Nice.

Explain to me why cyberware would ever need access to the matrix to function? It didn't need it prewireless. I cannot come up with any reason why a cyber arm or cyber eyes or wired reflexes need net access. I can't think of any reason anyone would design them to need it. We have cyber limbs today that don't need the net to work. They even contain small computers to do their functions. Seeing as how computers are getting smaller and more powerful i don't see processing power as being the issue.

Wired_SR_AEGIS give me one plausible reason why cyber eyes need an always on matrix access. Give me one good reason why anyone in teir right mind would design it that way given that matrix access is not ubiquitous even in 2073

Your cyberware doesn't need access to the Matrix to function. Some cyberware systems function better when they are, though.

And yes, the underlying game system was changed so that some cyberware systems have a different effect by default. That happens sometimes when you change editions. Kind of like when BattleTech went to it's fourth edition: Hills that offered partial cover didn't suddenly shrink to a third their size, the rule merely went from +3/punch location to +1/ignore leg hits. Or damage in Torg 2.0. Or power dice in Descent.

Here's the deal.

The best example of the "wireless bonus" making sense is Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers. These are typically systems that don't play well together, and in their safe mode just don't. Combined with the limit of +4 Attribute from Cyberware, even considering combining them is kind of a fool's venture. But then the wireless bonus kicks in and not only makes them play together, but makes them ignore the +4 Attribute limit -- meaning Wired Reflexes 3 and Reaction Enhancers 3 gets you a net +6 Reaction and +3d6 Initiative.

To explain this, you could say that the systems don't work together unless they can maintain a wireless track of your entire body, or perhaps they need the extra processing power generated by forming their own little cloud network so each disparate part can contribute to the larger whole, and that network makes it vulnerable to threats through the Matrix (very locally) so you connect it through your commlink for the added safety.

The biggest offender is the Smartlink (and subsequently the Laser Sight), which I think got a little bit of a bum treatment. +2 Accuracy offline, +2 Accuracy +2 dice online, which is contrary to the "smartlink makes it easier for the less trained person to shoot" concept of classic Shadowrun. If I were designing it, I'd either flip them, or more likely (and potentially house ruled) such that the offline version gives +2 Accuracy +2 dice, and the online version gives +2 Accuracy +4 dice.

Then there are the lesser offenders: devices that you can either manually actuate (ie, deploy a tripod, extend a baton, close the chemical seals, etc) by either manipulating the device or flipping a switch somewhere, or actuate by sending a Matrix command via your DNI du jour. I'm thinking of this by the following: these devices aren't wired to you in any way, so the choice really is to do it with your hands or do it with a wireless signal via datajack/trodes->commlink->device. Let's face it, you're not physically wiring your extendable baton to your commlink, that's just daft. Meanwhile hacking someone's baton or tripod is equally daft, as that's a lot of work to go through to cause a fairly minor annoyance.

Then there's the Matrix sniffing devices: cybereyes, cyberears. Open these up to the Matrix and suddenly there's a lot of usable data to process -- maybe you can see the outline of someone's PAN or get an interpretive reading of changes in Matrix interference, or hear the disturbance of something physically moving through the local wireless signals and causing tiny aberrations in the signal. Very high-techy stuff.

Then there's the weird bits: gear that gives you a strange +dice bonus while online, like hydraulic jacks. I figure this as the equivalent of the old "AR Bonus" from SR4, where doing a task with the assistance of an AR interface grants you a bonus. Just this go around the device needs to access your AR feed, which is through your commlink.

Ummm they didn't have a problem working together in the 2050s when there was no wireless. explain that please. Explain how going to a remote server and back is going to be faster than traveling down the wire inside the body? Hint there is ABSOLUTELY no way it would be faster. Radio while traveling at the speed of light is still going to take longer than the slower connection of a couple of feet at most.

And sorry the cybereyes are not going to be better with matrix access. They are basically the same as they were before they supposedly had matrix access. And Why would you have them connecting via them selves instead of through your datajack and comlink? The way they have it set up is like pluging all your computers into the internet directly instead of going through a home router. and we all know how stupid it is to plug your computer directly into the internet.

I'm afraid you do not understand. Consider the following elements of the distributed computing argument:

1) Unlike modern cloud computing, there is no remote server. The distributed computing here takes advantage of the mesh structure of the Matrix as introduced in SR4 and the new protocols introduced (to which everything and everyone was converted to) after events seen in Storm Front to use available resources on nearby devices, such as everything within a kilometre.

2) The whole idea has absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with transmission speeds - except insofar as it is assumed to be fast enough not to be a bottleneck, which is justified by the Matrix presented in SR4.

And as I understand it, the WR/RE stacking thing has gone back and forth through the editions.

You obviously didn't read a single word.

Sounds workable, if a little powerful. Laser Sight would be +1Acc/+1d6, +1Acc/+2d6 then?


By legacy, they played very well together, which is why so many people have a problem with this.

Which is why hence forth they shall be referred to as Wireless Reflexes

That really hurts.

Because it may need a software patch. Or diagnostics. Or because the corporation which made the cyberware wants to be kept informed on how well it's working. Or the software for specific aspects of the cyberware is kept in corporate hands, and they don't release it to the public - meaning that to get it to work, it needs a connection. Or it can run on a lower (non-wireless) setting, then run on an augmented (requires more software, which is not installed) setting.

There's a half-dozen for you.

None of those are reasons why functionality or ease of use deteriorates when there's a lack of a connection.



Software does not make a baton extend faster. If it does, WTF is that software doing on the cloud? And why does the baton still extend (but slower) when I lack cloud access?

You're still not getting it, but that's no surprise since you've been adamantly refusing to understand this concept for a couple weeks now across several threads. Unless SR5 computing is literally working at faster than light speeds, both in transmission and processing, it doesn't matter. It still takes time to distribute the work to every device in the area, do the work, get it back, and correlate all the responses.

This should in no way be faster than sending a signal down an embedded wire.

Unless the wire runs on STL speeds and wireless communication runs on FTL.

At which point, wait, aren't the computers themselves made of STL wires? And if they're not, why aren't the embedded wires made out of the FTL stuff?

Manual control: You have to unlock the safety (prevent it from extending into your groin when you don't want it to), then physical trigger.

Wireless control: AR trigger, run by thought or by glancing at the proper HUD trigger and intoning a single word. This requires software. The software's not in the baton. Ergo, needs to be connected.

That software should be on my comlink, not the matrix.
Which means I should be able to have the wireless connectivity bonus without having to have internet access on my comlink. Getting the bonus without becoming more vulnerable to hackers (because 3m range!)

Because it does not need the Matrix, I will not give you a reason why it would need the Matrix. It does not need the Matrix. It may or may not operate on the Matrix. When it does so, there are benefits.



This seems correct intuitively, but it is not.

The hang up for many people, I think, is because the modern implementations that we're familiar with aren't implemented in a way that emphasizes distributed computing. So it's difficult to, aside from 'Lightspeed/Magic', put together reasons why this would make sense. We've certainly never seen it in real life. Perhaps with the exception of some research labs. Or academia. I get that. And I empathize.

Short of providing a math lesson, or blowing off the dust of old textbooks, I'm not sure how I can convince you except to say: When algorithms are written with sufficient order of magnitudes, even very tiny increases of 'n' will wreak havoc.

There exists a complexity, however, where both distributed computing solutions and localized computing solutions may finish within seconds of each other. The difference being that a local solution may take a full '3' seconds, while a distributed solution may take (even after considering latency) only a fraction of that. Such a target time for completion is still 'usable' from an end user perspective -- It's just one is near instantaneous in it's completion, and the other finishes inside a 'reasonable time frame'.

It is not impossible to imagine that the Matrix in SR 5 exists on top of such framework.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

"Extend Baton" is not of sufficient complexity.

And I'm not even going to point out that exploding ammunition reports back to the person who fired it the health status of the person it hit.

Funnily enough, it could be.

...it could also "not be", as well, mind you. There's no law that really defines it one way or another. It's all up to the underlying implementation to determine what is, and is not, "sufficient complexity".

So: You're wrong.

...except you also may be right. It really just depends. Does that make you feel better, worse, or indifferent about your understanding of complexity?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

And SR5 just went into quantum superposition.

Awesome.

/quit: logic, this topic has none

The problem is that for example wired reflexes and reaction enhancers did not need a matrix connection in 2050 because there was no wireless to connect to. So why would they need it 26 years later when there is a wireless? And why are the computers slower in 2076 than they were in 2050? As if the internal computers were able to handle things in 2050 they should be able to handle things better in 2076 and thus not need distributed computing. Your reasoning falls flat because all of this stuff worked when there was no wireless and now does not. This is stuff you would not get a benefit from distributed computing. Why does a baton need distributed computing to close literally 2 circuits? one is the safety the other is the extension solenoid. Why does it need software at all? a skinlink connection actuating 2 circuits does not need computing power. You can claim distributed computing all day long. It does not change the fact that all of this stuff worked fine with out distributed computing. None of the benefits are new ideas and none of the benefits are things that would benefit from distributed computing.

I'm not sure I follow you.

We could sit down, you and me, best buds forever, and write an algorithm that wouldn't get around to extending your baton until after the sun had long since cooled, and the galaxy had long since gone silent from the incessant clattering of humans.

If we can write arbitrarily complex algorithms today, what prevents us from doing so in 2070? Did we, like, lose our math technology as a result of OP Awakened Characters returning us all to nature, or something?



Before I answer that, do you understand what a Retcon is?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

You'd think, but the corporations have the right to keep any software they want private and controlled. And this way, if anything you have needs a patch, it is immediately patched, without you having to be online to download it, or having the right to refuse it. And this way, they can find out other information - where the most sales are, how often something's activated, where it's activated, etc.

Again: The original plan for the XBox One is a good parallel, only the majority of people in the Shadowrun'verse are probably more than happy with this (or just apathetic). Shadowrunners might complain, but they're not the majority market, and since they're SINless, they don't even get a say in the matter.

Could you possibly hack your stuff and make software to run it on your commlink? Sure. Would it be as good as corp code? Probably not. Can you get the corp code and run it on your commlink? Maybe, but that's a very dangerous, very pricey operation. And I'm sure this could be covered in the 'Unwired'-esque sourcebook when it comes out.

Writing arbitrarily complex algorithms to perform simple tasks is trivial.*

You're trying to tell me that this arbitrarily complex algorithm is still the most efficient.

*As a theoretical design challenge, I tried to build the slowest "clock" in Minecraft possible, using only a single chunk (16x16 grid, using only vanilla items). I found a 1-wide tilable flip-flop that could in theory fit 15 inside the 16x16 area (and still wired up in sequence). It was 5 blocks tall, allowing for 25 layers of them from bedrock to sky, making a massive binary counter. Remove a small area for a daylight sensor (flips state once every 10 minutes) and input that to the binary counter chain. The other end of the counter was then your clock.

The period delay on this clock was 7.69 * 10^113 minutes.
Or approximately 100,000,000 googol years. Essentially orders of magnitude greater than the lifespan of the universe.

If it's impossible to hack the firmware in cyberware to stop it from doing all this, why can deckers write software that subverts anything else in the Matrix?

And you trust the corps why?

Even if you trust a particular corp, why would you trust the cloud?

What is to keep a corp or a decker from uploading a virus or some thing worse?

At least if the code is on your comlink, you don't have to worry about someone installing a special "update" while you are in the middle of a run.

The thing is (and I'm on your side here), it doesn't need a retcon.
1) The Corporate Court upgrades the Matrix.
2) The Corporations over a few years phase out old technology, and begin bringing in connected technology.
3) Old technology is no longer supported, doesn't have the proper parts to repair, and falls to the wayside as new gear comes out.

Mind you, I'm certain some technology had matrix connections in SR4, but it was never really touched on. Seriously, if you look at the bells and whistles that are in our technology now, how the hell could it be avoided by 207X? I make it a point from time to time to ask the players what little gadgets are attached to their gear, things which won't help with shadowrunning, but makes their gear more tied to the companies that sell them, or have little extras which sets them apart from any other corp's products.

For example, one of my characters plays games on his commlink, and keeps a huge collection of classical music blended with a few other genres. I can easily see NONE of this actually being on his commlink, but instead being on the Matrix, and he accesses it when he wants to use it. Considering how the Matrix in 4E works, I see no reason why a commlink would have that much memory - it isn't needed. Sure, it might have some, but between 4E and 5E, I can see physical memory going the way of the dodo, since it's more limited than having 'nigh infinite' memory on the Matrix.

One of my other characters has clothing which manifests different styles and patterns in AR, and all the patterns are stored in the Matrix as well. No 'physical' memory required. Clothing that adjusts fit based on the weather reports - becoming more waterproof, or more aerated depending on what the Matrix says the local weather conditions are like.

I'm certainly not advocating the opinion of the person you have been asking this question, but I will try to give you an explaination:

For "REASONS" the corps decided when building Matrx 3.0 that instead of having just two curcuits to close or open with rather simple signals on a very low function level it would be better to implement a generalistic protocol where our baton uses somewhat limited computational power and some form of complex firmware that can deal with incoming signals to close and open said two circuits on a much higher and more abstracted function level. Now in order to be faster when being connected to the Matrix 3.0 in comparison to direct connection it is his firm belief that again for "REASONS" the used algorithms in said firmware have reached a complexity (in this case "useless bloat") that the locally availible computational power is just barely enough to interpret incomming signals and caculate the desired state within a time frame that equals a complex action, before successfully closing or opening the two circuits. His next assumption is, that while the local computational power is not high enough to allow a faster execution time - just for "REASONS" - it simultaniously is fast enough to offload the signal's calculational demands onto the Matrix, receive and authenticate the results ... thus handling the overall process faster than when trying to do the (still irrationally bloated) calculations itself.
The computational limitations are for "REASONS" intended, so while micro supercomputing exists (and quite obviously is used when having certain ammo types report their effects back to their user) it's simply not used because of these "REASONS".

So I don't have to hack her coat, I just hack the weather station and send out a report of a flash snow hurricane and let them go Parka Mode. (Please tell me they got the wireless hoodie option? pleasepleaseplease)

Efficient for what? Rapidly extending a Baton? Of course not. But that's really beside the point. Is bounds checking efficient?

There are a million things that are done that are not 'efficient', because 'efficiency' is only one of many considerations.

That's why I keep going back to implementation. No-one knows the specific requirements of the system designed, so arguing about how it should/should-not function is silly. It's like... totally missing the point. It functions however it was built to function, based on constraints and requirements that you and I can really only guess at.

In real life, when I evaluate System Architecture, I put a HUGE emphasis on reliability and authenticity of data. Is that 'efficient'? Absolutely not. It eats up a lot of overhead. Is it important? Aye, that's the rub. I tend to think so.



Hahahaha. I can appreciate that.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Because they don't give you a choice.



See above.



See above.



True. But the thing is, your typical person isn't going to go on shadowruns, and the majority of technology is geared to your typical person. The corporations aren't giving their clients a choice here. You take it, or you don't have any.

Consider: If Microsoft dug in their heels for the XBox One, and said 'you must be connected to the internet once every 24 hours, and the only games you can play aren't downloaded - we keep the software on our servers', then Sony said 'us too', and Nintendo said 'us three'... then what?

Some people would be fine with that - but a bunch would go back to the PS3, or XBox 360, or Wii. But then the three companies shut down the servers for those games, so you aren't connected to XBox Live, or to the PSNetwork. They say 'we're no longer supporting these, they're being phased out'.

So, you've got a choice. Don't play games... or go with the flow. And while some people might quit gaming, others will be fine with this, shell out the money, and keep gaming.

I can see the corps in Shadowrun doing exactly this. Sure, they might not like each other, but they do cooperate when it suits them, and ensuring that your choice is no choice at all? That's in their best interests. You play by the corp rules, or you don't play.

Cool.

I was just remarking on something that Aaron (and I believe others, throughout the weeks had touched on):



-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Shadowrunner might not be, but for a lot of this stuff majority market is militaries,police and security corps and they would never accept shit like that.

There is another alternative. Continue to use the games you have for the Xbox (what is a 360? ), PS or Wii. You do not need to connect to play the games you already have. And before you ask, no, none of my consoles connect to the internet (Matrix) for games. I use the disks that I have purchased. Hell, I still use the PS1 that I have (no PS2 or 3 for me... ).

So, using this analogy, My legacy ware should still function like it did before 2075. There is no NEED to upgrade.

The Wireless bonuses are a cool idea.

I could see wireless bonuses from extra processing power and extra data sources.

Kinda of a super tacnet.

And one cool feature is using a matrix connect to make up for not having a DNI link.
That makes sense if every thing is connected.



The bummer part is why all these functions can no longer be created with hardware.
And where did all the previous generation of hardware go?

Like when did using a matrix connection get faster than using a DNI link to command your gear?

Also every thing that you can do with the public matrix connection should by definition be possible with a private network and enough hardware provided you are willing to spend the cred...
The private network is totally controlled by the user, dedicated to the task at hand, and directly connected, so I would think it would be faster.

And of course much more private and a lot less likely to tip someone off it you are where you are not suppose to be.

I wouldn't be so sure. Police and military these days are wired. Well, the police in my city are, anyway. The military can have a portable network which is then connected to the corporation that runs that military branch, providing higher security. Can you hack it? Possibly, but I'd not hold my breath on it being anywhere close to easy. And being military, they may be just fine going 'silent' from time to time, then lighting up when they're actively engaged.

I honestly don't see this as much of a stretch.

You know what, fine, I'll give you that.

You still haven't explained how an exploding bullet still has enough not-exploded bits to report back the health of the target.



Here's my post on it.

The guess at density was overestimated based on some later findings.
Two-layer test (post 33)
I may not have ended posting, but my theoretical zig-zag design ended up not working with 0 airspace. There was some kind of cross-over corruption that I found later. Which would reduce the number of TFFs by half, but then world height doubled (from 128 to 256 blocks). So no net loss.

Followed by a later innovation.

It could be sending data in real-time on the way to the target, then present how much resistance it gets upon impact, which the software then runs through a probability matrix based on location, impact resistance (armour), and infra-red signature of the target.

Actually, depending on technology, the transmitter could be quite small, and depending on the type of bullet used, could remain intact in the back-end of the bullet fired. I mean, they have nanites in Shadowrun, I can presume there might be enough nanotechnology to do a health-check on the target after the shot is fired.

Hmm, interesting idea. Bullet as carrier to inject nanites....

I have to admit I am curious as well for this and the taser darts that do the same.

One thought I had was nanite technology. Just a few hundred loaded into the shell so when it fragments it starts streaming information (body temp, active blood flow or still, location - the later great for following someone who got shot and ran though the signal range of the nanites will be limited). Hell, throw in some activator types to switch any cyber from offline to wifi on and its a bonus. Bleeding AND vulnerable.

That's the answer I came up with, too. I can easily see this. And nanite-based RFID tags.

I would move to PC, which I build myself to avoid any 'always on' technology. When the big game makers move to always on, I'd wait for the pirates to work around that or do it myself. When they move to cloud-only gaming, I'll code my own games. Granted, I might be playing at Quake level, while everyone else is playing whatever the cutting edge is, but on the other hand, I'd still be playing. For those limited games I really want to play, I'd make an exception.

Sameso here. Wired reflexes are pretty big. I'd probably have to make a compromise there. But an extendable baton I can make myself, or find someone to do it for me. It might not be as shiny as cool as yours, but it will extend when I tell it to, and it will hit just as hard.

Doesn't actually provide health info.



Whereupon the bullet is now igniting an explosive detonation. This is Ex-Ex we're talking about



And the bullet is currently little more than flying shards passing through meat, and in no condition to be relaying information of any kind.



There are still forces involve here. Anything as small and as complex as a nanite isn't going to be sturdy enough to survive the concussion blast.



It exists. I believe they're more commonly used to inject drugs.

Hrm. How about...

...Predictive algorithms. They're not actually reporting back the health of the target. The health of the target is deterministic, based on all the data that the bullet collects and transmits into the matrix during flight.

I mean. Maybe it's a stretch, and maybe it shouldn't receive too much scrutiny, but operating under the assumption that there is some degree of determinism involved in the calculation, and the expected deviation inside of the predictive model is SUPER SMALL, then you could receive reliable data back, right?

And actually, that's a pretty good explanation of why it requires a Matrix Connection to work, right? Because the data necessary to make an accurate prediction is HUGE. And so to do so with any degree of accuracy requires a huge processing pool.

In fact. I'm going to go as far as saying that I like that explanation.



Haha. Neat.

You know, my Newphew plays a lot of Mine craft. I'm only slightly ashamed to admit that I didn't make the jump. It just reminded me of the video games I played in the late 80s that I was glad their modern implementations didn't look like any more.

I'm sure I'm just missing the point. Old dog. New tricks. And all that.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

EDIT: Also, don't forget that in addition to the transmission of data, the point at which data transmission ceases can also convey data. So part of that predictive model includes data related to the point at which transmission ceased, which can be correlated to various impact surfaces in addition to metahuman muscle viscosity (...errr... muscule viscosity?).

...It's really not. Explosions and shrapnel vectors are physics based, which are subject to very tiny alterations that cannot be measured or accounted for in predictive modeling. Heisenburg Uncertainty and the butterfly effect. It's what makes weather predictions little more than a guess more than 3 days out.



I wanted to build it Just Because but I never had the patience to actually do it.

Well, no, I don't think invoking Heisenburg is the correct answer here. The underlying Physics are not quantum, but classical. And the solution is a combination of very high definition sensors, and massive processing.

Today we can model (with accuracy), through distributed processing, ink drops ejected from print heads. Down to the molecular level. And by today, I mean: In the 1980s. In fact, that effective modelling is one of the reasons HP printers used to be so awesome.

A lesser calculation, like an abstract prediction of approximate wound cavity size should be reasonable in 2070. Note: It doesn't have to be a wound cavity of identical shape. Just an equivalent approximation, with some additional considerations like the liklihood of engaging vital organs.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

What does upgrading the matrix have to do with a baton? What does upgrading the matrix have to do with any cyberware? Cyberware did not need the matrix before why does it need it now that they updates the matrix? And what does upgrading the matrix have to do with it? Not to mention radio spectrum can only carry so much data. All of these things strain credibility beyond the breaking point. Sure cyberware might need software updates. But it does not need software updates to continue functioning in a normal fashion.

Because there totally isn't an entire underclass dedicated to thwarting the will of the corps when it comes to the Matrix, who would stand to profit massively by doing so.

Wait, nevermind, deckers are supposed to be back this edition!

That's right for the laser sight. And yeah it's powerful, but smartlinks are iconic technology.

And WR and RE didn't stack in SR4, right? You can't really translate SR3's version, since Reaction was a derived stat.

RetconretconretconretconretconRetconRetcon...

...retconRetconRetcon...

...Retcon.



RetconretconRetcon.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS