I find the b/w art from the old editions much more inspirational and, if you will, "cyberpunkish", instead of the current "generic bright future" feel in AE.

We'd be agreeing if
was how market equilibrium works, but it's not.


It's not imperfect, it's horrible. A lot of stuff in War! can't be used as written at all because it's either mechanically absurd, ruins verisimilitude or just fails to scale with the rest of the system. I believe we've been over this numerous times, though.


Get a microdrone with optical tap.
In my opinion, if there's a way to return to wires, it's lowering reaction (to represent lag) and limiting transfer speeds (to represent quite final bandwidth) when hacking over wireless.

The benefit with doing this in a new edition is that it doesn't *necessarily* have to agree with previous editions, only with itself. If it's internally consistent and fits the intended use, (namely, allowing GMs to choose from different time periods in the 6th world,) then it's golden. It would up the word count a good bit to have things like "After crash 2.0, the use of ____ dropped off significantly," but I think it's worth the words.

That's because the point, the real reason to do this work, is to open up the setting's past and to unstick the releases from linear time.
It's just a minor addition to allow for a new dimension of gameplay.

No.

Then you've have a motivation to go back to the "bad old days" of the wired Matrix ... where teh Hacker stayed home, and the entirety of the Matrix was a separate campaign run in parallel.

No. Thank. You.

Well, the whole point of global computer network is to access things from afar. The actual difference is that on 1st and 2nd edition, the decker was doing it from home, while in 4th edition, the hacker doesn't even have to leave the bar where the team met the Johnson.

Or we could make everything wireless, and the hacker can stay home and hack anything from anywhere and the entirety of the Matrix is a separate campaign run in parallel.

(Hint: Wi-fi inhibiting paint stops a hacker in 4 less than an isolated network in 3)

I always go under the assumption that secure systems are wi-fi disabled, thus you must be physically present to access the network.

Indeed... This is the easiest explanation. Just because the majority of the world's Mundane communications is easily accessible, it does not mean that secured systems are just as easily accesible. *shrug*

The problem with both editions is that the issues are both easily bypassed so that a Hacker can stay at home while the rest of the team runs on the locatuon and sets up a remote accessible tap. In 4th, I have never had the inclination to do so; however in 2nd/3rd, it was very, very, common practice.

I don't know, it makes me think of Ghost in the Shell. The hacker can stay home if they really want to and have the resources - if the hacker wants to be useful in the field (rather than someone every has to protect), they'll want to have skills other than hacking. I don't mind this - then again, I know how to work with characters who are split up, so it doesn't bother me so much.

Well hacker that stays at home run the risk* of having his signal traced back there and have the door kicked in.

* Yes true mirrorshade runners will take counter measures against it, but sometimes even they should be in so far over their heads that it might happen.

Easiest countermeasure to that was always to go to a cheap-ass coffin motel as "John Smith" or whatever, and hack from there.

Hmm. Actually, one thing I'm considering is the use of microdrones (like in Unwired). Send in a bunch of microdrones, have one connect to a specific line and broadcast, and let the other ones help to create a line out of a 'protected' zone, so the hacker can do work from the vehicle / home / safe house.

Though the thing is, in 207X, how often would a system be completely isolated? A completely isolated system would have to be one where even workers inside the corporation (including managers and such) have to physically walk into the area to log in and access it. It is not available to most people, and if someone is in another location, they can't access it at all. "I'm sorry, Mister Lofwyr, it's in a sealed location. I can't send you a copy of the data. I'll need to copy it, then send you the copy later." I can see a partially sealed system however - one where you need to access specific computers, and from these, log in to get access to the system. But this means the hacker just needs to find that computer through the Matrix, log into it remotely, and then from there access the system. A bit troublesome, but viable.

And the thing is, even with 'wireless', that only goes so far. The hacker just needs to tap the matrix from someplace local to them - once they've done that, they can use the full matrix, wireless or not. I doubt every single part of the matrix is wireless, but a combination of wired and unwired - and as long as the hacker has some way to get online, they're golden. For example - I have a wireless network here at home. But I've got two computers that are physically connected to the network since they don't have wireless themselves. My wireless laptop is able to contact the router, to either talk to the internet (wired) or to my other computer (wired). I'm pretty certain the matrix of Shadowrun works the same way. So, even if a location is 'wireless', it probably still has a matrix connection (since the people inside need to communicate with the outside world somehow), just that the connection is wired. That shouldn't slow a hacker down that much, really.

Again, I'm thinking GitS.
Mostly, I just follow the rule of 'is it realistic?' -- how much benefit would a corporation have of keeping a place completely blocked off from the matrix, versus being able to have superiors able to access the information there remotely, or to have specific high-level workers (managers, scientists, etc) from being able to access the information from other locations so they can continue to work, trade information, what-have-you remotely? Considering some of the hacks done now, I'm figuring human nature isn't going to change that much, and most places will still be accessible via matrix - though you may have specific times they're shut off (such as 'work's done, turn off all the computers'). In such a case, you need to hack when the place is open and on, or you need to send someone in to turn the computers on for you.

Well, if you only allowed for remote access to devices within the network running on separate channels IE: the devices only communicate with eachother and not with the matrix as a whole. Surely that will be possible if you got a private satellite network in place?
That way the prospective hacker couldn't access the device directly over the matrix but would rather need to either aquire a device linked to the network or try and tap into the network itself.

And what exactly is stopping a hacker from using that frequency from the comfort of his home? Authentication measures? Those are all but non-existent in SR.

He have to find the frequency first?

You say that as if it presents any kind of a problem.
Even modern systems use complex patterns of channel-hopping, and those are still not safe.

Well how would he interface with it?
The commlink connects to the matrix, this system runs separate from the matrix, thus it's not able to be located on the matrix.
He would need to find another way to interface and locate the network, then he would still have to jump through hoops battling IC/Spiders.
I don't know how these things work, but it makes sense to me.

Same way he does with the rest of the electronics.
You see, the radioelectronic spectrum (that is, the frequency range we can use) is rather limited. The limits are not technological, but rather physical - simply there because of the laws of nature. So scanning the entirety of the spectrum available is not really all that difficult. Actually, there's even a radio frequency scanner available in Core, and using unusual frequencies is an upgrade for commlinks in Unwired which makes them a tiny bit harder to find (which allows us to presume that the scanner really scans even through the frequencies not normally used for Matrix communication).
A system built on hopping between unusual frequencies could be viable for a while, until the intruders learned the algorithms used to choose the channels to hop to, but with Shadowrun intrusion methods development level that wouldn't keep it safe for long. The only exception could be some super-secret systems used for maybe seconds in a year, like nuclear launch command transmission systems - those would be hard to pinpoint because there'd usually be no signal to find.

I don't realistically think many things are going to be separate from the matrix. Any project is going to have some matrix presence, even if it is a single hardwire, simply because people outside the building who have a vested interest in it will want to remain informed. Now, inside the building, there's probably a matrix hub, providing wireless for the people inside. The hardwire would provide information to the hub, program updates, and allow those outside to be able to communicate to those inside - who would have a very 'sterile' matrix to work from otherwise (limited programs, a lot of IC, etc). I'd bet that hardwire would be crawling with IC, too -- a hacker would have to go through that point to get in, and then have to work inside the matrix inside the building to get to where he wants to go.

But, let's say that there's no hardwire - and that the hub inside the building is isolated. The best bet, then, would be to have a running team hook up a drone someplace where it could access the information inside, then transmit it outside. Basically, get a drone to connect with the group inside, turn the drone on, run a wire out someplace where the hacker gets the signal, and you're good to go. It's a lot safer than having a squishy hacker going in with you.

Having worked in the defense industry, I can tell you that nowadays, it is quite common to have wireless communication strictly banned and sensitive work done on a separate network with no physical connection to the Internet.

In turn, there are now Trojan Horses who wait for any USB storage device to be connected to propagate and send data back home once they find something matching their search keywords. But it still would preclude real-time hacking.

Thanks for the explanation Fatum, I don't know nearly enough about communication technology to think of appropriate technobabble to circumvent that... First thing that springs to mind is if you were to expand the spectrum outside of radiowaves, kind of like wireless fiberoptics. Not sure if that's even possible. The last time I read about wireless electricity was when reading about Tesla's last project, that had some really heavy technical stuff but I think the consensus was that ionising the atmosphere is a bad idea.

It's the only thing that makes logical sense. I mean, even if you figure that between SR3 and SR4 they figured out some awesome data compression algorithm to make transmitting megapulses of data wirelessly efficient enough to be worthwhile, that same technology is still going to be exponentially faster over wires because of the basic laws of physics.

To assume a megacorp wouldn't brutally and mercilessly use that advantage to give their network security the edge is basically the system giving hackers a gimmie to make them viable.



In short, it isn't. Fiberoptics are light down a glass thread, the only way to duplicate that 'wirelessly' would be point-to-point lasers, which only work line of sight over short distances (without being powerful enough to essentially be a cutting torch) and are subject to atmospheric conditions. Considering the amount of rain, fog, and straight-up smog in 2070's Seattle, that's pretty much guaranteed lag.

I don't know. We're constantly firing lasers at the moon and taking readings, even with atmosphere in the way. That's happening now. And now we're discussing sending information between two points without having it pass through the space in between. I don't think we're really going to need to worry about 'lag' too much by 2070.

"Taking readings" is different from "downloading a high-resolution movie". Most of the signal is lost on the way to the Moon and back, severely limiting the rate at which you receive information.

As soon as such technology would be made available, the entire point of connecting to a global meshed network would disappear. Each corporations would have devices directly connecting eah of their facilities, and no reason to accept any connection from outside.

Yep. The greater 'public' Matrix being essentially relegated to cat pictures and simsense porn, while the corporate systems go to fully closed networks with single points of connection for the entire corp intranet to the Matrix that are so heavily defended that even a rogue AI is going to have trouble breaking all that ice.

You and a few--very vocal--others may not like the source book, but stop using hyperbole to try and force others into your line of thought for the book.

So, you'd say that grenade bags with a higher damage code than tacnukes are 'good rules'?
This is not even hyperbole, though I fail to see how hyperbole can force anyone to do anything.

Absolutely. Plus the machinery we use to scan the Moon is not exactly pocket-portable.

There are laser beam communicators in SR; and narrow-burst radio transmission is available in RL even now. The thing is building your own global network instead of using the one the whole of humanity shares tends to be a hit on your bottom line much more than a hack here or there.


I have a better idea: stop ordering people around. We've been over it already.
Btw, facts do not change just because you don't like them. And a good half of stuff in War! being unusable is a fact.

I said try, and every time someone brings up using anything from that source book, someone who doesn't like it swoops in and starts talking trash and exaggerating to get the person to not use it. Fine, you don't like it. Shut up about it and let other people who either do like it or are neutral to it--I'm actually in the second part of those--in peace.

It's not so much hyperbole but rather consumer awareness. The evaluation of a product, whether good or bad helps the consumer to do an informed purchase decision. You shouldn't make a decision based on a single source as there is bound to be bias, but a general negative attitude towards a product can be indicative of the overall quality of the product. This being the internet you should take every opinion on anything with a truck worth of salt.

Nobody told you not to use the books you like. It's just that the statements you're making, like
are simply false. You don't want people arguing that War! was terrible - you don't try to glorify it in an unrelated thread.

Doesn't it feel a bit embarassing to play the fanboi for something when even the makers agreed it needed fixing? I mean you obviously believe that everything CGL does is a work of great wisdom, yet you also imply their go-ahead for Pegasus' errata was unnecessary -- in fact, you claim that any errata is useless. Something does not add up in your logic...

Somebody has to try to undo the damage the haters are doing to try to at least get things back to neutral.

A bad book does not deserve neutral reviews. Neither are you helping bringing it up without any arguments in its favour.

I don't know what AE is, but I understand your point. Still, full-page B&W art is still pricey. I'd be happy with art and fluff like we saw in the Street Samurai Catalog, but I understand that price continues to be a factor, even with that.



I really don't have time to argue with people who don't bother justifying their own points, and I'm not sure that it's relevant to the thread, so I'm happy to just leave this.

Anniversary Edition. And while bw art can be pricey, color art is more expensive still. The difference in price can be significant enough, especially if we're counting the dimes that we're paying to the rules authors.

"It's too expensive to sell well so the price will increase" is a line of reasoning too obviously contradicting the ideas of market self-regulation for the counter-argument referring to that idea to need further justification. But you're right, it's hardly related to the thread's topic. Let's drop it.

I assume it's because the Crash allowed them to make a clean break with existing technology, which means that they didn't have to worry much about backwards compatibility, which is an issue in computing right now. For example, the size of the packets we send and receive is dictated by decades old network speeds, and because each new level of technology had to be backwards compatible, we're stuck with upgrading the underlying tech at a glacial pace.

An actual wish:
I hope there will be no quasi-apocalyptic break event this time

Was there such things in 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd?

With horrors out of the question I'd imagine it be pretty calm this time around... Well barring any escalating global conflict or deus ex machina.

No, but there was one from 3rd to 4th. It was okay once, but it gets overdone quickly.

The problem is the underlying physics, not compatibility. Wireless transmission is never going to be faster than a fiber-optic cable, simply because the speed of radio waves is never going to be a fraction of that of light.

Beyond that, the reason we don't upgrade the underlying tech is because it is absurdly expensive to do so. With modern materials, it costs roughly $50k per linear mile to run fiber alone, and last-mile fiber connections are the major limiting factor in getting exponential increases in consumer speeds. Offering that last-mile service needs to be incredibly lucrative in order for ISPs to lay out the investment in that cabling, plus all the infrastructure to actually route for it.

Expand that out to replacing the entire grid at once, and you soon start to realize that even bigger-than-governments Megacorps wouldn't start over from scratch. They couldn't afford to, with the kind of loss of profit they'd take by not having a working Matrix in the meantime.

Err, no. Radio waves and lights both are electromagnetic radiations that travel at the same speed.

Actually, wireless transmission will always be slower than wired because of inherently higher levels of background noise. And signal interference. And radiowave properties like self-interference or atmospheric reflection or you get the idea.

In a vacuum.

If anything, they travel slower in wires. It's still negligible compared to other considerations.

I feel the need to address a post by Bull from earlier.



Bull, (and generally speaking, CGL, then,) have you ever heard of a game called the Iron Kingdoms RPG? I could understand if you haven't, it's fairly obscure, if very awesome.

Here is the cover of the first version of it, from way back in 2004. Evidently they have a new version, here is the cover of that, too.

Now, you may, from the cover, rightly infer that the Iron Kingdoms are a fantasy setting with steampunk elements. You may also notice the gigantic mechanical thing following those two prominent characters around.

It's called a Steamjack - well, that one is properly referred to as a Warjack, which is a Steamjack that is armed and intended for use in combat. Point is, it's a big steam-powered fantasy robot that runs on steam and is controlled by magic. They're quite expensive, unless you're putting yours together from a cheaper industrial Laborjack that you're slowly upgrading over time, and they are very, very awesome.

Indeed, it's Steamjacks that put the Metal in "Full Metal Fantasy."

A long time ago, on the Privateer Press forums, in the RPG section, there was considerable debate about things like Steamjacks; after all, they're expensive, things of an industrial revolution, not really in the wealth-by-level range of any adventurer who would find one meaningfully useful to have and field, as the Iron Kingdoms RPG was based on OGL. There was one poster, a game-master, who was absolutely adamant that players should never, ever, get their hands on a proper Warjack, because it was, you know, military equipment, and that they should be slapped down immediately should they attempt to turn a laborjack into a Warjack.

Then I felt the need to point out that the name of the game was "Full Metal Fantasy." Take away the Warjacks, and the Iron Kingdoms are just a d20-based industrial-revolution-meets-greenskinned-characters setting, and not even a good one at that. Steamjacks, moreso than any other gadgets in the setting, are what make it Full Metal Fantasy. Telling players they live in the same world as those things, but they're never, ever, going to get to use them for themselves, is not only cruel: it defeats the purpose of playing the game. In the hands of NPCs only, Steamjacks might as well be an iron golem, a fancy pile of stats for the players to crush or run away from. Dress it up as a Steamjack, dress it up as a Warforged, dress it up as a battle Droid, it doesn't matter. It's just there to be killed and looted.

It's only when the players get to play with the big toys that they get to be fun. That is how players realize "Hey, we're big time now, we've hit the big leagues, we're big shots." In D&D, this means you're gearing up to stop a massive Evil plot to destroy and/or take over the world; in the Iron Kingdoms, it means you're either a commissioned officer in an army or you're running a successful mercenary company whose contract is greatly desired by all the nations, and in Shadowrun it means you have a Jackpoint login and MCT has several violated, gaping Zero Zones that they don't know your name is on.

It also means that you should have the good toys to play with. They shouldn't exist just so the GM can masturbate them onto special named NPCs, players should have a chance for them. Deltaware Wired Reflexes or Deltaware Move-by-Wire shouldn't exist if the players can't get ahold of them.


Especially since a magician, or an adept, (or a Technomancer,) can just Initiate (or Submerge) to their heart's content; this creates a massive power disparity, with the players who choose to play Awakened characters advancing dramatically, and the players who didn't being stuck in a rut.



Don't gimp the Augmented character any more than they already are. Make all the cyber affordable for them. They need it, they're half the setting, they shouldn't be ignored like that, taunted and teased with goodies they'll never get to play with.

Always felt that deltaware is a bit lackluster personally, sure it's nicer on the soul or whatever... But it's not so much a power gain as it is a power spread.
Sure you can chip up that R3 Wired reflex and a bunch of other stuff, but you'd still be just as fast as the chum' with only the wires.
Where's the R7 Wires that would outright kill you unless they were made Delta?
Yes, I realise the augmented maximum would make those completely worthless, maybe the caps need to lessen a bit...

or How about really exotic pieces of ware that is so complex that they can only be made as delta? Like maybe a brain partition augment that let's you put complete focus on several things at once? (extra actions in an IP)
or an advanced nanite cluster that gives you regeneration powerful enough to regrow an arm?

As is, only being nicer on the essence cost, while it allows for more variety... Feels a bit bland.

Awesome write up shadowdragon.

Lionhearted: I agree, but power spread is still better than neither. If you think about it, it can make the Augmented character into the Jack of All Trades; they're so augmented and they've had so much Karma they didn't spend on all those Initiations and spells that they're at or near the augmented max for most of their stats, they have most skill groups at 4 and their favorites at 6 or even 7...


I mean, I'd prefer some super-high-end augmentations that let mundanes keep up with the wizzers when it comes to doling out the excellence in their field of specialization, but I'll take what I can get.

Well there's something to add to the wishlist, interesting beta/delta ware
Also... Why is there no Gamma ware?

Because the game designers don't know the Greek alphabet and assumed it advances like the Latin one with G coming after D? It confused me for a while until I worked out the likely explanation.

I definitely like the idea of specialized wares that are ONLY available as Beta or Delta. Things that are the cutting edge, that take things up a new level of power, but that have to be specially built into the person using them, at great cost and difficulty.

~Umi