a surgeon can open me up so a technician can replace parts. And if said technician manages a critical Glitch... you might as well bury my character.


You want to go one worse, imagine someone does this to your encephalon.

Sorry, guy, we just turned you into a vegetable. Roll a new character, maybe a mage this time!
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 23 2013, 02:28 PM) *
Well the assumption before was it was a trained meidcal skill, not something you poked at with a screwdriver. So yeah I suspect most street sams either did not have the skill or had it at a low level. Now under this new model I can see a lot of Sams doing it, but I think logic probably isn't high on their stat preference list and working on yourself probably has penalties so it is probably a good idea to get someone else to do it.


I'm personally of the notion that combat characters should know how to do basic care and feeding of their gear. A gunbunny should have some Armorer, a Rigger should have (at least one!) mechanic, and, yeah, every Street Sam should have some Cybertechnology. Not loads, but 4 dice and a tool kit for basic work, plus a street doc for the heavy lifting. 4-6 dice is plenty for this kind of thing, depending on how bad your wound penalties get (Or off-hand, for when your cyber-arm goes 'frazzle' and you have to fix it with one hand and a mouth.)

QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Jun 24 2013, 01:17 AM) *
Ah-ha, NOW we've got our explanation of why the Sprawl Ganger has 13 boxes of Physical instead of the calculated 12.


Yay! That can be talked about now! (Yes, that's why he had +1 physical damage track.)

QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 24 2013, 05:59 AM) *
Cyberlimbs should be attributes = to your current natural attributes when you buy it, with the option of a minimal payment to increase the limb's ratings if you should spend karma to improve your natural attributes. You should be able to buy additional attribute points up to your racial max as you currently can, and attributes that exceed racial max with an additional capacity cost also as you currently can.

There is zero practical reason a Troll should have the same base arm as a dwarf; limbs should always be "custom" balanced to their owner. Additionally, to clear up any confusion, every piece of cyberware should clearly list whether it can be installed in a limb.

There, I fixed it in about 2 minutes of typing and less than 200 words, and now limbs are much more useful.


Yeah, but now you have a few questions to deal with.
1) What price difference is there for, say, a Troll arm instead of a human arm?
2) Can my human buy an Ork arm? How about a Troll arm?
3) If I yank the arm off a dead Ork and get it attached, why is that different than buying one myself?
4) If the attributes reduce to my level, why? What's the in-game reason?
5) Similarly, if my Troll rips the arm off an Elf and attatches it and teh attributes move to match his, what's the reasoning for that?

Either the attributes change to match the metatype, which needs a big explaination, or they stay the same, at which point people will want to buy Elf, Ork, or Troll arms for the boosted attributes. If you charge a different price for those limbs... congrats! You're using the cyberlimb system that's been in use for a while.

As for practical reasons, there're a few. Demand for one ... Trolls are about 1% of the population, Humans are about 70%, give or take. Trolls are also less likely to lose their arms or to need an upgraded one to keep up with the Joneses ... they *are* the Joneses. When there are a hundred Human arms needed for every Troll arm (a conservative estimate), you'll be paying a premium based on the flipside of a baseline economy of scale, tweaked further by lighter supply always giving a higher price for point of sale.

There's also racism, natch. Most cyber's made by Japanacorps, who aren't exactly known for their metahuman-friendly policies and don't mind gouging.

"Well, that's why I have a street doc!"

He's getting the parts from somewhere and "Artisan Cyber" is going to be more expensive than factory-produced stuff dropping off a line in most cases. Sure, you're not paying for a big name brand, R&D, and so forth, but parts ain't cheap and quality-assurance isn't at the top of the line. (A good RP hook for having Used Cyberware, however! You have a guy who custom-builds it all. Saves a bundle, but there're a few bugs to work out.)

Of course, there's also the raw power consideration. A Strength 6 arm lifts more than a Strength 3 one, so needs stronger servos, better joint structures, stronger anchoring, larger power thingy, and so on. It *should* cost more, just like a bigger engine in a car costs more than a smaller one.

So, ultimately, you wind up with a situatin where cyberlimbs are best reflected by having a baseline attribute, which can then be modified. Makes limbs for metatypes more expensive, sure, but it also snuffs out the "I have a pair of Troll arms tee hee" dodge for Humans. It's mechanically fair (Everyone pays the same money and essence for the same boosts), but grinds metatypes a bit, who have a perfectly valid thing to grumble about.

(See also, the Sprawl Ganger Ork stuck with a crappy cyberlimb.)

There's probably way more to talk about this, but, I don't want to drag Lurker's thread into the mud-wrestling pit, so, if anyone would like to start a new Cyberlimbs spinoff thread, I'd be more than happy to chat about things there. They're kind of a big thing for a cyberpunk game, so getting them right is a lil' important.
hermit
QUOTE
I think it will eventually be made clear that cyberware has one or more external ports for maintenance.

So bricking is less hardware damage and more firmware freeze?

QUOTE
Not comparable, since in one case you only loose mony and in the other case you loose Karma and money.

Cyberware is paid for in Money and Essence. Essence is a finite, hard-capped ressource and can't be bought back (mostly). Low Essence penalises your Limits.
Foci are paid for in Money and Good Karma. Good Karma is a replentishing ressource with no hard cap. Low Good Karma penalises you in no way.

I fail to see how mages pay more dearly for their foci.
BishopMcQ
To touch on the Foci question. SR5 has an entire page devoted to turning off and permanently destroying a focus. (SR5, p 307) There's also the dispelling angle for unraveling spells that are sustained.

Re: Bricking -- For complete immunity to Bricking, you can "Turn it off" as a Free Action, buy non-wireless, or buy regular and disable the wireless through a Hardware test. Shadowrun has never (IMO) been about a one-man armada. You have a team, and your team works together. The reason that the street sam put up with the pre-pubescent otaku punk (SR3) or knowingly worked with a cyberterrorist (SR4) is because he specialized in killing people, not moving electrons around a computer screen.

To answer the how long does it take question--to brick a device, you need to fill its Matrix damage meter. It's offline and powered down until it can be repaired. If the tech makes a critical glitch on the repair, it's permanently a bricked device.
binarywraith
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 24 2013, 08:35 AM) *
To answer the how long does it take question--to brick a device, you need to fill its Matrix damage meter. It's offline and powered down until it can be repaired. If the tech makes a critical glitch on the repair, it's permanently a bricked device.


Since I don't have a book, I'll ask you. Is there at least a sidebar for what happens when this occurs with headware like an encephalon, or nervous system mods like move by wire or wired reflexes?
Irion
@hermit
When you loose your ware you get your essence back or an essence hole for new ware. So please do not take me for that stupid.

@Wakshaani
QUOTE
Yeah, but now you have a few questions to deal with.
1) What price difference is there for, say, a Troll arm instead of a human arm?
2) Can my human buy an Ork arm? How about a Troll arm?
3) If I yank the arm off a dead Ork and get it attached, why is that different than buying one myself?
4) If the attributes reduce to my level, why? What's the in-game reason?
5) Similarly, if my Troll rips the arm off an Elf and attatches it and teh attributes move to match his, what's the reasoning for that?

He awnsered them.
1) None
2) The attributes of the arm are your natural ones. So yeah you can do that, it would just look silly and do nothing from a mechanical point of few.
A troll arm on an strength 2 human would have strength 2.
3) Beacuse! Alright: Because it can not run on full efficience because your body is not used to it. You need to spend Karma getting used to..
4)Because your body can't handle it. Jesus most of the bioware in the book would kill you and not make you stronger in the real world. Thats like bitching about how radiation is handled in fallout games.
5) Alright: So you get the lower ones. Now satisfied?

I mean honstly, every time you get shot you would probably loose attribute points in the real life and would need to train to get back to the level you were before. Severe injuries would nerly put you on square one. But thats not fun for most people.

So honestly I do not see the problem since in the new rules the natural attribute is used to determin the maximum. Why can't it be used to determin the attributes of your cyberarm?
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Irion @ Jun 24 2013, 06:35 AM) *
@cryptoknight

Not comparable, since in one case you only loose mony and in the other case you loose Karma and money.
Not to mention that one thing is a one time risk and the other would be there every run multible times.

I don't have anything against those "hook your stuff up to the matrix rule" in general. It is a good idea from a gamist point of few, but the rewards should match the risks.
It is probably better to tune the risks down, than to give "I am a GOD" like rewards but it can't be high risk low reward or even high risk you need to take to keep up with no-risks approaches...


It is comparable, as my mundane sacrificed essence to install that stuff. Meaning that I accept that magical healing will be less effectual with me, so that I could get this stuff installed.

To a mundane, money = karma. And Cyberware is supposed to be at least a semi-equalizer to the uber magi. Since there exists a small chance that I can my stuff hacked, bricked, and then the guy operating on my now-quadriplegic self could critically glitch while trying to fix it, then mages should live in the same land of risk with the gear that they use.
BishopMcQ
Binary--There's no sidebar, but my understanding is the device stops functioning. Wired Reflexes, you would stop getting the bonuses. If someone wants to say that you are paralyzed because your Wired Reflexes have been bricked, they are talking out of the wrong orifice.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 07:14 AM) *
I think it will eventually be made clear that cyberware has one or more external ports for maintenance.
.


For Wired Reflexes? If it bricks, the whole system is shorted out and smoking burned plastic and bits per the description of bricking. You're talking about the same level of medical institution that it takes to install the stuff in the first place in order to fix it. The description of Bricking is such that pieces and parts have to be fixed... you can't fix them by accessing a small data port for diagnostics, you can't even get diagnostics from them, once they are bricked.
hermit
QUOTE
When you loose your ware you get your essence back or an essence hole for new ware. So please do not take me for that stupid.

Read the rules about essence holes in SR4, Limits in SR5, and the forum rules about offensive posting, thanks.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 24 2013, 09:38 AM) *
Since I don't have a book, I'll ask you. Is there at least a sidebar for what happens when this occurs with headware like an encephalon, or nervous system mods like move by wire or wired reflexes?



It's obvious nobody thought of that... they thought of bricked cyber-arms, which are relatively easily accessible, not nervous system replacements.
BishopMcQ
Crypto--My understanding, unless you are reading from a different page, is that it takes 1 hour, a toolbox and a Hardware test to fix Matrix damage. There are even mechanics to speed that up as necessary. Getting into the nitty gritty of this device is implanted without any access points and that one isn't seems to be arguing for the sake of argument.

Please show me the page number that you are referring to. I'm on p 228
hermit
QUOTE
they thought of bricked cyber-arms, which are relatively easily accessible, not nervous system replacements.

I really hope they gave a little more thought about that, but ... well. I'll see on Jul 11 or whenever Bills graces us with the Matrix preview, I guess.

QUOTE
Getting into the nitty gritty of this device is implanted without any access points and that one isn't seems to be arguing for the sake of argument.

No, plausibility. Saying whether something is readily accessible or located inside someone's body doesn't matter sounds a bit strange, really. Or do you really believe that whether the encephalon is in someone's brain or on a desk, that doesn't matter a thing when you go at it with soldering iron, wire clipper and exchanging chips and components?
Irion
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 03:47 PM) *
Read the rules about essence holes in SR4, Limits in SR5, and the forum rules about offensive posting, thanks.

So you tell me, if I had 4.0 points of essence in SR 4 and replaced my muscle augmentation 3 with an muscle augmentation 4, I would be down to 3.2 Essence because I "lost" the essence by removing it.

If you replace your broken cyberware you will have EXACTLY the same amount of Essence as you had before. If you replace your broken focus you will have not exactly the same amount of Karma as you had before.
Do you disagree with that statement or not.
hermit
QUOTE
If you replace your broken cyberware you will have EXACTLY the same amount of Essence as you had before. If you replace your broken focus you will have not exactly the same amount of Karma as you had before.
Do you disagree with that statement or not.

You are comparing a currency ressource with a hard-capped ressource. Do you even understand the difference? And you just ignore the impact of Essence on Limits. You seem to be unable to understand that. That's a pity, because then, arguing with you is impossible.
BishopMcQ
Hermit -- Unless your monthly visit to the cyberdoc includes full sedation and brain surgery, it seems reasonable to say that there is an access port. Then again, if your table wants maintenance of cyber to be harder, more power to you. There were rules for implantation complications and healing grievous wounds in previous cyber books, they will probably come out again to provide more realism for the tables that want it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 23 2013, 02:42 PM) *
Again going by SR4 rules: Ever heared of triangulation? You can pinpoint the physical location of a wireless device. So if 12347A85A1362845 is a cyberlimb and located where your opponent's arm is, it is what to hack when you want to devicehack his cyberarm. That's how it worked in SR4, anyway. Unless you used skinlink, like every player.


Triangulation was only good to a point within a 50 Meters Radius (so that you could not pinpoint to within less than a meter, like we can do today). That is a lot of space... How many devices can fit in that space?
hermit
QUOTE
Triangulation was only good to a point within a 50 Meters Radius (so that you could not pinpoint to within less than a meter, like we can do today). That is a lot of space... How many devices can fit in that space?

Matrix perception allows you to positively identify a device and what it does. I offered a possible explanation for this. It may have been a bad explanation, but that doesn't change what Matrix perception in SR4 does.

QUOTE
Unless your monthly visit to the cyberdoc includes full sedation and brain surgery, it seems reasonable to say that there is an access port. Then again, if your table wants maintenance of cyber to be harder, more power to you.

Does Update Thursday require your computer to have parts exchanged?

If bricking was wrecking the firmware, a port would be sufficient. If bricking - as the wording says - is hardware damage, you need full sedation and brain surgery, because the hardware is in the brain.

Edit: I guess I will just wait until I have the actual rules to have something more definite to say on this matter. Thanks for the answers so far, BishopMQ.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 24 2013, 09:49 AM) *
Crypto--My understanding, unless you are reading from a different page, is that it takes 1 hour, a toolbox and a Hardware test to fix Matrix damage. There are even mechanics to speed that up as necessary. Getting into the nitty gritty of this device is implanted without any access points and that one isn't seems to be arguing for the sake of argument.

Please show me the page number that you are referring to. I'm on p 228



Where I'm at is... What exactly do you perform the hardware test upon? Without a Surgical theatre, you can't get at the parts to do the repair work. For a Cyber-arm or leg, etc... I get it... you open some access panels, and replace some melted wires or whatnot.

But Wired Reflexes? Brain Augmentations? I just take my handy dandy pliers and do central nervous system repair or brain work while I'm sitting there with bricked stuff?

Do you realize how implausible that sounds?
Aaron
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Jun 24 2013, 09:45 AM) *
For Wired Reflexes? If it bricks, the whole system is shorted out and smoking burned plastic and bits per the description of bricking. You're talking about the same level of medical institution that it takes to install the stuff in the first place in order to fix it. The description of Bricking is such that pieces and parts have to be fixed... you can't fix them by accessing a small data port for diagnostics, you can't even get diagnostics from them, once they are bricked.

No, I am not talking about the same level of medical institution that it takes to install the stuff in the first place. You're talking about that. Ever had a CPU burn out? It can be a bit sparky and melty, depending on how it fails. Doesn't fry the hard drive. Or the keyboard. Anyway, we've had lots of practice, just in the 2010's, with endoscopic surgery.

But if you'd like physical damage to be included in the bricking of cyberware, I can add it to the wish list for future source books and see what the team that puts that source book together thinks. I don't think most of 'em would like it, though. I wouldn't, at least.
Irion
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 03:56 PM) *
You are comparing a currency ressource with a hard-capped ressource. Do you even understand the difference? And you just ignore the impact of Essence on Limits. You seem to be unable to understand that. That's a pity, because then, arguing with you is impossible.

Because it is not relevant. Or did you not have this limitation while your cyberware was active? Well, I guessed so.

By your logic it is only fair, because you know people can also banish the spell I have cast as a mage and if the drain left me with a box of damage I might have gotten a dicepool modifier because of that.

Thats totally uninteresting!
The question is: What resources do you loose if you want to go back to the status you had before.

Is it money, Karma or just time and how much of it.

That you are fucked up when it happens does not really matter. If you get shot, it is the same deal. And I guess nobody would argue that the existance of firearms breaks shadowrun.
The point is it is considered bad sportsmenship to steal players their resources. This holds espacially true for meta-resources like Karma.

Nobody has a problem when a character is out, because he got shot. But if the GM says, after your team brought you to a street doch: "Alright, you squadmate safed you, but because you were hurt bad you loose 2 points of agility!" That would be considered to be not very nice of the GM, I guess.

QUOTE
Matrix perception allows you to positively identify a device and what it does.

So now you know that SJLKHEF2943 is a cyberarm and it does cyberarm stuff. But who tells you it is the correct one. And from where do you know for what you will be looking in the first place...
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 10:08 AM) *
No, I am not talking about the same level of medical institution that it takes to install the stuff in the first place. You're talking about that. Ever had a CPU burn out? It can be a bit sparky and melty, depending on how it fails. Doesn't fry the hard drive. Or the keyboard. Anyway, we've had lots of practice, just in the 2010's, with endoscopic surgery.

But if you'd like physical damage to be included in the bricking of cyberware, I can add it to the wish list for future source books and see what the team that puts that source book together thinks. I don't think most of 'em would like it, though. I wouldn't, at least.


And when my CPU burns out, I have to open the case (body of said character), remove the parts (surgery to get at them), clean off any melted thermal paste, and then replace a component, and then close up the case.

We're back to surgical theatre in order to get to the parts to fix them.
hermit
QUOTE ("Aaron")
But if you'd like physical damage to be included in the bricking of cyberware, I can add it to the wish list for future source books and see what the team that puts that source book together thinks.

Passive aggressiveness is rarely helpful, and this is not one of this instances.

QUOTE
The question is: What resources do you loose if you want to go back to the status you had before.

Essence loss is permanent attribute loss that impacts your character forever. You pay this as part of the price for cyberware. Karma, though, is in-game currecny, just like Nuyen. It is earned metaphysically in-game, but in metagame view, it is currency just like Nuyen. Hence, Karma loss is equal to Nuyen loss, not to permanent attribute damage. Last response on this.
Moirdryd
Perhaps because of the RFID tag that's connected to the AR overlay of you stood there using said Cyberlimb to fire an Ingram Smartgun [[production batch serial #54467. Smartgun ACTIVE]] at the corpsec guys over there. [[APDS rounds identified, serial code ARES22/1. Would you like to know more about the offers from Weapons World this week?]]

Thats WHY having the thing connected to the Matrix is DUMB. It's telling those who know what to look for where to look and what it is and where it is.
Irion
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 04:18 PM) *
Essence loss is permanent attribute loss that impacts your character forever. You pay this as part of the price for cyberware. Karma, though, is in-game currecny, just like Nuyen. It is earned metaphysically in-game, but in metagame view, it is currency just like Nuyen. Hence, Karma loss is equal to Nuyen loss, not to permanent attribute damage. Last response on this.

First of all Essence loss can be repaired using, ah well money.
Second of all, somebody hacking your cyberware DOES NOT CAUSE YOU TO LOOSE ESSENCE.
If you reactivate it or if you replace you will have the same essence score as you had before.
If hacking cyberware would be a possibility to cause Essence loss, this would be a totally different can of worms.

If somebody destroys your focus it does not cost you Karma because the focus was destroyed, it cost you Karma because you need Karma to get to the point you were on before the attack occured.

An other thing would be for example a spell fetisch. If somebody kills your spell fetisch you can't use a special spell you paid Karma for to have. But this does not mean you have lost Karma, because rebuying this fetisch will totaly deal with this issue.

Honestly i am under the impression that a lot of people tend to interpret the worst possible meaning into this rule.
And even with the limited knowledge I have it nearly seems certain that 50% of the claims are just dead wrong...
Aaron
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2013, 10:18 AM) *
Passive aggressiveness is rarely helpful, and this is not one of this instances.

I'm actually quite serious. I can see where having that level of debilitation might be more realistic or even cinematic, and so such a suggestion should at least be considered. At the moment there's nothing in the rules that says that bricking causes any secondary effect. So it's perfectly legit to throw the idea in the mix.

hermit
"Stop criticising my rules or else"? And while this level of debilitation indeed is more realistic, nobody wants it, just as universally hackable (or downgraded) cyberware in general. Again, I'm curious about the reason behind introducing this in a more forceful manner.
Grinder
Aaron, hermit: watch your tone.
Sendaz
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 24 2013, 10:35 AM) *
To touch on the Foci question. SR5 has an entire page devoted to turning off and permanently destroying a focus. (SR5, p 307) There's also the dispelling angle for unraveling spells that are sustained.
Good to know, being able to disable/destroy an enemy foci as well as breaking a sustained is always handy.


QUOTE
To answer the how long does it take question--to brick a device, you need to fill its Matrix damage meter. It's offline and powered down until it can be repaired. If the tech makes a critical glitch on the repair, it's permanently a bricked device.

How noticeable would that be? I assume once the system comes under attack it would probably pop an alert of some sort, though probably not specifically saying 'HELP I'M BEING HACKED' or same, but rather registering an error or some such?

Moral of the story: If the equivalent of your Check Engine light pops up for your cyber in the middle of a run, do not ignore it.

Just had a thought, if your cyber is being hacked and you want your own decker to help, either you have to grant him access (plug in or some kind of pass code) or you will lose precious time while the decker probably has to hack his way past your item's normal defenses to even get in to help. Hope you are on good terms or someone may drag their electronic feet. nyahnyah.gif
Fatum
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 07:08 PM) *
No, I am not talking about the same level of medical institution that it takes to install the stuff in the first place. You're talking about that. Ever had a CPU burn out? It can be a bit sparky and melty, depending on how it fails. Doesn't fry the hard drive. Or the keyboard. Anyway, we've had lots of practice, just in the 2010's, with endoscopic surgery.

But if you'd like physical damage to be included in the bricking of cyberware, I can add it to the wish list for future source books and see what the team that puts that source book together thinks. I don't think most of 'em would like it, though. I wouldn't, at least.
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 07:43 PM) *
I'm actually quite serious. I can see where having that level of debilitation might be more realistic or even cinematic, and so such a suggestion should at least be considered. At the moment there's nothing in the rules that says that bricking causes any secondary effect. So it's perfectly legit to throw the idea in the mix.


So let me get this straight. The device that replaces your spine bricks, sending smoke and sparks inside your body, but the effect is that you lose the bonuses from the weird reflexes, and that's it? This is the most gamist approach imaginable, with the supposed physical reality behind the rules not even considered. Will a bricked cyberheart also continue pumping blood?
In what comes to cyberware with access ports mandatory: have you maybe considered that some cyberware is meant to be hidden? Like, I dunno, headware, nanohives, a lot of bodyware, everything having to do with disguise?
On a side note, if your CPU goes out in flames, you're throwing out your mb (because the power conduits are going as well), your HDD will have a chance to damage its surface, and with the kind of power flux required to light a CPU on fire, it's also quite likely the rest of your machine's contents will be fried.
Bull
It was done for simplicity and to provide a game effect. Feel free to up the impact for your home game if you feel like it.

Instead of considering it physically damaged, consider it simply shut down until a hard reboot can be done? I dunno.

You guys are overthinking it again. It's a game.
Aaron
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 24 2013, 11:14 AM) *
How noticeable would that be? I assume once the system comes under attack it would probably pop an alert of some sort, though probably not specifically saying 'HELP I'M BEING HACKED' or same, but rather registering an error or some such?

A device (along with its owner) becomes aware that it is under attack when a successful Attack action is performed against it or when an unsuccessful Sleaze action is performed against it. Incidentally, Attack actions cause damage, Sleaze actions don't.

QUOTE
Moral of the story: If the equivalent of your Check Engine light pops up for your cyber in the middle of a run, do not ignore it.

Precisely. In fact, I think this is my favorite sentence of the day. =i)

QUOTE
So let me get this straight. The device that replaces your spine bricks, sending smoke and sparks inside your body, but the effect is that you lose the bonuses from the weird reflexes, and that's it? This is the most gamist approach imaginable, with the supposed physical reality behind the rules not even considered. Will a bricked cyberheart also continue pumping blood?

I don't know about the most gamist approach, but I can't argue that it isn't pretty gamey. And I think a dead person as the result of a bricked cyberheart is well within the current rules; bricked devices stop working.

As for wired reflexes, SR5 says it's a multitude of neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators (a description that goes back all the way to SR1), so I'm not so sure it's far-fetched to assume that the bricking happens to the control unit. It also describes the ability to turn the wired reflexes off (something that goes back at least to SR3 if not earlier), so having non-functional wired reflexes probably isn't debilitating.

QUOTE
In what comes to cyberware with access ports mandatory: have you maybe considered that some cyberware is meant to be hidden? Like, I dunno, headware, nanohives, a lot of bodyware, everything having to do with disguise?

In most of the images I've seen, folks with implants seem to have seams along parts of their skin. That implies to me a panel that might be removed. And like I said, even if there's no such thing as cyberware designed to be serviced from outside the body, endoscopic surgery is pretty good (and common) nowadays, and would be even better in the 2070's, I imagine.

But I agree with BishopMcQ. In the absence of solid rules, the details of cybernetic maintenance is completely up to the players and the GM at your table. Actually, I'm wrong about that; even if there are solid rules, you can run your game any way that's fun for you and your friends.
Epicedion
Settle down, people. Here's a list of things to consider:

1) When you're talking about something specifically like Wired Reflexes, the Wired Reflexes (synaptic upgrades) themselves are pretty sacrosanct. What you'd really have to worry about would be the Reflex Trigger, which I think has been a mandatory part of the package since SR4. That thing would probably sit at the base of the skull and be easier to access for repairs than your entire central nervous system. Also I think I've heard that Wired Reflexes just works, but Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers need to be wireless-on. For a "safe" version, there's always whatever they're calling Boosted Reflexes now.

2) For a grittier, harder-edged game, a mechanic a la dumpshock could be easily crafted for spillover damage from damaged cyberware -- at least the stuff that hooks up to the brain.

3) What I'm actually concerned about, and I think this is what you should focus on, is the trend of certain cyberware to be unappealing compared to standard tech alternatives -- the contacts with vision enhancements and smartlink, the earbuds with noise filters, et cetera. The stuff that takes effects that are normally the domain of Essence-cost cyberware, has no real downsides, and with "bricking" being a thing are far easier to deal with. IE, bricked cybereyes make you blind and there's nothing you can do about it, bricked glasses you can just take off.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Bull @ Jun 24 2013, 11:08 AM) *
It was done for simplicity and to provide a game effect. Feel free to up the impact for your home game if you feel like it.

Instead of considering it physically damaged, consider it simply shut down until a hard reboot can be done? I dunno.

You guys are overthinking it again. It's a game.


Bull, man, I love you, but this isn't overthinking.

This is one of the important bits of game design that Shadowrun is usually good at. If there is a game condition that disables a thing, there must also be an in-game explanation for why, and this in-game explanation needs to make sense within the game world.
Bull
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 24 2013, 12:27 PM) *
Bull, man, I love you, but this isn't overthinking.

This is one of the important bits of game design that Shadowrun is usually good at. If there is a game condition that disables a thing, there must also be an in-game explanation for why, and this in-game explanation needs to make sense within the game world.


Here's the short answer for you then...

SR5 is a 480 page rulebook that was already over the word budget by a lot (It was originally slated to be around 400). So not everything could go in there. So we focused on rules, largely, and the important world-building and world-fluff.

This? Not important. At least not to most people.

WHen the Man & Machine/Augmentation/WHatever we call it book comes out, I expect that bopok will have advanced cybersurgery and healing rules, and will be a chance to explain more of this stuff in detail. And I fully expect we'll see that stuff there.

For now... Assume one of three explanations:

1) Access panels/ports that you can access.

2) Microscopic, endoscopic repairs.

3) That the device isn't necessarily physically damaged, but is just soft/firmware locked. So you need to spend some time rebooting and recalibrating the augmentation wirelessly.

I'm not saying ignore it. Just saying, you want too much too soon.

Bull
Bull
I will also note that it is awesome that you guys are that passionate and interested in wanting to know it all, and know it all NOW. smile.gif

Unfortunately, there's only so much we can do and provide at this time. Have patience, please.
Fatum
QUOTE (Bull @ Jun 24 2013, 09:08 PM) *
It was done for simplicity and to provide a game effect. Feel free to up the impact for your home game if you feel like it.
You guys are overthinking it again. It's a game.
Do I have to go on this rant again? Rulesystems are meant to represent some coherent version of reality, with most of the physical laws similar to our own, except those specifically said to differ for some reason. For instance, in SR Shannon's Laws, Kotelnikov Theorem and other foundational principles of electronics are the same, but the foundations of cryptography have fallen to revolutionary decryption developments.
Designing rules not to represent the possible interactions, but to work within a specific framework of abstract effects is turning an RPG into a boardgame, where it matters little what the rule represents as long as it works fine mechanically.


QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 09:15 PM) *
And I think a dead person as the result of a bricked cyberheart is well within the current rules; bricked devices stop working.
If bricked devices stop working, and a few implants replace organs, why would bricking those implants not lead to organ failure?

QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 09:15 PM) *
endoscopic surgery is pretty good (and common) nowadays, and would be even better in the 2070's, I imagine.
So, to unbrick your (internal) implant you need hospital conditions and a highly professional medic?
Imagine a unit of cybered-up fighters waging a war in the jungle. Now suppose they have a hacker hiding somewhere in the treetops. Are they to stop, break camp, establish clean zone (if they have the means to do so to begin with) and unbrick their implants after his attack?

QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 24 2013, 09:15 PM) *
In the absence of solid rules, the details of cybernetic maintenance is completely up to the players and the GM at your table. Actually, I'm wrong about that; even if there are solid rules, you can run your game any way that's fun for you and your friends.
So then, the core book is a half-baked product that I'm supposed to tinker with myself, establishing actual rulesystem, instead of getting a working one for the money I pay? Nice to know.
Aaron
Fatum, it's like Bull said. I can only offer speculation, I certainly don't have all the answers. If you want to run your game differently than from how I'd run it, I'm down with that. Meanwhile, I look with just as much anticipation as you toward the sourcebook that might cover these issues.
Epicedion
Well what of the unintended consequences? Will we see hacking of adrenal regulators to max them out and give the user a heart attack? Hacking skillwires with malicious instruction sets ("to shoot target, aim gun at your own face, pull trigger")? Hacking internal air tanks to vent their contents and then flip over to internal mode to suffocate the user?

Of course the rules say you can deal matrix damage, blah blah blah, but what's the universe say?
bonehead
QUOTE (Bull @ Jun 24 2013, 01:51 PM) *
I will also note that it is awesome that you guys are that passionate and interested in wanting to know it all, and know it all NOW. smile.gif

Unfortunately, there's only so much we can do and provide at this time. Have patience, please.


I learned all I need to know about patience from Queen: "I want it all, I want it all, and I want it now!" nyahnyah.gif
Critias
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Jun 24 2013, 06:32 AM) *
Let's also look at what Bricking does...

You Brick my wired Reflexes... essentially my central nervous system... it sparks and explodes and crackles and pops (Bricking pg 228).

Rendering my character at best a Quadrapalegic (because uh I dunno.. my central nervous system stopped working per the definition of Bricking?) until such a time as a surgeon can open me up so a technician can replace parts. And if said technician manages a critical Glitch... you might as well bury my character.

Yeah, if someone hacks their way past your PAN and fills up the matrix damage track of your Wired Reflexes, bad things happen (though I would argue that you're still handling it in the least charitable and most punishing way, who's to say that bricked Wired Reflexes doesn't just mean you lose the bonus of those Reflexes, instead of it having to mean your character's whole CNS shuts down?. And yes, if, after all that, someone also critically glitches their Hardware test to fix your Wired Reflexes, worse things happen.

But you know what? Bad things happen when the Street Samurai fills up the Decker's non-matrix damage track, too, right, or when the combat mage Fireballs everybody? And bad stuff happens if you critically glitch a First Aid roll. Why aren't you up in arms and complaining about how "you might as well bury my character" if you get shot in the face and then the street doc glitches (which is when, y'know, you really should probably bury a character)? And it's not like folks can just choose to make their bodies off-bullet or off-mojo to make yourself totally immune to those attacks, the same way folks can put their Wired Reflexes (and everything else) off-line to make themselves totally immune to hacking.

Bad things happen to you in Shadowrun, if you can't defend yourself (and especially if you can't defend yourself, and then get a CG). There's a new axis of "defend yourself" in town, that once again encourages runners to work in packs and for everyone to bring something to the table, all while still offering you the choice to almost completely ignore it, if you just don't take the carrot that wireless bonuses offer.
Fatum
So it punishes you for not exposing yourself to the attacks coming from out of LOS, the originator of which you have no way to detect. Glorious gamedesign.
BishopMcQ
Or conversely, rewards the people who are crazy and desperate enough to try.
Critias
Okay, is anyone else picking up some sort of cynical self-fulfilling prophecy vibe here? Honestly? Are some of you even aware of what you're doing? Can I be the only one who's noticed this pattern? Here, look, you can see cries and hues/clarification/response happening, over and over again:

Cries and hues of bricking being terrible and unfair because it means things are broken forever. Clarification, as we explain that's not what bricking does in-game, it's not that bad. Response? Complaints that that's not how bricking actually works, it should mean things are broken forever (disclaimer: this one was dropped, at least, after secondary clarification, but it still seems to have started this trend, and it fits into the pattern of behavior here, so I'm including it).

Cries and hues of bricking cyberware being totally unfun and overpowered because it means all manner of nasty and fatal secondary effects. Clarification, as we explain that's not what bricking does in-game, it just turns your stuff off. Response? Complaints that that's not realistic, and bricking should totally do worse stuff like paralyze or kill you.

Cries and hues of bricking cyberware being the worst thing since Hitler because it certainly means a full surgery is required to diagnose and repair. Clarification, as we explain that's still not what it does, it's not that bad, and that quick, perhaps even external or wireless, diagnostics can fix it. Response? Complaints that it totally should require all that, because otherwise Dr. House is out of a job.

Seriously, you guys. Do you even see that? Do you even see how this keeps playing out, time and again, in this thread? A few folks get all up in arms about how terrible something is (by which I mean "how terrible it will probably be when I ever get to see the book, or how terrible it could be if I read the rules in the meanest-spirited way, the way a GM would who hates his players and also the sun would read them"). And then word spreads, and everyone reads that interpretation or implication and just goes with it, flipping over cop cars and lighting shit on fire while chanting "NO KARMA NO PEACE" while they riot about how terrible the new game is. Then there are attempts at clarifying, where we put out a fire here and there, share some info from the book because we know the overwhelming majority of people haven't got it yet, and because that implication or interpretation is incorrect...but then the response is, like, complaining that we clarified, and insisting that only the least charitable, cruelest, most negative interpretation could possibly be right.

So folks make up the nastiest way a new rule could work, insist that's how it must work, complain about it working that way and how the game is ruined now...and then, when corrected, insist that their interpretation is the correct one (so that they can masochistically go on complaining).

This is baffling to me.
Daedelus
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 24 2013, 11:02 AM) *
So it punishes you for not exposing yourself to the attacks coming from out of LOS, the originator of which you have no way to detect. Glorious gamedesign.


Yes. there is a Stick in the Carrot AND Stick approach. If you do not want to risk attack, you are choosing to forego the reward or benefit. In this and many other threads there have been people saying that the bennies do not warrant the risk. I say to those people keep wireless off then. If I think the benefit outweighs the risk I will turn it on, if I don't then it stays off. It will be on a case by case basis for me. We are not forced to have it all on or all off. I don't see why that is such a hard concept to accept?
DrZaius
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 24 2013, 03:14 PM) *
Okay, is anyone else picking up some sort of cynical self-fulfilling prophecy vibe here? Honestly? Are some of you even aware of what you're doing? Can I be the only one who's noticed this pattern? Here, look:

Cries and hues of bricking being terrible and unfair because it means things are broken forever. Clarification, as we explain that's not what bricking does in-game, it's not that bad. Response? Complaints that that's not how bricking actually works, it should mean things are broken forever (disclaimer: this one was dropped, at least, after secondary clarification, but it still seems to have started this trend, and it fits into the pattern of behavior here, so I'm including it).

Cries and hues of bricking cyberware being totally unfun and overpowered because it means all manner of nasty and fatal secondary effects. Clarification, as we explain that's not what bricking does in-game, it just turns your stuff off. Response? Complaints that that's not realistic, and bricking should totally do worse stuff like paralyze or kill you.

Cries and hues of bricking cyberware being the worst thing since Hitler because it certainly means a full surgery is required to diagnose and repair. Clarification, as we explain that's still not what it does, it's not that bad, quick, perhaps even external or wireless, diagnostics can fix it. Response? Complaints that it totally should require all that, because otherwise Dr. House is out of a job.

Seriously, you guys. Do you even see that? Do you even see how this keeps playing out, time and again, in this thread? A few folks get all up in arms about how terrible something is (by which I mean "how terrible it will probably be when I ever get to see the book, or how terrible it could be if I read the rules in the meanest-spirited way, the way a GM would who hates his players and also the sun would read tem"). And then word spreads, and everyone reads that interpretation or implication and just goes with it, flipping over cop cars and lighting shit on fire while chanting "NO KARMA NO PEACE" while they riot about how terrible the new game is. Then there are attempts at clarifying, where we put out a fire here and there, share some info from the book because we know the overwhelming majority of people haven't got it yet, and because that implication or interpretation is incorrect...but then the response is, like, complaining that we clarified, and insisting that only the least charitable, cruelest, most negative interpretation could possibly be right.

So folks make up the nastiest way a new rule could work, insist that's how it must work, complain about it working that way and how the game is ruined now...and then, when corrected, insist that their interpretation is the correct one (so that they can masochistically go on complaining).

This is baffling to me.


Reading this entire thread, and DS in general, I get this impression as well. I can't begin to fathom how charitable it is that the devs actually read these boards and respond to the juvenile complaints, reading the (or in this case, guessing!) rules in the least favorable light. When I get a copy of the PDF, I'm going to read it, adjust anything I don't like, houserule as much as I want, and get some coffee. I will also live longer than people having a coronary about a book that has required heavy editing to make it's page count, so the Devs MUST HAVE IT OUT FOR THE STREET SAMURAI.

YMMV.
tasti man LH
It might be due to everyone's general jaded-ness and general low expectations and opinion of Catalyst as well, and as such are expecting the worst possible outcome.
Sendaz
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jun 24 2013, 03:18 PM) *
When I get a copy of the PDF, I'm going to read it, adjust anything I don't like, houserule as much as I want, and get some coffee.
YMMV.

Amen smile.gif
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