Platoon 2069. Fox Company Myself...

Oooohrah Marine...

Keep the Faith

Hey, what ever works for you.

But the Chinese symbol for trouble is two woman under one roof.

I was told by an Pakistan coworker that while a Muslim man in Pakistan may have more than one wife, only the very rich can afford it. By custom the husband must spend equal time and money on each wife. If he can't then one wife is enough. That means setting up separate households for each wife.

One example he told me was often given was that if a husband wanted to buy melons for his family, he could not just buy one melon for each of his wives and call that equal treatment. To truly treat them equally, he had to buy two melons, cut each melon in half and then give his wives half from each melon.

Makes you think what experiences produced that example.



I agree that what goes down on the streets and what is acceptable in the corp worlds will be fairly different.

At least once your start to get in to the middle ranks. Plus they would want to keep the Corporate enclave's a nice quiet and respectable place. Don't want anything to bring down productivity. It will depend on the individual Corporate culture with a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes with no concerns unless it becomes public.

Course I expect the Corps would be unlikely to recognize more than one spouse per employee just to cut down on benefits. And the goal would be to have both both of them productive employees for the corporation. That is what Corporate Daycare is for (and of course producing the next generation of loyal corporate drones!).

Also the Sinless will be driving the Street Culture. Even with every thing being equal, I think a young man is still going to take more risks then a young woman (if for no other reason then the young man is looking to impress the women). If the life expectancy of the young men is significantly lower than the women then you will have a serious imbalance of the sexes and historically an imbalance of the sexes is a major driver for Polygamy.

The Sinless have no social safety net to fall back on so family is all they are going to have. You hear talk of Orc Longhouses where it is one extended clan living under one roof. Not much of a stretch to believe that Orc street culture would be fairly accepting of multiple wives. A rediscovery of the "ancient" orc culture, but created for the same social needs. Perhaps even Levirate marriage (when a man marries his brother's window). Per Wiki the custom of a male relative marrying the widow of the deceased is or was known in societies including the Israelites, Punjabis, Jats, Huns (Chinese "Xiongnu", "Hsiong-nu", etc.), Mongols, and Tibetans. ).

Course birth control would be dirt cheap or given out for free even for the sinless.

I'm wondering what a hundred years of the internet would do for socials norms. I bet you could find people of similar tastes no matter what your Freak was. And if they ever did cure Aids, there will be a new age of Free love, that would make the 60's look like the Victorian age (awaken STD not with standing). Aid in Virtual sex using Simsense technology.....

Except for one thing, cndblank:

You Cannot Cure AIDS. Basically by definition for any virus, but AIDS in particular evolves very fast.

You may be able to vaccinate against it, but again: AIDS evolves fast. To cure it means you can wipe it out in the wild. We've done that IRL with only one virus, smallpox, and that took the better part of a century and a half if I recall.

---

The reality is that even where it's allowed, multiple marriage is uncommon. Being able to have even a second wife means you're seriously well-off.

The way I see it: A lot of the current acceptance of many alternative sexual lifestyles is probably a fad, like the alleged debauchery of Restoration England. Especially given the way everything's gotten weird in SR for the average person (who by every description in the canon is still rather freaked out by the events of the last 60 years, to say nothing of the last 20, in SR's timeframe), I have a creeping feeling that while the law may have changed to allow things it currently wouldn't, the social reality is that you would probably still be ostracized for practicing those things. That goes double for poorer classes of society, who tend to be a lot more conservative socially.

Unless all three of you work. Then it allows you all to survive on smaller paychecks than any of the three of you could individually. RL and the rules agree with me (see the section on sharing a lifestyle).

And did it by infecting everyone with cow pox (which had a known cure).

I stand corrected.

I believe that the current trend of increasing acceptance of fringe culture will continue. There is one major variable which was not present in previous times of widespread liberal culture (the 60's being the most recent example): the Internet. The ability to safely, easily, and anonymously find and contact people with similar interests, whatever those interests might be, has been a HUGE boon to people like me.

It revolutionized how people with unusual fetishes or other interests found partners, heavily augmenting the former norm of singles bars and local clubs with web sites devoted to finding people of like mind: Generic dating sites both free (OKCupid) and subscription (eHarmony), sites based on socialization as well as hooking up (such as Collarme and Fetlife), and so on. The Net is also wonderful for sites providing information, showing people that what they feel is NOT wrong and that there are others like them who share their interests, people who are wired like they are. These sites are so wonderful because they can be browsed anonymously, leading many who would be ashamed or embarrassed to ask about such things openly.

This also applies to other minority lifestyles, as well as belief systems and other things society as a whole might not yet accept. As a result of the availability of these resources, awareness of alternative culture has become more and more common, and many formerly fringe beliefs and behaviors have crept closer to the mainstream. I don't see this changing; the Internet has caused a population explosion within many alternative lifestyles, as well as facilitating networking between formerly insular local groups. This has led to better organization and a stronger political presence.

A hundred years ago, all but the most radical KNEW that black people were less intelligent than white. Now all but the most radical know just the opposite to be true. The masses swing back and forth between liberalism and conservatism, but the overall trend which I see, and which I believe will continue even into a dystopian future, is one where even conservative values will incorporate acceptance of things which today are anathema to them, as liberal values continue to push the envelope.

New issues and new organizations will come to light - the Humanis Policlub and Mothers of Metahumans come to mind - and old ones will just seem less important than they once did. As more people become accustomed to fringe behaviors and lifestyles, those behaviors and lifestyles will become less fringe and eventually be incorporated into the mainstream. This has always been the pattern in human events, but global communications have accelerated the process while at the same time leading to a more global culture.


You beat me to it - all 3 of us have separate incomes. This isn't as nice as it sounds, however, as all 3 incomes are well below poverty level (disability for 2 of us, parental support augmented by government relief in the case of my secondary), and my fiancé and I live separately from my secondary. In most cases, however, poly families are considerably better off financially than monogamous ones. Living expenses are significantly less per person the more people you house. This is partially thanks to the wonders of buying in bulk, and partly due to the fact that some expenses (such as heating and lighting) don't go up significantly when you add more people to a residence, and others (such as space rent), while they do go up significantly, still cost less overall per person as a family expands. Multiple adult incomes in a home do wonders for financial security.

... Well, it's not really a cure, but they've found that if they do a bone marrow transplant from one person who is immune to AIDS to one who is not, the bone marrow carries the immunity over as well. Short time later, the recipient is now immune.

Also, AIDS cannot survive in peppermint extract. Now, you can't really do a peppermint IV, but still.

nothing can survive in peppermint extract.

You really should check the Sprawl Survival Guide.

Oh, wait, that was retconned like HMHVV - now Herpes is an unstoppable plague. At least AIDS isn't anymore.

Well, it has been observed exactly once, so nobody knows if that therapy really works or it just happened. And of course finding a suitable bone marrow donor is hard enough, finding one who is alos immune to HIV is next to impossible...at least with Fifth World tech


Even easier, HIV cannot survive air contact

Any one know where "the rock touches the sky?"

I think that is symbolism for a type of place(maybe a holy place or something) rather than any one physical location.

Or maybe it is an symbol for some sort of symbol where it is a rock/mountain whatever touching the sky.

Thats what it seems like to me, more symbolism or a spiritual high/feeling that any sort of physical place

It can. It's the lack of nutrients that does it in. That's why if someone starts punching themselves in the face and getting the blood into their mouth, I suggest responding with a quick and brutal (blunt object) to the head - it's considered lethal force that they're using, so go for broke. Or at least that's the way it is here.

Someplace very high in elevation, such as a mountain, or comparatively high elevation to the area around it, like a mesa or plateau.

Or, very possibly, someplace where rock literally touches the sky, and nothing else, like an asteroid brushing against the atmosphere, or, more likely, an active volcano which spurts lava/chunks of rock into the air.

Viruses don't need nutrients, they are not even alive in the classical sense


In that case obviously not every part of a blood drop gets air contact, only the surface.

I often wondered about that one myself...

My only other guess would be somewhere that had been hit by a meteor. Crater Lake comes to mind, but I don't recall if its storyline had been resolved or not by the time of the Big D's will. Of course that would have worked better if it was touched rather than touches...Unless it is an area that regularly takes meteor strikes.

HIV, eh?

From what I understand, no one has ever been able to recreate the experiment Robert Gallo performed to "prove" the link between HIV and AIDS.
Furthermore, Gallo has been shown to have fraudulently edited his research to create a conclusion his data did not support. More documentation of Gallo's fraud.

So, yeah... shit is mad sketchy.
My guess is that it's just a convenient excuse for the WHO to ignore real concerns in Africa so that populations stay manageable, but I won't stick to my guns on just what evidence I've got.

Er, you do know that Crater Lake wasn't formed by a meteor hit... right? (Your statement makes it sound otherwise.) (For those of you wondering about Crater Lake, look for it to be featured in an upcoming product... hint hint)

Well, I do now...

That does bring up the possibility of volcanism though - eruptions throw up all kinds of rocks into the sky. The Great Ghost Dance was one of the seminal moments in the early awakening and caused eruptions throughout North America. Kinda makes you wonder.

Edit:
Come to think of it, Ehran the Scribe has a pad hidden near Mt Rainer (IIRC, could be the wrong volcano) that you visit at the end of Harlequin. I wonder if the other GD and IE have similar pads. Ehran was doing some pretty weird research in his place, including some experiments about the nature of magic and some experiments on a young dragon.

tease! ._.

I did! It's a caldera!

Meteor Crater (in AZ) on the other hand, was, and is a rather boring place to go visit (and the only reason we stopped was because I--and a few others--had to pee and it was the only exit for another 200 miles).

Jeeeez, my head just exploded from huge ammounts of bullshit. 100% pure, certified bullshit.

In poor rural non industrial societies yes.

In the United States, the rural areas are more conservative. Middle America also refers to the part of the country not on the east or west coast and Middle America is more conservative. The United States came from a very puritan tradition and you can still tell.

But the most conservatives in the US are going to be those in the middle class. The system is working for them and they have the most to lose.

For those so inclined among the rich, they can afford to hide their indiscretions (or at least not service them in their own backyards). For those so inclined among the poor, they have nothing to lose and just don't give a damn.

And even in the rural areas (what is left of them) there will be what was called poor white trash in the old South.

Or as the joke goes, some one must be buying all that beer you see in the grocery stores of the South no matter how much it is the Baptist heartland. And that goes double for Utah.

A lot of the rural conservativeness comes from being in an area where families have been in the same area for generations, and even if you are not related to someone, everyone still knows everyone else and everyone's business.

But most of the UCAS is going to be Urban. And has transient as people have become now following the work where ever it goes, it is only going to be worse in another 60 years.

That's the thing. The UCAS is described as super-urban.

Okay, around Boston-to-Washington, I get that. Out around Chicago, even. But Upper North Canada? The "empty counties" of the heartland? Even in Pennsylvania or upstate New York.

Not so much.

I could see tolerance - tolerance, mind you, does not equal acceptance, social approval, or anything remotely like that. It just indicates a willingness to forego beating you over the head.

Keep in mind that a lot of the UCAS's areas that are urban will have a *lot* of refugees from NAN turf. These people will suddenly stream into the cities with the attitudes developed wherever they grew up. Things will suddenly get a lot more purple-looking, let's put it that way.

Huh?

If you are referencing "where a rock meets the sky," I made some mention of a possibility in one of my drafts on a recent project. My comments didn't survive the Dev-Edit, but Ancient History may have put some notes in his section.

Some call it Insel Olchon, others Sagan Zaba...depends on which of the people you trust, the natives or the conquerors. Either way, PM me if you want my completely non-canonical explanation.

Lake Baikal?
PM sent.

Wasn't there mention of a floating island in Canon Shadowrun? O.o

no that's Avatar

Not that I recall, some of those in ED.

I think it was in DOTSW.
The Big D shedding some light on stuff i believe.
Basically, a floating island following the ley-lines.
More or less what the mythos of Atlantis was based on.
But of course, i can be wrong about this. Probably am.

Even if you are RE: canon, that's a nice idea. I might use that in one of my campaigns, unless it's already in one of the DotA modules - if it isn't, I might add it as a continuation of that storyline.

On a related note, to those of you who are familiar with the Dawn of the Artifacts modules: Could they be (reasonably easily) modified to give the Runners a choice of who to work for? I like the idea of being tempted by the Atlantean Foundation with a complete alternate storyline - possibly even playing both sides, like letting one side examine an artifact before giving it to the other, or even keeping an artifact which the players think might be more valuable in use than what they were offered to retrieve it.

yes, there are several factions working in DotA to give you a chance to change teams.

Is it written in, or will I have to modify the adventures?

You'd have to modify the adventure to run it for another group's agenda. However, I'd suggest reading *both* the released adventures before changing things - the Atlantean's have a hidden agenda, which begins to be revealed to the GM in Midnight.

However, there are several factions mentioned, and even factions-within-factions (ie, Mystic Crusaders working within the Atlantean Foundation). It would be fairly simple for an experienced GM to run the adventure from a different side.

You mean floating as in hovering in the air? And even moving around?

Is that where I got the idea for having a dragon meeting ground on a floating island on the Pacific? I thought I got it from canon, but couldn't think of where.

Refugees are going to have had every thing they know turned upside down on them.

The older ones might cling harder to their traditions, but the younger ones are going to be floating free.

Plus that was over two generations ago.

Finally while the UCAS is not really going to be one giant plex like something out of Judge Dredd, the clear majority of people are going to be urban and that will really change the political landscape.

NYC doesn't offer tolerance. What it offers is anonymity. This is a town in which people can keep 400 pound TIGERS in little apartments. And nobody cares as long at he doesn't make them notice it.

There won't be any 'tolerance' shown if your coworkers in Manhattan discover that you are RTL or a republican. But unless you go out of your way nobody will ever figure it out. They just won't care enough to notice.

I had a an NYC ex-cop talk about how his ESU raid team (10 cops wearing 'Police' marked heavy armor, carrying shotguns and SMGs, getting out of marked vehicles with overhead lights going), had to force their way through the crowds one morning. Everyone was all looking down and deliberately not noticing what was going on around them. They had to push people out of the way to get to their target.

Yes! Only for Dragons!

Probably ^^

Looks like dragons also have a taste for recreational pharmaceuticals, how else would one get that idea?

That's interesting, since I've read that they have successfully done this at least eight times, with the same results each time.

There have been several attempts to cure HIV with bone marrow transplants, but AFAIK there is only one case where no active HIV was found afterwards. Note that this is still different from a complete cure, the virus is most likely still hiding in several cells and if it ever happens to mutate and use a different receptor...
Also keep in mind that one third of all people who undergo a bone marrow transplantation die from complications.

I never called it a cure.

Most of the time when people refer to polygamy or polyamourous relationships they mean males with multiple female partners. This was a more natural conclusion in our prior history when women were largely disenfranchised and had less personal power than men. Over the last few centuries we've seen a significant shift in female power and income potential - I wonder if this will lead to more group marriages with multiple men per women or equal numbers of men and women in a plural marriage? I don't know if the stats on this have changed significantly over the last hundred years (or even if anyone has those stats), but how would you see this trend evolving over the next 60?

As such relationships are generally not recognized officially IRL, I doubt there are stats to work from.

There are some countries where various forms of polyamory are the norm. There aren't many, but I've personally seen that changing as public awareness grows. Of course, Seattle is one of the most accepting cities around.

Probably has something to do with its history.

"I'll hold your bags for you ma'am while you climb the ladder to street level."
*Looks up as she does*

Is the Moon a Harsh Mistress?

OMFG, you just gave me another answer for the question "where does the rock touch the sky?"... The Moon, obviously! It's a giant rock, in the sky... Plus it's something semi-abstract, that people take for granted. Very few people when asked "where the rock touches the sky" would come up with the Moon as an answer, and those who had probably wouldn't benefit from it, considering space travel is a very recent development...