That's a good answer, and would require (someone) to do a run on the corporation to get their hands on the full program, which may be integrated into other programs as well, just in case someone does try to do this. And once that's done, you'll be paying a pretty nuyen for the 'cracked' version. And then having to do a run every time there's a patch? That'd certainly be a PITA.

But yeah, viable. And I'm sure something like this is probably going to be in the 5E version of Unwired.

To be fair, no one in their right mind would GIVE us a loan based on our freelancer paychecks....

Already did. You buy hardware. Software is 100% in corporation hands. You want to do something which requires software to operate, you need to be connected to the corporation's computers. So, baton. If you're not connected, you have to manually unlock your baton. If you're connected, you can think / look at specific part of GUI / voice command to unlock the baton. This protects the corporation's programs from being hacked and modded, allows them to keep track of user statistics, and allows them to do hotpatches to every purchased item in a single sweep.

There are things right now that do this. So this isn't really a stretch.

It is huge stretch when the corp do that retroactivly to gear that was sold years ago.
I quess they finally cracked how to time travel.

Actually they aren't and can't.

The current news item you're referring to does not give the NSA that much data nor does it target everyone.

If that were true my tripod would be completely be unable to deploy without internet access. Not just operate slower.

As it is, I push a button and it deploys with a complex action. I turn on the matrix antenna and it deploys with a free action.

Hell, a motorized tripod shouldn't need any electronics at all. And putting electronics in wouldn't make the motor operate any faster or slower.

Only about a third of the listed bonuses do anything that would require significant processing or external data access. The rest are either "needs remote connection", "needs wireless energy but doesen't actually use it to communicate", or "turns on faster".

The whole 'distributed processing' idea isn't a bad one, but most of the listed bonuses would have no good reason to benefit from that.


-k

Wow, so in SR5, EVERYTHING is like the Simcity 5 debacle?

Hey, I feel you there. I'm a pastry chef, suffering for my art is pretty standard.

Even if it gave them all the data in the world, there literally isn't enough processing power in the world to correlate it in real-time.

This is the thing that makes me dislike the whole 'cloud' concept of why cyberware needs to be online most. If GOD can clearly afford (and fit into a reasonable area, as in less than several square miles of server farm) the nigh-impossible levels of processing required to correlate the entire matrix in order to respond to real time threats, then clearly there's no reason your cyberware can't have enough processing power onboard to do what it is designed to do.

As long as I just deposit the checks and don't make the mistake of calculating the per-word rate that a couple of these projects bring in, I can probably stay marginally sane.

Marginally.

Or, they simply no longer support the older models. You know, the stuff that ran on the old Matrix? So they're a bit buggy, or don't quite work as well as they could, since they don't communicate with the new drivers and software as well.

Well, then it should run as usual. Because it was not buggy one year ago.

So what is it? Retroactive redesign of the entire technological system, that DNI is incredible slow and wifi incredible fast or that smartlink was always giving +2 limit and never made it easier to hit something? Or an ingame update which means there are old items (who still continue to work) and new matrix online items? You can´t have both offline reaction enhancers working with offline wired reflexes or not working together while being offline.

SYL

Cyberware (with a few reasonable exceptions) DIDN'T run on the old Matrix. That is the point. 2050-2070 a cyberspur didn't connect to the Matrix at all and was powered by bio-energy. Now in 2070 to even control the spur in your own body you need a matrix connection and power from the matrix for it. The action mechanic didn't change between editions, the gear simply got worse to support a new ham-fisted game mechanic.

I know some of you are really invested in trying to have this stuff make sense, but sometimes it doesn't and you need to just decide to play the game rather than totally crack what little suspension of disbelief there is in some of the changes.

Because the "thing" on the baton which receives the commands from the corp server is not software? Nope, you have just replace software which receives commands with software which receives commands, no advantage there

And what exactly stops my hacker from spoofing commands from the corp server to get that functionality without the corp server?

To an extend you're confusing the cyber implant "spur" with it's not implanted version which could be extracted via DNI in SR4 just as if it were cyber and now suddenly requires matrix access.
It's still a far fetch of course.

Um, it isn't paranoid if it's the truth. Do you even read the news?

Apples



Oranges

Shinxy, your argument is so apples and oranges that it beggars the imagination. If, in real life, I had access to Shadowrun level cyberware I would most certainly burned out the wifi. I would spend the extra money to get a datajack so if I need to do a firmware update I can do it via a wire.

Any sane 'Runner would TURN. OFF. THE. WIRELESS! Why would they want to have someone hack their cyberware? I mean please tell me one good reason to have your cybereyes wirelessly broadcasting. Before you say tacnet, a tacnet is run on your commlink and your commlink is your PAN.

And they retconned things to say that it's always worked like that.

I'm ok with retcons when the retcons make sense, but this one just blows my mind.

(If the new rules were actually any good then the retcon would be OK).

Yes, many sources. Including reputable ones which show that the NSA is not GOD.

At any event, the point is that shadowrunners, whose very existence is based on anonymity, would hit every trick when it comes to staying below the radar.

You mean with all the deckers out there, there are not multiple Warz groups going out and reverse engineering the software?
Or technomacers going deep in to the resonance realms to find a clean copy of the source code?
Or the military/rescue workers demanding the Corp provide the source code because on the battlefield/or in the middle of a natural disaster you can't connect to the Matrix?
Or just someone that wants to be ready for the next Matrix Crash?

Let alone a large body of older "public domain" software that while not SOTA (say max rating is 4) has been scrubbed clean for years and is a fraction of the price of the latest Corp software?

If there is a large enough programmer/decker community to provide deckers the information they need to create their highly illegal decks then there will just as large a body creating pirated and public domain software.

I mean look how long it takes for a cracked version of the latest game patch to show up today.

There was a clear reason Dikote got retconed out.
And I always figured that it just became the new standard (Now with the new Dikote!).

Plus in SR4, melee was changed enough (no counterattack) that they should have just left it in.

This just leaves a gaping hole where the DNI link used to be.

oi, low blow! *snickers*

Nope... No Cellphones, No Smartphones, No Google Glass, No Tablets, No Nook, etc.
I DO use Internet, but only on One of my 4 PC's, and only for entertainment (Dumpshock mostly).

You know the upside to that? No worries about Viruses or being hacked, ever... Big Win in my book.

But you have yet to tell us why the Baton Actually NEEDS software to operate...

The point is that they should not NEED new drivers to work. The ones they already have work just fine.

It doesn't. It has a button or lever or flipout that takes an action to actuate. Or you can hook it up to your wireless and think it open as a free action.

These appear to be benefits because the old option was just to burn an action.

And yet, SOMEHOW, a Pan connection just does not suffice... I call BS. *shrug*

My actual hope is that skinlink makes a reappearance as a bioimplant (to improve the data throughput of the skin) but be vulnerable to directed jamming or electric shocks. They would make individual gear untargetable but the commlink would remain a security issue.

People without implants should get no such link and be forced to run wireless with all its issues.

What? A PAN suffices, but a PAN is vulnerable.

Vulnerable only if the PAN has a Matrix connection. Or the hacker is right on top of you in mutual signal range.

His point, I think, is that if he is commanding it with his mind the Matrix shouldn't be required, just a connection between his mind and the baton. Whether that connection be a cable or a PAN or whatever.


-k

Shinxy, please don't drag this discussion further down to a personal level. It's the best, in general, to stay within the Shadowrun context.

Bye
Thanee

No they retconned to say SR4 always worked like that... but they forget Shadowrun has more than an 8 year history. There was no "Wireless Matrix" for these devices to run on when they existed in the 2050s and 2060s unless they're retconning the entire history of the Matrix.

Also, I wouldn't say there is ANY problem with the new rules that I've seen so far. It is the way it is specifically applied to all cyberware with a blanket. It could easily be fixed with a cybertech book which provides alternate versions of these items like a cyberspur that costs a little more money but includes a DNI rather than wireless for control. I actually like this solution because it gives a wider variety of cyberware that actually makes a difference.

What part of "Didn't need matrix at all before SR5" do you not understand?
Seriously come on.

That would be total and utter waste of space in a book that really doesn't have any space to waste.
I would much rather have as much new pieces of gear as possible.

If I had to do a quick guess, off-the-cuff? Not much, except for the time and effort it takes to find out what the send-receive protocols are. For simple things (like, say, the stun baton), that would be simple. For something like the recharging of certain pieces of 'ware? That might be a lot tougher, since the remote recharger doesn't send juice without the proper protocols.

It isn't like the system's going to be flawless and unhackable. But the question of 'why isn't this like THIS', can be answered simply. And can shadowrunners hack it? I'd say 'usually, yes'. But I doubt that should be covered by the main rulebook.

Oh, I'm certain there are people doing this. No question.
But it takes time. And it takes money. And it wouldn't be 'normal'.

And again, I figure something like this would be in an expansion sourcebook.

Actually, if I were to take it one step further...
Going through security or checkpoints, I could see someone being scanned, to ensure that their goods aren't hacked. 'Please connect to the matrix for a brief scan - it's for your security'. I could see that.

Hmm, I think I'll use that in the near future...

Let me just say ... ~naw, forget it, who cares for physics anyways~



It already is hackable ... for every other purpose, by manipulating the very same protocols. That's the core principle behind the decker archetype.



And people reject these "simple" answers ...



Which again brings us back to design level and the resulting problem: The design goal of having combat hackable gear will get neutered once such options arise, therefore from a development standpoint such things must not become availible otherwise they'd have wasted valuable design and production time which could have been spent on other subjects.

The answer to wanting things SR does not give and is not supposed to give due to its genre is precisely going to play games in the genre you want.

That has worked so well historically. Besides, it's not like hackers can write their own soft - especially the kind of super-complex soft required to have a baton extend.


On a side note, is triangulation a lost art by 2075? I mean, when you have someone walk into a secure zone lit up like a new year tree with wireless transmission, detecting and pinpointing him is child's game.

He is of course referring to the tragic Baton Bashup of '68 when the Radical Ions scriptkiddie gang sold secondrate batons out of Prague utilizing their own gimped software, resulting in a series of accidents due to malfunctions in the extension/retraction software with injuries ranging from broken fingers and wrists to at least 3 cases of blunt force trauma to the groin region when local toughs carried the baton tucked in the front of their synthleather jeans.

Someone mentioned that skinlink will be back in later book, but in a changed form so it doesn't entirely remove the hack factor, but no specifics (ie reduces range, increases defense, etc)

You're now officially my hero.

actually, as things are right now, no, a PAN seems to not be enough . .

Seriously? Who are you to judge? For me it would sell the book (or at least to my players) and probably wouldn't need to take up more than two pages.

A PAN does NOT suffice, you MUST BE CONNECTED TO THE MATRIX. I still call BS.

So let me get this strait.

Matrix--as in the WHOLE internet--is required to extend a baton faster?

A connection to the software is required. And that's in the Matrix.

You forgot that you can already hack pacemakers and some other electronics we already put inside the human body



Well pen-registers sorta are more art than science. Its only a child's game in the movies... I'm assuming your talking about cell phone triangulation ie pen-register which works off the two ID keys every cellular device has and you can "track" it as leaves signal range of one tower and hits the signal range of a new tower. Its not like sonar giving your an exact reading its more like Tarzan swinging from vine to vine.



See above for cell phones, for internet the root servers are run by the US so that is not surprising. Also I wouldn't use the word monitoring, that implies actively looking its more like recording, and frankly this happens on its own every time you hit a server, switch, router, etc. Your ISP is recording everything you do for a limited period of time which is why we have things like SSL and other encryption technologies. The news with the NSA was how long they were keeping the information for, not that it happens. Which still doesn't mean someone cant get my passwords it just means it takes longer. Security is all about being obfuscated enough that your not worth the time and effort to bother caring about whats in your TCP/IP packets. If your cell phone is actually off, it cant be tracked, but most smart phones don't actually turn off when your turn them off. Its more like they go to sleep when you turn them off. As for the email and social networking accounts, this is really complicated and has to do with hash keys, court orders, the company policy and other fun. I'm not sure I can go into that in any general way easily so I'm sure I'd break some form I signed once upon a time going into any specifics. They aren't hacking your account to get it though they just ask google, yahoo, whomever to hand over your mail.

I'm talking about radio signal triangulation. You only need two scanning antennas to pinpoint the source of any known signal: for an elementary case with amplitude method, just scan the ether until you find the direction where the signal you're looking for is maximal. Since you have two points of location, draw a line from each in the direction of the maximum, and there you have your target. Easy as pie. Sure, in real urban environment it gets a little bit more complex, but minding that such a system can be easily set up in advance, and local conditions accounted for - again, child's play.
Same goes for cell phones, actually, except it's easier to use the delay method there - estimate the time it takes for a signal to arrive at the tower, and the difference between time it takes to arrive at other towers in the vicinity - and there is your target, again, clear and simple.
The only additional issue in SR would be the fact that there are lots of wireless-enabled devices around, but as long as their network protocols allow for device recognition, the triangulation system can use those to pick the needed targets just as well.

Well ,I got good News
(Also for Tycho )


The BS is not as big as You think it is
to my understandiing that means you can still use Your PAN (and Your Comlink with Agents, strong Encryption,etc)to access the Matrix and your gadgets (Smartlink,etc) don't need to be connected ...."Bareskinned"(Is that the Right word for no protection & helpless ? )

HeyaHeyaHeyaJa
Medicineman

They would have to or you would risk sending the wrong information to the device.

I would assume, if that were actually how it worked, someone would have stepped up and said so already. Of course, I should know better than to assume.