When has any DRM survived contact with the hacking community? The whole point of Deckers is that they crack corporate security. Explain why they can't do the same on a baton?

Yeah, there's a bit of a oddity if hackers can design illegal decks and and control software to do awful things to this New Matrix, yet somehow can't bypass the online functions of a stun baton.



-k

Because in addition to raw power, there's many other issues such as how many threads you can throw around (note that by throwing a bunch of threads around you make it a lot less possible to determine what it is you're running, because people aren't seeing anything close to the complete function) Now, sure, you could carry a bunch of commlinks and have your own little mesh in the area, which if you managed to carry enough (I think you're still underestimating the number) could do it, but all that would change is that you'd have functionality in dead zones.

The whole "can't hack me because signal range is only 3m" thing only works if there's nothing wireless inside that radius, which will almost never happen.



It's not the total processing power, it's the AVAILABLE processing power; seeing as the very best deck is not better for Data Processing than the very best commlink, it should be quite obvious that your deck's processing power is already allocated. So you'd have to free up a bunch of processing power before you'd have cycles available for this sort of processing.

Or do you have some sort of explanation that makes it irrelevant that the power isn't actually available?

Well yeah, the fact that this implies (more like outright requires) that literally every wireless device is set to run unsigned code from anyone, anywhere, of any kind. Even if you accept that, you still are going to have a really hard time explaining how that would help with extending a baton faster and other amusing shenanigans that have been shown so far.

In the end, any explanation is going to sound even dumber than the bare bones "because Reasons" in the core rulebook. Either dump it, modify it, or run it as-is with a wink and a nudge like people have done for technomancers

I'll say again - I've never claimed this explanation works for the action economy bonuses.

RHat, Wired: Other than trolling the rest of us (because that is what I believe you are doing) why do you support the steaming pile of fecal matter known as "Matrix Bonuses"?

I am really curious to why you would mash the "I BELIEVE!!!!!!" button so hard that even God is going "That's a pretty nice shot!"

Your central thesis seems to be that you can harvest excess processing capability from surrounding devices, yes? Even if we accept that explanation without qualifiers (zero overhead, zero latency, no security controls, dynamic binning of tasks) the problem is that it doesn't explain what is actually in the book.

I'm not sure a person could explain the bonuses as written and keep a straight face; you (imperial you, not calling out RHat) have to build an overly-complex straw argument to even start. I wouldn't even bother, honestly. It's clear what the design intent is, once the game hits the wilds people can make their own decisions about it. In my opinion the Shadowrun universe has bigger issues than magical wireless bonuses stacked on already magical wireless sitting next to magical wireless hackers with magical programs.

The Professor on Gilligan's Island could probably make a friggin nuke from two coconuts given the stuff he did every week, yet was stuck on the isle how long?

WARNING! WARNING! TV Trope page referenced: Rule of Funny

So I suppose you believe it's impossible for someone to legitimately hold a point of view that differs from yours? And that it's impossible to have valid reasons for holding such a position?

Seriously, if you're going to act like that there's no way in hell I'm going to bother with engaging you in any sort of discussion.



(A) Doesn't explain everything, nor did I at any point claim that it did. But it does explain many of them - for example, the boosts to to Vision Enhancement fit into this very, very well.

(B) It's not a matter of "zero" overhead, or "zero" latency - it's just a matter of low enough overhead and latency to allow the more complex algorithms to operate on the higher processing capability in a fast enough time scale.

Hey RHat, before you go off in a "Righteous Rage", I asked why you support these bonuses? My question is legit: What about these "Bonuses" makes you go "Yeah, I can believe that!"?

I can honestly say that I don't understand. I can not comprehend it. It makes so little sense to me that I wanted to know WHY you think that they are a good idea.

As for the "steaming pile of fecal matter" that was out of line. I apologize.

I have no idea what this thread is even about anymore.

Oh, I'm not going into any sort of rage - but a certain baseline level of respect is needed to have a reasonable discussion, and you amply demonstrated the absence thereof.

There's a few reasons. First, and foremost, I appreciate the design intent behind it - it may be part of once and for all solving on of the issues that developers have been trying to fix in Shadowrun for some time (poor integration of the decker into the group). It finally provides a general-case use for hacking in combat, without which the hacker would literally be the only one who doesn't get to use his specialty in combat. It works to establish just how different from and how much more powerful than the modern internet the Matrix actually is. It reflects the general intent and level of control the corps have in the setting. It solves serious issues in SR4's Matrix where it was possible to get a perfect hacking defense for free - and that's the sort of thing that should always cost.

Could it have been better implemented? Certainly. But the core idea is good, and most of the bonuses do make a certain kind of sense.

Generally speaking, this is all stuff I agree with!

The implementation of combat hacking didn't go far enough, in my opinion. I'd have dispensed with wireless bonuses entirely myself and just made (virtually everything) explicitly hackable virtually all the time, with the action resolution of combat hacking even more streamlined, down to one attack roll and one defense roll, like a gunshot or spell.

Wireless Bonuses were not my idea, but I was the guy who was told to seed the gear chapter with them. So I did so. I feel pretty bad that they're so spectacularly hated/reviled.

Eh. The ability to decide between the benefits of wireless or the lack of vulnerability is a good thing for player agency.

Only 1D6? Piker.

Well, you add another D6 if you bring War! into play.

That would have gone even worse than the wireless Boni, I'm sure. You'd rob all mundane characters of any agency in everything. It would have been a spectacularly bad idea.


The problem is they seem random and do not take into account what would logically benefit from wifi and what wouldn't, as has been mentioned all over dumpshock by now. Take that as a learning experience, and don't take it personal, because it isn't.

Most of us aren't arguing against the CORE idea (hackers being able to hack gear). Our biggest issue is the implementation, which you just admitted "could have been done better." For certain instances, the argument is that specific bonuses don't make sense, and realistically (with all of Shadowrun's Tech so far, back even to the 2050's) would be more likely to offer such bonuses WITHOUT Matrix access.

To wit, it doesn't make sense that if you were in a desert, far from the Matrix or any Grid, with all of your gear, an extendable baton, and your commlink, that the Baton would not be able to extend from a mental signal transmitted through that commlink to take up only a free action. It doesn't make sense that having 20-50 Response 6 commlinks daisy-chained into your PAN, streamlined, and dedicated purely to processing data from your smartlink/laser sight won't provide as much computing power as a few household nodes throwing up their spare processing power and leaving a potential trail (or even that it WOULDN'T leave a trail).

The SOP for runners has already been established. Zero/minimal visibility is already a cornerstone of this. You won't eliminate every last scrap of evidence, but that doesn't mean a runner will wallow in their visibility in any regard.

DRM won't survive the first month, heck the first week, that Corps require it. Deckers will have it cracked; gear will be "jail-broken" and functioning offline about as good as online. Patching a few chips here and there will bring runners back to dark when they need to be. Even "software in the cloud" will be ripped, re-engineered, and posted for illegitimate use before the corps can finish posting the update notes; if not, an equivalent freewarez will be created in short order by dedicated hackers, anarchists, programmers, and open-source aficionados.

I disagree with this in the strongest and most fundamental terms. Hackable equipment is not incompatible with and does not infringe upon player agency. At all.

And what about the agency of hackers, including PC hackers, to be able to hack stuff? In combat, when everyone else is doing their specialty?



Fair enough, hermit.



Why, why, why, why, why, why, why? Is there howling when NPCs use guns versus players? Drones? Spirits? Magic? Why can everything go both ways except hacking?

If an NPC mage in SR4 throws a Force 6 manabolt at an unprotected Willpower three characters and rolls so many net successes so that character explodes like a magic-filled meat grenade, is there howling?

If an NPC sniper shoots an unsuspecting PC in the head with a Barret 121 and instantly kills them, is there howling?

Now what about if an elite hacker or technomancer NPC like Puck or Dodger wirelessly detonates the grenades a PC is carrying? (I pick the wireless functionality of grenades because it is one of the wireless boni that makes the most sense to me.) Howling then?

If yes to the first two, then maybe the question is one of how the GM uses the tools at his disposal, not anything to do with the medium in which death is delivered. If no to the first two but yes to the second, what about hacking innately makes it more upsetting to happen to you as a player than having a mage blow you up with a manabolt, tuck you in like a baby at night with a sleep spell, or control your mind? I'll never understand the selective aspect of this absurd philosophy of entitlement.

Because hacking, implemented this way, would equal a sniper taking potshots from the astral, with elemental effect APDS and a base pool of 18 (accuracy 10). Astral snipers can only be fought by other astral snipers, too, and everything you really can do is hope you can soak enough damage until your own astral sniper can snipe the enemy astral sniper away (who, though, suffers from extreme astral fading and has only a few turns to dispose of the enemy astral sniper).

Do you think that kind of sniper would cause an outrage?


Hacking does not go both ways. That's the problem. Hacking is a one-sided attack a non-hacker has little chance to defend against. We're talking abozut 20 pool versus 12 (max) pool. Do the math, it is nowhere near equivalent. And unlike a mage, hackers don't need physical LoS. They attack from the comfort of another realm. Where exactly does this go both ways.


You mean like the Face or the Vehicle Rigger?


No, keeping the wireless on on these is Darwin Award level stupidity.

I was not complaining, merely citing the differences in style gameplay given what rules we have.

And for the 3 questions, most players would howl a bit at the sudden death in each case. But that doesn't make it any less possible. The Barret solution is the optimal choice for dealing with a cybertroll steamrolling over the security forces in a pink Mohawk campaign because you don't want to be close to that thing.

Having the hacking sped up for trash mobs in the matrix while still having the more drawn out fights when facing the boss types could be very appealing, but I do not know if the new layout would support this. May need some house ruling.

Fair point. I do have a counter-argument, but as it's quite lengthy and involved and a bit subjective, I'll let you have this point for now; with the caveat that the vehicle rigger can easily bring his vehicle to bear in many combats, even if not in all combats.



I don't see any validity to that comparison, hermit. None, zero.

A hacker is not invulnerable or unexposed when attempting to hack you. A hacker attempting to hack you in SR5 is sticking his neck WAY out. If he fails rolls, he automatically takes Matrix damage, you can get marks on him, and so on. Plus if you keep your PAN disconnected from the Matrix (which there's no rule against doing) he can only hack you from mutual signal range, which doesn't require him to be within groping distance, but it does put him within shooting distance. So just, you know...shoot him.



Fascinating. SK, do you think that most fans would agree with your final statements?



This is not actually ANYTHING LIKE what dice pools look like in SR5. I would know better than you, I played a hacker during SR5 playtesting.

10-14 vs. ~12 is generally what attacker vs. defender hacking dice pools look like in SR5.

I am so adding that to the range lists

As people have been saying until they are blue in the face, it is the implementation of wireless bonuses that have people so upset. No one would be upset if tacnets became ubiquitous, and gave bonuses to perception, allowed indirect fire, and let you communicate with team members as a free action. No one would be upset if the hacker hacked into the tacnet, or hacked into the building's security, or hacked a rotodrone and had it crash onto the team's van. A hacker hacking into someone's cyberware, because of a forced choice between either being vulnerable to hacking, or having your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers being inexplicably unable to work together, is upsetting. Especially because it is all but impossible to defend against (magic is the same in a lot of ways. This is a major weakness of the system - not something to be replicated with hacking, so that now the sammie needs two people babysitting him).

In combat, everyone else is not doing their specialty. The medic does not get special attacks due to his knowledge of human anatomy. The mechanic does not get to do extra damage to drones because of his know-how. The face, even if he is a pornomancer, can't realistically tell the guards shooting guns at him "Hey, quit Ares, and come work for me." Hackers are utility characters, not combat characters. They can still hack tacnets, override building security, tap into satellite feeds, hack drones, and do a million other useful things in combat, though.

BTW, this is false. There's no mention of being a true fan in the OP. I see no "True Scotsman" fallacy here. Just contending this one point: am aware that OP was not paragon of fallacy-free logical argument.

He cannot die. The worst that can happen is that his deck is bricked. He can hack from a comfortable office. And Commlinks cannot even use Marks. Unless he is fighting another hacker, characters have no way to harm the hacker nearly symmetrically.


Given the nature of the mesh Matrix, that makes no sense at all. Please quote the relevant rules? Also, he can still have a wall between himself and the character fairly easily unless he is attempting to hack someone in wide-open fields or something.


That seems incredibly low. Log 7 + hacking 6 + specialisation already is 15 dice, and that is before programs, deck boni and anything else.

Keep in mind there are at least five or six distinct Shadowrun 5s in any discussion between me and another individual, plus if other people are involved in this discussion, as many more variants of SR5 as there are of them.

* There's my ideal SR5, which I didn't get to write.

* There's my subjective understanding of the rules of SR5 as they do exist, which is potentially either flawed or so subjective as to be neither correct nor incorrect, just is. Call this Rules As Intended, I guess.

* There's the Rules As Written of SR5, which are subject to interpretation, hence see both above and below.

* There's your subjective understanding of the rules of SR5 as they do exist, ditto the clauses in the bullet point two above this one.

* There's your ideal SR5.

And everyone else involved in the discussion adds an additional bullet point four with THEIR subjective understanding of SR5.

My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal.

***

And to anyone who has found any of my posts at any point abrasive or vitriolic or offensive, I'm genuinely sorry...still, my mind absolutely boggles at the well-mannered, milquetoast, sheltered, molly-coddled corners of the internet you must currently inhabit to have been offended by my posts, as at most of the places where I hang out, which are nicer than places I know of where other people hang out, none of what I said would have registered even a blip on someone's shit-radar, let alone a warning.



Decks don't have bonuses, they have limits.

Programs don't grant bonus dice, they modify limits or add utility functions.

Keep in mind "bonus dice" as a thing are basically gone almost all of the time.

Logic 7 + Hacking 6 + an assumed to be relevant specialization would be taking the possible min-maxing to its further conceivable extreme, since Logic 7 requires a quality to even get, and keep in mind, half of hacking tests are Intuition based, so you need points for that too.



*sigh*

I'm tired of talking about this. I find it exhausting and upsetting and unproductive. I may be back later...

That has been what some of the screaming has been about as it seems you need matrix connection for the bonuses, PAN doesn't cut it.

Though the one guy trying to daisy chain 20-50 commlinks together to make his own mini-matrix may be onto something

In the baton case of course you use a wireless signal to extend or retract as normal simple action, but if the baton is running wireless on then it can be a free action.

It doesn't mean that your signal to extend is pinging out to the cloud, but maybe it is more reactive due to being connected and some such but will leave it to a cyberneticist to explain.

Welcome to the party.

Yes, that sounds very genuine indeed, followed by yet another row of insults.
That well-mannered, milquetoast, sheltered, molly-coddled corner would be where people do not call each other 'silly poo-poo heads' (hint: an insult doesn't get better when you package it in babytalk; this might work when you're talking IRL where people can see your face), aka almost everywhere that's not 4chan or reddit when referring to each other's opinions.


Please don't bother. I for one am tired of your attitude and find it upsetting, exhaustive and unproductive.


On the bright side, your understanding of how wireless bonuses work explains perfectly why they don't work. Too bad, because some of them, and the general concept seems to be inspired.

This whole concept was never really explored in Shadowrun. In First Edition you could share programs with others and piracy wasn't particularly difficult (SR1, p. 117) but the implications were never discussed.

Virtual Realities (1) effectively stated that the hardware itself was fundamentally compromised (VR1, p. 33) so you need to create your own custom operating system. Why didn't deckers cooperate on creating badass MPCP programs and share them? Because REASONS man. The MPCP was "custom-aligned to a specific decker's brainwave patterns" (VR1, p. 26) and buying stuff off the shelf made you look like a poser wimp (VR1, p. 31). You could still share programs but off-the-shelf meant you couldn't upgrade (VR1, p. 40) which was a big hassle since everything took forever to do in VR1.

I don't remember what the SR2 core book said on the subject. But that doesn't really matter because . . .

Virtual Realities 2.0 revamped everything. Again, the hardware was compromised (VR2, p. 76 and p. 90). There was no cooperative way to reduce SOTA costs (VR2, p. 78). IIRC from discussion at the time the costs already assumed you could get access to private lists and other sources of updates which is why the lifestyle cost breaks and alternate maintenance costs worked like they did. You could now use already created MPCP programs but it's supposedly risky (VR2, p. 82). Core deck functions were burned into WORM optical chips, but were then loaded onto the deck from there (effectively, yeah don't think about it too hard). Programming in teams was a thing (VR2, p. 102) but they were really gimped and required a Computer Skill god to wrangle more than a handful of people. Want an off-the shelf program? Well pay full price chummer, ain't nothing in this world available for free (but you do get source code access as part of the cost) (VR2, p. 107). Wait ... doesn't that mean you could just post it on Shadowland? Uh well ... uhh.. moving on.

SR3 basically restated VR2, including the part about tattletale firmware (SR3, p. 200).

Matrix honestly didn't change much, and IMO was more a "Otaku sourcebook." Oh, you could actually program your own IC now. Matrix made programming itself an entire subsystem which I won't get into. Programming teams pretty much worked the same (Matrix, p. 80). buying software carried some risks and could have nasty payloads (Matrix, p. 94). But you got a copy of the source code ... so I'm not sure what the reasoning behind this was. Notice I'm not talking about copy protection? Well, it doesn't exist as far as I can tell. Either you get the program (with source code) or you don't.

Unwired was the first Matrix book to really pull Shadowrun forward to the well ... actually the BBS days. Like the others it assumes that people are not sharing their high-end utilities and the base assumption is that deckers don't cooperate like that. Maybe something to bring up with the SR5 writers?

I think that you have misunderstood my attitude nearly as much as is humanly possible. I think you are seeing what you want to see, and nothing else but that at this point, but what is in front of you is a person that attended no offense whatsoever. Once again, I apologize if I gave offense. It IS genuine, whatever you may think.

Personally, I think you see yourself as well-intended. This is, however, entirely disconnected from how you come across.
I am perfectly willing to discuss this via PM.

The heartfeltness of this statement and the lack of offensiveness and civility is just amazing. Not.


Quickstart rules prove you wrong there, Devon.


Yes, that explains things. It does not explain why the Matrix boni were written by someone who doesn't understand the Matrix rules but hey, I guess we're back to SR's editing problems.


Not taking potshots at the people you're apologizing to is always a good idea.

As amazing as it may seems, this discussion actually brought up an interesting fact.
So, most of the wireless bonus were decided with a different rule in mind that the one written in the book?

Let me back up a bit, because I was a bit confused/emotional posting in the heat of the moment above and as NATH pointed out some shit I said was FACTUALLY INACCURATE. I don't think it's fair or called for to say, unilaterally, that I don't understand the Matrix rules, but the Matrix be confusing, and I think anyone can potentially get confused. Still, not my proudest moment!

"These benefits only apply when the item's wireless mode is on. Your Ares Alpha can't adjust for the wind direction and speed if it can't download the up-to-the-second weather conditions, and your Eurocar Westwind 3000 doesn't know the status of the next three traffic lights if it's not connected to GridGuide. A wireless device is always vulnerable to subversion and control by a hacker within wireless handshake range. You can defend your gear with a good commlink and a personal area network. Even better, defending against threats from the Matrix is part of your team hacker's job. If she's not available, you might occasionally want to turn wireless off."

I wrote this text, I recognize my examples there for the Ares Alpha. So clearly *at some point* I knew that Wireless bonuses required Matrix functionality. In hindsight, it appears they DO require Matrix functionality according to the 5E RAW. In other words...

"My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal."

I was completely fucking wrong here. My bad!

That said, I think that MOST items SHOULD still receive wireless bonuses with PAN, not Matrix, connectivity. What's important to me is that wireless bonuses encourage device hackability, not that they require MATRIX connectivity perse. But of course, and I've said this before...my ideal version of Shadowrun is not what SR5 is. SR5 is a collaborative effort between many, many, many cooks. So yes, it seems that in RAW, ALL Wireless Bonuses DO require Matrix connectivity. Which is...an idea I was once cognizant of, clearly, but not one I am currently defending.

I want everything to be hackable, I don't necessarily want everything to be hackable over the Matrix from your cozy apartment with complete impunity and freedom from reprisal. Ideally, I want wireless hacking to have approximately the same range of engagement of a sniper rifle, unless something is (with good reason) connected to the Matrix, and which point it becomes more comparable to astral travel. Again, what I want has no bearing on what actually IS in SR5 because I am not its sole/chief author.

It happens. Again as you said there are many writers and plans so maybe at one point it was going to be PAN reliant but the end product went a different route.


See? We are not so different afterall

except we of course know who is better looking......

*using wifi comb and nanite hair gel*

False: Logic 5 and Cerebral Booster level 2 gives you logic 7... and (based on SR4) available at character gen.

Is it just my feeling, but ... which author exactly is totally happy with the RAW implementation of the matrix online bonuses? As in "it is totally awesome" and not "well, I would have done it different" or "I think it was meant differently"?

SYL

Well yeah, since IIRC you are one of the three or four people whose initial reaction to my OP was more "that's kind of funny" than "omfg holocaust 2.0". (Trigger warning: latter example makes use of exaggeration.)



To nitpick: in SR parlance, that'd be what we call Logic 5 (7) (what my SR5 hacker Tesseract had), not just 'Logic 7', which (to my mind) implies the 7 is natural. *shrug*



I doubt any of us is 100% satisfied with every aspect of SR5.

I am not talking about "every aspect" of SR5, just about this specific aspect, as it was worth a blog entry ... and long and bitter discussions on Jackpoint, Dumpshock and German forums as well.

SYL

Seiously. You're not funny. You're not even offensive anymore. You're just sad by this point. What do you hope to accomplish by this? Who do you want to impress by being as dickish as possible?

Yeah, but is still Logic 7 and getting hacking 6 plus specialization is doable at character gen. So right out of the box I can have the super hacker that Hermit was talking about.

Now before anyone says anything about min-max... if the decker is going to be the new "hotness" and everything is on the matrix, then it stands to reason that a drek hot decker is going to boost himself in this fashion. I mean, if everything is hackable, then why not.

Can't shoot a gun... shut their's down.
Don't have enhanced reflexes, shut their's down.
Don't have drones, take their drones over... and shoot them with it.

It makes sense that if you're going to do something that is now part and parcel of the game (which I strongly disagree with) that you crank it up to 15 (forget 11... that is so last century!!! <insert emoticon of your choice>)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Excuse me. I needed to get that out of my system.

So, uhh... Trolling?

I'm not sure what you mean. I've said repeatedly that this all boils down to implementation. This should be so obvious that I'm not sure why I've had to repeat it so many times.

Two men are racing. One man is in a wheel chair. The other is an Olympian. Who will win?

The fool answers: The Olympian.

The Engineer answers: How are they racing?

Get it?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

So, what does the Face do again?

Commlinks out for Pizza like Freb in 'Gone in 60 Seconds' ?

The reader answers: Who cares.

Sounds like we have a good candidate for a Basket Weaving and/or Psychology Major, here.

Edit: Pro-Tip: How to answer questions about the fundamentals of Computer Systems -- Pause. Stare thoughtfully into the sky. And then say, with all the gravity you can muster: "Well... That's a good question. That answer is... it depends."

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I just learned that the SR 5 Face has become something akin to the D&D bard, using leadership skill. This is something that had already started in a 4th edition sourcebook, but now it's become core book RAW.

Except that the in-game effects that you're trying to rationalize were generated by someone who has explicitly stated that he did not actually understand how the game mechanic he was writing about worked.

And this engineer wonders what sort of Olympian, why one guy is in a chair, and fifteen different questions about the metrics of the race.