Whoops shouldn't have gotten that datajack before I awakened now I'm (arbitrarily) unable to develop my talent!

On the notion of ware, always thought it was weird fluff wise how TM's get screwed over by ware... I get it from a balance standpoint, ought to be a better way to approach it though.
and no "remove technomancers" is not the solution.

This, right here. In kilometer-high neon letters.






They only "play nice" together in the same sense, and to teh same degree, that they have since the launch of 1E. I really, really don't see the problem.


HELL NO.

That's not a compromise. That's nothign less than a "You're a mage, with cyber? FUCK YOU, now go make a new character!"

...

EDIT TO ADD: and it would absolutely screw over my own, perfectly-reasonable "HAcker Adept" character. Granted, he's really capable - but that owes more to his being built with 1,000 karma. Just out of CharGen, his Magic is 5, and his Essence is 5.1; his Augmentations include R1 Cybereyes (Low-light, flare comp, a cosmetic eyemod, protective covers, and skinlink), a datajack (with skinlink), a skin pocket, EPE: PuSHeD, and - this is the big one - a simsense booster.

Hardly gamebreaking.

For adept powers? Astral Perception, Eidetic sense memory, Sustenance, Multi-tasking, and a giant raftload of Improved Ability (noncombat) abilities (3 dice to Hacking; 2 dice to each of Artisan, Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, Hardware, and Software). All affordable due to The Artisan's Way.

...

And you would have him be denied the option to Initiate? Or just plain denied the option to have any of his implants, only one of which has a significant effect on his role ...?

Bah. Fuck that noise.

The character still functions as a mage (or adept, mystic adept, whatever), but they're actually paying a price for having those implants. They can still take the implants, and so long as the magic rating wasn't "hard capped" right off they can still buy another point. They'll just never be as powerful a mage (or whatever) as one that didn't take the implants.

Heck if the optional rule with metamagic is still in SR5, and active, they would still be able to get those despite not Initiating.

The price of "never be better as a Mage/Adept than when you left Character Generation".

Yes, that is a huge "fuck you" to anyone who wants to play a lightly-cybered but still Awakened character.

See my example, above? In his backstory, the Eyes and 'Jack both predate his Awakening. Your suggestions owuld make the entire concept unplayable, and for no good reason I can see.

Tweaking the Essence cost of gear for Awakened characters might be more prudent -- simply have them cost some significant percentage more, just because you're Awakened. Like double. That would push Awakened more toward tiny bits of utility gear rather than chroming themselves out. It would also push them toward higher quality gear with all its extra expense.

That way you'd be able to take a datajack or a smartlink, or some cybereyes/ears or whatever, but the big-ticket items like Wired Reflexes would just be beyond most mages Essence-wise if not financially. Deltaware Wired Reflexes could pay for some pretty spiffy foci, after all.

Something needs to be done so that mages and adepts can't be cybered?

The answer is "No."
Nothing needs to be done. It works fine, has worked fine up until now and will probably work fine in the future.
If your perception does not allow this, do something yourself and make up house rules.
There is no necessity nor a vocal majority or even a vocal minority who demands such things. You're the first person I've seen with this stance in all my time playing this game
Ergo: "No."

The concept you speak of would still be able to get to a magic rating of 5. It just wouldn't be able to do "kewl powerz" stuff (though it would still be able to over cast up to Force 10). It would still be able to buy up every other attribute; it would still be able to improve skills and buy new skills.

As to Bannockburn's comment, it's pretty much that the price is not high enough since so many of the "optimizers" think it's worth the cost, so the cost needs to be high enough that those sorts do not think it's worth the cost.

Isn't adepts more about the magic rating and less about the "kewl stuff"

That's just your perception.
I don't think that the price is 'not high enough' (and still have never played a cybered adept or mage, because personal decision). Matters of taste are very difficult to quantify.
So, by all means: Swing your nerfbat at your home table to make sure those evil optimizers never play a cybered and awakened character. However, be aware that the rules as given so far have been rather robust and most people do not see a need to tweak them.

The ones who are always saying to put bio ware into all adepts are the reason that something needs to be done to make the price of taking implants higher, so apparently it's not at present.

Another idea similar to my thoughts on Concealability - weapon fire perception modifiers. Let's call it "Audibility". (Why not?)

1) "Audibility", like Concealability, should be a vital, required statistic for every weapon and item in the game. It should be a measure of how easy or difficult it is to hear the normal operations of the weapon or item. Higher Audibility means it is easier to hear the item in question, lower means it is harder.

1a) While we're at it, change "Concealability" to "Visibility" for goodness sake! It never made sense to me that a gun with a "higher" Concealability value was less able to to be concealed than one with a "lower" Concealability. Changing to "Visibility" solves this problem neatly, and allows you split off item size into its own distinct value. It can even dovetail with the existing Visibility Modifiers rules.

2) There should be a "null value" for Audibility, representing weapons or items that are completely (or almost) silent by nature - things such as melee weapons definitely, but also perhaps beam weapons, crossbows, or other relatively noiseless implements.

3) Weapon class and power should appropriately modify Audibility. An assault cannon should be far more audible than a holdout pistol, and a Ruger Super Warhawk should be slightly more audible than other Heavy Pistols.

4) Burst fire should appropriately modify Audibility. More Dakka™ should produce more noise. Thus, while a Machine Pistol firing short bursts will match the damage of a semi-auto Assault Rifle in a smaller, less visible package, it might still make as much, or more, sound.

5) Ammunition should appropriately modify Audibility. Subsonic rounds already do this to a degree, but arguably things like Explosive Rounds should be somewhat louder than ordinary bullets as well.

6) The environment should appropriately modify Audibility, akin to Visibility modifiers. It's a lot easier to hear something in an empty corporate office than in a busy industrial warehouse or an explosive goblin-rock concert.

~Umi

My group is reasonable and doesn't routinely do such shenanigans. It was after seeing so many on these forums and the official forums that do do such that I discovered that something needs to be done.

And still nothing needs to be done. Your wanting it does not make it so.
There are basically two ways to solve such a situation: Either you make the thing that's not taken (in this particular case: Enhanced physical attributes) more desirable, or you make the other thing less desirable. Guess which one is more fun
Yours is a mostly unjustified knee-jerk reaction born from, by your own admission, not even personal experience. You see other people play the game differently and want them to stop it. Seriously, what? Is that envy or just weird?

Not to stop it, but for the cost to be high enough that it's done solely because the character envisioned requires it, rather than--as it currently is--because the cost is so low that they just want the extra dice it gives.

Let me get this straight Bigguns, you never experienced it as a problem and yet you advocate that it need to be fixed?
Isn't that like selling the skin before you killed the bear?

This sounds a lot like "Other people enjoy different things than I do. They should stop doing that and enjoy what I like!"

Just because it doesn't happen at my table doesn't mean I can't see the sheer number who do it from coming to these forums (and the other forums) and recognize that it is a problem.



Come now. A personal attack like this only hurts your case.

And the foundation for modern law.

(Quick: how many federal laws are there on the books that are "strict liability" that is, laws where ignorance of the law doesn't protect you from prosecution*)

*Answer: Trick question: the number is unknowable and that's just federal laws! Not to count state and local regulations. [1]

Techically, yes, something HAS to be done about awakened taking Implants . .
Because a Mundane has 5 points of Essence to spend, realistically, because
a: he will run out of money soon
b: going below 1 point of Essence is dangerous, as soon as you have to deal with essence loss in game . .

an awakened character may have the same problems, but on the other hand he still retains magical abilities that he can tack on to what he does with the same cyber than the mundane.
"oh so you can see lowlight, infrared and far away stuff and ultrasound and have a gun-cam feed with target help? Cool, me too! but i still have Astral Perception additionally!"

giving all awakened the BioRejection or Sensitive System Flaw mandatory would be a way to deal with this partly . .



furthermore, i just remembered another reason why adepts should get cheaper attribute boosts while samurai should get cheaper skills and boosts . .
adepts are supposed to be good at one or two things through magic. and really good at that. so good that they are called adept at something.
while samurai are supposed to be the swiss army knife generalists, jack of all trades but master of none.
this makes it so that an adept can, in game, broaden his horizons learning some new stuff for little karma for beginner skills because he has to spend more on his magic and adept abilities
and the samurai can specialize in stuff using little money and more karma, because he already has a good foundation . .

I did not mean to attack you, and I do not see how you got this feeling, but let me explain further:

You state: "I don't like that cybered adepts are overpowered", then "I don't experience this, my group is reasonable". This alone infers that you think that everyone who uses implants on his awakened characters is not reasonable. Furthermore, you state that you only ever had contact with such people on forums, making your demands seem a bit off.
What else am I to deduct from such a line of argumentation other than "People are having fun WRONG!"?

This is not meant as an attack, but rather as a suggestion that you ask yourself whether this is a real problem or just a personal opinion and why it bothers you so much if you don't even experience it?

I have two words for you, All4: tough shit.

Seriously. How I, or Lion, or anyoen else has fun away from your table and your group, is quite frankly none of your god-damned business.

You have zero business telling me how my games should or shouldn't be played. You have zero business looking at a behavior that does not affect your play and declaring it "badwrongfun", then advocating it be Officially Dsicouraged™. ZERO.

Period, end of story.

There's a lot of people crying wolf on the internet. Something that's broken in theory under ideal conditions, doesn't necessarily mean there's actually a problem that needs fixing.
Spend some time on any online gaming community and you'll soon discover that everything is broken overpowered, underpowered or doesn't work as intended.

Can't wait for rules lawyers and munchkins to get a hold of Velociraptor! Cannibalism! to see what kind of insane and overpowered monstrosities result.

To which our reply will be:

"And the odds of that occurring in real play are...?"

Personally, I've never see the huge advantage in lightly cybered awakened characters. There nothing gamebreaking about a cybermage in 4.5, when you consider how much you have to spend on it. Augmented adepts can get out of hand (see the Pornomancer for details) but there's other ways of dealing with them. I'm siding with Pax on this one, there's no need.

As for Technomancers . . yes, quite the interesting Problem there . .
On one hand, they are Technological Magic. Which is, in itself, a big nono in Shadowrun.
And they are the successors to the Otaku. Who were just the Result of an AI's Experiment because it was lonely and hear it's non biological Clock ticking . .

On the OTHER Hand, they might be the one step up in evolution between Metahumanity as it is right now and a Metahumanity that has gone over to cyberspace completely . .
Where they would be safe from the Horrors and there would not be any big Problem otherwise either, aside from, maybe, boredom . .
You don't need food, you don't need water, you don't need space on the surface, space is basically unlimited as new space can simply be created . .
The only problems would come from the outer world infrastructure failing to provide energy for the matrix systems . .
And then you jump into drones to fix it up and have factories build these drones automagically . .

Ugh, technomancers give me headaches. Thematically they seem barely based on the Otaku, who still relied on implanted technology. The "magical wireless brain" thing bugs me.

Yeah, me too, but then, basically everything about SR4 bugs me . .
The Otaku should have been expanded upon, with every Decker having the Ability to Awaken to be an Otaku . .

Just to, very briefly, throw in my two cents; I'd really like to see the Essence & Magic system tweaked to make the old Burned Out Mage archetype a reasonable possibility again. It was a great fun and flavourful archetype, really getting across the sense of the two different forces (Magic and Tech) in the world of Shadowrun.

Alas, it's a bit too pricey to play these days, what with you having to purchase your Magic attribute up to a reasonably decent level before deliberately handicapping yourself. Such a shame.

So, no, please don't prevent Mages et al from getting implants - please make it easier if anything! The Magic loss is price enough IMHO.

Did you read about Way of the Burnout yet? O.o

No - is this a "Way of the Adept" thing? Can it be applied to Mages?

In theory, though not strictly RAW - which intends it for Adepts and Mystic Adepts.

The Burnout's Way requires you to have lost 2 full points of magic due to Augmentations; in return, you essentially get the Biocompatibility quality "free" (pick Cyber or Bio, natch).

Technically, nothing from Way of the Adept is RAW . .

See, I'd just as happily not be given any bonus for being a burnout. I'd just like Magic to start at 6 from the off again (add some BP to the Magic User quality if needed, to help balance). Then I can purposely ruinate myself for the purposes of a good story. I used to love seeing the burnout sigh when the drek hit the fan, realising that he pretty much HAD to cast a decent spell to pull everyone's hoop out of the fire. He'd roll his dice and then the GM would describe the blood fountaining out of his ears. Great stuff!

No, it's all RAW.

It's just not core RAW.

They are all optional rules, as far as i know.

"RAW" means "Rules As Written", and carries no distinction between beign Core, being Supplement, or whatever. It just means "the way it was written in X or Y book". The official version, if you will.

Way of the Adept is RAW. It just isn't Core.

OTOH, if I home-brew a "Way of the Dumpster-Diver" quality, that is not RAW, because it is homebrew.

until you write it down somewhere, then it becomes, as per definition, rules as written.
ok, so it may be RAW, but it ain't, strictly speaking, canon . .

I felt the same way and instituted a house rule that your starting magic was capped at your starting essence (rounded down) but you still had to pay "hard cap" BP for the last point.

It was highly breakable, but my table is full of good guys so it worked for us.

At Chargen isn't it supposed to go like.
Buy points in magic ⇒ Buy augments ⇒ deduct essence ⇒ deduct magic.
(Going by the 4A chargen process)

Meaning that if you had 5.xx essence and want 5 magic you need to buy 6 at chargen?

yes, hence the house rule

If I may suggest something to solve this issue is this: any math done with dice pools (attributes, skills and such) would never solve the min-max issues.

The solution, in my opinion, is to have different kind of characters shine in different momments, rulling diferent aspects of the game.

Just to bring an example, we hear a lot of complain in these foruns about overpowered mages. I believe one thing that keeps mages unique in this game is precisely the thing they do, that only them can do. You need magic to effectively fight magic. I HATE the concetp of "pseudo-magic" technology solving the magic related problems. Have an angry spirit? No problem! Just trown my MANA-TECH granade.... have issues with awakened creatures? No problem! just use my magic-enchanted-MANA BULLETS... you guys get the picture.

I was a fan of the old 80s ninja movies, and I remmember the quote: "only a ninja can stop a ninja".

Also, remmember that "...there is a better way to take care of a wizard." 1:20

So if adepts can do things ONLY adepts can do, like:

- Fight awakened creatures,
- Jump down from a building (Selene from Underworld style),
- REALLY run up the walls,
- Really do GREAT LEAPS (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, anyone?),
- Have a SUPER DODGE (Matrix Style), usable once in full defense, with rules similar to atribute boost,

Need I to go on?

Maybe the solution would be: Mages and adepts shine doing unique, physics defying things, and dealing with awakeened creatures.

Super-cyber guys would shine using brute force, kicking down doors, soaking damage, and jumping/running using large pools but regular rules.

I believe this way we could build a better game.

Anyone ever watched Gargoyles?
It got a rather neat take on magic, basically.
"Remember that energy is energy, no matter the source"

Sure a spirit is big and scary and hard to kill, but oppose it with enough force and you should be able to beat it, whether it's a mana bolt or a rocket launcher

fuck yeah, Gargoyles is one of these Badass Series that nobody thinks was done by Disney . .

Actually I would suggest something entirelly different: to have just ONE resourse pool.

During characters generation, at least, everything should be bought with just ONE resourse (points, karma etc.). This would tremendously reduce the situation where min-maxers just choose based on whats more effective, instead of choosing what fits in the character concept.

I think would be possible to do exactly the same thing after character creation as well. As a result, money would be less important, like in World of Warcraft.

IF that ever become a problem durin game testing, a new approach could be used: the augumentations should be bought with money+karma. Yes, you would need money to buy augmentations in game, and karma to buy it in terms of meta-gamming.

I underestand, but if everything works for everything (like energy is energy), welcome to the World of Warcraft. Min-maxers will keeping on choosing whats most effective, and everything else will (indeed) be sub-optimal.

Is mush better to add variaty to the game that you need at least 3 or 4 different kinds of characters in the party, so you have most aspects of the game covered. At least I prefer to play a game that is not a "lone wolf game".

Just my 2 cents on this.

That's preferable to "oh you don't have an X? Well tough luck, you lose"
Funnily enough that was an issue in WoW for the longest time, especially during Burning crusade

Honestly, that's what we have now, and it doesn't work. It leads to increased fiddliness and encourages min/maxing, because it's easier to minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths when you can draw from all aspects equally. I prefer the original priority systems, a template system. It's harder to min/max, still provides lots of flexibility in character creation, and is faster and easier to use.

Well, Its an opinion.

I rather see this, and have diversity, uniqueness of roles, tham a party all composed of super-cyber/magic fellows. All kinda looking the same.

I remmember someone posting last week, saying that his streetsam was: a better hacker tham the hacker, a better face tham the face etc. Basic his super-cyber was better tham everyone in his party, becuse of the huge atributed/cybered dice-pools.

I suggest the game developers walk away from that.

Anyway, it's an opinion.

Ah! About WoW (dont we love that game?), the solution implemented recently was to bring unique buffs/debuffs to the raids (the party). Give people reasons to play diferent characters, not parties entirelly composed of paladins, for example.

We do not have the "buffs" in Shadow, but the idea of everyone colaborating is much more apealing to me than the lose wolf thing. Yes I do like DnD 4th edition.

Actually, that's part of the problem. By having a single resource (BP/Karma) has is effectively interchangable (you spend BP to get money, etc.) people find the lowest cost way to do X.

That cost being measured in BP.



Great line. I've made reference to it myself.
(Although I've come to the conclusion that that particular story arc was below par for the series*)

*I don't count the third season as canon and therefore not counted when making averages.

Prefer the crap-tastic Priority all you want. It doesn't change the fact that saying that Priority is the most railroading of all the generation systems. Priority is a dinosaur from 1st ed that needs to be taken out to pasture and shot.