Can we please stop making Monopoly rules and create rules based on the sixth world?

Thank you.

SYL

Okay, this one gets an A for effort. I can sorta buy that it's a simple action to do it "at the speed of thought" and the free action is based on using a dynamic prediction algorithm that relies on having massive amounts of metadata about your surroundings.

I am curious to know if this is the "official" explanation as well, but at least this takes if from wallbanger to fridge logic.

As cynical as this outlook might be, the problem now is: If the "official" explaination will look like that, we'll never know if it has been taken from here ...

There is a really good reason that the Google chrome laptop is selling like shit... it's a crippled piece of crap that is useless without an Internet connection.

Check out all the various PC magazines, and they'll pretty much say the same thing: Over priced, and crippled functionality.

And your example of what your computer can do while offline... well I can play games, watch videos, listen to music, write a story, and balance a checkbook. Yes I can't get on to Dumpshock and argue with people who like crippled hardware (reason why Microsoft backtracked so fast on their DRM that their heads are STILL spinning!).


*EDIT*
That's a good point: why was their such an outcry about the XBox One having to have an always on connection... The people who want to play games may not WANT to be online! They expect their hardware to work no matter what is going on with their ISP! Sure without an internet connection you can't play multiplayer, but you know what: Your XBox One should STILL WORK!

But I see one weak spot in the example here, if you were to enter a wifi dead zone you would not have access to any files with this sort of a system as its all stored online.

I do like the idea of the online system and backup storage, but I would want some offline storage as well for tooling around with in a pinch so in my mind the laptop put a little too much into the online side of things.

A balance has to be maintained, but we would hope the future devices would take that into account already or maybe they already do.

The point wasn't whether or not it was good - it was that it exists. The corporations are fully capable of doing this kind of thing - what with the Matrix being ubiquitous and such an integrated part of life. (Hell, if you're not connected to AR, there's a lot you simply can't do once you leave the slums).

This, to me, is a logical 'next step' for matrix integration into the public life. People below a certain level of lifestyle are considered not worth considering, so they're not the target audience.

I'm glad I won't be buying SR5

Admittingly a bit late to be quoting the original post, but anyway...



Nice to hear that it will not be something that can be done at the drop of a hat.




Fair enough that you believe that combat hackers should get something more to do during combat. That's a personal preference you of course is entitled to. Personally I've never missed stuff for hackers to do during combat. But again. It's a personal perspective and preference which is hard to really debate meaningfully.

Fair enough you believe it is cool, but let's agree that this is a subjective assessment based on your personal preferences. For a movie I'm OK with it, but in terms of an RPG I'm somewhat more iffy about it. Not because I can't see some valid arguments in favour of allowing some types of cyberware to be hackable, and inserting an inputloop or false input feed into someone's cybersenses probably isn't all that different to casting an illusion spell. But depending on the kind of cyberware and it's intended customergroup, it simply doesn't make all that much sense. At least no based on what I'd considder to be beleavable realworld logic. And based on this being a game, I've never been very fond of "save-or-die/suck" type attacks.




Yes, cyberware could also be hacked in 4th ed. It was, however, avoidable. If the player understood the rules and cared to make the arrangements for it, you could make most of your cyberware effectively unhackable, short of attaining a hardwire connection to it. Yes, from a game perspective, this does/did mean that you could effectively prevent the hacker from disabeling your cyberware during combat. But frankly, in terms of real world modern logic, having critical systems, especially professional level combat related systems, be as readily hackable as everything wireless is under 4(a) rules, is simply suicidaly idiotic! One thing is having your gun expell it's magazine or engage the safety (though that can be quite lethal enough during a firefight!), but another thing is to suddenly become deaf, blind, and paralyzed. And yes, I have understood that you can't get that effect in 5th ed., but frankly this makes even less sense (from a simulationist perspective) than having someone being able to shut down a military level tech mechanical limb or part of someone's brain or nervous system from across the room in the first place.
The hacking rules in 4(a) often meant that in terms of hacking stuff during combat, there were, quite frankly, more effective ways to spend your actions, and thus, at my tables, I've NEVER EVER seen as much as a single piece of cyberware be hacked during combat. Judging from the rumours about 5th ed., however, hacking is becoming easier to handle in 5th ed., and I'd imagine that this is also the reason that apparently only the "augmentation bonusses" can be "bricked", leaving the character functioning, but a non-augmented levels.




I'm sorry Neurosis, but this particular argument always leaves me bristling, because to me it means that you are either stupid, missing the point of the argument(s) you refer to here, or you simply don't want to bother with a serious argument against it.
This point is a matter of your preference of game mechanics and balance, and the simulationist nod to believability and the concept of "willing suspension of disbelief". One thing is that I'm willing to conceed that if you have something that for some reason requires constant software updates, allowing it to connect wirelessly online is far simpler than having to undergo surgery in order to let your body be hooked up to a large computer via a variety of cables. However...First of all, why the bloody hell would you even need constant updates to your cyberware, if the damned thing already works as intended when it is installed!? I don't recall the Commodore 64 or any other computerlike device from before the age of the internet, ever requiring you to take it down to the supplier for regular updating of the software and operating system. Hopefully you get my point here. Why the hell should cyberware require regular software updates!? Unless it's because it doesn't function well enough when it is installed. Why should your arm, leg or penile implant even require matrix connection? In our world, the primary reason for regular software updates is the fixing of holes that a hacker can exploit in order to screw up your system, or gain access to your data. Once in a while you get an actual fix of a discovered problem, but most of the time the updates are related to the ability to safely use the system to connect to the internet. Remove that requirement, and you can remove 99+% of the need for software updates IMO.
The other part of the "realism" argument, is related to the difference in equipment for public use vs. military use. We might not know how the software and the computer will function 70+ years in the future, but we can probably assume that there will still be higher requirements for something made for use by the military, than for something similar intended for use by civilians in everyday conditions. In a world like Shadowrun, where encryption is only a very temporary delay for a competent hacker with some professional equipment, from a military perspective, you simply can't allow yourself to use wireless technology on anything (mission)critical. And I'm sorry, but your soldiers are pretty damned critical to insuring mission success (even it they are expendable), so allowing them to be equipped with anything that can be shut down in less than a minute, is simply idiotic, and can probably most aptly be compared with sending your soldiers into combat without any form of armour, or with muskets and swords on a modern battlefield.
I'm willing to accept that some low end cyberware should/can be hackable, but anything approaching military or professional security level tech simply shouldn't be so. I'll grant that this is exclusively of importance to people like me who put more importance on the fluff aspect of the game, than I put on the game mechanics and balance aspects, but to guys like me, this stuff is important aspects of the game.
And just for the record. The game might have "elves dragons wizards vampires bug spirits and shape-changing fox people", but that being said, as a player, I'm still expecting people without the ability to fly to fall to their death, if they step off of the top of a 100 floor skyscraper, and I still expect someone standing near the explosion of a Fireball to feel a blast of heat, even if they are outside of the immediate damage zone etc. I'm willing to make consessions to ensure that the game is playable, but generally speaking I expect to be able to apply fairly extensive degrees of real world logic and at least basic levels of real world physics to the game, and have the game reflect this to a resonable degree.




Again, realistically speaking, this interpretation is just that. Your interpretation of the setting, based on the published material. I pretty much agree with you though.
The Corps are in this for the money, and the individual consumer doesn't matter all that much. But they are still in this to make money. And if they want to sell this stuff to professionals and customers in general, they have to provide something that actually works. This means that the intended functionality is required to work. A cyberlimb has to function pretty much as well as a regular limb, and it has to do this immediately after being implanted and set up for the customer. If the customer's new cyberhand isn't able to move it's fingers, or if the cyberarm tries to strangle the owner every time someone makes a phonecall within 20 feet of it, said customers aren't going to be very happy, and stuff like that is bad for business. And again. The basic functionality shouldn't require any form of matrix connectivity in order to function. Afterall, would you really want a leg that siezed up every time you drove through an area with a bad wireless connection?




Yes, there are unquestioningly a lot of desperate individuals in the world of Shadowrun, and many of them might very well be willing to risk cancer and epilepsy etc. from their installations. But even in Shadowrun there really must be a limit to what people are willing to accept. One thing is getting cancer 10 years down the line, when your lifeexpectancy is 1-5 years. Another thing is willingly installing something in your body, in order to become better at something, only to have it be shut down half the time, every time you actually have to use it for what you bought it for. Imagine buying a super quality chef's knife for use in your kitchen, only to have it turn into an old dull and rusty butterknife half the time you went into the kitchen to cut something with it. Would you REALLY buy this knife, if it additionally came with a pricetag equal to the better part of a year or more worth of paychecks?




Admittingly a statement that is based solely on a personal preference, but frankly, so were a couple of your counter arguments. Not that it makes either argument less valid in a question of preferences for the game.


/Kyrel

This is kinda of chicken or the egg questions, but how did the Six World get to Cloud only?

I can see corps agreeing to change the Matrix to make it more secure.
The matrix is the life blood for business in the Sixth World and the only way to make things safer for you is to make them safer for everyone.

But after two or three Matrix Crashes, if a Corp tried to roll out universal Matrix Connected only\Cloud cyberware and gear they would be laughed off the Market.
Or more likely someone would wait until they rolled it out and then exposed all the security vulnerabilities it had in the most spectacular way possible.
And then roll out their own line of cyberware and gear that doesn't need to be connected to the Matrix all the time and laugh as they gobbled up market share while the other Corp's stock went through the floor.
After all there could always be another Crash and there are plenty of places where Matrix is still not a sure thing.

The other side to this is that in the Sixth World there is NO Microsoft level corp.
It is a Corp eat Corp world and currently where no one has the monopoly to try some thing like what Microsoft tried with the new Xbox.
And Microsoft failed miserable when they tried.

My point is none of the AAA Corps have the market share to pull some thing like this off alone and none of them would trust the others not to pull a double cross to form some grand alliance.
Plus if they are working to make the Matrix more secure, why make every thing vulnerable to decking if it doesn't have to be?

In short, the newest iteration of decking was invented in response to the Matrix security changes. Not the other way around.

So you are saying that the the unintended consequence of the "Secure" Matrix technology has been to force the development of new decking hardware.
Hardware that was such a leap forward that they can now gain access to most cyberware and electronics wirelessly.

Including the previous generation of cyberware and electronics despite not using the new Matrix technology.

So the script kiddies are dead in the water unless they get themselves a deck, but the professional hackers are able to get any where with a hot deck (at least via wireless).

OMG, the new DECKs are like Technomancers.
They can get anywhere using wireless.
And Technomancers have been disappearing.

Has anyone looked in side the case of these new Decks?

My problem is why would a lot of this cyberware connect to the net?
Why would your cybereyes need net access? They didn't before. I have not seen any benefit that would require net access. same for most cyberware.
The only cyberware that would need to connect to the matrix would be cyberware designed to connect to the matrix for communicating with the matrix. Which is what batou used to hack the cyber brain to hack the feed from the cyber eyes. Which I would be fine with happening in shadowrun. i am not ok with being able to hack a cyberarm through its matrix access. Why does a cyber arms need matrix access?

I can kind of buy it except 2 things.

1. If I had some for of DNI, link to the stun baton why isn't that a free action? On a safe not me clicking a button to make it extend should be a free action, unlike pulling a trigger there is no trying to hit a target involved, it’s a twitch and the button is pressed.
2. How am I making it go the speed of thought if I'm not in VR. It requires it be hooked up to the matrix, not that I be in VR. So I can have a mage, with his wireless hooking it up to the matrix, without a trode rig or other method of VR and I can think it on.

If a corp tries something, that's one thing. If the Big Ten decide something, that's an entirely different matter - any corp that tried to go against that would be destroyed, one way or another. It's not capitalism anymore.

Also, it's important to note that so far as the setting is concerned (or so I understand), the offline functioning is exactly the same as it always was. So The Corps have decided that in order to get people online (something that suits their interests of being able to monitor people for various purposes) they're going to create some functionality that only works when you're connected to the broader Matrix - and the fundamentals of it all are presumably part of the new Matrix from day one. However, going to the concern about a constant fingerprint, it is ALSO in the interest of The Corps that their black teams (and deniable assets) be able to operate at peak capacity and not get caught, so they may have built the distributed computing protocols along a path that allows anonymity. Such is the contradictory nature of megacorporate interests.

Oh no, my precious SR5 royalties...oh wait...we don't get those. *shrug* : P

Seriously, please do not mistake for a catalyst employee/sales rep/line-dev. I am a freelancer. I wrote a tiny chunk of the book. I wrote thousand words of emails arguing with people for every one word of game text I have that actually appears in the copy of SR5 you say you won't be buying. Basically, my contribution to SR5 was arguing against a great deal of what's in there at various points, losing 100% of those arguments, and going "ok, you guys have been at this a lot longer than me, you make the call"...which was basically all I could say anyway because again...I have no decision-making authority. At all. So I don't know...if my attitude towards potential customers....is a phrase that even makes sense. They are not my potential customers. And my attitude is completely tangential to the customer-relationship: my attitude is that I am...

A) A guy who likes hacking cyberware as a general CONCEPT.
B) YELLING

That's about it. Buying SR5 or not...doesn't even enter into it. Because if you were playing SR3E or GURPS or w/e...I'd say that cyberware should be goddamn hackable in that, too. I'd bust into your living room like the Kool Aid man and say it!

I don't know what my attitude was, by the way, besides that hacking cyberware is fucking awesome (yup) and anyone who disagrees is a silly poo poo head. Which is obviously SRS BSNS.

Disclaimer: Sure as hell have not read entire thread. Was just hotlinked directly to this post, so read only this.

I have heard that GURPS is really silly. I have never played it.



Painfully obvious statement is painfully obvious. No shit it's just my interpretation. Did anyone ever say it wasn't?

The entire post is just my personal opinion, a disclaimer that is entirely unnecessary because I AM A GUY WHO IS SAYING STUFF. And whenever someone says stuff, it's just their opinion. That is how BEING A DUDE AND SAYING STUFF works. : P

Conflating my opinion with Catalyst's opinion is like saying that a runner's opinion is some kind of official statement from Ares because they did a little work for Ares. I am a freelance wordslinger, that's all. Every damn post and statement I make is just my own, highly subjective personal opinion, forever and ever, and is never meant to be anything more than that. Well, I guess except for this one: my opinion is never meant to constitute anything more than that.



Keen observation. Did you notice that my user portrait is also a dragon?



How many points is each one worth, since you're keeping track? (In all seriousness, I don't think I actually used True Scotsman, but I could be wrong!)



NO, it isn't, that's a transparently false equivalency. To start with, before I can even begin analyzing everything wrong with this analogy...who exactly is doing the hitting the fighter with Mind Control spells and the mage with disintegrate in your example? Who is the "actor" in this sentence?

FOR STARTERS, HACKING CYBERWARE CANNOT EVER MAKE SOMEONE DISINTEGRATE OR ATTACK THEIR TEAM MATES. You know what can do both of those things in MagicRun? Magic.

Edit: I am pleased to see that nineteen of you have begun your exodus from the internet. Farewell, my friends! May we meet again at the clearing at the end of the path! : )

The nine of you who have so far answered correctly, send me a PM and I'll fedex you a cookie. Or a free RPG.

Ok, let's get down inta the really nitty gritty.

(A) The items LITERALLY don't need to be connected. You can disconnect them. It is a simple action. You might lose some minor bonus. YOU WILL LIVE. If you value security over power, then you can make that meaningful choice, rather than just "set hacking to nah". Or you can man up, live dangerously, and say "hackers can TRY, son, I want my +2 dice". That ding you hear means that Shadowrun has gained a level in game design!

(B) You want an in-depth example of how, in actual play, offense and defense hacking works? Ok, here goes. To start with, you don't need a hacker to protect your shit from hackers. All you need is a good commlink and to slave all your shits to it. And the good news is...they cheap!

Let me expand on that...substantially:

A exceptionally skilled really really good leet haxorman might have around 12 dice. Logic 6 (maybe) plus Cybercombat 6 (maybe)... or maybe Logic 5 and Cybercombat 5 and hack on the fly; you get the idea. I had an item in there that gave dice pool bonuses to hackers, but I think it did not make final cut, sadly. So with max skill and max attribute; this will probably be limited by a limit of 3, 4, 5, or 6 (depending on A. how much of your character you decided to sink into a blindingly expensive cyberdeck and B. how you prioritize Attack/Sleaze/Firewall/Data Processing, if you are Mr. Leet Haxorman).

The most efficient offensive Matrix action for use in combat is Data Spike. It deals damage directly to a wireless device. It does not require a turn to set up. THIS IS A GOOD THING.

So for a data spike, a leet haxor would roll 12 Dice [Limit 3-6] versus the target's Intuition + Firewall (i.e. Device Rating) [No Limit].

Now, I don't know what your Intuition is, and I can't comment; hopefully it's pretty good, since you also use it for such things as PERCEPTION TESTS, DODGING BULLETES (I mean bullets!), and GOING FIRST IN COMBAT. If it's not at least 4, I bet that defending against 'ware hacking is the least of your problems. You have probably been failed to see a ninja, lost initiative, and been shot in the face before anyone even tries to hack your toaster. : P

Basic (standard grade) cyberware is Device Rating 2, and has Firewall 2, and that's not so hot. BUT, you (you being everyone) can totally buy a Transys Avalon Commlink (DR 6), and you totally should (it costs 5,000 Nuyen, which compared to a cyberdeck with the same Device Rating (the Fairlight Excalibur, which costs 823,250 Nuyen, is basically nothing) and you (you being everyone) can totally slave every piece of cyberware on your body to the Transys Avalon (and you totally should; it has 18 Slave slots). Once your 'ware is slaved, all attacks against your cyberware use the Commlink's Firewall, which is 6. Congratulations, you're halfway to beating the best available starting hacker 50% of the time. It cost you 5,000 Nuyen. Lolz.

So it's leet haxor's 12 Dice [Limit 3-6] versus your [non-limited] Intuition + Firewall (i.e. 6, because you're a smart guy, and you got a Transys Avalon and slaved all your shit to it). If Leet Haxor wins, you're looking at [Deck Attack Attribute] damage to that matrix device...which again, is between 3 and 6...plus net successes. Which you then get to resist...with 12 Dice, because of your trusty "hacker's worst enemy" Transys Avalon which you picked up for the low low price of 5,000 Nuyen, since soak pool equals Device Rating (6) plus Firewall (Also 6).

So generally the worst case scenario is roughly equivalent to, in 4th Edition, someone throwing a moderate-to-decent force indirect combat spell...at your cyberware (one piece of it). A crappy indirect combat spell, with no AP value. If your cyberware gets bricked (its condition monitor fills) it...stops working. Until you reboot it. Which takes...a complex action.

Isn't this all terribly reductivist? Sure is! Isn't it possible for these dice pools to vary wildly? Sure is. But generally speaking...that is what a moderately powerful Matrix Attack (on cyberware) and a reasonably easily available Matrix defense looks like!

So the worst case scenario is that after two or three entire complex actions spent hurling data spikes at you...complex actions that could have been spent subverting you free will with a mind control spell, disintegrating you with a turn to goo spell, straight blowing you up with a lightning bolt spell, or just shooting you in the face with an automatic rifle....a hacker who has won all their rolls (and who you haven't MURDERED yet) makes it so you don't have your wired reflexes for maybe two or three turns. IF YOU EVEN HAD IT ON WIRELESS MODE in the first place.

CYBERWARE HACKING: IT'S THE END OF THE WARLLLLLLLLLLLLD!

Edit:
And that is why I think comparing having your cyberware hacked to "you get one saving throw, make it or you instantly DIE" spells in D&D is completely, laughably ludicrous. (Don't worry, I know that wasn't you. By the way, the reason I don't bother labeling my quotes (which I know annoys some people) is that I don't like attacking people; I prefer to keep things anonymous and attack ideas.)

Hey Neurosis,
thanks for the ingame example! I'm sure it clarified a lot of misunderstanding, particularly for those of us who don't own the book yet. Also, repairing bricked ware takes only a complex action? With no tests involved? Some of the forum posters had me thinking that it destroyed 'ware for good.

BTW, I want my cookie!

Damm i really hoipe you never ever get to do anything with SR ever again, your attitude isn't appreciated.

Wasn´t it one of the authors who confirmed in one of the dozen of pages of discussion that bricked means destroyed?

Edit1:
Ah, here:


So what is it now? Tookkiit + Hardware check + 1h per box or simple reboot?

Edit2: it was not one of the authors but a buyer of the SR5 Origin version.

SYL

Devon, this calls your advice into question. Maybe if somebody could just post the damn bricking rules, we'd at least be clear on how it works, what it's consequences are, and whether your cyberware explodes into sparks or not.

Also, you maybe should consider how your behavior, attitude and proneness to insult and flame anyone you talk to reflects on CGL. Or at least, maybe Jason should.

You mean the choice between having your cyberware and gear perform worse than it has in any previous edition, or announcing your presence to any corpsec team monitoring local matrix activity for device IDs not registered on the company asset list? I must disagree in the strongest possible terms with any assertion that such a loaded choice is 'meaningful'. The possibility of being hacked does not even enter into the decision.

Seriously, what shadowrunner team would take along someone whose gear squawked its presence to the public matrix? These people have taken the time to erase their past, fabricate forged SINs, acquire unregistered military grade weaponry and armour, but haven't found a way to stop their cyberware from doing the 2070 equivalent of checking in on foursquare?

Firmware upgrades? As if your gear is licensed in the first place. Any upgrades would be from the same black market you bought your gear from.

Unless the shadowrunners are actually trying to qualify for a Darwin Award, they will illegally modify their gear to not require their PAN to be connected to the matrix to function at 'wireless bonus' level, the same way people modify game consoles to get past copy protection.

This is not an 'advanced option'. It's a basic must-have, do-not-start-a-game-without-this-ability rule.

Did you get the note about personal attacks, Mäx? If you do not appreciate the attitude here, that's one thing (and I can certainly understand where you are coming from), but that is no reason to post something like this!

Bye
Thanee

I'm curious: Do you have SR5O? Have you looked at the rules for detection, running silent, identifying out-of-place traffic, and so on and so forth? Because while that's hypothetically a possible way it could work, it certainly doesn't seem like a likely one.

@Neurosis:

You obviously feel rather strong about this topic, which isn't much of a surprise considering your involvement in the SR5 project.

However, your "attitude" as Mäx put it (and others who have reported your posts) is not very helpful for a discussion (as opposed to a flame war).

The SR5 topics in general easily generate heat, and while I can see the explanatory nature of your posts, the way you present them is flamebait extraordinaire.

Freelancer or not, right or not, you will be judged by the same standards as everyone else on these boards. And if you continue down this path, you will have a number of warnings and eventually a suspension heading your way!

I'm pretty sure you are capable of presenting your point of view in a way, that does not incite aggressive posting behaviour.

Bye
Thanee

No, just the end of sanity. Even if you needed to roll 20 6s in a row to retract an opponents baton, the idea of the wireless baton would remain dumb beyond reclaim.

Is what happens in the video cool?
Yes. But so is Godzilla, and so are mechs. But I don't want to see them in Shadowrun. The real question is "is what happens in the video something you want to see in Shadowrun?"

Is what happens in the video something you want to see in Shadowrun?
This is highly subjective, but I'd say "why not?". The scene in the video is interesting, and it can be fun to be able to pull things like this in SR.

But it's a scene from a non interactive story, where the rule of cool can apply and where the scenarist does exactly what he wants. And even then, the audience can sometimes wonder why they don't use that trick again in other situations where it could solve problems easily. But in that case, an easy answer is "it's just not possible in that case for some reason or they'd have used it."

Having something similar in a RPG is more complicated: you need to have rules to cover exactly what can be hacked and how. You have to explain why in some cases it's possible and why in other it's not.

Hackable cyberware allows PC to do what's in the video. It also allows NPC to do it. It also allows PC and NPC to do similar things in many situations. It can be cool sometimes, but it can get frustrating at other times. So the real question is, can it be done correctly?

Can it be done correctly?

Rulewise, yes. There are spells that can make illusions, that can even control the body or emotions of the victim. Assuming these are correctly done (we'll assume this since all SR editions had them), cyberware hacking could work by following similar rules.

Fluffwise, it's something else. Cyberware hacking can be detrimental to a PC. So players will always try to find workarounds and solutions to not get hacked. There are two things most players will ask their GM when told that cyberware is hackable:
1. How would someone be able to make my dermal plating less useful by hacking it?
2. Can't I just prevent the hacker from connecting to my implant?

You can say "future tech" but that will be frustrating to many players, especially since it would be a bad use of the "future tech" explanation. To use that explanation you need at least some vague semblance of a technological basis. But with a good explanation, this can work. The question is: has it been done correctly?

Has it been done correctly?

It looks like the explanation that has been chosen is "implants need to access the cloud to work optimally". While it fully answers question 2, it doesn't fully answer question 1.

To correctly answer question 1, you need to take into account the fact that there will be three kinds of implants:
1. Implants that just don't benefit from any external communication: dermal plating is the most obvious example
2. Implants that can benefit from external communications but that can do without one (a Math SPU can benefit from cloud computing, but it can also rely on a powerful embedded chip, cybereyes can benefit from external I/O (for example for a tacnet) but can work well without it)
3. Implants that need to have an external communication (implanted commlink)

The idea that corps will enable external communications everywhere ala X-Box One is ok for consumer grade 'ware, but it makes absolutely no sense for military-grade ware and DIY ware or custom/modded ware.

I can't anwser the question, because I haven't read SR5 now, so I'll leave the final question open

Does the SR5 system correctly handle this?

Mechs are. Even without Rigger 4, I was able to turn a tank into a Walker, and load it up with weaponry. Voila! Mech. And the players were fine with it. Godzilla's not much of a stretch either, actually... you just need to have a Komodo Dragon awaken with flaming breath.

Know what else is cool?

Teleportation and Time Travel.

The first was done by a certain Mary Sue... ehm Immortal Elf.

No, he just planeswalked. Also, Draco, you forgot Ressurrection and FTL travel.

Neurosis. Try reading what I wrote again, and then take a look at your own post and it's elected formulations. For instance this one:

"Megacorporations don't give a SHIT about the safety and security of their customers. You'll buy it because it's like the last one, only better. Then when shit does get hacks'd, they'll spin things to make them look like big damn heroes for trying to catch the hackers/closing the loophole."

For the record, I did not accuse you of voicing anything but your own oppinions. My appologies if it came across like that, it was not the intention. The section I quote, however, can IMO be interpreted as if you believe you are stating indisputable fact in that particular text section. The main reason for my comment here was to point out that while you were correctly commenting on people bitching about stuff they hadn't seen yet, you were at the same time apparently doing the same thing.

And again for the record, I agree with you that most of the stuff we do when we debate on the net, is voicing our personal oppinions. In some situations, however, it is quite useful to be rather particular about which parts of what one is saying is reflecting actual facts, and which parts are based on personal oppinions and interpretations. Hopefully you understand my point with this.


/Kyrel

Teleportation and FTL are largely indistinguishable at sub-solar scales.

(Heck, even 0.2c and teleportation are indistinguishable at planetary-surface distances: 600,000 meters in 0.1 seconds is fast enough to circumnavigate the earth in 6.6).

I would like to reiterate that most of the folks complaining about wireless bonuses are NOT against the whole idea of placing yourself in a position to get hacked in return for extra benefits.

It's just that a huge percentage of those benefits as listed are nonsensical and silly.

There is potential in the idea, the execution is just terribly flawed.



-k

QFT.
Again, someone who gets it.

+1.

Text on Bricked.

"If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries
are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed
up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all
devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword
is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground
on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an
assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just
fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly
brick a katana, ne? And don’t panic when your trickedout
combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again … if you
know a competent technician."

No Cyberware example. You can take this as freedom to interpret the results as you wish. Which I always prefer, let's me have more fun. Maybe el cheapo used cyber is useless, or maybe el cheapo used cyber is great because it old school and has default security functionality.

However the freedom to choose is a big responsibility.

As a side note, as you move your cyber ware grade up, it's default Rating goes up so it's harder to brick. So there is value to upgrading your cyberware.

A little bit above there were rules mentioned on how to repair (logic + hardware, 1h per damage box). Later another author said that it was a simple reboot?

Can you perhaps check on that on how to reactive/repair a bricked item? That would be most helpful?

SYL

And if they introduced teleportation at some point, I wouldn't even blink. Time travel, I might raise an eyebrow about and let them try to explain it before passing judgement, but magic-based teleportation? Hell, I wrote up that spell in 1st Edition. Converted a bunch of D&D spells over (blade barrier's still my favourite), so whatever.

Thanks. That leaves a lot more wiggle room than what was previously tossed around - you could even say the firmware is messed with with cyberware, which makes speed-repairing stuff at least more plausible than if it is "fused or gummed up with melted internals".


Ah, so Device Rating still is tied to Cyber rating. I previously got that cyberware is R2 as the new default. What are essence costs like now, btw, compared to SR4 (especially in regard of the halve the lower value rule gone for bioware/cyberware)?

But going by the examples (particularly the last one about the bike) at least the various gaming groups I know would most definitely expect cyberware to be "bricked" in a way that does not merely remove the matrix bonuses or the base functionality, but makes the implant in question "dead weight" (as the "brick" metaphor implies) until someone spends some time (definitely more than just a complex action for "reboot") on it.

So "bricked" wired reflexes (which replace part of your nervous system) would be expected to leave you partially or fully paralysed ... same for cyberlimbs ... etc.
Bricked chemseal? Either it won't open or - worse - it just opens can't be closed again while you're still within a toxic area.

Sure, seems like we know similar kinds of people there (I think that 'reboot' thing was Devon being wrong, until someone produces a rule that says otherwise). But it leaves wiggle room, so you can interpret that differently, too. I got that the description said bricked devices generally spark, sizzle, melt and/or explode, from previous comments. That sounds a bit different now. Whether the cyberware performs it's basic functions still or is dead weight is another matter, but it is not exploding inside your body (pretty nasty with headware I imagine).


Personally, if I were to adopt SR5, I would go with drained batteries and/or firmware damage, and yes, a bricked cyberarm would not be useful at all. bricked wired might give you "taser damage" or something like that as a houserule, but until I have the full rules all this is speculation.


To be fair, according to how most rules on gasses and chemicals worked until now, a complex action to close it is not the end of the world. Beats having it bricked and not closing or opening when you need it (the closest example is the lock in the rules, I guess).

Basic cyberware: Rating 2
Alphaware: Rating 3
Betaware: Rating 4
Deltaware: Rating 5

@Tashiro
The point is not, that teleporation is so "IMBA" in general. It is like any superpower, it matters when you get it and under which circumstances.

Beeing able to turn yourself invisible is a great feat if you learn it at the age of 14, won't do you much good if you have a steady job at the age of 56.
Beeing able to jump to a metaplane where time goes 10.000 times faster (so beeing gone for an hour would only be a bit more than 1/3 second), also great at the age of 14 to so much use if you are a factoryworker.

Same thing with teleportation. A nice logistic spell if you are a mage whoe rides openly with a band of friends through the forgotten realms and a nice tool to escape.
The ultimate "I WIN" button if you need to smuggle small stuff, like a datachip.
It is not your tool to retreat in order not to be killed, it is your plan to begin with.

Timetravel can be a nice touch if you tend to have some rules. Mind only (so you can only send your mind back to an event in the past and you relife it from there on). It has to cost Karma and you can't travel further than to a point you already traveld backwards and maybe some time depending on how far you go back). It should have a long cooldown and hard tests. It would basically function as a savegame.

That's not an excpetionnally skilled hacker, that's a beginner or a character with secondary hacking skills. A good hacker has between 14-20 dice at Chargen (and a bit higher as soon as the karma flows in) depending on the action.
There's programs (exploit gives +2 dice to hack on the fly actions), there's skills specializations, there's bioware and exceptional skills/attributes...

After having created a few test characters in SR5, I can tell you that the primary dice pool is often around 16-18 and can go higher in some situations.

Doing bad stuff to cyberware is 2-3 complex actions, sometimes less.

Of course a starting character specialist is generally going to outclass the average wageslave in the same field. So this is more an example of something that standard NPCs can try, but characters can do.

The opponent in the example was a street samurai with a maxed out commlink, not a pedestrian. And even though Deckers seem to get negative Mods, that still leaves the decker with the upperhand. Since that was a stated design goal (to make combat hacking viable and easy enough), it's as predictable as unsurprising.

So what happens if a powerful jammer goes active?

Can it knock the decker off line or does it just slow him down?

This is the crux of it.

Hacking cyberware is cool. It makes sense.

The matrix bonuses do not make sense.

Further, the game mechanics create a trap for players. Player characters should be savvy enough NOT to do this but from what I can tell there's nothing to suggest not employing these options. So the mechanic serves as a trap for the player. None of the Shadowrun books that I have read have ever really managed to identify what stuff is rules meant for NPCs and not PCs.

So if anyone has the time, just how hard would it be for a just hit the big leagues Decker to hack Deltaware cyberware (how long I guess).


Say a new decker with a few runs under their belt with 18 dice or so.
Assume the target is on the job doing legwork out on the streets and not about to run a Mitsuhama zero zone.

Given I have no idea how the rating is applies to SR5 decking.

Also are there any counter measures that a pro would have taken to make this harder other then just going offline?
How much time would they buy?