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Patrick Goodman
Oh, for crying out loud, kids. Get a room.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Jan 31 2013, 09:09 AM) *
Oh, for crying out loud, kids. Get a room.


Heh... But then the adjoining rooms would pound on the walls and yell to keep it down. smile.gif
Though I am really not sure why Edge Expenditure for Spirits gets Draco18s all riled up in the first place. It is a RAW resource they have, and may spend in any way they see fit. It really baffles me. *shrug*

It is something that can be dropped, though. so...
Grinder
Tymeaus Jalynsfein, Draco: get over it. If you wish to continue your exchange of opinions, use PMs.
phlapjack77
Along with the discussion in the other thread about Accuracy modifiers for weapons, how about something like a Reliability modifier too? I've heard gun nuts afficianados talk about this gun or that gun being more or less prone to jamming in real life. How about a AK97 has a Reliability of -1, meaning it needs one less "1" to glitch on a roll. M22A2 has a Reliability of +1, meaning one more "1" is needed to glitch.

Probably makes die rolling a lot more bookkeeping, which is a bad thing. But it does give more room for customization of gear and reasons to buy gun X over gun Y.
_Pax._
That ... that would be very interesting, yes. I think though, it woudl be best to do as an optional rule, in an early supplement - Arsenal 5E, or whatever it gets called.

Maybe as a sort of "intrinsic modification", either Reliable or Unreliable ... something you can't install yourself, it either comes with the weapon/device, or it doesn't.
phlapjack77
Yeah, I was thinking this kind of thing would be better like the advanced lifestyle stuff talked about earlier, where the basic rules work just fine, but an additional book included these kinds of modifiers. Gear porn people could buy the added book, people who don't want the headache can just use the basic book.

Basic book, everything would be "reliability 0". Added Arsenal book introduces guns with differing reliabilities
_Pax._
Or, new rules say "The guns in the main book have the following Reliability traits" ... like Arsenal did for Stock Mods on existing vehicles and guns, anyway.
phlapjack77
Good point.

This might also work well for things like the monowhip: Reliability -3 or something. You REALLY don't want to use it if you have a low dice pool smile.gif
Grinder
I like that idea!
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Feb 2 2013, 05:06 AM) *
How about a M22A2 has a Reliability of -1, meaning it needs one less "1" to glitch on a roll. AK97 has a Reliability of +1, meaning one more "1" is needed to glitch.

Fixed that for you. AKs are one of the most reliable weapons on this planet, albeit with less accuracy.
thorya
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Feb 2 2013, 03:45 AM) *
Fixed that for you. AKs are one of the most reliable weapons on this planet, albeit with less accuracy.


Hey, when M16s jam, they become perfectly usable clubs! How's that for reliability? smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Feb 2 2013, 03:45 AM) *
Fixed that for you. AKs are one of the most reliable weapons on this planet, albeit with less accuracy.


They totally are. To the point of "throwing them in a swamp and pulling them out four days later and it'll still work" kind of reliable.

QUOTE (thorya @ Feb 2 2013, 03:53 AM) *
Hey, when M16s jam, they become perfectly usable clubs! How's that for reliability? smile.gif


So THAT'S why Urist McDwarf has such a high Clubs skill!
(Bonus points for reference)
phlapjack77
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Feb 2 2013, 04:45 PM) *
Fixed that for you. AKs are one of the most reliable weapons on this planet, albeit with less accuracy.

Thanks - I'm definitely not a gun person.
Stahlseele
so, who wished for cyberdecks to make a comeback then?
Lionhearted
As long as it's just flavour retconning and not some kind of "Crash 3.0 everything is wired again" kind of deal, I'm fine either way. Decker have a nice ring to it...
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 2 2013, 01:30 PM) *
so, who wished for cyberdecks to make a comeback then?
You'd rather Mungo the Skript Kiddie?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 2 2013, 07:24 PM) *
You'd rather Mungo the Skript Kiddie?

with you writing him, it'd not be as bad . .
CanadianWolverine
My wishlist is small but not necessarily simple:

Make version 5 a online multiplayer "virtual table top" PC Game. That would be the core books and extra books would then be expansion packs / DLC and I would always have people to play with.

Lucky for me there are few options coming out hopefully, so I hope despite being in the boonies I will one day get to regularily play Shadowrun.
Pepsi Jedi
My wishlist is small too.

1) Keep the flavor. I love the flavor of Shadowrun. Don't try and mess with that.
2) Do NOT turn it into "WoW on the table" Where you have one tank, one healer, and DPS'ers. A) It's already been done and B) I've GOT wow. I don't need it again.
3) GOOD ART. This is part of number one but needs to be restated. GOOD art can make or break a game. There's nothing like reading along, immersed in the fluff, then you get to a picture and what you were reading about, be it a Metatype, monster, machine gun or machine, has art that looks STUPID, or just all around crappy. More times than not in the past, Shadowrun has had pretty good art, but there's some out there, that when you look at it you go 'Wow, my kid (Or kid brother) Can do better than THIS. I think metahumanity especially needs some really nice "Base art" (( And the meta variants as well. The art in 4E's Companion for the metavariants largely sucked))
4) Don't re-invent the wheel. Yes, it's a new edition. I get it. Game companies now make new editions to keep the company going. There's the urge to remake the universe every time. You don't have to. Keep what works.
5) Be aware of what has come before. This is probably the hardest. The way Shadowrun works, is that the Metaplot keeps going. Every book it inches forward. I'm sure somewhere over there, they have a 'setting bible' that they can reference to see what's been WRITTEN about XY nd Z and what they KNOW about XY and Z.. Don't forget that. (( and if there's not, god take a few weeks and make one.)) Don't suddenly have char's changing personality out of the blue to do things they'd never do, don't have them contridict their own pasts, ect. That deep "History" and metaplot is a huge draw of the game.

As for the mechanics... points 1 and 4 pretty much have me covered there.

I do like technomancers. Just make them work right.
And I DO think if you have a big ol cyberdeck that you plug into your head, it should be alot better than your watch with some glue on feeds. As someone else pointed out. Decks need to be like cutting bleeding edge desktops that can kick down walls. Commlinks are more like Ipads. They do what 99.9% of the population want in day to day life, but isn't something you're going to hack Evo or Ares with.
Umidori
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Feb 2 2013, 05:45 PM) *
3) GOOD ART. This is part of number one but needs to be restated. GOOD art can make or break a game. There's nothing like reading along, immersed in the fluff, then you get to a picture and what you were reading about, be it a Metatype, monster, machine gun or machine, has art that looks STUPID, or just all around crappy. More times than not in the past, Shadowrun has had pretty good art, but there's some out there, that when you look at it you go 'Wow, my kid (Or kid brother) Can do better than THIS. I think metahumanity especially needs some really nice "Base art" (( And the meta variants as well. The art in 4E's Companion for the metavariants largely sucked))

Yeah, RC has some astoundingly bad art, and the metavariants is a perfect example of it. Which is weird, because RC also has some very nice art, too.

Like, you have the Changeling section picture, which is actually pretty nice, and then you have the Infected section just a little further down and it's just painful, terrible rendering, a completely different style, sloppy shading added in post.... and then you go back to the nice art again with the Sapiant Critters...?

~Umi
Lionhearted
Utterly adore the art in Unwired, The first chapter is the kind of standard I wish all SR art held, the TM chapter is kinda neat to... the rest is sufficient, only really subpar art I can find is the sprites, even then most of them have really cool concepts. it really sells the awesome side of hacking decking (better get used to it again)
CanRay
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 2 2013, 08:18 PM) *
...the awesome side of hacking decking (better get used to it again)
Bull doing his happy dance is a thing to behold, let me tell you.
Lionhearted
I didn't know Bull could be cheery eek.gif that's kind of terrifying
Stahlseele
and the dancing can't be good for his ankles either . .
Bull
It's more of a chair dance these days, where I sit here and wave my arms around. And it's the knees that are the problem, not the ankles. Arthritis in both does that to an old ork. :/

As for Decking and what it means for 5th ed, well... I expect Jason will touch on that soon.

Bull
All4BigGuns
I'd kind of like to see the playtest stuff.
_Pax._
Dude, Arthritis? That's so ... pre-awakening. Seriously, they make replacement parts for a reason, you know! ;D
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Feb 2 2013, 10:24 PM) *
Dude, Arthritis? That's so ... pre-awakening. Seriously, they make replacement parts for a reason, you know! ;D


*hefts a sledge hammer* Want I should help you know how he feels? nyahnyah.gif
_Pax._
Eh, I could already use some rplacement knees and maybe hips, myself. And shoulders. My eyes aren't what they used to be either. And the ulnar nerve in my left arm has been acting up lately.

...

Aw heck, I need a full-body replacement job, who'm I kidding? Someone got forty million nuyen and the number of a good Delta clinic, they can give me? ^_^
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Feb 2 2013, 10:52 PM) *
Eh, I could already use some rplacement knees and maybe hips, myself. And shoulders. My eyes aren't what they used to be either. And the ulnar nerve in my left arm has been acting up lately.

...

Aw heck, I need a full-body replacement job, who'm I kidding? Someone got forty million nuyen and the number of a good Delta clinic, they can give me? ^_^


Right there with ya. With my back, I could use a cyber torso, and with my kneecaps that can slide out of place all the way toward the right, I could probably use the legs as well. Not to mention my right eye being ninety different shades of effed up.

I feel old at times...especially since I saw on Facebook that a girl I graduated with was asked by her niece if we had trampolines when we were kids.
CanRay
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Feb 3 2013, 12:28 AM) *
*hefts a sledge hammer* Want I should help you know how he feels? nyahnyah.gif
*Looks at my shattered elbow* Not as funny as it used to be...
Sengir
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Feb 3 2013, 05:24 AM) *
Dude, Arthritis? That's so ... pre-awakening. Seriously, they make replacement parts magical cure-all nanotech for a fraction of the price for a reason, you know! ;D

I'm sure there is some, brave new SR...
Larsine
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Feb 3 2013, 12:45 AM) *
My wishlist is small too.

5) Be aware of what has come before. This is probably the hardest. The way Shadowrun works, is that the Metaplot keeps going. Every book it inches forward. I'm sure somewhere over there, they have a 'setting bible' that they can reference to see what's been WRITTEN about XY nd Z and what they KNOW about XY and Z.. Don't forget that. (( and if there's not, god take a few weeks and make one.)) Don't suddenly have char's changing personality out of the blue to do things they'd never do, don't have them contridict their own pasts, ect. That deep "History" and metaplot is a huge draw of the game.

Do you seriously know how big that 'setting bible' would be?

As a proofreader I ofter refer to old books, and I'm sure the writers do aswell, but even with access to everything published, things still fall through the cracks, and we do everything we can to avoid it. But thinking it would take a few weeks to make a 'setting bible' is just silly.

sk8bcn
Well, at least, following one a little bit could be nice. Ancient History's site was a jewel IMO.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Larsine @ Feb 4 2013, 10:36 AM) *
Do you seriously know how big that 'setting bible' would be?

As a proofreader I ofter refer to old books, and I'm sure the writers do aswell, but even with access to everything published, things still fall through the cracks, and we do everything we can to avoid it. But thinking it would take a few weeks to make a 'setting bible' is just silly.


*Holds up his thumb* Probably about this big? Thumb drive size?

If even that big and not a file that could be transferred or mailed 100% digitally? I've about 600 to 700 RPG PDF's on both my Ipads and my desk top. If my Ipads can hold that many (each), transferal of information isn't THAT hard.

I'll guess you mean 'how much information would need to be in it'. To answer your question. Yes. I have an idea. I have about 95.. 96% of the published (English) Shadowrun books, both hard copy and the ones that are just digital. I'm further aware of the few I don't physically or digitally possess. I'm aware that there's been alot that's come before. Yes as you say somethings still fall through the cracks.

I'm saying try and keep that at a minimum. If you're writing along and are going to use Kane, Devgirl, Bull and Frosty, take a bit of time to check into the characters. Do word searches in the PDFs to see when their names come up and read their posting style and where they've been and what they've done. Be aware of the big points in the metaplot. Check dates. ect. smile.gif

Clearly you can't reference 100% of the books for every single thing you write, but if you're writing on a topic, you can go and see what was written on that topic hither-before now, and incorporate it, or build off of it. smile.gif

I also said this would be one of the hardest things to do, but from a customer/player/fan's standpoint. It's important to me. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's important to others. Some of us have been at this for years and years, some of the 'characters' in these books have 'grown up' with us. lol They're almost like old friends (( And enemies.. ohhh I wanna kill Clockwork so bad...))
nezumi
A good number of Shadowrun books are not available in a searchable format. And even if they were, what that leaves you with is a stack of 60 pdfs. So every time you're going to do something on insect spirits, what are you going to do? Search 'bugs' across each book and see what sticks?

I do agree with you that a giant cross-indexed wiki, or at least a reference list, would be pretty handy. You're working on Insect spirits? Check the list and it tells you which books to read. A reference list like that would take at least 2-3 weeks, and it will always have gaps. The wiki would be a labor of love. It would likely take years, especially given the poor condition of most 1e and 2e books.
sk8bcn
So true, but it would be so nice!
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2013, 10:06 AM) *
A good number of Shadowrun books are not available in a searchable format. And even if they were, what that leaves you with is a stack of 60 pdfs. So every time you're going to do something on insect spirits, what are you going to do? Search 'bugs' across each book and see what sticks?

I do agree with you that a giant cross-indexed wiki, or at least a reference list, would be pretty handy. You're working on Insect spirits? Check the list and it tells you which books to read. A reference list like that would take at least 2-3 weeks, and it will always have gaps. The wiki would be a labor of love. It would likely take years, especially given the poor condition of most 1e and 2e books.


Do you have to go through them all? No, but you really want to look at ones that pertain to your topic, like bug city, etc. If you're writing for publication in the Shadowrun world you should have enough of a grasp of what's come before that you at least have a hint that you should look in Bug City and such instead of Rigger 2 and Rigger 3, or Celtic Double cross. I.E. No you don't HAVE to look through EVERY book, but you should look through the ones with bug stuff in them. smile.gif

The other option is add hoc just writing stuff and crossing one's fingers that it doesn't directly contridict what's come before. Something I think we can all agree is not what we want in our 'new' published materials.
nezumi
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Feb 5 2013, 02:06 PM) *
Do you have to go through them all? No, but you really want to look at ones that pertain to your topic, like bug city, etc. If you're writing for publication in the Shadowrun world you should have enough of a grasp of what's come before that you at least have a hint that you should look in Bug City and such instead of Rigger 2 and Rigger 3, or Celtic Double cross. I.E. No you don't HAVE to look through EVERY book, but you should look through the ones with bug stuff in them. smile.gif


Well that's a question of hiring experienced freelancers, and a quality line developer. I agree 100% with that, even WITH a Shadowrun lore bible.

Ultimately, a lore bible really would be a good investment. If Shadowrun survives another ten years, it will be hurting.

Honestly, the best solution may be to put some more resources into filling out the Sixth World Wiki. Fans will do a lot of work for you, with very little reward, and what's already there is great.
Patrick Goodman
This would seem an appropriate time for you to pimp the URL of the 6th World Wiki.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Feb 5 2013, 12:56 PM) *
This would seem an appropriate time for you to pimp the URL of the 6th World Wiki.


I'd buy that for a Dollar. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2013, 04:50 PM) *


The top result is the wiki on Wikia, which is awful. The one that was hosted on Dumpshock was amazing, but it is currently offline.
Bull
My only complaint with the DUmpshock WIki was that there was no oversight. People were adding in their own home-brewed information without marking it as such. I did a search on there a few years back about Miami, I think it was, an area that got briefly touched on in Cyberpirates I believe, but wanted to see if there were references from other books I should check out. Instead, the WIki had a TON of information, but none of it came from any official source material that I could find, and some of it outright contradicted what little info I was aware of.

So if a Wiki is suspect on one front, you have to assume it's suspect on all fronts. And that makes it completely unreliable. frown.gif

Me, I have every SR book available on PDF, a few that officially aren't (mostly non-OCR ones), plus a near complete library ona shelf next to my desk. Any time I work on a project, there inevitably ends up being a half dozen books stacked up next to my keyboard. Right now, I have Target: UCAS, Bug City, Feral Cities, Neo-A's Guide to North America, Conspiracy Theories, SHadowrun 2050, Arsenal, Artifacts Unbound, and Anarchy Subsidized all piled up next to me, for example.

Bull
Sengir
The English wiki is pretty messed up...the German one is far better maintained, but that won't help most freelancers...
Bull
I've used teh German one on occassion, though Google Translate only gets me so far smile.gif But mainly I use it to see if I can find book references to help me narrow down searches. There's some very odd places that info can be tucked in at. My prime example is when I wrote up Kane's bio for Street Legends Supplemental. I dug through every book I had trying to find any info on him, and it turned out that the biggest source of backstory was a book I would have NEVER thought to look in, because I'd completely forgotten it even had Shadowtalk: the Shadowrun Companion for 2nd Edition.

Thankfully Fastjack over on the official boards has a PDF compilation that lists every Shadowtalker and page references for all their comments. That was a HUGE help.

(And as a note, we do have a Freelancer Shadowrun WIki we use. But it's not really that extensive, sadly. Some of us add to it when we can, but between life, day jobs, and freelancing, it's tough to find the time to do much.)

Bull
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Bull @ Feb 5 2013, 06:40 PM) *
My only complaint with the DUmpshock WIki was that there was no oversight. People were adding in their own home-brewed information without marking it as such. I did a search on there a few years back about Miami, I think it was, an area that got briefly touched on in Cyberpirates I believe, but wanted to see if there were references from other books I should check out. Instead, the WIki had a TON of information, but none of it came from any official source material that I could find, and some of it outright contradicted what little info I was aware of.

So if a Wiki is suspect on one front, you have to assume it's suspect on all fronts. And that makes it completely unreliable. frown.gif

Me, I have every SR book available on PDF, a few that officially aren't (mostly non-OCR ones), plus a near complete library ona shelf next to my desk. Any time I work on a project, there inevitably ends up being a half dozen books stacked up next to my keyboard. Right now, I have Target: UCAS, Bug City, Feral Cities, Neo-A's Guide to North America, Conspiracy Theories, SHadowrun 2050, Arsenal, Artifacts Unbound, and Anarchy Subsidized all piled up next to me, for example.

Bull


See!! This is -exactly- what I meant! If you're gonna work, make sure you see what's come before so you don't screw up new stuff. smile.gif
nezumi
I don't think anyone questioned Bull's qualities as a diligent freelancer wink.gif
Bull
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 6 2013, 09:17 AM) *
I don't think anyone questioned Bull's qualities as a diligent freelancer wink.gif


You might be surprised. smile.gif

There's an old maxim that says you don't work in the gaming industry to make money. This is closely followed by "Don't work in the gaming industry unless you can take unfounded, uninformed abuse." smile.gif

For me, the tears of fanboys are sweet, sweet nectar. So it works out.

Bull
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Bull @ Feb 6 2013, 09:36 AM) *
You might be surprised. smile.gif

Might?
QUOTE
For me, the tears of fanboys are sweet, sweet nectar. So it works out.

I'm not there yet, but I certainly understand the sentiment.
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