If there where actual bonuses and not stolen basic functions, yeah nothing would change.
But as they aren't there are some very fundemental changes like making a lot of gear pointless as they no longer do what their supposed to do bu fluff, witch is quite sad on a book thats so much over the word count that many important things couldn't fit in.

But other cyberware -- like the "oh no, wired reflexes got hacked, now I'm quadriplegic and have a huge Essence hole and I'm out a hojillion nuyen!" -- doesn't necessarily mean that. Wired Reflexes are clearly stated as additions, not replacements, for instance. So I, personally, would just have them act like they were turned off (losing all functionality), and suddenly someone's slowed back down to normal human. That's still gonna whip a monkeywrench into the sammie's plans, but it's hardly crippling him for life the way some people assumed/implied/prophecied.

And, FWIW, I could just as easily see a GM rule that a hacked cyberheart might just stop giving whatever augmentation a cyberheart gives (since cyberhearts aren't a thing in SR5 yet, I'm not sure what to tell you). Maybe normally a cyberheart gives extra Athletics dice like Synthacardium, or it raises the Physical Limit to represent extra physicality? I dunno. No one does. And then it gets hacked, and it just drops to barely-decent mundane operation, moves some blood around your body, you have a mild heart attack, and that's that. I can see a GM interpreting it either way.

In fact, I, personally, have no problem with a GM interpreting it either way based on what's best for his player (because that's how I roll). If a cold-blooded decker wants to assassinate a bad guy corporate executive by bricking his Pacemaker 2075, and can get to it because it's linked to a biomonitor on his PAN with his DocWagon shit...well, why not? I'd let him give it a shot, maybe I'd make it require some marks in addition to bricking it, or whatever, but cool. Roll the dice, and if it'll be awesome, I'll roll with it. On the other hand, if I have a player that (for some reason) has a cyberheart, and (for some reason) doesn't have the wireless disabled on it, and (for some reason) doesn't want to burn a point of Edge to stay alive when it gets hacked? Well, I'm a softy in my old age, so maybe I let the guy live (but throw him some stun damage, and he loses whatever bonuses a cyberheart brings) as his heart reboots.

But the point is that a conversation about a cyberheart is kind of moot right now, because that particular piece of chrome doesn't seem to exist just yet. We can talk about some things very specifically (Wired Reflexes, for instance), and we can talk about the bricking rules themselves very generally (but, again, while referring to page numbers that don't do most people any good)...but, frankly, this "got'cha!" crap is exactly what I mean when I talk about how frustrating it is to be a freelance lightning rod, sometimes.

I'm sorry that Aaron and I gave answers that you feel are contradictory. This will surprise some of you more than others, but you know what? Aaron and I disagree on an awful lot of stuff. So while we're both juggling other assignments, taking our personal time to tab away from Word documents and Google Group chats and email chains, and skimming a thread to try and give a conversational answer to dampen the hyperbole and Chicken Littling? Yeah. Sometimes maybe we're gonna interpret the fluffy stuff a little differently, and give personal opinions that don't quite match up, when asked, on the spot, to rule on absolute hypotheticals like cyberware that doesn't exist yet.

No, as I'm sure you were already guessing, they don't. But I'm sure you were also already able to guess that attribute boost is still temporary, it still causes drain, it's still reliant on a die roll instead of being a steady enhancement, and that -- traditionally speaking -- mundane initiative enhancements are often much cheaper than Adept powers, right? And I doubt you suddenly forgot the prevalence and tradition of Adept creation threads that boil down to "get more 'ware, stupid, lol," and I'm sure you weren't planning on that trend suddenly and magically reversing.

This is the crap that's exhausting to answer, as I'm sure you're also smart enough to know. If I give an answer that implies Adepts are better than mundanes, it's a continuing dogpile on this thread about how terrible mundanes are (as recently happened with complaints about mages taking some cyberware). If I give an answer that implies the mundane option is still better for Adepts, it's a continuing dogpile about how broken the game is and how we can't fix simple SR4 problems.

Fun, huh?

So why cant we use the same basic security design in all other cyberware, for example when it comes to communication between ware (like wired reflexes and reactoin enhancers) and items (like chemical seal) or at least use a high powered supercomputer (like a cyberdeck) to replace "ubiquitos computing in the cloud" to prevent hacking?

As it has been said: no ingame reason, just out of game "the hacker must be useful in combat (while totally ignoring the hacker in SR4 and his manipulation of drones, tacnet and radio communication".



In that case the smartlink (as most other targeting systems like laserpointer) would not be developed (or much rarer and/or expensive) since accuracy for modern weapons would be usually too high for normal (trained) humans and only apply to SEAL team snipers.

###################

@Critias:
In that case you should only answer with "there is no ingame fluff verification, please read the blog of JH because there is the only (metagame) reason stated why this all happened: hacker must be useful in combat, because they could not hack (efficiently) in combat previously - stick and carotte".

SYL

Thats exactly the problem. The GM having to interpret and rule something. Consequences as severe as cyberware turned off should not be interpretable but spelled out very precisely in the rules and thought through by the developer and not implemented as an afterthought to facilitate a desireable game effect.

I have not said anything on bricking instantly turning weird reflexes into dust and ash, you're mistaking me for someone. The issue remains, though - okay, wired reflexes are just boosters implanted all over, reaction enhancers actually replace your spinal column. This is not about wired reflexes or reaction enhancers or cyberhearts (which exist in RL so have to exist for transplant patients in SR, even if not statted up as an implant useful for runners) per se, this is about how bricking works with implants in general, and if it's turning them off, sparks flying and smoke bellowing, as, if I remember the quote correctly, is written in the rules. Not about you and Aaron having different opinions and interpretations, but whether there exists a rule that explains what exactly happens and why, which eliminates the need for interpretations.

Seconded

Really?.... I mean Really??

The interpretation and ruling on situations and actions ect is GM 101. It's been the main reason for the role since the only term was DM and Gygax and Arneson were playing in the same game. The Consequences for "Turning Off" cyberware are spelled out and written and been quoted by Critias (and others) and that is to remove any bonuses they apply and run only at basic functionality (yeah, it's a bit game mechanicy, but not in a bad way or any more so than the assumptions in most RPG's) and seemingly Limbs are Unhackable due to a zero active matrix presence. Now the Cyberheart? While it almost certainly exists in the Sixth World (much as today) it doesn't exist in the Ruleset (yet anyway) for SR5. So you're not going to get a hard rule answer for something that doesn't have any hard rules. May as well ask how to perceive the Dreaming (CtD) or complain there are no stats for a Poland Main Model A Gauss Rifle because you need one for your -5S variant Maruader or if everything is wireless and a human's nervous and brain system are basically electrical why you cannot Ghosthack mundanes.

If you want no GM interpretation of a game then you don't want to be playing an RPG. I would recommend Descent or Caedwallon or other Skirmish/Boardgame adpatations with a social 'roleplay' aspect to the game.

Special cases should be subject to GM rulings. Basic most common situations should be covered by the rulesystem. That's why it exists to begin with, if you want GM rulings, play freeform.

I'd call hacking a non-listed, non-statted (and thus non-existent in a game context outside of GM say so) piece of cyberware a special case.

Reaction enhancers and any other implants replacing organs too?
That's without returning to the issue with implant unbricking.

It was pointed out to the line developer at the time that "nexi" wasn't a word. He decided he liked it anyway.

"All wireless frequencies" is a nonsense. The electromagnetic spectrum is huge, even if you limit yourself to the span between very-low-frequency radio to high-microwave. And I don't see why flower pots (or any non-specialized) would have the dedicated hardware to cover that whole range.


No we can't . And if I have to, I'll use microwave.

You can't "install" something like that, it's an electronics problem.

That's my whole point: if you make your PAN devices requiring even slight hardware modifications to talk to each other (which is a minor engineering problem) then all those surrounding, daily life devices require that hardware modification to talk to your PAN. The only think the enemy hacker can do is come within range with an electronics kit and do some non-standard electronics warfare.

Fatum, could I bother you to point out which implants completely replace organs? I couldn't find any in SR4 or Augmentation.

As Critias said. You lose the Bonuses provided by those bits of Cyberware (RAW). So your Reaction Enchancers (which I readily agree have NO Business being online in the first place, that bit is SILLY) are no longer providing +Reaction, they're just the same as your regular neural-spinal cord bio system was. Which when applied to Cybereyes I would imagine means you lose Thermograph, Optical enhancer etc, but doesn't make you go blind. It's handwavey I know but it's closer to the handwavey we're used to (FASAnomics) than the nonsense about Wired and Reflex being online to work together in the first place.

QFT.

Arguing with disagreeable people about a book they haven't read and are choosing to interpret in the least charitable light seems fairly unpleasant. I've been away from DS for a while, but I'm glad to see it hasn't changed...

-DrZ

Makes two of us DrZ

Cyberware that "replace for certain because its obvious" or have the word "replace" in the description:
cyberlimbs
cybereyes
cyberears
muscle replacement
reaction enhancers
flex hands
grip feet
smart articulation


Most problematic part: Most Cyberware is not described to a degree where one could make such a judgement. A GM wil have to make up everythin on the go. Very bad game design.


BTW:
Is bioware still better than cyberware in every stat except costs (like in SR4) AND also unhackable? Like Synaptic Accelerator?

I hate to say it, but I think you're a mile or two off base on cybereyes.

If the device is being disabled and shut down, what was the explanation for it still functioning as a camera again?

Other than the cybered target really, really wanting it to, I suppose.

A camera that's shut down doesn't record and transmit an image. That's fairly basic Shadowrun decking tactics in any edition. Just because the camera's installed in someone's eye socket doesn't really change anything, if it's going to be required to be hackable because reasons.

So now you don't brick the implant but only add-on modules attached to it (which, by the way, are their own little implant, if taken solo)? That isn't just handwaivy, that is just desperate.

Hey, it was guesswork for the keeping of Basic functionality. TBH I don't mind Eyes having a Matrix Bonus (I can see some of the sense in that) and have no issue with having them open to hacking to get the Bonus and if they get hacked then turning off completely.

Just working of some leaps of logic based on previews and what the Devs have said.

Of course the easiest 'fix' is play SR3 style. No hacking of Cyberware (which is where I'll mostly be anyway).

Ah, okay. Well, I guess we'll see the full extent of the problem on Jul 11.


If Wireless Boni were actual Boni I'd have much less problems with them. As is, mechanically, they're not; and just as problematic is replacing every (or most) +[dice] with +[limit], as Critas has said. What good is a Limit of 9 if you have only 10 dice to begin with?

This here's your biggest mistake, logic went out the window first thing before writing started.

I wish I got the impression that the Devs actually explored the possible secondary consequences of this particular mechanic as fully as we all have in kicking it around in the last 48 hours.

Edit : I write gud!

And failure in which of these organs will result in instant death for the owner?


For which augmentations do you find this to be the case?

Depending on where you are at the time, possibly all of them.

True. If you're hanging from the space needle by a single grip hand, yeah, I can see that being ... less than good. =i)

Not directly. But try being in combat when you are:

- blind
- deaf
- cant move because your spinal cords do not work
- cant use a limb
- cant use any muscles
- cant use your joints

The consequences are pretty severe. And the inital concern was not that you are dead, but that a hacker can harm you in an extreme way by shutting down vital cyberware (which is OK, as long as you do not force everything to be online all the time).



olfactory booster
balance augmenter
taste booster
move by wire
wired reflexes
bone lacing
gastric neurostimulator



You may say that most of the cyberware should not be mentioned here, because it has passive effects and shutting them down should not do anything. But in a world where wired reflexes and reflex boosters have anything to do with wireless to work properly, you never know (I still have to see what crazy cyberware wireless boni are in the book). Which is exactly my point of complaint:

If you make rules that are so far disconnected from the simulationists reality of the fluff, you have to rule everything, because basic assumptions are not valid anymore, when directly contradicted by rules.

You have to keep fluff and crunch in sync or you are direclty harming the ability of GM to interpret the rules when needed with reality and consistency as a guidline.

At the moment it is something like this:

Wait, your cyberware got shut down by a hacker.
Lets read the description of the ware ans see what it says.
Ok, seems like that should be no problem you can still do X.
Well no, by the description you should still be able to do X, but the extra bonus you get from wileless implies that the cyberware works like you can not do X any more when it is shut down.
Lets roll some dice and let chance decide if you can still do X.

Because that does NOT work. How could it?
You would need to make EVERYTHING hardwired to begin with. If a system is compramised be by a hacker or a malfunktion you need to get back to a safe basis. That means to kill everything which could be compramised or at the very least to try to use as few as possible.
Take a nuclear reactor. If everything goes hayway, the control elements drop in the reactor and shut the reaction down. Now you still need to cool it some time but there will be no increase in energy output and the reactor can't do anything to get back into a criticals situation.

Same with for example move by wire. If you leave it working it could send false impulses or something like that. Make you stumble or just break your arm. Depending on how "powerful" and "safe" the system is in general (and those direction tend to exclude each other). Of course it is questionable what will be still working and what won't. But I guess the rule, that you loose the bonus is not really that far out there. Even with cybereyes. It is just sending the information of your eyes through the nerves to your brain. Of course with no further additions. (Because those could be altered)
The only safe way (and thats what every computer expert today will tell you two) is shut it down and reboot from scraps. (Think about it that way: If it would be possible, hackers could not hack any system...


Heck, I am not saying that I am ok with every bonus given. But there were at least as many "bad" boni in SR4. Thats not really an argument.
You feel that things got weaker and you do not like it. Ok, fine with me. But I think you should only make such an assumption if you have seen "all of the rules". Because telling if something is "too weak" is quite hard if you do not know what else is possible and how things interact. (Finding something broken is easy, because no matter what else is in the book, it is still too powerful compared to what you have seen so far... )
The second point is, that you should please stop hiding behind the realism argument. It is really a no-argument in this case, because Cyberware in general is the kind of magical technology to begin with...
So the following questions are:
Is it realistic for an hacker to be able to hack cyberware, if it is connected to the matrix: Yes
Is it realistic for cyberware to just shut down to protect the user if it is compremised: Yes, I guess so.
Is it realistic for cyberware to work better if connected to the matrix: Heck, I do not know for I actually have no Idea how the matrix works. But it does not make the top 10 list of crazy things in Shadowrun, I guess.

Naturally some boni might be off. No argument there. Thats first of all a question of perception and interpretation of what those boni actually mean. But the same kind of argument can be made for boni from spells, bioware, cyberware and equipment in general...

The major problem here is, that nobody can just quote a whole paragraph from the book to tell you the fluff behind it. (I gave several possible explainations already, I can do it because I have no idea whats in the book)
What most people here are asking for is not one sentance, and nobody can just copy/paste pages of the book...


@Mäx
So what? Boni got changed between edition. Like that never happened before....

I disagree with this completely. My most powerful characters in game were neither a Technomancer nor a Mage.

Well, in SR4A, you could always use Strong Encryption to make your protocols a bit more robust, as long as you did not mind your own systems taking a bit of time to encrypt. My personal Favorite was Strong Encryption set at the Minute Level. You could go all the way to 24 Hour Level, but that would put an undue burden upon your own systems. At one minute, Hackers had a hard time doing things to comlinks/Ware/devices in active combat, but Signal Encryption was still fair game (since you could not use strong encryption with them).

If I were to write a fluff explanation to why cyberware that actively does something had to be wirelessly online I would say:
"The Corps want the ware they produce to be online so they can monitor their customers. So they built in throttles that make the full potential of ware available only when online. And they did not care if being online was necessary or benficial. They did however not require their ware to be online to work at all, to avoid lengthy legal proceedings when someone accidentially goes offline."
That would simply kill any argument about wether a smartgun needs GPS or windspeed data for firing in the basement (which is, in my opinion a rather strange idea). It would no longer be a technical requirement, just an "amazing service provided to you by Ares" for customers who know how to behave.

You are not getting it. You said yourself that basic system functionality could be made "hack proof". Apples question was rethoric. If you could make "something" hack proof, so that it works even when "bricked" why not make "everything" hack proof?

The right answer is: The premise, that you can make basic functionality hack proof, is wrong.

And shadowrunners would just modify their equipment so that they need not be online to get the full use of it.

I think there are ways to logically houserule that a wireless PAN handled by someone technically profficient is very difficult, either using SR4A lore or logic. Skinlinks, encryption, or tinkering directly with the frequency or analogue electronics are several ways to justify that hackers aren't the absolute masters of the world.

This has been addressed already: they wouldn't conceivably equip red sams with it (why make your own elite troops vulnerable and easy to take down?), and thus I don't think this excuse work for Shadowrunners and corporate security teams.

Cyberlimbs, cybereyes, cyberears and muscle replacement does not have a wireless bonus. Thus they will not be wireless enabled, and the decker can only brick them if he can plug a cable into them.



The flex hands, grip feet and smart articulation is not in the core rulebook.

Thank you Larsine. That clears that one up.

@Larsine:
OK, now, WHY do certain Implants get Online-Bonus AT ALL?
And why is "Stacks as it did with a cable only when WiFi is on" a Bonus?

Eyes have a bonus (seeing better and such, wasnt that one of the examples in the blog?). Ears most likely too (dont have the book).

But regardles:
Of course they are, at least cybereyes and cyberears. Every time a communication is streamed directly into the ear (for voice communication or other sounds) or eye (for video communication or live floor plans with enemy indicators and what not, all teh AR stuff) this is only working over a wireless connection.

It is called TacNet (as apple would say) and is most likely streamed over a comlink that is connected via the now extinct skinlink to eyes and ears.

And this makes much more sense than forcing ware to be online "just because".

Telling me that eyes and ears are not wirelessly connected to the world, while tehy are one of the few cyberware part where this actually makes sense is hilarious.

The problem is: That completely goes against the premise enacted by Mr Hardy and company. The entire reason the changes were made is that they believe that the Hacker had nothing positive to add to a combat scene. Therefore, the design implementation (all ware is hackable) for hackers to be able to actually do "Something" in combat was put into place. Nerver mind that the Hacker already had things to do "In Combat" that were very useful, and often powerful.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was responding to Fatum's claim that it would be possible to brick a cybersystem that replaced a vital organ and thereby instantly kill someone. I'm exploring Fatum's claim.

Of course no one would equip Red Sams with ware that has to be online. But they are not customers, they are elite troops. So they shouldn't be equipped with something that's readily avialable to anyone.
I think, forcing things to be online just causes more fuss than it creates opportunities. But that's not my decision.
What I'm trying to say is: They have to come up with fluff that does not try to give a technical explanation for things being online. You can never plausibly justify that for all things you want online. So forget about seeking a technically plausible justification for the need to be online. Just say "The Sixth World is an evil place, an the powers that be want it that way." Which leaves plenty of room for rules for characters to get their wares offline, a whole new black market for offline ware (and accompaning source books) and so on. And they would never have to worry about scrapping that online-requirement, because they never brought up a technical pseudo-necessity they would have to change. They could just say "Customer protesting has forced the Corps to produce offline ware again."

The very nature of having to write a game explanation that doesn't make any sense because you created a set of rules that require it could very well be a perfect example of doing something "in a bad way", lol.

In a game world where people are routinely shooting guns at eachother, why would Hackers not turn your cybernetic heart all the way off? Seems like it makes life so much easier for them. Writing in a game rule to prevent them from doing that based on some kind of ludicrous artificial restriction highlights just how ridiculously, near-brain-death level stupid it is to have wireless functionality for critical life sustaining systems when your world is controlled by people who can hack computers at lightning speed with their fucking brains.


His problem wasn't with the idea of a GM having to make judgment calls. It was for putting a GM in the position where he has to, where a perfectly good game wouldn't need one, had it been written properly. Or at least in this case, written intelligently, and then the feedback of its playtesters been taken into account. Or, even better, in the case where you had a game mechanic in place for several years, and players told you it was fucking awful, so you just came back and made it +1.

Really, the idea that the Hacker needed something to do in combat kinda highlights the fact that Shadowrun died years ago, and has been replaced by some vaguely familiar looking facsimile. It's like it's become the Asylum Films version of itself. Starring Eddie Furlong and Geri Halliwell.

Because their is a major differance between the too?

Once my laptop hat malware and would freeze upon starting, could still start it in the secure setting.
Even if I can't start it at all, I may use the laptop to smack you. Do not need anything for that.
Hardwiring some core elements of your stuff, so it can't be hacked is thinkable and sometimes usefull. This does not mean you can do it with everything.

And I am not going into defend any special situation you might make up now, because well the chances are you do not own a rulebook and your made up stuff would just not apply.
I mean half of the "problems" which came up in this thread DO NOT REALLY EXIST.

I am saying in general:
Save shutdown of ware is not that hard to believe.
The general possibility to mess with highly advanced technological equipment is not that hard to believe.
And last: The fact that there might be a benefit for equipment doing an data exchange with a third entity is also not that hard to belive.

Thats as far as anybody could go not beeing able to read the specific rules. You and a lot of other people make shit up as they go along.
"They can kill you with it"... No they can't..."And what is if they hack your arm"... "Arms do not have the option to be hacked"...
Really you guys could have written the hysteria Shadowtalk about technomancers last edition...


That exactly that. You do not have the books, so please, please, please stop making assumptions and then attack the guy who wrote the rule on the basis of this assumption alone.
Man, this thread is like a monty python movie.

Thing is; it is hard to affect something remotely if you can never connect to it in the first place. There is absolutely no rational reason that most of your Internal Cyberware needs that online connection except for the reasons provided by Mr. Hardy and company. Specifically, because they wanted something for the Hacker to do in combat.

At least in SR4 the reaction enhancers replaced your spinals - switch them of and you are completely disabled (well, you can still breath ...). Otherwise cybernetic replacements like heart, liver etc. Headware in your head (according to the forum a destroyed headware spits out sparks etc, which would not be good when it happens inside the brain).

SYL

Uwe Boll.
Monty Python is funny, at least and doesn't make me want to punch people.

Again: This is an opinon you voice without having even half of the facts. Why should for example the Encephalon not profit from beeing hooked up to a some additional processing power or a database?
And thats assuming the matrix works like the internet does. And thats a flawed assumption anyhow, because the matrix is much more...

@Kruger

Can you make a laptop explode if you hack it? Only if the desing is flawed. There are always limits on what you can do even if you might have "full access".