Ergo, extendable batons must require distributed computing methods in order to achieve the result of a wireless bonus.

(Because any other solution doesn't behave in a manner that is consistent with the rule, right?)

Okay, so there's so two things floating around here. Let's clarify:

One is the following statement, which is false: A given system with unknown requirements, design, and implementation must operate under some specific arbitrary criteria.

This statement is false.

It continues to be false when extended to say that a directly wired connection is the sole consideration that must be made when determining what type of system will execute the steps between task inception and task completion.

The true statement is as follows: It may or may not operate in some described way. There is no must in this discussion. To paraphrase Yoda: May or may not. There is no must.

(Well, not completely accurate. The transmission of information, the storage of information, and the computation of information must eventually be tied some some physical medium of our universe. Electrons. Photons. Rocks. New York Cheese Cake. Something. It isn't all logical, there is a physical component as well.)

The second thing floating around is how things appear to work, as written, in Shadowrun Fifth Edition.

It appears that, based on specific criteria that we as players do not have access to, the Requirements, Design, and Implementation of the systems favor a distributed (Ubiquitous, Highly Efficient Internet of Things, really take your pick) model.

Ergo, in the abstract nature of comparing two undefined systems, it is ignorant to make claims about how they must behave.

Ergo, in the concrete example of Shadowrun it appears that the model selected favors distributed computing.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Fill in the blank:

Extendable batons have a free-action extension time when connected to the matrix (all of it, not PAN, but the entire cloud) because _______________ .
Internal air tanks requires a matrix (all of it) connection in order to report how much air is inside of it because _______________ .

Well it obviously does waste precious nano seconds.. What was a free action is now a simple action and for some unknown reason a complicated action with out the matrix. Why did wired reflexes get so sloooooow all of a sudden?

...because the criteria for a successful design prompted a group of Sixth World Scientists and Engineers to implement such a system?

I'm not really sure what you're reaching for here, dude.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. There are no free actions that are turned into simple actions as a result of matrix action in SR:5.

Are you referring to how things used to work in a different in-game universe? That is not relevant to this discussion -- How things "used to work" has been baselined into new functionality. See also: Retcon.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Gaming rules are suppose to model life.
Or model the genre.

Good rules work to reinforce the genre.
I have to say I like how you only get half bonuses for not having smartgun cyberware.
I like how the guard dogs in SR have gotten a boost enough to be a threat to unarmed man.
I like skills going up to 12.
I really like the recoil is cumulative for the turn.
Much closer to my vision of Shadowrun.

A couple of the new rules in 5th are coming out of right field with little or no supporting fluff.
They seem rushed and a stretch from the 25 year old Shadowrun genre.
Seems like a large group here on Dumpshock agree.
As a GM, I'm within my rights to say they don't fit my vision of Shadowrun.
Just like you are to say they do.

But the next few months is the time to speak up and tell the designers what works and what doesn't.

Just to name a few, it does seem obvious that the balance of power is with the Awaken.
I would like to have seen a few examples of what the professionals (like SWAT) did as SOP for matrix security (other than have the best decker they could get along with them).
That the bioware is much better than cyberware which seems strange for a cyberpunk game.
Also the one thing that cyberware had in SR4 was it was cheap and now not so much (except for cheaper grades of cyberware).

Hopefully the errata and future supplements will fine tune these areas.

EXACTLY!! There is some sort of conspiracy going on and the batons are at the heart of it!

Upon disassembling a baton to examine the wireless feature we discovered several extra components inside.

<crackle> are not just <crackle> about the normal distributed comp<crackle>ture.

<crackle>ponents looking <crackle>asis for a proto dec<crackle> or so<crackle> but smaller than <crackle>ve seen before.

M<crackle>od, this <crackle> to be piggyback<crackle>carri<crackle>gnal like one massive dai<crackle>.............

*Convergence authorised*

-Connection Terminated-

Jack out, Chummer! The fuzz is onto you!(!!!)

After spending sometime I think that PANs are the Matrix so count for wireless bonuses. The Matrix is pretty much everywhere, and where its not its because there is a lot of noise in that location. And in those location your PAN won't work and you can't be hacked, so it's effectively like having your wireless off.

Basically if it has wireless on, it can be seen on the Matrix. So it doesn't mean it requires a connection to the Matrix per se, but its wireless needs to be on so that it can connect to multiple other wireless devices, which in turn will make a "Matrix" for the purpose of counting wireless bonuses.



Sounds like it only needs to have wireless on. Doesn't REQUIRE a connection to the Matrix, but it will appear on the Matrix if wireless is on, going by how the Matrix is kind of like Astral Space now.

Except that it's not. Wired_SR_AEGIS previously quoted the rules that say that being isolated (ungerground, in the woods, jammed) you lose wireless bonuses.

Yep. PANs are not The Matrix for rules purposes, although they will be for houserule purposes because apparently part of my responsibility for running SR5 is fixing idiotic rules mistakes that got to print.

Except this isn't the case, unless your interpretation of the wireless bonus is that you can only check the air tank level / purity when you are constantly informed of its status. I wouldn't make that leap without word from on high.

I saw a leaked document on CGL headed paper today - apparently the first splat book is going to be based on another Meteoric Event.
The first and only noticeable effect is that "Air-Tanks" around the globe ALL simultaneously go OFFLINE !

Can you just imagine the panic ?!?! ...

anyways, don't tell anyone I told you this, it'll break my NDA !

Go read the book where it says no matrix connection no wireless bonus... Thus you can not do anything listed under wireless bonus. Which happens to be check air tank status.

Wonderful. An air tank with a gauge which you cannot read when you are underwater.

They must be flying off the shelves.

And now you know why my arguments with Wired_SR_AEGIS have gone the way they did.

Actually you need the wireless connection to activate the special flight option as well.

Also awesome for blowing up balloons, again wireless required.

I'm going to need a page number.

Page 421, Wireless Bonuses:

But that makes it sound like a Matrix connection is just any wireless connection, which it is. Not that its literally talking to the cloud. So something like an air tank you'd be able to connect to it wireless, which means its on "the Matrix," because if you go VR while underwater, you'll be able to see the device in the Matrix topology, even if you can't see the rest of the Matrix.

Except that the Matrix is grid-based, now. They don't have special underwater grids, ya know.

~Umi

If its in handshake range, you can hack it. So you can see it on the Matrix. If its beyond that 100 meters handshake range, then you need to be on a grid in order to just see it.

So a street sam without a deck needs to hack his own internal, DNI gear with the deck he doesn't have and cannot afford (due to cyberware costs) in order to access what, less than 10 years ago when he got it installed, was baseline functionality that did not previously require a full-on matrix connection.

Most of the matrix bonuses would make better sense as PAN bonuses, still leaving them open to hacking and noise greater than their ratings. If you're underwater (one of the key areas an internal air tank would be helpful), then you only need to be a few meters down to be without a matrix signal, and would lose that core function that you may have wanted that airtank for...

... of course, RAW, you CANNOT get an analogue airtank gauge installed and poking out through your chest to tell you, because you require that Matrix Connection you have absolutely no access to.

RAW.

I can write code today that would process faster in 2075 than that Matrix-Required algorithm, and do the same job at least as good. If the corps won't do it, then plenty of other people WILL do it for their (former) customers.

No. What I'm saying is if wireless is on, its on the Matrix, even if you can't access your grid, that is assuming you are in handshake range. You don't have to hack your own gear, because you already have ownership of your gear, so no test required.

Basically, I'm saying you have a 100 meter PAN and if your stuff is in that 100 meters, it also counts as a Matrix, so gets Matrix bonuses. Its in the spirit of the rules, and makes sense with how the Matrix works; seeing how the Matrix works similar to Astral Space now. By having your wireless on, your gear becomes "dual natured" and so can be attacked from the Matrix, and gets the bonuses from being "dual natured" with the Matrix. Like wise, noise zones, are like background count. A spirit can't be in a BGC that reduces the to 0, and neither can your gear exist in a place that "reduces" your gear's device rating to 0.

Not according to the rules. Your gear has to be connected to the matrix to get the bonus.

However it does clearly state in the quotation that the bonus doesn't exist if you're in a static zone etc. Underwater counts as just such a zone. yes it should be PAN or even DNI, but RAW isn't RAI probably is.

Just because you believe you are connected because your wifi is on, unless you are actually drawing upon that Matrix and all the information it is carrying, you are not going to gain the benefits of the wireless bonus. This is why you lose your bonuses in dead zones or any area where you lose that matrix connection. Your PAN or the PAN of the guy down the road that you might be able to detect as it is in handshake range is not sufficient according to the way the current writing portrays this.

This is why several GMs will be sitting down to house rule which items may work with a PAN alone and which really do need a full on Matrix connection. The air tank SHOULD just report to your PAN and job done, but the way they have it written now that is not how it works, hance all the many, many threads of arguing.

It's probably the single largest point of confusion for myself how this got through all the playtesting. Not the part about hacking-that is sort of the whole point of the wireless aspect, but rather how many of the most basic items should have been left at the PAN level instead of this Matrix requirement. A decker will still be able to mess with the air tank once they crack through your Commlink, but some basic functions should work regardless of connection to the web.
So as an example Internal airtank would have two levels:

Pan connected: Provides level of air remaining, Turns on or off as free action
Matrix connected: Samples air being breathed in (as it has the ability to refill itself over time) and alerts you to purity/gases issues. (High levels of CO2 or detects a hazardous gas). Rather that having a database of gases within the tanks processor, it accesses the Matrix for information to compare against.
May trigger the air tank automatically to take over in situation above.

No, it sounds like you want it to be like that. From what I've read, that's not how I'm interpreting it. You can play the game however you want, but I don't see the rules being so strict and inflexible.

Also, the wireless Matrix is pretty much everywhere anyway. So unless you are something like a hobbyist spelunker you probably won't be losing Matrix access too often.

Um, no .. that's the point, nobody would want it to be the way as presented. I certainly do not want it to be that inflexible. But it is how it is written so I always have to keep an eye on this for the purposes of future Missions or Tournament play as this will be how they run it.

That is very true, you can houserule however you like, but we are merely pointing out what has been listed within the books AND confirmed by several of the playtesters and others involved in the making of this, including the OP of this very thread that you have joined onto. If you are just playing with your group I am sure you will have an enjoyable campaign, but if you are ever planning to play with other groups or convention play and they stick to the RAW you are going to be facing a different interpretation than you currently believe to be the case and this can cause unnecessary bickering and friction.


Oh we agree about the widespread availability of the matrix, unless you are in a cave or underwater (and yes you will lose signal strength rapidly underwater, specifically page 231- fresh water reduces signal by 1 per 10cm and salt water is 1 per 1cm) so even moderate depths will pretty much cancel the whole connection to the matrix, which was one of the complaints about the air tank as it is used as an emergency back up for breathing when your in a smoke filled room or other similar low oxygen areas, including being underwater. So according to this if I was diving just off the coast, I would lose my matrix connection and the wireless bonus of being able to see my air levels when I go more than 10 cm down. Which IS just silly and SHOULD be allowed to be handled by the PAN alone. But that is not how it is currently written.

However those points aside, this debate was triggered by your own statement a ways back as follows:
So on one hand you are saying, yes we have to connect to the matrix, BUT I don't actually have to connect to the REAL matrix as my PAN and all the devices I slave to it are making up my own mini-matrix. And this is where we are trying to show you that is not it works as written.

If the items are connected to the Matrix, and by this we mean whether directly or slaved through your PAN and accessing the local grid you happen to be within, then yes you do get your wireless bonuses as stated by the rules.

However if you were in an area where there was no overall matrix signal to tap into (can think of a few places in the middle of what used to be Montana and Nebraska where I can never get my cellphone to work) that unless you set up a satellite linkup, you do not have access to Matrix in general and no wireless bonuses.

But your argument that the items in your PAN would make up a mini-Matrix and thus provide the so called wireless bonuses is not supported by the rules as they currently read.

We DO think it should be the way you explain for SOME things and want to have it clarified so that simple things like air tanks and batons extending CAN be included under the auspices of being part of the PAN alone.

But some items WILL need to be connected to a proper Matrix and not just your PAN to get their bonuses. An example for this would be a Medkit which has to have online Matrix connection to consult databases to determine BEST methods of treatment. It DOES have a built in database to provide it with basic functions to add to your skills but for better bonuses or to let it operate on its own you need a full on connection to the web and not your PAN alone. A device like that would not be able to be supported by your PAN as your commlink or your baton probably doesn't know the first thing about trying to counteract an exotic poison or how to extract a barbed arrow head without causing massive tearing).

Likewise your smartgun when wifi enabled is supposed to automatically pick up details like wind speeds and other factors to allow it to adjust to get those bonuses. Just running it on the PAN alone would not provide this bonus as it is written.
But I could make an argument that if I buy a small additional sensor pack and tie it into my PAN to provide the necessary updates I should be allowed to claim the equivalent of the wireless bonuses, but again as it is written I can not.

So we are not really disagreeing, I support your concept but this is not what the current edition believes for some strange reason and thus our lobbying for this to be adjusted to a more sensible version like you present.

And YES, I plan to play it just like this with PAN handling much of these effects, but it still needs to be brought to the attention of those above the silliness of the way they have left it.

Well I'm going to house rule some of this,

First will be recatagorising the wireless bonuses to be needing a active Pan or a active Matrix connection I'm going with it being a cock up and some were supposed to be used in a pan.
Second will be reversing the smartlink bonuses they make more sense to me the other way around and I'll have a look at the rest just in case
Third the hacking of cyberware will need some sanity added, Your wired reflexes shouldnt be hackable if its not connected to anything (IE it doesnt need to be connected to anything to do its normal job) so no hacking. But if you link it up to something like your commlink then that might be a way into the system.
Other stuff will be on a case by case basis as wel play.

Actually your own gear cannot form their own "Matrix". It was explicitly confirmed by the devs/authors, that, for example, you have no wireless / online bonuses in the desert in or wifi inhibitating buildings (without any workaround like a satellite dish or a fibre optic cable leading to the outside).

No Matrix, no online bonuses.

SYL

I did some house ruling and a little bit if gear writing for working with the Wireless bonus stuff. Working up on some more bits. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39155
Also looking at the TacNet thread with interest.

I'm waiting until the 5E Equivalent of Unwired to come out before I make any meaningful comment on this whole deal, but I'm wagering they bring back 4E's "Z-Zone" matrix connections; mesh connections, joining together to form a stronger whole, permitting wireless connectivity where otherwise you would have none - typically these examples spoke of large numbers of people all with commlinks creating an effective Matrix just from overlapping signals (nevermind that the real world equivalent would bog down beneath wireless interference - maybe they use a band that isn't affected so severely). With the power of electronics in 2075 I wager a small group of 3-4 could create something similar. So if you're alone, you're boned, but get your team together and everything's hunky-dory.

Just my thoughts. Again, I'll wait til the new Unwired hits and see what gaffs they fix - if they don't errata some of these out of existence entirely.