I don't think it was anything of note, it just let the admins know that the images are misconfigured to show.

Basically, yes, i remember one or two people being pretty surprised when i could make a picture show up ^^

Oh right, I forgot about pixies because I don't have Runner's Companion for 4E, if that's what it is in.

And when I see pixie, i think Toot-toot.

I wish. I want to run around Seattle with a T'skrang SO BAD, you guys.

~Umi

Surge for the Win!

It is Indeed...

Don't you mean Major General Toot-Toot Minimus, Major Domo of the Za Lord?

I've tried, and I can't seem to make it work well.

How do you represent the "snout" of a T'skrang? The "Beak" quality isn't quite right, especially as T'skrang have teeth. One solution I've seen is to use the "Deformity" negative quality, but I'm not sure how I feel about that. T'skrang aren't "misformed", they just have a different (but entirely functional) form, while "Deformity" clearly indicates an impairment to either sensory or motor functions, neither of which a T'skrang would have.

Gills are problematic, because while T'skrang do have them, they only allow them to breathe underwater for about ten minutes, whereas the "Gills" quality allows indefinite submersion. Then to accurately portray a T'skrang's tail, you somehow need to combine the three advanced metagenic Tail qualities into one - "Paddle Tail" gives the appropriate swimming bonus, "Prehensile Tail" gives the bonus to balance and the ability to use it as an extra limb, and "Thagomizer" gives the capacity to use the tail as a weapon, all traits which T'skrang tails possess.

(It also doesn't help that the "Thagomizer" is poorly worded and probably incorrectly priced. It describes a thagomizer as "a powerfully muscled prehensile tail which ends in an array of dermal spikes (or a club)" [emphasis mine], but it costs the exact same 10 BP as the prehensile tail quality. Add to this the fact that the "Functional Tail" category into which all of these qualities fall lists a range of BP costs from 5 to 15, but there isn't a variety listed that actually costs 15 BP, and it's entirely unclear what the intended reading of the rules was.)

And I don't even know where to begin if I wanted to play the "K'stulaami" T'skrang subrace, who "possess a flap of skin much like a flying squirrel's patagium, allowing them to glide".

~Umi

A Snout is a descriptive quality, not a mechanical one.
As for the Tail... Pay 15, take the Best one, and describe it. Simple.
Never heard of the subrace.

I have seen T'Skrang style surged characters, I just do not remember much about them. Wish I could help more.

And if you want something better, go play GURPS, which has rules for g*d d*mn ev*rything.
(No joke. You can pick a gender from the following list, all of which are considered 0-point qualities: male, female, male-to-female transgender, female-to-male transgender, XXY hermaphrodite--i.e. not reproductively functional, aphrodite-hermaphrodite--i.e. reproductively functional for both genders, male neuter, female neuter, and genderless).

For T'skrang look at the NPC Simon Andrews in Missions Season 4
Surge III, Scales (green lizard skin), Unusual Hair (lizard frill, no body hair), Deformity (elongated skull resembling a snout), functional tail (balance), claws (non-retractable), fangs

Yea that's him, but I'm only up to Grave Peril in my latest read through, so he's not there yet.

He level grinds in badass. But, then again, all of Harry's associates do.

Indeed... he is an awesome Pixie. Almost as good as Jenks.

My hopes for 5th are few as I liked 4th after a few home rules. My wish list is:

*The new edition does away with the skill cap which was at least hinted at in the later books of 4th.
*That 5th from the start does not make the whole game about street level play.
*That they do move the time line forward significantly (20+ years.) This was mentioned as an idea on the board with a hundred year leap but I just don't see them doing that.
*They introduce a significant long running foe other than the Mega's. I know the Horrors are out because of Earthdawn being owned by someone else but how about something like the insect spirits or better yet the real Selie Courts? They would have the raw power to make the mega's think twice but they would prefer playing with people by making deals. Kinda a spirity megacorporation, two in fact.
*The mentioned fix to hacking/decking.
*A return of the significance between mage and shaman would be nice.

Hm, Déjà lisais?

Déjà lu

(sounds better to my ears )

I've forgotten most of french grammar and went for the one that seemed most probable.

Come to think of it, there is one more thing I want.
Decent pregens, both for PCs and NPCs.

I'll settle for pregens that follow the damn rules.

The archetype characters may not be "optimized", but they are still functional characters.

This....

Mayhap so, but it irks me when they aren't built according to the same rules from-scratch characters use.

I don't see where they're not "built under the same rules".

IIRC (I haven't run the numbers myself), they are not precisely 400 bp.

Exactly that.

Most of them are under-spent, IIRC. And they don't even have the courtesy to say "oh, and this one still has 13BP unspent, if you want something more".

Try inputting them into whichever generator you have. I suspect these claims are the result of mistakes in calculating what was spent. (I have another theory, but I don't want to be making an attack.)

Hrm. Not sure I want to put that much work into it.

Ooh, 1 point. Big whoop. Put it into loyalty or connection on a contact, or just ignore it. Not like 1 point will make or break a character. Heck, I'm sure plenty of people have underspent by more than that on their own characters and fared just fine.

Edit- Odd...seems the listing disappeared. Did you make a mistake in calculating?

I imagine so - I noticed 'gear' wasn't on the list. I'd presume the street shaman had 5000 nuyen in gear or less, which would make it an even 400.

Ignoring SR5 for a sec, I'll chime in with some secondhand info I've got on the archtype issue (in general, not making excuses for anyone) -- where pre-genned characters are concerned, it's often my understanding that they've been built (and this goes for more than the SR4 ones, and even more than just Shadowrun characters) before the game is "finalized." To many game developers, let's be honest, especially a core system book has higher priorities than worrying about the archetypes. And when it IS a core system book, who KNOWS what stuff gets tweaked at the last minute, after those characters are "done?"

One small edit, one small proofing note, one small change in the last stages? And yeah. Those pregenned dudes can be thrown ALL outta wack. And, if SOME of the developers take some new change into account and others don't, you get really inconsistent characters.

*shrugs*

I'm never surprised when it happens, though I know (as a player) just how irritating it can be when those kind of archetypes are grossly out-of-balance or otherwise break the rules and stuff.

If you bring any of those (or, not to give it up, a character built along the same lines) to any table I know, the first thing you're hearing it "try to focus, chum". They are not functional not only because they're not beating most obstacles shadowrunners face, but because they're not using a lot of the tricks that make shadowrunners' lives easier. You call this "optimization" as if it's something bad, but in fact it's just making characters competent at what they do.
Oh, and let's not forget that a few of these characters are just representing the archetypes players are unlikely to choose. Street ganger (on 400BP), seriously? Occult investigator in a shadowrunner team?

I can't say I'm surprised, but there's an easy way around it: finalize the book, then make the characters. Or, hell, publish a small "character trove" booklet when the core rules are in print already.

I have never seen someone tell me that on any character I have brought to a game. Archetypes in the book are functional. You just do not like them. They are not hte smae thing.

I have played many of the character Archetypes from the Core Book, as have many of the people at our table. I have a long running Ganger Character (from the Book, no less) and an Occult Investigator, that have actively participated in very long campaigns, and quite successfully. Please do not presume to tell me what kind of character fits into a Shadowrunner team.

*shrugs*
Your experiences may be an exception. Generally, runners are professional criminals shooting people in the face for money. Neither turf gangers nor occult investigators fit that concept. Sure, you could build a campaign where they'd be useful and all, but pregens are supposed to be useful for as many games as possible, not for some exceptional ones.

Or, you know, in a wide variety of game styles

I hate to tell someone they're objectively wrong, but you should maybe check out the wonderful line of sponsored and canon novelizations. Wolf and Raven specifically, for one that contains professional shadowrunners who are gangers (a pair of Halloweeners, to be specific), and one who is an occult investigator.

Also a baseball fanatic decker, and a wolf shamanic physical adept.

Remember, chummer, for a number of us a run is a failure the moment a shot is fired in anger. Very different strokes for different folks.

The only thing that really raises my eyebrow eyeridge at the aforementioned archetypes is the occult investigator..

Excuse me, this is a world where magic is real[/] and people [i]blow stuff up with their minds. It's not even a "new" phenomenon. What the h3ll does an occult investigator actually investigate?

Uhm. Finding missing people with spirits or rituals. Reading astral traces. Psychometry. Astral signatures. Etc. pp.
Don't investigate the occult, use the occult to investigate.

This...

"Ganger" is probably more "what you were, than "what you are now". At most, it may be "what you are between runs"

I've got - on the HDD of my dead desktop, argh - a character built on 1,000 Karma. He's fourteen or fifteen years old, and he's a ganger ... or rather, a recently-ex-wiz-ganger. And an IMO pretty scarily effective melee adept, too (yayy, Critical Strike ... and yayy, Elemental Strike (Cold)), despite a Strength of only 2 ... he is a kid, after all. So anyway; despite his youth, he's trying to "move up in the world", it's criminal side at least, and he's elected for the independance of Shadowrunning, rather than joining up with one or another of the crime syndicates.

His ganger recent-past gives him plenty of useful contacts - information, gear, getting rid of gear, going to ground, and so forth. IT also gives him a different understanding of the sprawl - a different kind of "who's who" list, a different internal map of "where belongs to who/wat", and so on. (His youth gives him the ability to blend in to a crowd ... differently, from most other characters. In a mall, for example, who really even SEES the "typical tween/teen" anymore? )

Just playing devils advocate re: the Ganger archetype.

That's the point. A lot of pregens do not work in a variety of game styles, only in a couple of very specific ones.

So there are canonically runners who are also gangers or occult investigators. Nice. That proves what, exactly? There are runners who are also smuggler jet pilots or high-class snipers. Should those be in pregens, too?
Pregens should be useful for the largest number of newbie players possible, like Street Sam, or Rigger, or Technomancer. The everyday stuff that you see in next to every game. And giving them rare specialties and skills that are rarely if ever used is an extremely bad idea, because it defeats the very point of the pregen.

There is no doubt runners can be ex-gangers, just like they can be ex-corpers, ex-military or ex-whatever.
But have you seen that pregen? It's a RL combat character. With Reaction 3, 1 IP, Close Combat Skill Group at 4, Firearms at 3, Scorched, Uneducated, and a BTL dealer and his gang members as his only contacts.
It's not an ex-ganger, it's just that: a ganger. And why should that be a pregen? Will you be seeing that in next to every game? Do you want to deal with qualities like Uneducated with a newbie player?

That fourteen year old wiz-ganger adept I mentioned? His contacts, IIRC (remember, I don't have the file accessible just now) are: his gang as a whole; the leader of that gang; his kind-of girlfriend (very high loyalty) fellow-member of that gang; a Bear-totem Paramed Shaman (written in as the shadowrunner who recognised the kid's talent despite his youth), a street vendor, and a C3/L1 low-level fixer (who the Paramed intro'd the kid to, because he specialises in "newbies").

Not much improved over the Ganger archetype, really. And a chunk of that was only affordable, because the kid is a 1,000-Karmagen build.

And he may be going independant most of the time, but he still knows who is friends are ... his brothers and sisters in the gang. They call for help, he comes to 'em at a dead run.

Uh. See, his gang as a whole, a magic healer, a vendor and a fixer are at least useful (and half of those are essential for a runner). Do you really think that not an improvement over just having "BTL dealer, Gang member, Gang boss"?
Pregens should give new players the general idea of what a viable character should look like. This contact build is as far from that as the rest of the pregen.

Yes, that's the point.
Those 'very specific ones' you mention ... are all valid ones of a wide variety of game styles.
It is not "There is this one baseline where everyone is playing and all pregenerated characters must be able to fit there", but rather "A lot of people play very differently from each other. Let's give 'em some stuff to play around with."

You can't hope to give people stuff to play with for every specific play style, so you necessarily have to go with the builds useful for the most players possible. This is why pregens are there: to help the new players understand what's what, and maybe give them a playable character out of the box.
IP 1 combat characters are not useful for the majority of the players. Neither are combat characters without Dodge (like Gunslinger Adept). Neither "infiltration specialists" with Perception 2.

I disagree with your assertion.
In my opionion, premade characters are there to show new players a spectrum of things to chose from.
Whether they like the mowawk or the shades, is their decision, but archetypes can give you a nice point to go from.

And btw: the gunslinger adept has athletics 3, which includes gymnastics

The new players are better off sticking to the basics, that is, to the common archetypes that are always useful, and that everyone knows how to play. Going with obscure stuff which is hardly obvious how to use in a team (like the occult investigator) can hardly be enjoyable for a player who still has problems getting down the mechanics - those problems are enough by themselves.
I could see additional pregens added when the basics are covered (with competent characters, and not what we got in Core), but then again, aren't we counting every penny spent on the book when discussing adding the production dates to gear? Full-page character illustrations are expensive, as is page space.

Oh right, what can be better for a newbie than getting into a discussion what constitutes a gymnastic dodge and when and how it can be used. Brilliant idea.

You do not need to get dismissive.
You have an opinion, but it's just one opinion. Mine is different, and I enjoy meeting players at conventions who have totally different conceptions than mine. Obscure is always a matter of where you stand.

That's an age-old trick, but the thing is: there is objective truth, and some opinions are closer to it than others.

So, you're telling me that an equal number of games has, say, sammies, mages or hackers and gangers, occult investigators or jet pilots? Or is it, too, "a matter of perspective"?

You seriously want to claim that taste is a matter of 'objective truth'? Feel free, but I'll stop taking you seriously at this point.

There are the archetypes you mention, really vanilla:
Combat Mage, Drone Rigger, Face, Hacker, Shaman (*2 even), Street Samurai, a Technomancer and a Weapons Specialist.
Don't these characters fill just about every 'standard SR character trope' slot?
Why complain about the unusual ones? Do they take something away from the game? Do you need a 2nd type of Street Samurai or a third Shaman? Would that make the game better?

There's a lot to be said about the level of optimization, sure. But the characters ARE there.

Well...
My current Mage character is an Occult Investigator/Ritualist.
We have a Sammie who is also a compulsive Seriel Killer *Shakes Head*.
We have a Driver (not Rigger) who is also a Face.
The Pilot can fly Jets, Yes, as well as Helicopters and posibly any other typical Ground, Air or Water Vehicle. He does drones as well (Rigger)
The Hacker is another Seriel Killer ala Dexter (What is it with this trend?)
The Ganger (now Ex-Ganger) wants to be an Actual Street Samurai (Gettin' there)
The Shinto Priest Ninja (Loads of Fun)
I can go on.

I have played every Archetype in Shadowrun thorugh the Editions. Or are Rockers and Detectives not actual Shadowrunner's either?