HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oh, that's a good one, Fatum!!

Yep, it's a huge task and nothing that will add much value to the game. Apart from a few voices here I've never heard the suggestion or wish that an exact release date of every weapon is provided. And I mean, what's the benefit of it? Does it add much to the game if we know that the Ares Predator 3 has been released on "March 1st, 2066" instead of "2066" or "in the Mid-2060s"?



Watch your tone, ok? Why should he do it for free? Even easy freelance jobs should be paid

You see, the purpose of this is being able to set the game in any year you want. So of course we don't need the data as precise as "the first commercially available Ares Alpha was sold at 14:52:18 on May the 5th, 2056". Just a year it entered production works. And determining that is as simple as taking the equipment books, noting where each peace of equipment is first noticed, and then overlaying the date from the table specifying which book represents which IC time (which already exists). It's literally, as I said, flipping through a dozen books.

I counted as much as 37 books to check for gear throughout the four editions (not counting Metamagic techniques, which would add 4 on top of that).

Establishing that list should have already have netted me 1$, based on Federal Minimum Wage Law.

Honestly, that one was out of irritation from people who call any product that isn't absolutely 100% everything they would ever want from any book ever "bad product". To be perfectly honest, the gamer community is getting unbelievably spoiled.

You don't seem to understand capitalism, BigGuns.

See, the customers create the demand for this type of product. If the game system doesn't appeal to them, they won't buy it. A better product will make more money, while a crappier product will make less. Yes, there may always be some diehard fans who stick with the system, or who are more willing to overlook poorer quality, or who are less concerned with needing higher quality books. But ultimately a crappy product is going to fail in lieu of a better one.

The customers are not the ones responsible if that happens. If Shadowrun goes the way of Earthdawn, it'll definitely be a loss for the gaming community that no one will be putting out new material and that people will slowly stop playing the system. But it'll only happen because the makers of the SR books and materials failed to adequately profit from the demands of the market.

Now, is a single feature going to make or break a game? No, probably not. But at the same time, the playerbase has every right to want features which will make their gaming experience more enjoyable. Calling them spoiled for wanting more features is absurd, even if adding specific features isn't feasible for some reason.

You've gone on and on about how the poor writers are underpaid and overworked and that these requests are unreasonable. Well tough luck! If they don't want to do the job, no one is forcing them! They can go get another job! If the writers don't want to write up the features the players want, fine! Someone else will, or no one else will! Maybe a different game system with different writers will add a similar feature of their own, drawing customers away. Maybe not! Who knows! Capitalism is weird!

You're just playing the White Knight for some reason, arguing against the "unreasonable demands" that the playerbase is placing on the poor, poor writers whom you must protect from the wicked, spoiled, selfish player community. I have no idea why you're doing so, but there you have it.

~Umi

That's not necessarily true Umi, increased quality is not always a surefire way to success. Money is always a factor, and if you pump resources into one aspect you inadvertently have to sacrifice another aspect. It's not how much you want a feature but rather how much would you rather have that feature over another one.
Companies must be able to expect a return on their investment and the higher the initial cost the higher the sales must be to break even. A poignant example for this would be Kingdoms of Amalur, it did by no means badly. But it didn't break even because of the astronomical production cost.
Your argument of competition breeds excellency still have some impact. But I have to ask, what is Shadowrun competing with that would draw their audience away? Well except it's own older editions.
SR have an unique niche and as such it will attract a niche audience.
While the quality of the product may be important for the general well-being of the franchise, it's also constrained in it's budget because of it's niche place in the overall market.

I totally don't know the first thing about economics

You forgot one point, it's an unreasonable demand from a minority of the player base. Most people could fragging care less about seeing a "date produced" on the gear. Sure it might be nice, but it is an overwhelming minority that's demanding it. Quite frankly it isn't worth the extra crap that someone would have to go through to mess with it.

All4, you have no way to know what "most people" do or do not want. Not unless you can prove that you have polled a statistically-significant portion of the SR playerbase not just those of us who frequent the Dumpshock forums. So please don't talk like you do know such things.

Then how about getting on them for acting like most do want those things?

I haven't noticed anyone say the words "most people want", except you. I admit I haven't gone LOOKING for it either, so I might have missed it.

Instead, what I've seen is the folks in favor of it say many people would like it, but that's not at all the same thing.

And we both know that you're intelligent enough to know that already, All4.

Also there's the point that "Umi" was acting like not having a "production date" on every piece of gear automatically makes a product "crappy" (his word).

See, why does this bother you, specifically? No one's asking you to do any work.

You happen to feel that it's too much work for too little reward. But who the hell are you? If a portion of the playerbase, even a minority portion, asks for a specific feature they'd like to see, what business of it is yours how much or how little work it would be to implement and how much or how little payoff it would have? Leave that judgement to the writers, and to the people responsible for making the new edition of SR.

Why should you care what some portion of the playerbase, even a minority portion, asks for in the new edition? Why should you be so bothered by such requests, unreasonable or not? How does it affect you at all, when you're completely divorced from any of the decision making process or any of the writing going into the new edition? Why the righteous indignation over something you have no part in and no influence over?

You've said your piece, your opinion has been heard. Let's all move on now, and continue the thread as it was intended - discussing things we'd like to see in the new edition of Shadowrun. That includes me.

~Umi

He's entitled to that opinion. I don't happen to agree with it, but him having that opinion doesn't mean you get to break out the "most people" fallacy, without being called on it.

This thing is both brilliant and soul-wrenching, but you reminded me of it.

http://blakefallconroy.com/18.html

As an aside, note that writers are paid based on words-on-page. Research is unpaid labor. Combining the two, I believe that most of the freelancers fall shy of min. wage. It's a labor of love first, job second, and career for very, very few.

(Note: this isn't a shortfall of Catalyst, or even gaming! There's a report out there how there are about two hundred writers in the US who make a living at it; the rest have at least a part time, and usually full-time, job, and write on the side for a little extra money. I need to track that one down again. Hmm...

I'd like to note that apparently enough demand exists among the player base to warrant a whole book being published about playing in the 50ies. Which is immensely more work for quite a lot more people than just writing down production dates for gear.

All points regarding production dates for gear have been made. Move on.

I would like magic qualities not to count toward the starting qualities limit but to cost a lot more (or something like that).

Well then.

My hope for dragon romance novels is growing with each post...

This sounds intriguing
What I would also like is a necessity for mages to own a spell formula if they want to have the corresponding spell at character creation

I'd buy that.
<..<
(Actually, I have before).

Oooh...

Don't tempt me to write "Fifty Shades Of Gold and Bronze". (I don't know if I could get through that without laughing hysterically the whole way...)

Team up with Chrysalis. Ask him about his slash fic.
*Blatant carrot dangle*

I'm not sure if I should be excited or scared that there's more than one person who'd enjoy that

He says to someone who knows someone who writes porn stories on commission. $10.00 per 1000 words (or less*)

*Depends on volume and type (after 5000 words there's a discount, rough is cheaper than refined, etc).

...Dragon Slash fic? this is relevant to my interests. (Dunk/Lofwyr all the way here... )

Ehm, okay we were on 5th edition extras? Uhh...More Nightclubs!

Go ask Chrysalis about the one he already wrote. It's not Dunk/Lofwyr, but none the less enjoyable.

I'm not sure if I could write that... I giggled and snickered through the only sex scene I've had to write. (Catholic girl fail!)

But that's not a bad rate... Anyone at Catalyst listening? (Or willing to pay that )

I will admit to having written some porn myself (no, not linking it). I restrained from giggling though.



Really cheap, actually. Writing for a magazine pays more (on the order of 10x as much but they take pieces only 1/10th the length). It's meant to be affordable, on par with a full color digital artwork.

I work for $0.02 a word now, I wouldn't shun $10 per 1000 for something I'd enjoy writing.

It scares me that this probably in line with forum rules (though not in spirit) 50 shades of Glasgow isn't although.

Precisely. He/she* enjoys writing what they write, and has priced accordingly, as well as keeping in mind what the community they're offering their services to will pay.

*I actually don't know their biological or identity gender. They've mentioned RL gender issues, but I don't know which gender they are biologically or which one they identify with. My assumption is genetically male, but identifies as female. Another artist I know was subject to a botched circumcision and was raised female.

You would take half what you get paid now for something that you enjoy? Hmmmmm... I could see that I guess...

How many people write things they like for free? Maybe I'm enterprising because I'm self-employed but any job that pays more than minimum wage that you enjoy is what I'd consider a win-win.

No that works, I was just curious.
I was just shocked to see you take a paycut from that $0.02 a word is all.

Meh, it's all circumstantial not like anyone's banging on my door to actually pay me. It was more a, "Wow, if you're willing to pay me to write that up I might consider it."

Heh Got it. I can guarantee that no one knocks down my door for my fiction. *shrug*
Though I do have a friend or two for whom I proof their work and offer critique. Gratis, obviously, though I usually get a good read as well. *shrug*

Reminds me that my dad, a few months back, said to my mom, "I wonder how [old friend] is doing" and the next day, said old friend calls him up with "Hey, I've been writing this story, you want to give me some feedback?"

Mom didn't enjoy it much, and I didn't read it, so I can't say for sure if it was any good or not.

I have been fortunate so far; the stories have been mostly good, and one was even published afterwards.

That's good. Getting published once is the hard part.

Indeed... Apparently, he is working on a couple of various transcripts right now. They are not too bad, but they have been languishing for a bit as the author goes back to College.

$10 is 1,000 cents.

$10 for 1,000 words is $0.01 per word

You're ALREADY getting $20-per-1000.

Slogwork vs funwork.

$20 to write something you don't want to do (Like, say, a paper on Chester A. Arthur's economic intentions) vs $10 to write something that you'd enjoy (Grimmy the Grimoire reads DNA/DOA and gives helpful hints along the way!)

In short, you have to pay more for the dull stuff.

Heck, I probably dropped a hundred thousand words on a forum roleplay two years ago, and I didn't get a penny from that! (Heck, left work early a few times to make sure I didn't miss an online event, so I *lost* money writing!)

Yeah, I was about to say, I just *may* have already devoted a few hundred thousand words to some SR dragon fanfic >.> . Getting paid for something I like to write would be nice.

My own wishlist:

1- Not a refinement of rules, but a deeper modification in mechanics. IMO, a game should have 1 edition, 1 refinement edition, then something new (and better if possible). There was issues in 3rd like in 4th, find us something that would please everyone

2- A huge book in terms of pages including, rules, optional rules, a sight of the 6th world, a good sight of Seattle and a short introductive scenario.

3- A modular game: A simple, straightforward base system covering each aspect of the game, with some play-subtilities (like reserve or karma effects, whatsoever). A set of optional rulings, allowing the GM to make the game more complicated if he desires. Create a sheet of rule reference were the GM can check the rules he included in the game. Allow optional rules to make the game-style deadlier or more heroic.

4- Cover infiltration in the rulebook as a true part of it.

This is slightly off-topic, but I wish I could have the opportunity to review the 5th edition ruleset before it was released and give my feedback to the devs. I'm quite good at grasping game mechanics and spotting errors, inaccuracies and loopholes in the rules. There were quite a few in SR4, some of them have been corrected in errata, others not.
I'm not sure how to apply for reviewing or "beta-testing" the 5th edition, or if that's even possible. If someone has more information about that, I would be very interested.

Have your read the last twenty posts or so? You are totally on topic


I for one am very curious what they do with the Geneva plot... some parts of 'Clutch of Dragons' made me think Lofwyr will deal with his bro in the near future but I'd actually really enjoy to have the dragons-run-rampant city around a little longer. I think it would also manage to get more GMs stage runs in Europe as it would be quite a unique place where one can "deal with a dragon" in a more... direct and lethal way.

I don't believe this is true and will now refute it by posting novel points for your consideration.

The living world is one of the most attractive aspects of the Shadowrun franchise. It is a story which has evolved and it contains settings which exist only in a certain time and place. Novel settings in SR are not exactly popping up like daisies, and, in my experience, this leads active GMs to look to the past. Anything which makes that easier on GMs is good, and anything that maintains that consistent living world is good. Finally, anything that helps people play the game the way they want to play it is good. You like cyberdecks and hate TMs? Then play a pre-crash 2.0 setting. The rules are included!*

*Rules currently not included. Enjoy 2075 and the gradual slouch toward transhumanism. (Wait, were people complaining about this very issue earlier in the thread? And I'm proposing an alternative which allows both sides to be satisfied? What a waste of time. We should probably lock the thread or something.)

Besides, every player deserves to be able to play those iconic runs and experience the whole setting, otherwise it presents a barrier of entry for new players, like walking in halfway through a movie. And as a player, you can look at gear as something that evolves with you. It's that whole living world thing again. If an Ares Alpha is the greatest small arm that has or will ever be created, and you can pick one up on chargen, then it's boring. It's always boring to start at the top and try to stay there. But what if you're in a black site or zero zone and opfor drops a crazy new gun you've never seen before? Is that exciting? OH MY YES. It seems that by expending effort and taking risks, you have gained access to something novel and useful! This is an experience that a player could very easily have if they are denied access to weapons and gear created beyond a certain date when building their characters. It's also an excuse for other gear to exist when there is an obviously superior choice in the mix (see other folk complaining about this earlier in the thread.) [PROTIP for developers: make the latest gear better, statwise, valuewise or accessory-wise.]


I believe that creating the base SR5 books as a rock-solid rule set rather than a comprehensive world set makes sense as an evolution of the game. New players can still play food fight without reading the history of the Universal Brotherhood in Chapter 1 of the base book, so why you gotta ruin their surprise?

As a closing argument in favor of reintegrating the experiences of playing old books with new improved rule sets, look at SRR vs. SRO. Sure there's a lot of mitigating factors there, but nostalgia is a god damn goldmine and only a fool walks away from it. MILK IT.


Finally a rebuttal.
If it's too hard to look for when a piece of gear might have been introduced in book form, then make up a date. Just invent one. This is a game of make-believe. I don't care what it is, as long as it makes some sort of internal sense. (Well, the slivergun will never make internal sense...) In the end, if it's not perfect enough for the neckbeards, then they will happily, and loudly, correct you. At this point, they have done your research for you.

Which was the entire point (pointing out that there was a paycut involved) of Post 333.
And I understand the sentiment... Sometimes taking a paycut for things that you enjoy is okay.

Why do you think most of us write for Shadowrun, TJ? It's not the money, that's for sure (though that's nice). Don't get me wrong there, we like the money, but many of us make a lot more at our day jobs, and if we didn't love the game, the pay wouldn't be worth it.