Isn't grey goo kind of an outmoded scenario? Suppose it could happen in the 6th world, with the 80's vibes n'all

if you have cutter nanites and a nanoforge/nanite breeder, you can, potentially, make your own grey goo scenario . .
maybe some builder nanites to make more breeders/nanoforge, otherwise perfectly doable . .

My point is:
A metallic machine is not going to out-fitness biological life. For one, green goo is based on carbon, not iron.

...which in case of TMs is the "bioelectric field". Pseudoscientific bullshit? Sure. Otaku with wireless Datajacks and without Fading would be better? No contest. But they are no magic.

@Pepsi: Trolls have disproportionally long arms, but it doesn't say how long they are exactly. But if you want to give it a try, here you go: http://fileflush.com/file/9417/metahuman-sizes2.svg.html


And don't get me started on nanobots...I've not even mentioned it in this thread so far, because I gave up all hope of that ever making sense long ago

An idea I've seen in a critic for SR 4 and that I find really good:

Advices on standart equipment. Ok you may check the archetype, but it would be nice if you had some advices on which gear you should buy (smart link, cyberware, what mages usually need).


Most time, the newcommers really struggle at this stage of the game. Going through so many pages of equipment is difficult when you are just starting.

Little surprise, given how the German publisher maintains it.


There's a lot of (pretty bizarre) Info on Miami in Shadowboxer. Some of that article'S stuff might just be that. However, lclearly marking canonicity of a source should be imperative.

Since the beginning of the year, but the Helix has been the better resource for a long time

(Sorry if this was said earlier, but I skipped the last 4 pages or so)
I'd like to see a cap on Magic and Resonance. They are the only things in the game that I have seen that are not limited. I'd suggest limiting Initiation/Submersion to a number of grades equal to Essence (round down). *However* I would also suggest making Power Foci move back to the older version of adding directly to attribute (creating an augmented attribute that is subject to the normal rules for such).

I also liked most of Sage2000's suggestions. Except I think the "Automatics" skill needs to go away. Put Pistols & SMG's in a "Small Arms" skill; Shotguns, Rifles, Assault Rifles and Battle Rifles into "Long Arms"; LMG, MMG, HMG, Cannons, and launchers into "Heavy Weapons". Allow sepcialization to include fire mode as applicable.

Just my 2¥
-D

I find that would contradict some background elements were Immortal elves had so strong magic capabilities.

I had a work colleague who's wife gave the reason she wanted an iMac was, "It's blue!"

The irony to me about this conversation is that Shadowrun was one of the game books that back in the day majorly raised the bar on production quality in RPGs. Most books produced back then had interiors that looked like they had been output from a typewriter and xeroxed, with artwork done using a felt tip marker. Which wasn't too far from the truth - at that time most RPGs were being made by folks who mostly had little to no experience with publishing layout or graphic design.

Then FASA and White Wolf entered the scene, with gorgeous color books and snazzy layouts. People were like, "Wow! RPGs don't have to look like something put together by teenagers!", and the whole industry was pretty much forced to adapt or get left behind.



-k

*cough*Palladium*cough*

I love their games, but reading through the original RIFTS core book or TMNT book needed Advil and Scotch.

You realize they produce books 100% the same today?

I've got them all, I'm a fan, but they have abjectly refused to update in anyway. They're still a color cover, glued black and white pages. It was about 2002 before they went to digital layout but if you pick up an original Rifts book or TMNT book and open up their latest book that they put out, they're 100% the same way.

Oh yeah! And I do, I love their books, but there's such a gap between their color art and their old fashion pen art. Playing Palladium Fantasy for a while was strange because there is no standard character sheet or anything, so the GM was asking us to roll things, and we were: "Really? There's a roll for that? Where? Oh, I think it's here? There? No there! Here? Oh...maybe not." Ugh... Playing those games are fun, but reading them is a chore.

Could always make Immortal Elves and Dragons have a racial ability to exceed the limit. They are NPCs after all.

-D

My Rules are Not Your Rules is really, really shitty gameplay, especially in a tabletop RPG.

Honestly, to be fair, Palladium is just now getting back on their feet from some...issues...they had with a former employee. Not to mention that the "not as fancy" books enable them to be able to generally charge less than most companies.

ShadowDragon8685,
If this is directed at me (and only IF) then player characters should have access to Twist of Fate too (using that logic). If the statement was not directed at me, then please disregard.



-D

Those 'issues' happened years and years ago. The incidents happened between 2002 and 2004. It was April 2006 when they basically announced it all and pointed to the guy. The incident is used still today a decade later as reasoning behind late books and problems. I've got years worth of Mailings and such citing it as their problem. It should be noted that Kevin/Palladium claimed that the guy was able to steal $850,000 to $1,300,000 worth of product and embezzled money, and noone knew for 4 years because they'd never taken inventory. Many find this extremely hard to believe, due to just how many books would have to be missing from a warehouse, and funds from accounts in a company with __6__ people working there to add up to eight hundred and fifty thousand to one point three million in theft/embezzlement and the owner not having a clue. Also it should be noted that the guy was given a plea and only made to pay back __$47,080__ got a misdemeanor and a year's probation. Considering how much was claimed, the sentence and restitution didn't ring true with the claims of how much was lost either.

Not for nothing but Shadowrun had 'issues' of similar kind and is doing just fine. (( I remember. I got an official warning here for calling the guy an unkind name. Two... three years ago?))

Those 'issues' didn't make Kevin and Palladium retain it's format from the early 80s that they still use today. Or it's abysmal release schedule to the point that many of their distributors dropped them, because they (Palladium) Couldn't even hit their own release dates, usually with in the same YEAR as they claimed things would be out. Currently they have my money, for two crowd-sourced projects from early last summer, and they're not even working on the books yet. They took the money then shelved work on the books for almost a year now, and they still haven't gotten to them. In the meantime though, the company has taken out loans to try and start a Robotech tactical mini game. While sitting on about $40,000 from fans for books they've yet to produce.

As for their books being less than most companies... ehh... kinda sorta. 1) They don't sell on Amazon. So you have a few choices. A) Find a game store that carries them, few and far between, as pointed out, many distributors dropped them because they can't hit with in months of their own self imposed release dates, if not the same year. Or years late. Many game stores/game store owners think the company has gone out of business years ago. You can find testimonials to that on their own forums board. More than half the fans there can't find a store or beg a store to carry the product, due to that release stuff or that the owners think the company is dead. B) Order straight from the company. Which I tend to do, This has it's own problem. They use some arcane method of shipping fees. I live in MI, where Palladium is housed, and if I order a simple 160 page book for $18 the shipping is every bit of $16 to $18. In the same state. I've sent large christmas boxes across the country for far less, but a soft cover black and white 160 page book costs as much to ship, as the cover price. So... it might be priced $18, on the website, but it's $34+ if you buy it from the company, depending on their shipping. I can show you invoices to that extent as well. lol or C) Find the stuff used on Ebay or Amazon 'sellers'. Where in the quality comes into question. The books have good content but the quality isn't there. the covers curl and 'peel' after minimal use. I have every book they've published except for... 4 I think? Maybe 5, I treat them well but yeah I've had to go back and order seconds, or thirds of most of the main books due to the durability (most are soft cover books at 8 by 11. they don't hold up well). Which brings it to the last point. The fact that other Game books CAN be found on Amazon. Shadowrun, Pathfinder, etc, the Palladium books are NOT really that much of a value if at all. Pathfinder Core book, Hard back, full color, glossy pages, cover to cover, 576 pages long. $31.49 off Amazon, every day of the week. Free shipping with prime.
Palladium's most recent release, Robotech Genisis Pits Sourcebook, Softcover, black and white, 112 pages, $16.95, with $14 shipping in the same state, for a total of $31.

I love Palladium's worlds.(and yes I know about the power creep and ability to mini/max, twink to ungodly levels. Our groups refrain from such)) I started with After the Bomb for TMNT. I own most every book they've ever produced. I even introduced my sons to RPGs using Palladium's books and systems. I just don't fool myself to their faults.

I like the books, but if you open them up to any modern RPG's except maybe Munchkin (( which is a parody anyway)) They look a generation or two behind, and due to their problems with distribution and game stores even knowing they exist, their cost is more than just cover and not 'low' on the scale.

With cost, I was thinking "on the shelf" price, which I've most often seen around 20 to 25 dollars for one of their books as opposed to 30 to 40 dollars for most other games/systems with some (I'm looking hard at you Dark Heresy) being ludicrously overpriced.

I'd rather have a simple looking book for 25 dollars than have to pay 35 dollars for a "fancy-pants" book.

It was. And in fact, I agree with that statement. Either PCs should have access to Twist Fate, or nobody should.*

It's one thing for Dragons to be huge fucking monsters that are super-beefy. That's a matter of them being mega-huge and mega-tough, and it's not out-of-the-question to imagine that the players might be dragons, if the game supported it.

It's not even out of the question to imagine that very old, very powerful magicians have lots and lots of Initiate ranks. After all, they got to be very old and very powerful for a reason.

But to say that's a feat the PCs are blanket incapable of because they aren't the right splat/race is assinine, as is giving the dragons the ability to influence core game mechanics in unfair ways that nobody else can.

The rules should be the same for everyone. If you can't hack it because you lack sufficient XP/resources/magic/technology/backup/whatever, that's one thing. But being unable to hack it because they're just playing with different rules than you are is assinine. XP can be gained, resources can be gained (or the other guy's resources can be destroyed,) magic, technology, and backup can be gained, or the other guy's magic can be suppressed by creative means, their backup can be neutralized creatively or directly, influenced to abandon their cause, etcetera, and you can get your hands on cutting-edge tech, or do something sneaky to neutralize the other guy's tech.

But letting them just screw with core game mechanics? You might as well just say that a dragon eats 1d6 player characters a round without need to roll, and the player characters in question are entitled to absolutely no means to defend themselves from this, including the Hand of God.

Dragons are dangerous enough, they don't need Twist Fate any more than they need to score a hit on a 4 or a 3.

*Twist Fate is assy, so I'd say nobody should get it.

As a collector and a fan of Palladium since I was 13. I wish I could find them on the shelf. You're not 'wrong' if you look at exact shelf price, (Assuming you can find them in a store) They are cheaper than some RPG's out there. ((Again assuming you buy them in the store at full price))

I personally haven't bought an RPG off the shelf in years. (( Half being no RPG stores where I live, the other half being i can get them for 30% or more cheaper through Amazon and only wait 2 days.))

The combination of not being able to find them (palladium books) 'on the shelf' in years, and the other companies selling via Amazon (( or even better yet PDF)) the 'actual' costs differ.

But you are not 'wrong' as per the 'on the shelf cost'.

Thank you. I can see your point, and it is well though out. I don't agree, but I do think you have valid points. I don't have a problem with unique abilities assigned to specific race or category of beings, however I can see that other might. My thoughts on the wish list still stand, after all it is a wish list.

-D

Me not. I'm totally disappointed each time I buy a Moongoose product when I see the quality of other books. And I'm willing to pay more for that. Heck, I'm even willing to pay for gold editions



I do think that pdf is a good alternative solution for people that wanna spend less.

So then you'd be in favor of equalizing other non-playables, like Cyberzombies, Paracritters, Cyborgs, Twisted Path Mages and Adepts, and the like?

Players are incapable of surviving with less than 0 Essence? How assinine! They lack access to Critter Powers and their benefits? Absurd! They can't have their brains be put into jars and hooked up to drones? Outright stupid! They can't learn Twisted magics and metamagics and adept powers? Idiotic!

I don't understand where you're coming from. You're fine with countless other splat/race based powers, but for some reason Twist Fate just torques you off?

~Umi

I would like non-augmented mundanes to be viable in some way perhaps a higher edge cap or something.

I would always select an exponential xp-cost rather than hard caps. Anyway, the request you formulate IMO, is so easy to house rule anyway.

Actually, I gave my players the option in one campaign to have a ritual done which would give one of them Twist of Fate. It had been originally a ritual used by dragons to enhance their abilities, but got stolen by an elf who had used it on himself. The catch? Since it was intended for dragons - if you use the ritual, you don't get your normal Edge uses, and your Edge only recovers by pulling it out of other people. You touch them, their edge drops by one, you get a point of Edge back. The Edge loss manifests as bad luck -- the more Edge you take, the more horrific the bad luck manifests as. The problem is that ANY skin-on-skin contact will trigger Edge siphoning if you aren't at full Edge. You can't prevent it from happening.

It was interesting to see the PCs considering this -- since all the PCs were in relationships, they declined.

Cyberzombies, Cyborgs, Twisted magicians and adepts, and (sapient) paracritters are not, in fact, things that players can't be, they're just not expected to be. There's no reason they can't be, it just changes the nature of the game. Hell, I'm in a game right now with two Free Spirits in the crew. There are rules for things like cyberzombies and cyborgs that would only matter if it were a player running them, for instance.

And moreover, none of them have powers/abilities that break the core mechanics of the game. The core game mechanics expect that your Edge score is sacrosanct, and your choices to spend Edge to its detailed uses matter. Then along comes Twist Fate and says "Yeah, lolno." Which is asinine.




How about you stop twisting what I'm saying and deliberately being obtuse about my point, hmmm? Most other things are things that PCs can be, they're just not likely to be. Hell, even Dragons are something PCs might be, but Twist Fate is fucked-up because it fucks with core game mechanics. It's an ability that says "My rules are not your rules," and it might as well be "A Dragon eats 1d6 player characters per round."

They are viable... I am currently playing one in our Shadowrun game. And his Edge is a peasly 2. *shrug*

While I agree that if an NPC can do something, in theory a PC should too -In theory-.

It's not however a problem that both doesn't follow the same mechanics. Many pulp style games gives some NPC mooks stats (7th Sea, Savage Worlds).

What I don't agree with is powers that "twist" game rules. An horror or spirit able to syphon edge or nullify it doesn't seem more unlogical to me than a ghost that could make you age in seconds. It's just a power among others.



Y a know, Cthulhu used to tramble 1d4+1 humans per round. I've never had an heart attack for that (It was pretty pointless tough).

I don't understand what "viable" means, here. It's not an PvP game. Either you wanna max or have a strong character, either you just have fun roleplaying.

And if it's that, a mundane non-augmented is quite a nice choice anyway.

The setting kind of supports this, though.

Consider: what if getting initiate grades above your Essence, or maybe 2xEssence, requires a dramatically higher Mana level throughout the world, than we currently have today? Those Immortal Elves, and the Great Dragons? They had access to said Mana Levels at one time, and could have gained their extraordinary Initiate grades then.

You could even posit that an artificially-inflated mana level today might, carefully and expensively applied, permit initiation past that first "ceiling" - into the 2x or 3x range. Say, an aspected BGC of 10 or 20, an outright Mana Warp really, but focussed "just so" by Geomasonry or Geomancy and used "just so" via a ritual with a sizeable number of participants (and maybe the leader needs geomancy/geomasonry, too? Or worse,all participants?). And then chage double Karma for the initiation.

IOW, brutally prohibitive ... but possible.

...

Also remember that, if you subscribe to "Earthdawn was the 4th world", those Immortal Elves were "adepts" of that age - and their current status, even as "megapowerful" Initiates, is probably tothem but a pale shadow of what they had once achieved.


You mean, like being an Insect Shaman, or Poisoner tradition mage? Just sayin' ...

There are 3 reasons not to have 'ware in SR
1) Awakened - loss of magic.
2) Poor - can't afford it but will buy stuff if they get the money.
3) Moral Objections - people with this sort of objection are unlikely to be runners.

So playing a mundane without 'ware either means I had no money and this state won't last past a few runs or I have moral objections to altering people and am unlikely to want to work with people who have it so 90%+ of runners.

Edit: I also wasn't specifically saying give them more edge I want them to have something that can bring them in line - perhaps if skills can only be brought to 12 even with augmentation so adepts and people with control rig boosters can get their driving skills to 8 and then beef them to 12 whereas a unauged mundane has to pay the karma to get it up there.

You could just have an issue with having 'ware in YOU. Dirk did/does, and he's still a pretty decent 'runner.

Yeah, sensitive system, nano intolerance, and if you're willing to compromise a TEENSY bit on bioware, pick up just two minor things (say, Biotattoo and Clean Metabolism - 4,000¥ and 0.1E between them both, and neither would be especially easy to take back OUT ...), and get Biosystem Overstress.

Blammo, 50 extra BP, and a very good reason to have very little, or almost NO, augments. Of any sort.