That is not too different from how WP should be used

But a wiki is not just a useful resource for writers and forum discussions, it's also a good tool for getting new players hooked to the universe. In other words, return on investment...

Nor did I question him.

My point in my "Wish list" Was that all the writers do their research and due diligence when it comes to what has come before, in the way that bull, does. It's a big deal to me.

So what makes you think they don't. Whenever I proofread, my wife usually complains because our dining table is covered in shadowrun book, right from 1st edition to the newest. I wish they were all available in searchable PDF.

Well, no. You wouldn't be surprised. I meant the others

<grin>

Bull

I didn't say they don't. lol I put it on my 'Wish list' for Shadowrun 5th Edition. As something that was important to me. Along with such things as "Good art". Things that I really want in the next iteration of the game. Most of the time, the writers don't make super glaring errors, but there's been a few glaring errors that have popped up from time to time. And are discussed at length here and other places. I'm not slinging mud for mistakes.

I'm pointing out that my wishlist is pretty simple. I'm not railing about minutia of rules and stats and rolls and what not.

1) Keep the flavor of Shadowrun.
2) Don't turn it into World of Warcraft on a table (( Tank, Healer, and groups of DPS, or "Leader" Healer, and dps))
3) Good art. Crappy art can totally ruin a mental image built for cool things.
4) Don't re-envent every wheel. Yeah it's a new edition but don't change things just to change things. Change what's NEEDED and keep what works
5) Be aware of what's come before/Stay true to the metaplot and the characters that have been written over the decades.

*Licks Shadowrun* BLEH! Are you sure about that?

It tastes like cordite, blood, a dirty back alley, burnt chrome and wiring, and bacon!

Bacon makes everything taste better.

But can you guess the secret ingredient? Hint - it's all over the place in Bunraku parlors.

Yep, you guessed it! Desperate, hopeless, human suffering.

~Umi

Oh, I can smell the human suffering. The secret ingredient I just IDed. Burnt Kitten.

To add to my previous points, I would also like NPC's to have Availability. Your fixer might not be able to get you whoever you need whenever you need it.

Already exists...

Yup, yup by RAW there's a connection check, roll a d6 if the result exceeds the contacts rating he's available.

Well... Equal to or Exceeds connection rating.

Thats... thats not bacon. /ghoulish look

No, it's not bacon, it's magic.

Long pork makes ""bacon""....

Magic long pork?

~Umi

Not unless it was magical previously. lol

... said the Wendigo.

"Oh, yes, I'm very fond of Calvin. Pass the gravy, please."

~Umi

He's a very... Tender subject at the moment.

Not for 5th edition in itself, but for later:

An artbook like "High Tech and Low Life" but with a quality like some paperwall available from catalyst, with pictures from the most famoust places of the 6th world (like for exemple, that Arcology wallpaper).

Something from the SR4.com forums reminded me of another wish: Establish a certain standard of how bestial trolls and orks look like, and also remind artists that trolls are supposed to be REALLY tall.

A little something I put together in Inkscape: http://postimage.org/image/tkph1fu5j/full/

I like this. I wish the proportions were better, closer to what's always been described, but the height comparisons are a splendid thing to have around. Thanks!

Yep, the proportions required some more trial-and-error: http://postimage.org/image/jfp5yh5uv/full/
The relative surface areas of the silhouettes now correspond to the weight differences, while the length of troll arms and dwarf legs is guesstimate. Looks like trolls are really fat, unless they are more dense (bad pun alert) than standard humans.

Hm, Human and elf looks fine, the poor ork got his head squished, troll seems about right... Not sure whether the dwarf needs to be stockier... I mean they weight like 55kgs at 1.20, I know girls that are like 1.50 and weight less.

The figures were stretched sideways, it wasn't meant to be uniform.

They did one of these in the 20th anniversary, but if memory serves it was some sort of retarded troll with his/her knees together squatting with a 'tee hee' look on it's face that ruined the line up pic.

The concept was sound but I remembered seeing that troll and it totally blowing it for me.

Trolls arms are supposed to be longer too.

One more thing I'd like to add to my Wishlist is 'More Paracritters".

Not so much that we need new ones or the like, but use the ones we have. Paranormal Animals of NA is the book that brought me into shadowrun. Awesome book. There's been Paranormal animals of Europe and Running wild, but out side those books... you don't really see/hear of them.

You hear about dragons. You hear about Devilrats and you hear about the infected. You don't hear about.... Juggarnauts that can take hits from cluster bombs and keep going, taking out towns or anything like that. You don't hear about Roc's flying off with busses or such. They're 'there' but kinda ignored except for the dragons, devilrats and infected.

It doesn't have to be a game of wild kingdom, but we've got 100s of paracritters which, if nothing else, would make living in SR ALOT more intresting. Especially when you factor in billions of humans died from the viral outbreaks just before/after the awakenings. There's alot less humans around and they're more concentrated.

Technically, a Troll does not need longer Arms . .
Troll-Arms are about as long as Human-Legs.
Humans get a +1 Reach on kicks with Legs.
Trolls get a +1 Reach on punches with Arms.
Sounds about right to me O.o
If anything, Trolls need longer Legs to justify the +2 Reach they get with kicks.

I think they meant in the size comparison chart.

Yeah, in SR, trolls "Have" longer arms. The ratio is longer on a troll than a human. I'm not saying they need even LONGER arms. I was pointing out they already HAD them. lol.

Ugh... i am not here for a few months and it's already 5th edition time... and a 38-pages thread? Took me a while to get to the end...

Maybe a bit late but hey:

1. Seperate the different mages from another (In fluff as well as rules)
- Shamans get their domains back, Mages their bound armies. Spiritpowers not universal.
2. Revision of spirits, also bugfixing magic
- Drain needs to slightly increase with power of spell or better: likelier critical drain. Spellresistance should be possible (viable) for non-mages.
3. Destroy Technomancers, get Otakus on board. (Or simpler: Technomancers are fine... but not like THIS)
4. Deadlyness and consequences
- I really liked the advanced medical rules in the 3rd Edition: Trauma surgery, essence-loss because of damage (or better: botched medical attention)
- Negative effects of "too much" magic, cyber, bioware etc.; Also more "ruined" characters. Drugs, Move-by-Wire, foci addiction, astral-out-of-touch drifting: everything not in moderation should have real and dangerous effects. SR4 is playing things (mostly) too safe and clean.


Things i KNOW won't be done:
1. World reset; Play in the 2050ies. Comlink and wireless depowered. Allow for Nanites and genetic improvements
2. Lesser AI's as characters in core (I like them *g*)
3. Switch back to more of a 3rd edition-like rule(roll?) mechanic (But with streamlines / alterations): The ramping up difficulties and self-regulating abilities and such. Recently thought about it... and i REALLY prefer it to the reliable "i will just throw more dice at the problem" of the 4th edition.



So i read somewhere that Equipment is now the limiter of Attribute+Skill roll (And skill now more open?) with for example "Accuracy" on weapons.
First i thought that might be a good idea, but setting a hard-limit is just bad for the fell/atmosphere/dangerousness. In my opinion it should work differently... but we would need variable TN's back *g*. (Yeah.. i would really like to have them back)... Also maybe change the system to D10 *Runs for his life*

Why does everyone hate technomancers?
Is it a fluff issue or an execution issue?
On the second count Im willing to admit that there's a lot of unused potential, to make them more then matrix magi.
On the first count, Im perfectly fine with them being the technology answer to magi, however! That is if their powers really are technological in nature and all this stream and resonance talk is just basic human desire to explain something they don't understand.
and yes Im fine with the matrix essentially becoming "alive" it's a very transhumanist idea, but it's an interesting proposition what technology might become if it reaches the point where it can produce sentience and independently evolving routines.
Also the idea of a superorganism of information and communication is kind of romantic...

For me, it's execution.

I'm right there with you Lion. I don't dislike technomancers at all. Infact I rather like them.

I don't play one (( and yes it's due to the mechanics hassle)) but I 'would'. I also like how they've done AI. The few big bad ones but also a handful of smaller less earth shaking ones.

As for the Matrix becoming it's own 'plane', I'm all down for that too. The only problem I see is the need for rules covering all the minutia that would be in there. (( More so than there are now. It basically IS it's own plane of existence, just having it 'Become' such (( more than now)) wouldn't really change anything for me.

I don't understand the Technomancer hate either.

for me it's both.
they should just have made it so that otaku don't lose their powers with age and called it a day . .

Magical brain wi-fi is weird, since magic and technology don't have any other explicit connections*, and while the tech isn't always exactly realistic this is one spot where the regular logic/science of the gameworld goes straight out the damn window.

*except cyberzombies

Yepp, more like this.
For me its execution. (A bit fluff too)

I like the sudden expression, the sudden possibility of someone intuitively using the wireless matrix... technology better, more skillful than people with logic, programs etc.

What i don't like:
Crapping on the rules: Sprites shouldn't have "magical" ressources. they still are programs on a system (No rating 12 Programs on a toaster) or the use of the "Touchlink" technique... that doesn't work like this.
Also no "mentors" for them. The mysterious, maybe even sentient, deep resonance is fine.

Overall i like having them in (Technomancers)... but not like this.

P.S. Oh... maybe even have their powers have special synergy with cyberware and their own brain (Self-reprogramming, conditioning, memory alteration etc.) Also no " Magic-loss" with essence-loss. It's stupid here...

The arms already are longer than normal, more would IMO look gorilla-ish.

@Epicedion: Radio waves are not exactly magic...the whole "bioelectric field" woo is not exactly hard science, but not magic either.

Fluffwise I'm a bit ambivalent on. I wouldn't be opposed to changes, but I don't have any particular loathing for what's there.

It's magic. Tech hides behind the shield of "oh it's very high tech" but at least provides some mechanism for allowing you to suspend disbelief. But the brain as a radio receiver, much less a radio transmitter with the necessary power? It's either magic or bullshit. Bullshit is bullshit, and magic radio brains are dumb.

EDIT: When I say it's dumb, I mean that as an extension of the Otaku as a sort of meddled-with group firmly grounded in the tech of the game. All of a sudden when they jumped editions they became something thematically different, and it seems that it's that way just to get them to work in the boundaries of the wireless Matrix (oh I hate you, wireless Matrix).

Well there was an Deus ex machina that caused the whole thing, not just Otaku starting to become wireless out of the blue.
Also Clarke's third law, just because we don't understand it now doesn't make it magic.

Because Otaku can't get an implanted Comlink to be just as mobile as any other guy . .
Or simly connect one to their DataJack . . noo . . of course not . .

Would you be happy if there was a soft science explanation to brain computers?
Honestly don't see the issue, people pick up radio signals in their fillings from time to time, don't see why in a world full of signals you wouldn't be able to tap into the buzz...
Technocritters strikes me as very... odd, though.

They DO look gorilla-ish. Open up your Core book, It states straight up that the trolls arms are signifigantly longer than the other metatypes. With their size, they're SUPPOSED to look gorrilish. lol.

Spontaneously generated biological wireless high-data-capacity brain transmitters that can work over multi-kilometer distances. In other words, magic.

Who said anything about spontaneously generated?
and soft nanites are biological aswell, can't they form complex structures?

It's called "life" the peak of which (at least on this planet, and even then depending on who you ask) is "a human."

(That's the reason I'm not afraid of a Gray Goo Scenario: it already happened, and it was green)

Except that you're part of that Green Goo scenario, and if a Gray Goo one plays out, the green goes out the window, and you with it.

~Umi