So, why can´t I use in SR anymore? Because, well, I am a decker/hacker with boosted Intelligence and a hardcore coder (Logic X, Software-Skill Y)

SYL

Batou takes on the Yakuza

Neurosis' choice reminded me of this clip. I'd arguably consider it a more relevant portion of the GitS setting when discussing SR.

It also happens to be the one I point to when people say GitS is too post-cyberpunk for cyberpunk games, but that's another topic.

Wires subjected to the sort of motion that such wires would are not going to tend to stay plugged in at all times. So for things where you cannot afford to have to worry about the connection coming loose, like chem seals or combat equipment, wires become impractical.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that wires never come out of their jack? Happens to me all the damn time with anything I need to keep plugged in while it's on my person - like headphones, for example, if the cable gets snagged on something or there isn't enough slack.

I'm just saying - the "wire everything" route isn't as simple as advertised.

It is a good point, but it also does not mean you have a meter of cable running from smartgun to temple. The better route would be to have the majority of the wire running below the skin with a jack port near the wrist or using an induction pad so it makes contact when held. You would still have a cord/contact point that could be attacked/removed, but less of it.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that wires never come out of their jack? Happens to me all the damn time with anything I need to keep plugged in while it's on my person - like headphones, for example, if the cable gets snagged on something or there isn't enough slack.

I'm just saying - the "wire everything" route isn't as simple as advertised.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that wires never come out of their jack? Happens to me all the damn time with anything I need to keep plugged in while it's on my person - like headphones, for example, if the cable gets snagged on something or there isn't enough slack.

The fact you can't handle cables in your devices doesn't mean all of us can't.
I never have any problems with my head phone cables as i route them inside my clothes.

I have never done this before, but there is a first time for everything. Someone is wrong on the internet nerd rage GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I have a terrible confession to make. I was one of the writers of Shadowrun 5th Edition. Actually, that in and of itself isn't the terrible confession, but I can see why you'd think so with some of the incendiary threads floating around here. The terrible confession is...I'm not sure I like SR5 all that much. I'm not sure I'd want to play it over SR4. Which is doubly fucked because I wrote the first full length adventure for SR5, I've been thinking about/working on SR5 since like 2011, my career progress/job security depends on working on sourcebooks and supplements for SR5, I get paychecks from a company whose revenue stream comes from selling SR5, and so on. But still, nothing about being a Catalyst Freelancer requires me to blindly champion SR5 or sing its praises; I can't lie about the fact that I have serious issues about SR5. I can't get into what those issues are, because that gets way too much into "how the sausage is made" and even now that the book is out, would probably violate NDA.

But one of the most common complaints I've seen people make about SR5, one of the things that some people are up in arms about, is just so overwhelmingly stupid that I can't remain silent about it. There are plenty of at least subjectively valid reasons to dislike SR5...I doubt even any one of the people who wrote it was 100% satisfied with the game, such is the nature of collaborative process...but complaining about the fact that cyberware can be hacked is completely idiotic. And I can address that without even cracking open an SR5 rulebook and getting into the nitty gritty rules on just how goddamn difficult and expensive it is for a decker to even attempt to hack someone's wireless enable cyberware (spoiler: it's way too expensive, and really goddamn hard).

First, before I go any further, I want you all to watch this video. Then, when I'm done making all my counter-arguments to common complaints I've seen, go back and watch this video again. Don't worry, it's under a minute.

SORRY PAL

Gut-check time. Was that...

A) SUPER FREAKING AWESOMSE!
B) Awesome
C) Pretty Cool
D) Laaaaaaaaaaaaame. (If you select this option, get off the internet, you can't be reasoned with.)

You see the primary reason I am baffled by the hue and cry about hacking cyberware is that HACKING CYBERWARE IS FUCKING COOL. It lets your PCs do what Batou just did to that Umibozu commando. And that's fucking awesome. It gives "Combat Hackers" something to hack during combat! Here are the secondary reasons that complaining about cyberware being hackable is stupid. And yes, as the list goes on, liberal use is made of Straw Man arguments (deal; these straw men are based on actual things actual people have actually said).

1) This is not a new thing. Cyberware was hackable in 4th Edition.

Ok....deep breath. Yes, you could switch your cyberware to DNI only, and skinlink everything, and effectively, in Frank Trollman terminology, "set hacking to off". But in casual, non-Missions play, not everyone did this. At my table, we certainly didn't do this. At my table, PCs could hack NPCs, NPCs could hack PCs, and the world went on. Hacking someone's gear was just another avenue of attack and another avenue to defend, like guns and magic. The SR4(A) rules don't explicitly state that cyberware can or cannot be hacked; there are certainly no "wireless bonuses", but I went with the default assumption that yes, Cyberware is a Device, has a Device Rating like anything else, and I could see plenty of in-universe reasons why it should be "always on". Hell, look at the XBone, and that's just a generation away from happening for real, let alone 2075. Think about how often your phone or your XBox or your computer's software needs to install updates. Almost daily, right? Cyberware is the same way, and needs to install firmware packages to stay current and stay relevant; the easiest solution to keeping the firmware up to date would be having it "always online". The security considerations of that are secondary...because no one is supposed to have the tools/talent to be able to hack cyberware anyway!

At my table, you could totally have something like what happened in that video occur in actual play.

That was the rational in my SR4 game. And outside of SR Missions...I am pretty sure that some other people were already running SR4 games where hacking cyberware as a thing you could do!

2) "Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! Hacking cyberware is not realistic! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a time traveling computer science major FROM THE FUTURE.

In that case, elves dragons wizards vampires bug spirits and shape-changing fox people would like to have A FUCKING WORD WITH YOU about "REALISM".

2) "Wahhhhhhhhh! Corporations wouldn't make and sell cyberware that could potentially be hacked! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

This is such a ridiculous and laughable argument it makes me seethe with rage. Because phone companies wouldn't make and sell smartphones that could be cracked, right? Because game companies wouldn't make and sell PS3s that could be cracked, hacked, and 'sploited, right? Because corporations are made of people that are infallible and never make mistakes, right? Because megacorporations--especially in Shadowrun--care WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more about the safety and security of their customers than the bottom line and making a quick buck? Oh, oh wait...oh yeah.

NONE OF THAT IS TRUE.

Megacorporations don't give a SHIT about the safety and security of their customers. You'll buy it because it's like the last one, only better. Then when shit does get hacks'd, they'll spin things to make them look like big damn heroes for trying to catch the hackers/closing the loophole.

And don't forget they make the 'warez and tools that are used for hacking shit...and for anti-hacking defense. So...cha-ching!

3) "Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! No one would ever install cyberware that could be hacked! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

What. The. Fuck. This. Is. Shadowrun. Have you READ Shadowrun, at all? Have you read ANY of the classic SR Novels, at all? They tell the story of street criminals who are responsible members of society that never do anything short-sighted for a quick boost in power that they might one day come to regre---oh, oh wait.

Yeah, that's right, I remember now. In the Shadowrun fiction, people install Cyberware even though it GIVES THEM FUCKING CANCER. People install wired reflexes even though it gradually breaks down over time and stops working and gives them EPILEPSY FOR LIFE! Why? Because they WANT TO BE FASTER, AND DAMN THE CONSEQUENCES. The fact that someone some day might haxor it PALES in comparison to the fact that it could riddle your body with tumors or leave you a helpless twitching mass of SEIZURES, and those things literally don't stop people from installing all the cyberware they can afford.

4) "Wahhhh! Wahhhh! I JUST DON'T LIKE cyberware being hacked! It's icky! Wahhhhh!"

SHUT UP! WATCH THE VIDEO AGAIN!

And I'm done.

*drops mike, feedback squeals, lurches drunkenly off stage and back into obscurity*

Would that not mean a datajack for each connection point? Following along the lines of "not as simple as advertised"? Fulfilling the requirement that the defense comes at a cost? And, notably, being a rather poor option for adepts?

to my understandiing that means you can still use Your PAN (and Your Comlink with Agents, strong Encryption,etc)to access the Matrix and your gadgets (Smartlink,etc) don't need to be connected ...."Bareskinned"(Is that the Right word for no protection & helpless ? )

It isn't like the system's going to be flawless and unhackable. But the question of 'why isn't this like THIS', can be answered simply. And can shadowrunners hack it? I'd say 'usually, yes'. But I doubt that should be covered by the main rulebook.

That's pretty much the main difference between SR and GitS. In SR we battle it out for each and every hack, in GitS most of the on the fly hacks are done almost as a skill roll or similar as it basically comes down to who has the better warez( ie Batou and them are probably running mil spec software that just chews through generally anything the opposition may have except for a few special boss types) , only occasionally is there a prolonged matrix fight when HQ has to devote some of the secretary drones to piling onto whatever it is.

It does make the hacking fast and furious vs the NPCs, but if this was used against the players in the same manner there would be howling.

That's pretty much the main difference between SR and GitS. In SR we battle it out for each and every hack, in GitS most of the on the fly hacks are done almost as a skill roll or similar as it basically comes down to who has the better warez( ie Batou and them are probably running mil spec software that just chews through generally anything the opposition may have except for a few special boss types) , only occasionally is there a prolonged matrix fight when HQ has to devote some of the secretary drones to piling onto whatever it is.

It does make the hacking fast and furious vs the NPCs, but if this was used against the players in the same manner there would be howling.

In Shadowrun, you play street punks. you play people who are lowest mooks in GitS.

A connection to the software is required. And that's in the Matrix.

I have never, ever, ever played a street punk in Shadowrun.

The one thing I can say about Shadowrun - you can't make an assumption about what kind of game is 'normal' for Shadowrun.

There should be an ingame justification, why runners can even exist and survive.
SYL

There is... deniable assets

In a Ghost in the shell world, deniable assets can only be deniable through active eradication, like from an agency or a large corporation. So long for independent assets like Shadowrunners.

I am all for internal connection BUT THEY SHOULD COME AT A COST.

Anyhow: But saying I run a wire from my foot up to my head and pay nothing for it, is just cheasy.
Lets say installing a wire costs +100 nuyen and 0.03 per zone it runs through (Arms, Legs, abdomen, Chest, head). Cyberlimbs get essence free wirering in their zone (but hooking up a food to your commlink in the head would still cost 400 nuyen and 0.12 essence).
Every normal implant can only have one connection.
Datajacks can have 4 (one external and three internal) and internal comlinks can have 10.

Of course you can. You play a criminal (morally and/or legally) and you try to survice. Building up the perfect GOD surveillance / police state is not really in the interest of shadowrunners (as ingame characters) and Shadowrun (offgame as Game). There should be an ingame justification, why runners can even exist and survive.

SYL

There is... deniable assets

More or less what SR3 had. And like much else from back then, at first glance it was cool to have mechanics for it, until you actually had to do the bookkeeping...

The shifter isn't one for doing criminal activities at all, the driver does them when he has to,

I'm sorry. What? If the software is on the matrix, then how does it function without the matrix, and two, what software is it running in order to connect to the software?

Then he is a criminal. Ask your local judge or police officer what the legal systems thinks of people who willful and with full knowledge of criminal activities support thiefs, murderers or terrorists, even while doing legal things like drivin.

SYL

Alternate campaigns are fine, but the setting's standard are neither furry simstars nor government agents. So don't think your campaign is the default setting, please.

So why do you do that?

In a Ghost in the shell world, deniable assets can only be deniable through active eradication, like from an agency or a large corporation. So long for independent assets like Shadowrunners.

even GitS has 'deniable assets'.

Then he is a criminal. Ask your local judge or police officer what the legal systems thinks of people who willful and with full knowledge of criminal activities support thiefs, murderers or terrorists, even while doing legal things like drivin.

SYL

Yes, because the Grid is fractured, hundreds of different organizations, countries, corps and individuals influence it, and there is no almighty GOD, corporate unification and handwave "it´s all in the cloud".

And yet, we are still playing runners, not GOD jardheads.

SYL

Being hired to deal with a toxic mage group that's trying to open a gate for sheddim to come in.
Being asked to aid in the investigation of the murder of a university professor.
Being asked to help protect a team filming a documentary.
Extricating a music star from Aztechnology - in a country the corp has no business being in - by a dragon from inside the same corp.

I'm pretty sure GitS has something akin to 'GOD', and I'm quite certain that GOD in Shadowrun isn't omniscient.

Having been a fan of GitS for a long time - even GitS has 'deniable assets'. People you tap to help with work that aren't connected to any agency. There's mercenaries and freelancers in GitS. I really enjoyed SAC and the rest of the expanded works, including the graphic novels.

Fortunately, he's not breaking any local laws - and neither is the Shadowrun team.

The Driver... Drives. He gets people around, and can operate any vehicle needed for these runs.

I'm pretty sure GitS has something akin to 'GOD', and I'm quite certain that GOD in Shadowrun isn't omniscient.

For you and your team: Legal licenses (for weapons, bodyguard, restricted equipment private investigator)? Legal or fake SIN? And kidnapping (according to the aztech law probably)?

I am quite sure that your Fox Shifter does not see himself as a criminal. The legal system would probably see it different. Then again, the terrorist is s freedom fighter.

SYL

There are agency-pet hackers and incorporated mercenaries and of course superhacker McGuffin (the major bad of seasons 1 and 3). There are no "shadowrunners", who are truely independent of the system. There are just people who game the system as much as they can (and usually end up badly).

Your alternative campaign setting is interesting but not the standard.

Your lack of understanding how your own legal system works is disturbing. In the real USA, he'd face prison time even if he was forced to drive criminals at gunpoint.

Wrong on both counts. GitS has only "demiGODs", local Matrix police; and Shadowrun GOD is as omniscient as the Matrix is.

KarmalInferno did
He cited this Passage from the SR5 BBB in the SHadowrun4.com Forum
(It just drowned in the Waves of Hate and disapointment)



http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11389.0



With a Dance above the Waves
Medicineman

So let me get this strait.

Matrix--as in the WHOLE internet--is required to extend a baton faster?

I am all for internal connection BUT THEY SHOULD COME AT A COST.
I am all for a skinlink option but they should come at a cost. The point is some of those boni would still need the matrix I guess.

2074 With matrix connection: your PAN is constantly sampling data from hundreds of sources, the adrenal levels in your blood, your heart rate, the sounds around you , your GPS position, what you posted on Facegrid last night and using massively distributed processing decides if you are drawing your baton to defend yourself, just want to put it in a drawer and get some sleep or (the one that really needs the processing power) you were just in a fight and now some Lone Star hoopkissers have shotguns trained on your head are asking you to drop your weapons before they turn your head into a canoe (free action faster than pulling a trigger it "just knows" if you want it out or not)