Come now, that's simple. The laser uses cloud based telemetry and video data to determine just about when your bullet hits; it then grabs some extra power from the "cloud" and turns into a quasi lethal laser, partially melts the targets armor in the localized location in which the bullet will hit, increasing armor penetration and therefore adding +1 DP.

Duh.

Like folks have said, it's not the idea, it's the execution.





-k

The point, in SR5, is to make that an actual decision rather than something where there is one and only one clearly right way. You can argue the implementation all you like, but it's a good goal.

By the way, just as the phrase "Hack CCTV" makes no sense in Hollywood, it shouldn't make any sense in Shadowrun.

The only way one should be able to hack cybereyes would be the way it was done in Accel World (if you have not seen, go watch, it was well executed).

A less offensive answer would have been: "Of course the laser sight lacks both the required sensor as well as the computational power to achieve that goal on its own ... thus the need for Matrix interaction where the sensor data of the whole surroundings can be requested as well as the informational aggregation be performed - more or less real time".

See, both Laser Sight and Smart Link actually are the two better examples of the implementation. The only disturbing part being that limit increase and dice pool increase should occur the other way round: +DP as basic function and +L when external data aquisition is enabled.

I think the big BIG BIG problem with this whole matrix bonus thing is that there's a MASSIVE difference between "wireless capable" and "connected to your comlink."

The world is choke-full of good ideas with no way to implement them well.

I really do like the idea of deckers having a purpose other than their own little hacking side story after you get them to the jack point they need to access the paydata or they just force their way in from elsewhere. I like them providing EWar support and essentially being the technological overwatch. But maybe making everything require online access to be [more] useful was to expand the range of usefulness that hackers provide. TacNets were a good start with SR4, and many people have mentioned that communications and TacNets were more powerful than most people credited. Maybe force in quicker ways to shut down/trick cameras and sensors along with better ways to both protect and shut down drones and you have a very efficient support character. Now we're just going to see every decker going for the smartgun link on the opposition and forcing their clip to drop and the manual trigger to not respond.

It feels like they went from a way to provide their team bonus dice and deny the opposition some has instead turned into shut down each cybered enemy 1 at a time. It requires less broad thinking... also seems eerily reminiscent of Frank's matrix for SR4... how long until we see brain hacks?

Wonder what he'd think about that . .

What actually bothers me in that regard is the likelyhood of not even that occuring, because the easiest standard tactic would still be to simply level the playground for all combatants by usage of area jamming, because even with the obviously speeded access of hackers it still takes far too long to "debuff" opposition in a meaningfull way.

Again. The software's not in the hardware, it's in the cloud, and requires you to hook up to it to run the software.

Strangely enough, GitS falls under 'cyberpunk'. So, yes. You can have GitS in Shadowrun. They're not exclusionary.

I think one thing I'm going to need to add to this entire conversation, and which should probably be a policy on DumpShock:

"Don't yuck my yum."

Is that really a fair poll?

3x "awesome" and 1x "I am stupid and I admit it?

*sigh*

What about:
# "Thats supercool and we need it in SR immediately in the same way and I am so glad that SR5 did it, it really improved the gameplay and expended the world and the system.
# "Its ok, but the implementation should be more SR-like, because, well, we are usually playing the bad guys, not Section 9 with a monster budget and 800 Build points, where everyone in S9 tend to be a high level hacker as well as being a general badass.
# It´s stupid, go away.

You do realize that there is a difference between having a good idea and making good rules to support this good (or bad) idea.

But probably no, you do not realize it.

SYL

Ah ... no.

You are confusing DNI control and Wifi control. Again, logging on to your commlink and from there starting your cyberware control application, selecting the cyberware, typing "Please open the finger comparment", authorizing it sending that via satellite link to the cloud, have it processed there, having it send back to your finger compartement (which has an own satellite link, because desert, you know) and then having the cloud processed message executed is faster than think "open the damn thing".

SYL

GitS is totally cyberpunk
But LotR is totally Fantasy, doesn't mean it works in a Forgotten Realms game.

Shadow is both a Setting and a System. Hacking Cyberware and elements of GitS are awesome as inspirations for aspects of SR but some things are out as out of place as Gandalf casting Wish or Teleport or a Bolt of Change.

Shadowrun has 20 years of established Mythos. Part of what's presented is indeed very GitS but very little to do with the way the Shadowrun Sixth World works. Now if it was a Reboot, it could have been far more easily accepted. But it's not, it's a continuation of the story with a whole bunch of things done in the Rules part of the game that don't mesh with the setting material.

Also in GitS almost all the cyber hacking is Ghost Hacking, your consciousness is online, or your comm is or some such and then your actual systems get hacked via that link (choke point PAN that people have been talking about). It's rare that individual cyber systems are hooked up seperately. And Section 9 plus most of the other mil spec and covert gear is silly protected by uber firewalls and net security plus semi dedicated AIs (not to mention they can all CounterHack mentally because if their DNI internal computer systems, the Major can at very least) a lot of the same also applies in things like Appleseed and Bubblegum Crisis.

Cyber hacking can be made to so easily fit the Sixth World and it's a shame that the effort to do so has missed the mark.

Either way. Still excited about SR5 because I don't own an RPG I haven't had to put some house rules in on at one level or another and I like most of what I see. The bits I don't I can change because it's my game at my table (and I really don't care about "missions" ).

Appeal to Awesomeness is not a valid debate strategy. While the clip was, indeed awesome, it doesn't let you ask a loaded question with no actual option to say "I disagree with you" without implicitly agreeing with your bullshit about exiling ourselves from the internet.

No, I'm not confusing it. I'm looking at this as the same thing as having Google Glass. It follows your eye movements, or a simple voice command. Or, in the case of Shadowrun, there's a connection to your brain, like thought controlled devices have now. Only all the software is cloud-based, rather than in the device itself.

So, object A is connected to the Matrix through your commlink, and responds to your commands through any software running on the matrix, which is picked up by your commlink.

Sort of, 'your printer is connected to the internet through your computer, and runs on software found on the cloud, where all the drivers and such are, rather than taking up hard drive space'.

You? I like how you argue. Nice points, not really negative, admit there's some things you don't like, but you're polite about the whole thing, and accept other people might be perfectly fine with it (even if you disagree yourself).

And does Google Glass stop following your eye movements when you lose your wireless connection?

$10 says not.

And why can´t I simply connect my printer directly to my computer?

Especially when I am a decker with software 6 and logic 9? I understand that for the "pro SR5 online bonus" crowd the explanation with the totally awesome cloud processing power is a sanctioning explanation - but it seems that you forget that the same driver which is found and running on the cloud can be installed or reprammed or coded by a dedicated decker on his cyberdeck.

Or?

SYL

If the end of Storm Front is any sort of warning, not long at all.

Granted they are special cases, but it is the ultimate hack job really.

It can. That is what turning off wireless does.

With the wireless bonuses it is like the barbarian being offered the choice of having mind blank or auto failing will saves. Either he gets crazy rage power but flops around like a fish most of the time or he is the equivalent of an NPC class and is fit only to die for story effect.


And that's Celsius not Fahrenheit.

So ... don't play this game where you have to change certain things to make it like X, play this game where you have to change other things to make it like X? Lets throw an alternative in there, and say "Nova Praxis". I'd still rather play GitS SR.

Because the Neonet USB7.0 cables you need to connect that printer are 15F availability now in SR5 to ensure only corporation security forces can hardwire connect their electronics?

Just kidding (we hope, have to see what they are in the book. )

No, take a system ready for playing GitS, use the setting you want.
While you're on changing systems into each other, why don't you write to WotC to change their 5e into EP as well? That'd make about as much sense as turning SR into it.

Well, in some senses brainhacks have existed since Psychotrope, and, I suppose, even back to the original Echo Mirage team.

Where did the idea come from that the supercomputers of the 2070s would now be unable to flip an "on" switch without the assistance of the internet?

I keep seeing arguements that "oh, the devices won't be able to do all this super complex stuff on their own", when all but a handful of the "stuff" is flipping an on-off switch.



-k

There was. Now, there isn't. If it is connected to your commlink, the matrix initiates a connection that allows any device in the world to connect with it,bwhether you want it to or not. In short, the massive cloud of The Matrix is essentially a singularity that instinctively, unfailingly, and instantaneously hacks itself access to any wireless device that appears within range of a device it has already subverted.

In short, The Matrix is a leashed, omnipotent virus.

Because in this case, the software's on the cloud, where the corporations can control it and update it, so you've got the latest drivers, the latest patches, and so forth, without having to copy the data on each and every computer, and can make sure it isn't hacked, since nobody's going to have access to the full program. And you can't install the drivers onto your computer, if the corp doesn't let you get access to it.

But then I need to change the system to allow magic and dragons and elves and such. So, I can either play Shadowrun as-is, with all the cool GitS stuff, plus the Awakening, but you'd rather I played a different game system I don't know, and houserule a whole bunch of stuff in. Nice options. I'll stick with SR5, and enjoy myself instead.

DnD5 already allows magic and dragons and elves and such :ь
And EP has different metatypes (or rather, different bodies called "morphs" that your ego can inhabit, from swarms of robotic insects to superhumans engineered to be perfect at their task), magic (called asynch abilities) and great dragons (or rather, hyper-sentient AIs who play the same role in the setting). And you get all the cool GitS stuff without ruining SR for that.


As for wireless bonuses, come on, a pocket commlink can run a strong AI with full voice and video recognition, but it can't run the calculations needed to extend a baton? Seriously?

Hey that baton has to extend and then retract again.

Man, if I ever needed more reason to be concerned with the quality of people Catalyst has writing for SR5....


If this is the kind of 'logic' you use in writing supplements, man, I sure hope you aren't taking out any major loans banking on that paycheck.

Kudos from Me (only with less insulting Please ! I think some of the Writers really meant well)


Hough !
Medicineman

@Lasersight Online Bonus



This would qualify for the +1 Limit Bonus (If You're an expert you can get the best out of the Laserpointer)
but the +1 Dice Bonus should be the Base bonus(Matrix independant) like in SR4 If You See where the Bullet hits it Helps, It helps everybody, even a Beginner/Novice

HokaHey
Medicineman

You certainly could. You could print. You could not print from other computers without dealing with certain other-than-ideal solutions. You would not be able to print from mobile devices. In other words, for ditching wireless you DO LOSE some functionality.




... Wrong way around, based on the list you posted. A handful are "on-off" (and those are the ones that don't make sense as Matrix bonuses, though often they do make sense as bonuses for connection to the PAN - and notably, wires would in many cases not be at all practical), but most are certainly not.

To anyone complaining that cyberware being hackable is a security hole that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would be able to address:

Do you use a cell phone? Do you use the internet?

You're aware that all your communications are being monitored by the NSA this very minute, right? The NSA can even track your cell phone when it's off. They can get into your email and social networking accounts at will. Shouldn't you have "addressed" that, in the same way your characters should have "addressed" their every Matrix security vulnerability?

If you think your character is a special snowflake who can figure out a way to be magically immune to cyberware hacking in the Shadowrun universe, you're a utopian. And Shadowrun is a dystopian universe.

If anything, the current level of invasion of privacy we cope with in the present day, every day, will have expanded and metastasized in the Sixth World.

Try going "off the grid" IRL for a few weeks and see how easy it is to remain untraceable and have any semblance of a normal modern life. Then fast forward to 2070 where the no-privacy surveillance culture has had decades to grow and refine itself, and see how ridiculous you sound handwaving that your character can't be hacked for gamey reasons.

The tricks and loopholes that your characters used in 4th edition? That's the very reason the corporations came up with the new Matrix. They want to be able to get inside your commlink, your smartlink, your cyberarm, everything. Are you mad? Your characters are probably pretty mad about it too. But you know what, the corps did it anyway, and they didn't care one bit what you had to say about it. That's what megacorporations do.

Everyone who's butthurt about this should be channeling their anger in-game to their fight against the system. But you won't win. That's cyberpunk for you.

Or you know, I'll just continue with my 80s-retrofuture Shadowrun 3E. Saves me money, too. Or maybe, if I were to GM again, finally work out my GURPSrun idea. Because, frankly, expressing an attitude towards potential customers like in Neurosis' op doesn't entice me to part with my money. It just makes it more likely that I'll sit out SR5.

You're aware of how paranoid your point sounds, right?

At any event, my life and vocation do not depend on me being a cipher in the machine. I'm not a shadowrunner. On the other hand, my characters *are*, and their very survival depends on addressing every last security vulnerability.

First I should read more closely before I take part in a pole.
I though the question was about hacking in general. After seeing the video I would like to change my reply from awsome to lame. Thats ok if it is a long shot and you prepared the footage the target should be seeing or you are running a simulation etc. (but for that you should need time to set it up and processingpower to run it, a deck would not be enough)

The video is exactly what I hate so much about several premade adventures and about some novels. (Not exclusivly to shadowrun)
Something strikes me as cool, lets do it consistancy be damned.

@KarmaInferno


So corps now store parts of their software in the matrix as opposed to on the device. What are you going to do about it?
Your point would correspond to point 1).

Pirate the software, load it wholly onto the device, tell the device never to connect to the Matrix. If important updates come out, I'll do the same with them.

I think one of the flaws in the metaplot is that sometimes the megacorporations act in inexplicable accord. They are cutthroat, soulless corporations that wage continual covert warfare against one another. I don't see them colluding as much as they seem to do when it comes to things such as security protocols. I could see wireless evolving as them trying to one-up each other by offering extra functionality and features to customers (and having more access to them in the bargain), but I don't see them as a monolithic "the man" making a new matrix to keep the shadowrunners down (for one thing, most shadowrunners, whether they like it or not, are part of the system that some of them rail against, disposable pawns that most of the megas use against each other).

Well, there needs to be some actual, tangible incentive to having wireless on. Because let's face it, everyone and their uncle was skinlinking and metagaming their way out of being hacked, thus removing this facet from play almost entirely. In my opinion, viable combat hacking needs to be a part of Shadowrun, or else we have the 3e problem of the hacker/decker (god i hate this term...) showing up a day prior to the actual gaming session and getting the decking part done, and then sitting bored at the table during the gaming session. Therefore, I believe that giving hacker characters ways to contribute to encounters outside of hacking security systems is healthy for the game.

However, the current bonuses for wireless are really lackluster. I believe the main gripe with it is that it doesn't actual enhance you, but instead uses the baseline of older systems and downgrades non-wireless. E.g.:
SR4: Reaction Enhancers + Wired Reflexes stack (even if run by DNI with wireless off)
SR5: Reaction Enhancers + Wired Reflexes only stack when wireless enabled

So, instead of getting 120% performance with wireless, they opted to go with 100% performance wireless and 83% performance offline. Which, in practice, results in a net nerf to characters reliant on said gear.

I remember reading something about the RE/WR wireless combo being able to break the normal augmax limit, which would certainly count as 120% functionality.

It is unfortunate that they decided to simply reverse themselves with so many of those bonuses - if they wanted to remove the +dice bonuses, they really should have found something else for the wireless to do.

I've never understood the problems people seem to have or have had with SR3 Deckers. Tbh most of my players have always gone for the other archetypes when we've played with 3-4 players. But the two 7 player campaigns I ran, each of which ran weekly for at least 18months, had a Decker and neither had a problem with integration. I ran matrix combat alongside actual combat fine (just made all the turns the same length). Decking systems for leg work I mixed in around people doing other stuff (yes it was meant to functionally take "seconds" but keeping people involved kept the game going for everyone rather than narrow focussing for half an hour).

I do like the sound of the new matrix rules to keep life simple, but to me that just means easier prep and notation time as much as it means simpler system.

We've been over that several times, so how about the other way round for a change? Instead of vaguely preaching something about future technology and how awesome it might be, tell us what hypothetical future technology will make the this concept work for a) the telescoping baton and b) internal air tank.


Again, the other way round: If some people are so eager to have Neo in your game, houserule it in. It saves the rest of us some blunt trauma to our foreheads.

So, why can´t I use in SR anymore? Because, well, I am a decker/hacker with boosted Intelligence and a hardcore coder (Logic X, Software-Skill Y)

SYL

You don't get it, do you? The answer is not 'go play another game'. Shadowrun has a good mix of fantasy and cyberpunk. It allows me to look at things like transhumanism, while dealing with the conflict that comes naturally from dealing with the awakened age and the advancement of technology. There's no reason for me to go to another game for this.



You're missing the point. The entire idea behind this kind of thing is control. The corporation can sell hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of items, keep all the software on their own servers, and keep track of how often, when, and where the items are being used. They only need to patch one thing, and everyone gets the update automatically - without having to download the patch. Because the corporations keep control of the software, nobody can hack or modify of the software.

Or, as my friend says: how to control the software - never let anybody have a full copy of it.

Yes, your character's vocation depends on being a cipher. The corporations aren't making their gear for people to be a cipher. This is a point of contention - in the game. I'm perfectly cool with this. Much like real life - if you want to be a cipher in real life, it takes work, and society (and communications) isn't geared to you being a cipher.

Your character's going to need to work to be a cipher. This isn't a bad thing.