So, what does the Face do again?

Let me back up a bit, because I was a bit confused/emotional posting in the heat of the moment above and as NATH pointed out some shit I said was FACTUALLY INACCURATE. I don't think it's fair or called for to say, unilaterally, that I don't understand the Matrix rules, but the Matrix be confusing, and I think anyone can potentially get confused. Still, not my proudest moment!

"These benefits only apply when the item's wireless mode is on. Your Ares Alpha can't adjust for the wind direction and speed if it can't download the up-to-the-second weather conditions, and your Eurocar Westwind 3000 doesn't know the status of the next three traffic lights if it's not connected to GridGuide. A wireless device is always vulnerable to subversion and control by a hacker within wireless handshake range. You can defend your gear with a good commlink and a personal area network. Even better, defending against threats from the Matrix is part of your team hacker's job. If she's not available, you might occasionally want to turn wireless off."

I wrote this text, I recognize my examples there for the Ares Alpha. So clearly *at some point* I knew that Wireless bonuses required Matrix functionality. In hindsight, it appears they DO require Matrix functionality according to the 5E RAW. In other words...

"My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal."

I was completely fucking wrong here. My bad!

That said, I think that MOST items SHOULD still receive wireless bonuses with PAN, not Matrix, connectivity. What's important to me is that wireless bonuses encourage device hackability, not that they require MATRIX connectivity perse. But of course, and I've said this before...my ideal version of Shadowrun is not what SR5 is. SR5 is a collaborative effort between many, many, many cooks. So yes, it seems that in RAW, ALL Wireless Bonuses DO require Matrix connectivity. Which is...an idea I was once cognizant of, clearly, but not one I am currently defending.

I want everything to be hackable, I don't necessarily want everything to be hackable over the Matrix from your cozy apartment with complete impunity and freedom from reprisal. Ideally, I want wireless hacking to have approximately the same range of engagement of a sniper rifle, unless something is (with good reason) connected to the Matrix, and which point it becomes more comparable to astral travel. Again, what I want has no bearing on what actually IS in SR5 because I am not its sole/chief author.

My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal.

Hm. Now, that makes me wonder why Smartguns and Vision Enhancement are supposed to work better with PAN access? I get how it would work with Matrix access, but I'd be curious to know your explanation for the function through PAN access.

And for what it's worth, I think much of what lead to people's response to the bonuses is the fact that so many of them re-enable old functionality, instead of adding something that is new to the player.

So your whole 'fuck you if you don't like wireless bonuses' screed is based on a faulty understanding of the rules as written at base?


Wow. Just wow. High quality writing, there.

No, RHat, most of the problems were the data trail that was left behind when the Shadowrunners did their "foul deeds".

Except that the in-game effects that you're trying to rationalize were generated by someone who has explicitly stated that he did not actually understand how the game mechanic he was writing about worked.

And this engineer wonders what sort of Olympian, why one guy is in a chair, and fifteen different questions about the metrics of the race.

Hahaha. I don't have to rationalize anything. I can say that the answer depends on implementation 'til I'm blue in the face, and when I run out of oxygen, Alan Turing will rise up out of his grave and continue to say it for me.

Pretty sure Turing would have a few other things to say if he popped out of his grave.

Pretty sure Turing would have a few other things to say if he popped out of his grave.

Because in addition to raw power, there's many other issues such as how many threads you can throw around

The whole "can't hack me because signal range is only 3m" thing only works if there's nothing wireless inside that radius, which will almost never happen.

I feel pretty bad that they're so spectacularly hated/reviled.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37734424.jpg

PS: But don't take it too personal. You had to shill an idea which was tried before and universally shot down, that was a forlon hope job to start with...

Wireless Bonuses were not my idea, but I was the guy who was told to seed the gear chapter with them. So I did so. I feel pretty bad that they're so spectacularly hated/reviled.

"My understanding of SR5 was that Wireless bonuses did not require MATRIX Connectivity, only PAN connectivity. I could be wrong, but when I wrote MOST (not all) of the Wireless bonuses and made MOST but not all of the comments I have made about them, it was this understanding I had in mind. So in the pejoratively stupid "Extendable Baton" example, there is no wireless signal ping-ponging through some Matrix cloud protocol. Your thought directly transmits a wireless signal to the baton, done deal."

I was completely fucking wrong here. My bad!

That said, I think that MOST items SHOULD still receive wireless bonuses with PAN, not Matrix, connectivity. What's important to me is that wireless bonuses encourage device hackability, not that they require MATRIX connectivity perse. But of course, and I've said this before...my ideal version of Shadowrun is not what SR5 is. SR5 is a collaborative effort between many, many, many cooks. So yes, it seems that in RAW, ALL Wireless Bonuses DO require Matrix connectivity. Which is...an idea I was once cognizant of, clearly, but not one I am currently defending.

I want everything to be hackable, I don't necessarily want everything to be hackable over the Matrix from your cozy apartment with complete impunity and freedom from reprisal. Ideally, I want wireless hacking to have approximately the same range of engagement of a sniper rifle, unless something is (with good reason) connected to the Matrix, and which point it becomes more comparable to astral travel. Again, what I want has no bearing on what actually IS in SR5 because I am not its sole/chief author.

False: Logic 5 and Cerebral Booster level 2 gives you logic 7... and (based on SR4) available at character gen.

More sensible Matrix boni would be all that is needed to fix this, but that looks stongly like houserule territorry.

Cerebral Booster is confirmed in, although it did double in cost (approx.) Getting that Cerebral Booster may require a significant deck downgrade, so you need to make more choices here.

(Personally my formerly paralyzed decker is going in with a 49,500 deck for missions, so I'm ready to take a big beating.)

Well, no. To be blunt, he didn't have to shill for it, just write for it.

Except that the in-game effects that you're trying to rationalize were generated by someone who has explicitly stated that he did not actually understand how the game mechanic he was writing about worked.

I'm curious whether we will see an errata of this, since the item specific bonuses were generated based on something other than the final iteration of the rules. There's no harm in the company updating them to address this failure of the editorial process.

So your whole 'fuck you if you don't like wireless bonuses' screed is based on a faulty understanding of the rules as written at base?

Well, no. To be blunt, he didn't have to shill for it, just write for it.

Coming here to shill for if might have been a poor plan.

Neurosis, thank you for being straight with us.

Do you know if this is how the editors and managers envisioned the system working as well? Is there any possibility for an errata?

Is there any chance of issuing an errata changing some of the "Matrix bonuses" to "Wireless bonuses" that only require PAN access? Or at least an "unofficial errata" as Patrick has done, listing which items should only require PAN connectivity for those of us who would like to houserule it to be in line with RAI?

The best part about good old Shadowtech was that it was written by someone who actually knew their shit.

False. To reiterate, momentary lapse in understanding was after-the-fact. When I was writing about it, I did in fact understand it. But several months have transpired in the interrim.

Once more, no.

While writing the wireless bonuses, I understood they required Matrix Connectivity.

While discussing them here, I boneheadedly forgot that.

But (fortunately, unfortunately, for good or ill, come what may) Matrix Connectivity was the original intention of the rules.

Probably not, UmaroVI, sorry. You can houserule it whatever way you want but just because I'm a screw up and said the wrong thing on an internet forum doesn't mean the Powers That Be are likely to change the rules. : /

Probably not, UmaroVI, sorry. You can houserule it whatever way you want but just because I'm a screw up and said the wrong thing on an internet forum doesn't mean the Powers That Be are likely to change the rules. : /

Sure there is. We raise hell and flood their mailboxes with how much we DO NOT LIKE THEM. and they will change.

I can say that the answer depends on implementation...

Though, I'm reminded of something I read once: In fiction, things must be realistic* to the reader. Reality, however, has no such limitation.

* As always, the mileage can vary depending on the reader.

I get the impression that they consider Dumpshock to be a small, discontented vocal minority. On the other hand, the hue and cry over the changes to direct combat spells in SR4A did result in it being changed to an optional rule. I hope they do fix it. There are many changes I dislike in the new edition, but the implementation of wireless "bonuses" is really the only deal-breaker for me.

As I mentioned in an (adult) writing panel last night, suspension of disbelief is a fickle thing.
There's one book I started reading not too long ago that I simply can't read any more because the main character--a dragon--flew through a narrow canyon and clipped his shoulder on a rock.

It's not impossible, but it puts too much work on me, the reader, in order to justify how that is possible.

Wireless bonuses like ex-ex reporting back the health of the target or extendable batons extending faster falls into the same category:
Is it possible it could work like this? Yes, sure, but it is too unrealistic to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

So, hold on a second. After a careful reading of the rules, one of the things that bothers me with hacking is how exceedingly easy it is to do it. It takes a semi-decent hacker a couple complex actions to disable or destroy the best hardware there is while taking only mild risk. You can sleaze your way through a top-secret device (rating 6) in 3 actions with reasonable success rate (remember, a good hacker has 15-18 dice to its actions, +edge if needed) and then reboot it or format it.

Doesn't it bother you that hackers can succeed at almost everything in almost no time right from chargen? That even high-security devices melt like butter in front of a hacker?

So, hold on a second. After a careful reading of the rules, one of the things that bothers me with hacking is how exceedingly easy it is to do it. It takes a semi-decent hacker a couple complex actions to disable or destroy the best hardware there is while taking only mild risk. You can sleaze your way through a top-secret device (rating 6) in 3 actions with reasonable success rate (remember, a good hacker has 15-18 dice to its actions, +edge if needed) and then reboot it or format it.

Doesn't it bother you that hackers can succeed at almost everything in almost no time right from chargen? That even high-security devices melt like butter in front of a hacker?

No. The one thing I hated about SR4 was how long it took to hack things on the fly. Everything was a boring extended test in the Matrix. It only served to slow down the pace of the game. While your Street Sam or Mage will finish combat in about two passes, the Hacker will still be working his techno-wizardry just because Matrix rules were designed to be a bottleneck in the action. And that's just straight up boring.

You rather overestimate the importance of forums like this. They're hilariously non-representative. It's one thing to take feedback from places like this and give it due consideration, but you do NOT look to forums like these for an accurate idea of how the playerbase at large feels.

No. The one thing I hated about SR4 was how long it took to hack things on the fly. Everything was a boring extended test in the Matrix. It only served to slow down the pace of the game. While your Street Sam or Mage will finish combat in about two passes, the Hacker will still be working his techno-wizardry just because Matrix rules were designed to be a bottleneck in the action. And that's just straight up boring.

Based on how fast combat generally moves, not really. 3 actions is enough for a decent street samurai to completely dismember most of an enemy squad. The hacker himself with a decent gun skill could probably do more damage with a rifle.

You rather overestimate the importance of forums like this. They're hilariously non-representative. It's one thing to take feedback from places like this and give it due consideration, but you do NOT look to forums like these for an accurate idea of how the playerbase at large feels.

When the wireless bonuses were actually written (by me), I clearly knew that they were designed to work with Matrix Connectivity (I can tell from the rules text). That was in February, though, and in the intervening time I momentarily forgot. To err is human. I am exceptionally human these days.

When we assembled our infrastructure, we went to the manufacturers of our equipment and proposed our network design. We spoke to their engineers who design network infrastructure support. They laughed and said the equipment doesn't work that way. It physically *can't* provide the logical support we required. They literally said it was impossible. We made it happen anyway.

I relate that to say this: I have no problems conceptually with any of the ideas presented. Yes, even the bonuses. (I admit some of the wireless bonuses do baffle me, but I'm willing to handwave that on the same premise of accepting the ones I do understand.) On too many occasions, including one that has provided my paycheck for almost 6 years, people have said "That's impossible, it doesn't and can't work that way", and yet it does.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying my understanding is greater than the understanding of anyone else. (Or I know more than you [specifically or generally].) What I am saying is, advances in technology may give us ways to do things we haven't imagined because our current understanding of science and technology says such a thing impossible.

Yes, we are so discontented with Shadowrun that we talk about it obsessively to the tune of 1,238,604 posts (at the time of this writing).

To be fair, a number of people complaining about the Matrix bonuses are not saying they're impossible to obtain. For them, it's quite the opposite. They're actually saying they should be obtainable without the need for a Matrix access, rather than with it.

Most of which are circlejerks and side arguements.

1.) Faster resolution does not necessitate higher chances of success
2.) The problem with hacking at combat speed is that stuff outside combat happens at the same timescale. The hacker can screw with your eyes in two Combat Turns? Well, that means the hacker sitting next to Joe Wageslave in the cafe just needs six seconds for Joe's commlink, too. The hacker can wave his hands and make the fire door come crashing down on an unfortunate guard? In other words, the hacker can pwn MCT's security while driving past the facility, without even slowing down suspiciously.

Fast resolution OOC is nice and well, but if R6 devices cause little slowdown IC you open a huge can of graboids.

I've been GMing Shadowrun for over a decade and I can count the number of deckers/hackers I've had on one hand. The mechanics were never all that great for them, and NPCs filled the role. Nobody wants to show up an hour early to run through the Matrix, and then sit on their hands for the rest of the run.

To me, I think that giving hackers something to do in combat is a good move, even if it imbalances the field for cyber sammies.

Storyline wise, the disadvantage makes sense to me. I've always viewed cybered out characters as guys who gave up a ton to be a runner in the first place. They don't have the natural magical ability that characterizes the sixth world. So they called the surgeon and settled for the next best thing.

They should be a little bit behind the blazing fast hackers. They should be less powerful than the mojo slingers. It's the cost of admission for being mundane.

Playing a character who's just a touch slower, and a bit more vulnerable than the rest of the team can be a hell of a lot more fun than rocking a world-crushing ammo absorber, anyway.

My two cents. (and my first post! Cheers, Dumpshock!)

My two cents. (and my first post! Cheers, Dumpshock!)

They should be a little bit behind the blazing fast hackers.

Sure there is. We raise hell and flood their mailboxes with how much we DO NOT LIKE THEM. and they will change.

Yes, we are so discontented with Shadowrun that we talk about it obsessively to the tune of 1,238,604 posts (at the time of this writing).