Thinking about SR5, I decided I'd figure out a few things I'd like to see in it.

1) I'd like to see Technomancers following rules more closely to those of Mages, just for ease of play. Follow the same basic ruleset, but tailored to the Matrix, and we're good to go.

2) I'd like to see a more fleshed out section on Astral Space, and what we can do there.

3) I'd like for 'cosmetic' cyberware / bioware, to not have an Essence Cost. Seriously, save Essence Costs for things which are more invasive, and involve 'removing' or 'replacing' parts of the body. If I get cybertattoos, they should have zero impact on my Essence. Also, if you're born with genetic engineering, it shouldn't impact your Essence at all... after all, this IS your astral template. Why the hell would it impact your Magic or Resonance? (After all, you can make a full-blown clone Mage with 6 Essence out of the box in 4E).

4) I would like to see a little more detail on commlinks, what you can put in them and such. A focus on consumer society (apps and the like), and how these work together with the character.

5) I'd like to see the magical paths a bit more divergent, so they stand out a little more.

I think the major thing I'm looking for is someone to go through and find places where the old rules no longer fit (fireball vs stunball?), and rewrite them. The second biggest would be making sure crunch and fluff match.

If anything TMs need to differentiate more from magi, not move closer to them.

I'd like to see technomancers retconned out, honestly.

I would also like this. I understand why they put all magicians in the same boat in 4E, but I still don't like it. I'd like to add a second axis, in addition to Materialization-Possession: Binding-Calling. Binding traditions, like Hermeticism, summon up the spirits they want and bind them to serve. Calling traditions (might need a new term to differentiate from the Calling rules in Running Wild) summon whatever spirit happens to be in the area and negotiate for favors. Basically, a return to the old Hermetic/shaman divide, only with room for more traditions.

I'd like to see hacking re-vamped to make the hacker shine more.

- Hackers with a datajack, commlink implant and hot-sim should be able to hack on a totally different level than a hacker who just has a commlink and trodes. Maybe to the point of making VR only accessible to hackers with a commlink implant. Also, bring back cyberdecks. Hackers should have their own personalized rigs that aren't just better PDAs than everyone else has. There should be a world of difference between a cyberdeck and a commlink. Not just more Response and System scores.

- I'd like less opposed checks for tasks. My group spends a lot of time looking up basic rules because the players forget what opposed check they need to make. For example, Summoning.

- Full color book, good binding, and a Limited Collector's Edition I can pre-order yesterday!!

I'm not sure I agree. A commlink is effectively a PC - what would a cyberdeck have that a commlink doesn't? I mean, a cyberdeck is effectively a computer which stores your programs and hooks to the matrix - which is everything a commlink does. The only difference is whether you're wanting to go AR or VR. Hmm, I don't know about the datajack vs trodes, technology may have gotten to the point where the difference is minimal.

The problem then is you're having to remember more rules. If they have the same basics: Sprites = Spirits, Programs = Spells, Fading = Drain, then at least a player who has learned to play one can quickly adapt to the other. Technomancers are effectively 'Mages in the Matrix' which is a good fit, I feel. If you make them too different, then you start to question their place.

In SR4, I completely agree. Commlinks are computers. However, I think you could really split it out. Think of a Commlink as a tablet PC. Think of a Cyberdeck as a full desktop PC with bleeding-edge hardware that you just can't fit into a tablet. If you had that kind of digital divide, hackers with cyberdecks would be something to be feared on the Matrix, and anyone who hacked using a commlink would be a script-kiddie by comparison.

It's just an idea. I just think hackers were cooler back in the Cyberdeck days. Now, EVERYONE has a commlink. Hackers just have slightly better commlinks than everyone else and pay a little more for better programs.

I would like to see a little more module capability with drones/vehicles, especially in regards to constructing one from scratch if none of the book versions meet what you are looking for.

SR3 Variable TN.
SR3 Armor/Damage-System.
SR3 Skill-System with Pools instead of Attribute+Skill+Bonus shitloads of dice idiocy . .
Rest can stay as it is in SR4 i guess . .

Suggestion: Take this "wish list" and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.

Suggestion: learn manners.

Otherwise: agreed. ^^

I wish for one thing only: an easy conversion for characters from SR4 to SR5.

Variable TNs: One of the most PoS mechanics ever used in an RPG. It is utterly stupid and pointless, especially since things can get to the point where you have to roll a fragging 20 on a d6 to get a 'success'. See? Stupid mechanic.

SR3 Damage System: Lethality in games needs to be REDUCED, not exacerbated.

SR3 Skill System: Going back to attributes being almost entirely pointless to put points into other than the fact you have to? No fragging thanks.


To be perfectly honest, the SR4A system needs to be left as-is except for perhaps a streamlining of the Matrix (and only the Matrix, everything else is fine).

All of those changes would succeed in doing what they said they wanted to do with SR4.
GREATLY REDUCE THE NUMBER OF DICE BEING ROLLED.

My initial reaction: It buuuurn! take it away! take it away!

My reasonable response.
Variable TNs might not be the best idea, but moving a lot of modifiers from the DP to the threshold would make things smoother, for opposed tests... beats me.
Rewinding the skill system would make attributes mostly useless again, I don't like that.
Can't really make a statement on the damage system I barely remember anything about except that everything was Dikote

That is not a good thing. Especially not when it makes an entire section of the character sheet (attributes) almost worthless except for a couple of 'derived' statistics and one or two 'niche' instances.

If you want SR3, then just go hunt down the books, play that and let other people play the much better version.

What I would like to see for 5th ed is no 5th ed. I am giving up an rebuying all the core rule books.

SR3 variable TNs was probably the #1 thing that gave my players headaches. I understand why some people like them, but I think SR4 did a better job with this.

I WOULD like to see dice-pools brought back in some kind of way. Not to the point where it makes Attributes useless, but I really liked the Dicepool system of SR3, and so did some of my players. I'd be interesting to see what you could come up with.

Unfortunately, this probably isn't an option. When a new edition is announced, the chances of it not happening are so slim as to be nonexistant.

As for my wishlist for 5E, more love for Riggers.
No rigger book and only a few pages at the end of the hacking section?
How am I supposed to build Samus Aran using that?!

Oh hell yeah
I want power armour! ^^

Except for the decking/hacking systems we kept with SR3 in our games for those various reasons. The more I hear of the 4th ed which clearly did not fix problem, going to 5th ed. I think why bother? We will keep with what we enjoy and just wait for all the grumbles around 6th ed.

I am not a fan of the way variable TNs were implemented in SR3, but I think there is room for them if you did something like TN can vary between 2-6 (base 4) and anything that would increase the TN above 6 removes dice from the pool, so you don't have to worry about the shitty math of the linear TN increase but exploding difficulty at 8.

Personally, I'd like to tweak their use of sprites and limit threading.



I'd like for grounding to come back too!



+1 this, though as I recall they can't clone mages....


Yeah, but I rarely see people using the options they have now.



I disagree, it helps if the rules for all mages are similar. A few bonuses here and there are ok, even the different drain stats I am ok with. Spirits being the same water vs lake/river/ocean, not really needed.

Things I want:

Revise stick and shock to be less end all be all--seriously!!!

Armor stacking:Reduce the amount of armor stacking!!!

Cyberware limbs: Change the way armor works to the 1/6 method (Head, torso, arms, legs).

Weapon damage codes: Up the leathality!!

Matrix: Data Searches need to be harder, rules/tips that help GMs run the matrix easier. Make cyber combat quicker. Keep hackers and riggers on the same system (easier to run!!).

Vehicle rules: Sensor rules should make more sense . Vehicle combat--get rid of it and incorporate into regular combat. I think I used those rules once......

Magic: Up the drain values, mages have too easy a time avoiding drain in SR4. Spirits and edge--it should be better spelled out or offer suggestions on how GM's should handle its use.


Other general things: Compatible with 4E books (simple conversions), give examples, and keep an index!!!

1. PC streamlining a good thing.
2. Some drain code and spirit issues. Lets make fireball as scary as mana bolt.
3. Matrix, I'm glad it's not my job to "fix" this once more. I think 4th had it going in right direction though.
4. Combat, armor changes, dart Gun rules clarified, fix stick and shock.
5. Fix adrenal pump so its not suicideware. Prices need leveled for some ware.
6. Curious about grittier combat, the games I have run lately are tearing up 400 BP PC's pretty regularly.
7. Really not sure about gear options need to hear more. Sensors and explosives need redone.

Speaking as a designer myself, I do agree having a sliding TN is a bad decision. You can already adjust difficulty by determining # of successes, or by +/- dice pool, why add sliding TNs to the mix?



I'll have to disagree here. I have seen what's possible in SR4 for Street Sams, and when you add Adepts and Spells to the mix, it gets obnoxious. Combat should be very lethal - something you want to avoid, or put an end to as quickly as possible, rather than walking in, guns blazing, and laughing as your opponents bounce bullets off your armour and spells. I would like the knife-in-the-back or the sniper rifle shot to do their job - kill the person outright.

The point of the SR3 Skillset was that you had a fixed number of dice to roll for a skill.
TN changed and number of hits needed changed. Skill-Pool never changed. You may have had dice pools which you could allocate to different things, but you never had things like in SR4 where your ammount of Dice can go from -10 to +30 or more . .

The thing is - what's the point of the dice pool system? This would basically relate to 'more dice per roll' if you evened out the pool between your various actions, and if you end a round with any pool left over, that's a waste. I think the 'spend 1 edge, get X dice' worked better. It basically amounted to the same thing, but you had a limit on how often you could do it.

Okay, so you have Dice Pool X. You could + or - what you needed for a success, and you could + or - how many successes you needed. I'd definitely have to go with 'pick one'. Because together, those are kind of redundant. What's the effect of +1 TN versus +1 success needed?

I can accept a +/- dice pool with +/- successes needed, which is what SR4 did, but I'd be more inclined to do a +/- dice pool, with 1+ successes needed. This would work better to reducing dice pools (thus reducing the number of dice rolled) by penalties, and presuming any success over the first produces a greater effect, but the 1 success is the threshold needed. Having the weird 'you got 3 successes, you failed' scenarios tend to bother me.

In most tests, you only needed 1 single success to succeed . . extras added bonus or reduced time needed or something. The tests where both number of needed hits and TN changed were really seldom.

It's a fine balance to strike, if you make combat to lethal, you're in danger of reducing variety and thus lessening some peoples enjoyment of the game.
While some a lot of people here is all mirror shades all of the time, there's definitely a place in SR for guns blazin' pink mohawk. Making combat overly lethal in a game completely without resurrection (Well not counting hand of god, that still leaves you in a shoddy state), would severely hamper more action heavy playstyles.
Otherwise I agree, some of the soaking possible is silly and need adjustment.

For the most part, that doesn't happen that much except in the case of opposed tests where the opponent gets more hits than you. The cases where it does happen, well, if the threshold is 5 hits and you get 3 hits, then you fail.*

*- If you think in the term 'hits' (used in the books) rather than 'successes' it's much less of a confusion.

Having a sidebar with some optional tweaks to reduce lethality is a way to go, but I generally like games which have the option of the one-hit-kill. The big armoured Troll of Doom who doesn't wear a helmet getting a bullet through the eye sort of thing. I've seen one game which does it well, though I don't think it would work as well with SR5.

Abney Park's Airship Pirates has a round of combat be a variable amount of time. The die roll is to determine the result of a series of exchanges, and one roll can actually kill someone outright. It makes for dramatic narrative, and if you survived being hit once, you're probably inclined to run like hell, but I don't think the 'flexible timeframe' sort of scenario would work with Shadowrun. It would allow for dramatic action sequences, mind... but I don't know.

Which reminds me.

And the difference to SR3 is what? There your TN could change between 2 and 20 depending on the situation - and of course you could get bonus dice depending cyberware etc.

No thank you.

SYL

A reminder to everyone to keep discussion civil, especially with highly inflammatory topics such as new editions.

L5R - One of the Deadliest games I have ever played.

I have to Agree with Murrdox, but for all the wrong reasons...I am not fond of the "wireless" world. I preferred 3rd edition when the only way a Hacker or Rigger (cyber or Technomancer)had to Jack in to the target. It forced the the Matrix character to physically with the group instead of being safely far away from the flying bullets...I like to put all my players in mortal danger

You're thinking of it wrong misdemeanor!
Hacking from home means that he got no backup when you bust down the door

I would like two core settings. Seattle and a rural area. One thing I thought Shadowrun could of used was a rural setting similar to the Far Cry games.

I'd like to see the archetypes more different and more... I dunno, fleshed out?
Technomancers shouldn't be just matrix magi, there should be a mystery to them. Shamans and hermetics should deviate more. Adepts and sammies, hackers and riggers, all should have their own unique things going, both in mechanics and fluff. Yeah, that'd mean learning new rules to play a new archetype. So... what?
In this vain, I like the idea with cyberdecks returning. They really helped hackers to stand out. I don't think they should be that different or complex to design or anything; just having anything past a certain Rating threshold require a cyberdeck might work.

All I want for Christmas is my matrix back.

Fuck Technomancers. Fuck wireless. Fuck RFIDs. Fuck AR. These things are the opposite of fun, and make deckers useless.

"Bring back 80's speed metal"
And the Rocker Archetype.

And this.

Rockers make every other face look lame and boring by comparison.

Omae, if we were in the rules it wouldn't be metal \../

That's progress. Look at the world now - wireless. RFIDs everywhere. Augmented Reality exists in the now. I was just writing an essay on Science Fiction, and one of the things I praised Shadowrun with is that they're keeping up with modern technology, and thus remaining relevant as a science fiction genre. If they ignored the wireless world, AR, and everything that comes with it, Shadowrun would descend into irrelevancy -- much like Cyberpunk did. Cyberpunk tried to stick to its roots, and in doing so, became less and less realistic, and showed its age more and more.

I want Shadowrun to take modern advances in technology and culture into account, and keep updating to match the shift in what's relevant now. This means that the world is wireless, this means that everyone's going to have a full-fledged computer on hand. This means that scanners and ID tags are going to be everywhere, on everything. That's just how the world evolved, and Shadowrun should mirror this if it wants to make sense.

Otherwise, you're going to have things like 'we're able to do this NOW, why can't we do this in SR?' -- and the excuse 'because we can't' isn't going to cut it.

The way to do it is to have the "optional tweaks" be the higher lethality like it was done in SR4 (unneeded as they are, it's lethal enough as-is).

I don't know if I would change enough to make a while new edition. My main gripes my group and I have had were the rocket rules and hacking being too easy. Im sure for the hacking thing im missing something when I run it. Not sure if my group will jump ship to SR5, I kinda don't want to learn another rule set when im happy with the old one really. I understand from a sale point why they have another one coming out after this time but im not really that excited for it.

Crap, forgot about rockets and their scatter... Then again, that's a really easy fix (ignore it on rockets or swap rocket and grenade scatter).

My simple fix is to ignore SR4A's scatter table and use the old SR4 one. The new scatter table is nothing short of lunacy. With that sort of wild and random inaccuracy from even the best heavy weapons experts using the best guidance systems, there's absolutely no reason to use rockets, missiles, or grenades in the SR4 world.

Ah, yes. That's something else for the wish list. Explaining exactly how hacking works. What programs do what, how they are used, and a breakdown of the methods to go about breaking into a computer and getting what you need in non-vague terms.