Actually I was referring to the 'fallen from grace' bit that just about every posted concept (except possibly Axe, who is working the related theme of 'Grace, in hell' instead of having fallen...)
Full Version: Recruiting: Down in the Gutter - Second Phase
And Feeler, who's just a shell-shocked kid who likes fixing things. My first concept, Dante, wont work because monowhips are 12r and so is wired reflexes 2. I guess I could replace a monowhip with a regular weighted whip. Any thoughts? I wanted him to use two monowhips while on the back of a bike. Scary, but he had enough edge to pull it off.
I don't mean to be abrupt, but for these particular concepts there's no point in waxing poetic:
That guidance from Slipshade earlier would apply to Dante, Todd, and Doc, all of whom violate various Character Creation Guidelines.
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
QUOTE
Though if I hear one "I know this goes against the rules, but can I...." Or one "Can I just tweak...." or anything to that effect you can forget it.
That guidance from Slipshade earlier would apply to Dante, Todd, and Doc, all of whom violate various Character Creation Guidelines.
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
QUOTE (WinterRat1 @ Apr 2 2008, 11:21 AM) 
I don't mean to be abrupt, but for these particular concepts there's no point in waxing poetic:
That guidance from Slipshade earlier would apply to Dante, Todd, and Doc, all of whom violate various Character Creation Guidelines.
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
That guidance from Slipshade earlier would apply to Dante, Todd, and Doc, all of whom violate various Character Creation Guidelines.
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with duplicates. Though you missed one... Feeler can't have a shop. Chargen won't allow it.
And nobody, NOBODY, is Grack.
QUOTE (WinterRat1 @ Apr 2 2008, 09:21 AM)
I don't mean to be abrupt, but for these particular concepts there's no point in waxing poetic:
That guidance from Slipshade earlier would apply to Dante, Todd, and Doc, all of whom violate various Character Creation Guidelines.
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
That guidance from Slipshade earlier would apply to Dante, Todd, and Doc, all of whom violate various Character Creation Guidelines.
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
I hate to disagree but according to your posted house rules, the only character concept that violates your posted guidelines in any way is Doc, and that's with his high medicine specialization. Even then, it says in your character creation section, and I quote: "Specializations that raise skill dice above 4 (e.g. Blades 3 w/Specialization in Swords would effectively grant 5 skill dice to Sword related rolls) must be specifically explained." Everything I have worked up so far I've rigorously followed the rules posted on your site , and in the very start of the post I wrote that I wasn't married to any of the ideas. They were just quick, down and dirty rough drafts of character concepts for you guys to look at and see if any of them appealed to you. If you dont want more players, then just tell me and I'll stop posting, but unless you have specifics for me please don't just say I'm not following your rules, because I can only go off of what you've posted on your site.
--edit--
I realize that might have sounded bitchy, but I get really defensive when I've rigorously followed the letter of the law to the T and someone complains that I'm not following the rules. So my apologies but what I said still stands. How can a character concept be illegal?
QUOTE (WinterRat1 @ Apr 2 2008, 09:21 AM)
Axe is just Grack the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
Feeler is just Drip the Remix.
Again, I hate to argue, but Drip is specialized towards the electronic side of technology, where as Feeler would be much more into the physical side, taking things apart and putting them back together. Their skills would complement rather than compete. And in what way is a straight-up gang-warfare soldier in any way similar to a combat mage? As I said earlier, I was just throwing some ideas out there. If none of those ones are acceptable I can come up with some new ones if you'd like.
Now, I'm not a staff member, so please take my advice with a grain of salt.
Try not to take things so personally; I merely wanted to swap a few numbers from by the RAW Mentor Spirits around and was told that it would not be allowed, so please be aware that in no way is anyone singling you out. The simple fact of the matter is that there's a lot to keep track of with play by post games and that character concepts need to stay within the guidelines and pre-existing options when at all possible in order to cut down on confusion.
Nobody's accusing you of being outright abusive, we're just saying you're making things more complicated than they need to be. Think of it in terms of creating extra work and you'll start to understand why the staff has some misgivings. Dante has essentially a houseruled version of Wired 3, Todd has Hung Out To Dry (which no longer exists) and as has been pointed out Doc's too skilled for his own good. Moreover, you've put in a couple stipulations to keep track of such as "Any and all karma MUST go to..." and "Must spend two actions..." which likely isn't something the staff is terribly comfortable with since there's other ways to go about attaining similar character concepts without creating new undocumented qualities and drawbacks.
For example, Dante could have Wired 2 as his single high rating item (and only piece of 'ware, since you cannot dip below 3 essence) along with the High Maintenance Implant, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy or Buggy 'Ware flaws from Augmentation. Doc would be better off simply taking a skill rating a single point lower, OR by taking the Aptitude Quality in order to qualiy for having two skills at rating 4. And of course, there's always just the option of taking the skilll group at 3, since that is considered professional level, after all. With Todd it'd be a simple matter of acknowledging that Hung Out To Dry is no more and that connection ratings higher than 3 are a no go, which may very well exclude you from having the kind of contacts you desire. It's not so much that your concepts are bad so much as the fact that you need to keep your execution of those concepts within the letter of the RAW and the existing chargen rules.
Try not to take things so personally; I merely wanted to swap a few numbers from by the RAW Mentor Spirits around and was told that it would not be allowed, so please be aware that in no way is anyone singling you out. The simple fact of the matter is that there's a lot to keep track of with play by post games and that character concepts need to stay within the guidelines and pre-existing options when at all possible in order to cut down on confusion.
Nobody's accusing you of being outright abusive, we're just saying you're making things more complicated than they need to be. Think of it in terms of creating extra work and you'll start to understand why the staff has some misgivings. Dante has essentially a houseruled version of Wired 3, Todd has Hung Out To Dry (which no longer exists) and as has been pointed out Doc's too skilled for his own good. Moreover, you've put in a couple stipulations to keep track of such as "Any and all karma MUST go to..." and "Must spend two actions..." which likely isn't something the staff is terribly comfortable with since there's other ways to go about attaining similar character concepts without creating new undocumented qualities and drawbacks.
For example, Dante could have Wired 2 as his single high rating item (and only piece of 'ware, since you cannot dip below 3 essence) along with the High Maintenance Implant, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy or Buggy 'Ware flaws from Augmentation. Doc would be better off simply taking a skill rating a single point lower, OR by taking the Aptitude Quality in order to qualiy for having two skills at rating 4. And of course, there's always just the option of taking the skilll group at 3, since that is considered professional level, after all. With Todd it'd be a simple matter of acknowledging that Hung Out To Dry is no more and that connection ratings higher than 3 are a no go, which may very well exclude you from having the kind of contacts you desire. It's not so much that your concepts are bad so much as the fact that you need to keep your execution of those concepts within the letter of the RAW and the existing chargen rules.
Thank you for the input. I had intended Dante to have for all intents and purposes a working version of wired reflexes 2, maybe I didn't get that across in my post, although I posted earlier that he might not be able to be played as is unless Exotic Weapon: Whips applies to monowhips as well in which case he can live with just having normal whips at the moment.
As far as Hung out to Dry, I wasn't aware of it not existing anymore, I'm using DaeGenn which is obviously outdated, sorry about that. As far as I'm concerned, he simply doesn't have those contacts anymore and they're just flavor text for his past and now he has all new contacts that are street contacts.
Now in Doc's case, I dont see any stipulation about taking Aptitude twice on the site? Thus raising medicine to 5 and first aid to 4 for Doc, which solves that problem right there. (Also, I somehow skipped over the part about Doc not being able to have burnout addictions. I can't think of any other way to explain his rejection from the medical community though.)
And I wasn't asking for any rules to be bent really, I was imposing my own personal restrictions on the characters because I thought it would give them some good roleplaying quirks, not in an attempt to create more havoc for the DMs. As a DM myself I can understand the concern lol. I've been playing shadowrun for over 5 years now and I've had my fill of uber-skilled, well adjusted characters lol. Psychoses are a normal thing and certain things make sense. Like, if a techwizzie is going to be in a gang it makes sense that his idols are his fellow gang members, if a doctor has a problem with alcohol, it makes sense he can't learn anything more until he conquers that problem. Hopefully that clarified some of the issues?
And another question: as far as Feeler goes, wouldn't it be acceptable for him to have a shop as his single high-rating item? Its only rating 8, its only 5000 nuyen, and it fits in the back of a van. And could he then have two rating 8 items instead of a rating 12? And can you have one item at a rating six and one at availability 12 or do they have to be the same item? Sorry about the barrage of questions! One more, and thats the last one promise! If my archetypes aren't what you're looking for, is there anything you are looking for in particular?
As far as Hung out to Dry, I wasn't aware of it not existing anymore, I'm using DaeGenn which is obviously outdated, sorry about that. As far as I'm concerned, he simply doesn't have those contacts anymore and they're just flavor text for his past and now he has all new contacts that are street contacts.
Now in Doc's case, I dont see any stipulation about taking Aptitude twice on the site? Thus raising medicine to 5 and first aid to 4 for Doc, which solves that problem right there. (Also, I somehow skipped over the part about Doc not being able to have burnout addictions. I can't think of any other way to explain his rejection from the medical community though.)
And I wasn't asking for any rules to be bent really, I was imposing my own personal restrictions on the characters because I thought it would give them some good roleplaying quirks, not in an attempt to create more havoc for the DMs. As a DM myself I can understand the concern lol. I've been playing shadowrun for over 5 years now and I've had my fill of uber-skilled, well adjusted characters lol. Psychoses are a normal thing and certain things make sense. Like, if a techwizzie is going to be in a gang it makes sense that his idols are his fellow gang members, if a doctor has a problem with alcohol, it makes sense he can't learn anything more until he conquers that problem. Hopefully that clarified some of the issues?
And another question: as far as Feeler goes, wouldn't it be acceptable for him to have a shop as his single high-rating item? Its only rating 8, its only 5000 nuyen, and it fits in the back of a van. And could he then have two rating 8 items instead of a rating 12? And can you have one item at a rating six and one at availability 12 or do they have to be the same item? Sorry about the barrage of questions! One more, and thats the last one promise! If my archetypes aren't what you're looking for, is there anything you are looking for in particular?
Oh, I understood that it was intended as Wired 2, but I just really wanted to point out that such a thing is the kind of complication the staff likely wants to avoid. It's a lot easier for everyone to remember what the rules are for a situation if your PC has Wired 2 along with a couple of by-the-book negative qualities rather than a set of Wired 3 that is for all intents and purposes Wired 2 paired with penalties that aren't in the books. It also helps avoid niggling questions like what would the appropriate essence cost be and all that other nasty stuff.
Dante: won't work, because characters with Essence < 3 won't work. You could pull it off with Wired 2, and no other 'ware, or maybe some Biocompatability edge, but you still run into the notoriety issue.
That's the biggest problem with many of these builds: most of them are either local heroes/villains, or even famous with the major tier 1 gangs (Yakuza, Triads, Ancients, etc) or the general public, as in this case. This is a third tier gang we're running here, the bottom of the bottom. Our biggest fears are going to be along the lines of having food to eat tomorrow, or getting half our team eaten by a random ghoul that a normal runner would take out with a well-thrown knife at 100 paces. None of our characters have any business even knowing people in the Yaks or Tiads, let alone being (in)famous in those lofty echelons of the underworld. We don't get to deal with Yaks, or Tiads. We don't even have the resources to hold our heads up against any of the other third tiers in the area; we don't have a single vehicle amongst all of us that would be worthy of inclusion on the Asphalt King's Motor Pool list, for instance.
Then there's the fact that each of these characters are highlighted by crippling mental and/or social flaws. In a game like this one, where the vast majority of time will be spent interacting with other players and the game world in general, these are going to be very problematic flaws, not just for you, but for the rest of the group who will have to interact with you. This isn't a shadowrunning team; this is a gang. The other players, not the teeming masses of NPCs, will make up the vast majority of your social interactions. For your Flaws to mean anything, they will have to hinder your interactions with those other players, which in turn hinders their characters. In other words, your mental/social flaws aren't just going to affect you; they're going to affect everyone around you.
This is in fact the reason I've decided to get rid of the Delusions flaw, and go with a mental flaw that only affects my character, and in a discrete mechanical way (a Phobia; I'm waiting to make a few more changes before ). It makes things easier for everyone who will have to interact with my character, doesn't interfere as much with the group dynamic, and will in general make things more fun for everyone.
I mean, this is all said now knowing anything about how you play. Maybe you're another adamu, capable of bringing to life a character who, by all conventions and common sense to the contrary, ought to be an impossible concept for a forum game. But, and I say this meaning no disrespect, you're probably not. I'm not, and most of the people here are not. But even if you are, keep in mind that such a character will cause a lot of grief for your fellow players, and unless it's really worth it there will be a major disincentive to include your character, and thus you, in anything.
That's the biggest problem with many of these builds: most of them are either local heroes/villains, or even famous with the major tier 1 gangs (Yakuza, Triads, Ancients, etc) or the general public, as in this case. This is a third tier gang we're running here, the bottom of the bottom. Our biggest fears are going to be along the lines of having food to eat tomorrow, or getting half our team eaten by a random ghoul that a normal runner would take out with a well-thrown knife at 100 paces. None of our characters have any business even knowing people in the Yaks or Tiads, let alone being (in)famous in those lofty echelons of the underworld. We don't get to deal with Yaks, or Tiads. We don't even have the resources to hold our heads up against any of the other third tiers in the area; we don't have a single vehicle amongst all of us that would be worthy of inclusion on the Asphalt King's Motor Pool list, for instance.
Then there's the fact that each of these characters are highlighted by crippling mental and/or social flaws. In a game like this one, where the vast majority of time will be spent interacting with other players and the game world in general, these are going to be very problematic flaws, not just for you, but for the rest of the group who will have to interact with you. This isn't a shadowrunning team; this is a gang. The other players, not the teeming masses of NPCs, will make up the vast majority of your social interactions. For your Flaws to mean anything, they will have to hinder your interactions with those other players, which in turn hinders their characters. In other words, your mental/social flaws aren't just going to affect you; they're going to affect everyone around you.
This is in fact the reason I've decided to get rid of the Delusions flaw, and go with a mental flaw that only affects my character, and in a discrete mechanical way (a Phobia; I'm waiting to make a few more changes before ). It makes things easier for everyone who will have to interact with my character, doesn't interfere as much with the group dynamic, and will in general make things more fun for everyone.
I mean, this is all said now knowing anything about how you play. Maybe you're another adamu, capable of bringing to life a character who, by all conventions and common sense to the contrary, ought to be an impossible concept for a forum game. But, and I say this meaning no disrespect, you're probably not. I'm not, and most of the people here are not. But even if you are, keep in mind that such a character will cause a lot of grief for your fellow players, and unless it's really worth it there will be a major disincentive to include your character, and thus you, in anything.
Oh, and it's definitely no on the two rating 8 items instead of a rating 12; otherwise Drip would have a Control Rig. 
Havok
Skills of 5 will not be permitted no matter what you use to get around that rule. You can only have one skill at 4 and none at five period. This includes specialization and other work arounds.
We (the GM and helpers) are tired of tracking the multiple ways that people have tried to get more points through work arounds that don't make you (IE everyone) technically have a skill over 3, but in reality you are rolling more dice.
I know that in shadowrun everyone tries to squeeze as much out of BP's that they can, but anything that gets you more total dice in a skill than is specified in the DiTG rules for character gen will be disallowed period.
Please don't take this as an attack. We all have had to readjust our thinking when it comes to this game and Character Gen.
One other thing. The comments on having character's similar to each other isn't just about stats it is about concept and character.
Everyone
Thank you for stepping in with input, but I think the comments of character concept viablitity should be left to WR1, Vegas and a lesser extent myself.
Pointing out rules violations are fine, but I don't want to discourage potential players because someone not involved in the recruitment process downplays the potential players concepts.
Skills of 5 will not be permitted no matter what you use to get around that rule. You can only have one skill at 4 and none at five period. This includes specialization and other work arounds.
We (the GM and helpers) are tired of tracking the multiple ways that people have tried to get more points through work arounds that don't make you (IE everyone) technically have a skill over 3, but in reality you are rolling more dice.
I know that in shadowrun everyone tries to squeeze as much out of BP's that they can, but anything that gets you more total dice in a skill than is specified in the DiTG rules for character gen will be disallowed period.
Please don't take this as an attack. We all have had to readjust our thinking when it comes to this game and Character Gen.
One other thing. The comments on having character's similar to each other isn't just about stats it is about concept and character.
Everyone
Thank you for stepping in with input, but I think the comments of character concept viablitity should be left to WR1, Vegas and a lesser extent myself.
Pointing out rules violations are fine, but I don't want to discourage potential players because someone not involved in the recruitment process downplays the potential players concepts.
QUOTE (Spike @ Apr 2 2008, 10:44 AM)
Actually I was referring to the 'fallen from grace' bit that just about every posted concept (except possibly Axe, who is working the related theme of 'Grace, in hell' instead of having fallen...)
I noticed that as well. Smacks of re-tooled 400 bp concepts. Which is fine.
----
Havok - the sort of defensive contentiousness that you're displaying is the kind of stuff the GMs don't have time for. The rest of us will try to guide you and tell you useful things. Don't get defensive - we're here to help. We've been through the mill already.
Feeler can have a Shop as his single above-6 availability item. He cannot have it in a vehicle - as that makes two above-6 items (the workshop vehicle mod). I interpreted instances in the concept of 'the shop' as a facility. Which is clearly out of bounds.
EDIT: The GMs will be helpful and tell you useful things too.
But they're dealing with a game with about 2 dozen players in various states of activity - getting approved, answering chargen questions, oh and that little thing - making IC posts.
Again, thanks for the input. I'm still pretty new at this whole gang concept, and I've only had a couple of days to read up on things, so sorry for any inconsistencies as far as concepts go. Like I said before, I'm not married to any of the concepts . I guess what I was trying to convey in my characters mostly was the capacity for something more than just struggling on the streets for the rest of their lives, a (however distant) attainable goal other than just survival. Most of the base archetypes have already been covered on the site, I guess the problem with trying to make characters that stand out is they're the first to get squashed hehe. So in light of recent developments, I've decided to rework a couple of my previous concepts and add some new ones.
. I guess what I was trying to convey in my characters mostly was the capacity for something more than just struggling on the streets for the rest of their lives, a (however distant) attainable goal other than just survival. Most of the base archetypes have already been covered on the site, I guess the problem with trying to make characters that stand out is they're the first to get squashed hehe. So in light of recent developments, I've decided to rework a couple of my previous concepts and add some new ones.
QUOTE (Slipshade @ Apr 2 2008, 10:55 AM)
Havok
Skills of 5 will not be permitted no matter what you use to get around that rule. You can only have one skill at 4 and none at five period. This includes specialization and other work arounds.
Skills of 5 will not be permitted no matter what you use to get around that rule. You can only have one skill at 4 and none at five period. This includes specialization and other work arounds.
Again, I apologize for my earlier post, I was mostly just irritated at the shoot-down without any explanation. My question about Doc still stands about the Aptitude quality. Heres a quote from the site:
QUOTE
Aptitude: This quality works as per normal and also raises the character generation cap on the skill by one. The cost to raise a skill from 4 to 5 is 8 bp. After character generation, the cost reverts to normal. This quality could also be used to gain two skills at 4 (the cost to go from 3 to 4 is not raised).
That's perfectly alright if Aptitude is no longer available, but like I said earlier without knowing, I can only go off of what's on the website. I'm making some major changes to a lot of the concepts, will post revised concepts shortly. Sorry if I p/oed anyone, especially wr-1 :'(
Oh, I wasn't meaning to criticize, merely comment....
.... though it does create in me the near irrational desire to make an 'ordinary guy' concept with nothing exciting at all about him.
.... though it does create in me the near irrational desire to make an 'ordinary guy' concept with nothing exciting at all about him.
How can a character concept be illegal? Simple, when the concept violates the preexisting guidelines laid down for what characters will and will not be allowed, and with one exception (Axe), four of your five concepts did exactly that.
Dante – Wired Reflexes 3 exceeds both the availability and essence limitation. Monowhip exceeds the availability limitation.
Todd – Contacts exceeded both the maximum Connection Level and types of contacts allowed (high level and well-placed/connected) and the Hung Out to Dry flaw does not exist.
Doc – Specializations pushing skills to a total dice pool higher than 4 are not accepted, which your cybertechnology (bodyware) 3 (+2) would do.
I even missed Feeler having a Shop, which Sparky caught.
You still want to stand by this statement?
While I’m here, you also had at least some variant of a house rule tacked on to 3 of the 5 characters (Dante, Todd, Doc) which we (Slipshade, Vegas, and myself) have repeatedly said over and over and over in this thread is not allowed. Slipshade even reminded you of this immediately after you asked if there was still an opening!
If you really want to get technical, you also missed everything we posted in the Recruitment Thread, not least of which was my elaboration on what constitutes ‘specifically explained’, which is NOT the same as ‘come up with generic remotely plausible definition that anyone could come up with in 10 seconds flat’.
You did not follow the rules on the site for four of the five concepts posted above, and I even missed one of the ones (Feeler) that didn’t.
You did not follow the guidelines and answers to questions we’ve posted multiple times in this thread, several of which specifically addressed some of the things you wanted to do.
All of this shows me you clearly did not, in fact do your homework by reading the thread and the wiki since you then posted concepts with components that we just told you we did not want to see.
And then, instead of asking for clarification on where you may have gone wrong or politely presenting why you believe you are in the right, you decide to just go off and then justify it with, ‘I get really defensive when I've rigorously followed the letter of the law to the T and someone complains that I'm not following the rules. So my apologies but what I said still stands.’
If you want to get defensive fine, but for someone who ‘rigorously followed the letter of the law to a T’, the results don’t match the claims. I wasn’t complaining you weren’t following the rules; I was telling you you weren’t following the rules. There’s a world of difference between the two.
Instead of getting defensive, why not ask what someone else sees before getting all snippy about it? We’re here to help people, as even a remote perusal of this thread would have shown, and we’ve been more than willing to discuss and work with people when we haven’t seen eye to eye with them.
For my part, I apologize for the abrupt nature of my post, it has less to do with your concepts personally and more to do with the fact that was only the 28th time we had to address the same issues.
As far as competing concepts, there’s nothing technically wrong with having multiples of the same concept. Nonetheless, I was pointing out that Feeler would be moving into a niche that Drip (and Child, who I forgot to mention) already occupy. Is that a problem per se? No, but you haven’t done anything to distinguish the concept from them either.
And this comment:
Maybe you ignored the character files when going through the wiki, which is certainly a possibility. Maybe you haven’t read through the IC thread yet. But no one in their right mind would remotely, and I mean REMOTELY assert that Grack is a combat mage.
Sparky is correct, no one is Grack, but that’s because Grack takes it to a whole other level. Beyond that, Axe is basically a toned down version of Grack. It wasn’t a criticism or a rejection, simply saying you basically presented me a character which is already functionally identical in tone, style, and concept to another existing one, without giving me anything that distinguishes this concept from the preexisting one.
If you’d study his concept on the wiki before spouting off, you would have seen the comparisons. Is there room to disagree on my assessment? Sure, but you might want to make sure you have some clue as to what you’re talking about before you start that discussion.
There, now you have a detailed and specific response to your challenge. Satisfied?
As for the rest of your questions, the others have done a great job of providing additional detail for your information. Thanks all for the help everyone.
Dante – Wired Reflexes 3 exceeds both the availability and essence limitation. Monowhip exceeds the availability limitation.
Todd – Contacts exceeded both the maximum Connection Level and types of contacts allowed (high level and well-placed/connected) and the Hung Out to Dry flaw does not exist.
Doc – Specializations pushing skills to a total dice pool higher than 4 are not accepted, which your cybertechnology (bodyware) 3 (+2) would do.
I even missed Feeler having a Shop, which Sparky caught.
QUOTE
I hate to disagree but according to your posted house rules, the only character concept that violates your posted guidelines in any way is Doc, and that's with his high medicine specialization. Even then, it says in your character creation section, and I quote: "Specializations that raise skill dice above 4 (e.g. Blades 3 w/Specialization in Swords would effectively grant 5 skill dice to Sword related rolls) must be specifically explained." Everything I have worked up so far I've rigorously followed the rules posted on your site , and in the very start of the post I wrote that I wasn't married to any of the ideas. They were just quick, down and dirty rough drafts of character concepts for you guys to look at and see if any of them appealed to you. If you dont want more players, then just tell me and I'll stop posting, but unless you have specifics for me please don't just say I'm not following your rules, because I can only go off of what you've posted on your site.
--edit--
I realize that might have sounded bitchy, but I get really defensive when I've rigorously followed the letter of the law to the T and someone complains that I'm not following the rules. So my apologies but what I said still stands. How can a character concept be illegal?
--edit--
I realize that might have sounded bitchy, but I get really defensive when I've rigorously followed the letter of the law to the T and someone complains that I'm not following the rules. So my apologies but what I said still stands. How can a character concept be illegal?
You still want to stand by this statement?
While I’m here, you also had at least some variant of a house rule tacked on to 3 of the 5 characters (Dante, Todd, Doc) which we (Slipshade, Vegas, and myself) have repeatedly said over and over and over in this thread is not allowed. Slipshade even reminded you of this immediately after you asked if there was still an opening!
If you really want to get technical, you also missed everything we posted in the Recruitment Thread, not least of which was my elaboration on what constitutes ‘specifically explained’, which is NOT the same as ‘come up with generic remotely plausible definition that anyone could come up with in 10 seconds flat’.
You did not follow the rules on the site for four of the five concepts posted above, and I even missed one of the ones (Feeler) that didn’t.
You did not follow the guidelines and answers to questions we’ve posted multiple times in this thread, several of which specifically addressed some of the things you wanted to do.
All of this shows me you clearly did not, in fact do your homework by reading the thread and the wiki since you then posted concepts with components that we just told you we did not want to see.
And then, instead of asking for clarification on where you may have gone wrong or politely presenting why you believe you are in the right, you decide to just go off and then justify it with, ‘I get really defensive when I've rigorously followed the letter of the law to the T and someone complains that I'm not following the rules. So my apologies but what I said still stands.’
If you want to get defensive fine, but for someone who ‘rigorously followed the letter of the law to a T’, the results don’t match the claims. I wasn’t complaining you weren’t following the rules; I was telling you you weren’t following the rules. There’s a world of difference between the two.
Instead of getting defensive, why not ask what someone else sees before getting all snippy about it? We’re here to help people, as even a remote perusal of this thread would have shown, and we’ve been more than willing to discuss and work with people when we haven’t seen eye to eye with them.
For my part, I apologize for the abrupt nature of my post, it has less to do with your concepts personally and more to do with the fact that was only the 28th time we had to address the same issues.
As far as competing concepts, there’s nothing technically wrong with having multiples of the same concept. Nonetheless, I was pointing out that Feeler would be moving into a niche that Drip (and Child, who I forgot to mention) already occupy. Is that a problem per se? No, but you haven’t done anything to distinguish the concept from them either.
And this comment:
QUOTE
And in what way is a straight-up gang-warfare soldier in any way similar to a combat mage?
Maybe you ignored the character files when going through the wiki, which is certainly a possibility. Maybe you haven’t read through the IC thread yet. But no one in their right mind would remotely, and I mean REMOTELY assert that Grack is a combat mage.
Sparky is correct, no one is Grack, but that’s because Grack takes it to a whole other level. Beyond that, Axe is basically a toned down version of Grack. It wasn’t a criticism or a rejection, simply saying you basically presented me a character which is already functionally identical in tone, style, and concept to another existing one, without giving me anything that distinguishes this concept from the preexisting one.
If you’d study his concept on the wiki before spouting off, you would have seen the comparisons. Is there room to disagree on my assessment? Sure, but you might want to make sure you have some clue as to what you’re talking about before you start that discussion.
There, now you have a detailed and specific response to your challenge. Satisfied?
As for the rest of your questions, the others have done a great job of providing additional detail for your information. Thanks all for the help everyone.
Havok,
I would guess that that would be WinterRats call, to be honest, but I believe that the use of Aptitude per the site is still ok to use. You are spending the extra bp to get apptitude and BP to raise the skill. Again, final say is WR1's.
But These questions are exactly the hand holding that we don't want to do at the moment, since recruitment is officially over, so your best bet is to either not go with this concept or start thinking of concepts that don't use aptitude.
Best way is to get accepted at this point is to think of an interesting concept that has no rules questions and run with it. IF you can't do that then you may want to wait until we open recruiting again sometime in the future.
Hope that helps.
I would guess that that would be WinterRats call, to be honest, but I believe that the use of Aptitude per the site is still ok to use. You are spending the extra bp to get apptitude and BP to raise the skill. Again, final say is WR1's.
But These questions are exactly the hand holding that we don't want to do at the moment, since recruitment is officially over, so your best bet is to either not go with this concept or start thinking of concepts that don't use aptitude.
Best way is to get accepted at this point is to think of an interesting concept that has no rules questions and run with it. IF you can't do that then you may want to wait until we open recruiting again sometime in the future.
Hope that helps.
Havok
I understand that you've read the char gen rules on the wiki (and that's much appreciated!) However, there are a number of things that various people have been pointing out that don't jive with the spirit, concept and general over all playability of this game... I'm actually with Sparky in the sense that I don't mind similar character concepts and skill sets, as so long as they're not near carbon-copies of an existing PC (or NPC). A few of your concepts have similarities to other PC's, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're carbon copies, it's a fine line to walk.
I'd HIGHLY suggest (if you haven't already) reading through this thread in it entirety so that you can see what other characters have gone through to get approved even at the concept stage. We're brutal about what we let in, and we don't hold that fact back from anyone attempting to join the game. Yes, you may have attempted to follow the chargen rules on the wiki but believe me not everything is on there, or the chargen rules would be a mile long with acceptable and not-acceptable situations for each and every character.
Also reading this thread will give you a better feel for what we're asking for in concepts/backgrounds (i.e. we don't allow contacts to the syndicates and upper tier gangs just because of the power imbalance as well as the feasibility of why someone with those connections would be in a LOW level street gang in Redmond) We are NOT shadowrunners (we may WANT to be some day, but we're not now), we're better than average street scum, but not by much. Everyone is trying to trick out and tweak out their limited BP's, we've ALL been there and know how hard it is. We all end up with some form of a "one trick pony" as a character, because the build points just don't allow us to be really good and lots of things.
In the "official" capacity as has been recently granted to me, I can tell you the following.
* No, you CANNOT have 2 rating 8 items in place of your 1 Rating 12 From the rules "Each mundane character may have one item of up to rating 6 and avail 12." One item that has BOTH a rating up to 6 and an availability of 12 is allowed. Yes it's the same item, and if it's only rating 4 and has an avail of 12, so be it.
* Feeler could have a shop, however that would blow his ONE high rating/high avail. item. So no other gear/cyber/bio for him over a Rating 4 and Avail. 6. Also keep in mind the 1bp = 2,500 nuyen rule with a limit of 20bp spent on resources. Like Sparky pointed out you wouldn't be able to get the mod for a vehicle to make it transportable (because of the avail.) so that causes problems to an extent.
* This is an insanely social game, where a lot of your RP is going to be driven by interacting with the other gang members on your own with out the "hand of the GM" guiding you along every step of the way. WR1 does do major events to steer the plotline, but this is a different sort of animal from your typical "shadowrun" based games on PbP or tabletop. Keep in mind also that The Ravens (the gang) can afford to be a little more particular about who they choose to accept into their ranks. I'm not discouraging you from giving your character quirks or issues or whatever you want to call them, just understand that if it's TOO socially crippling it may have to be changed before playing in game if you're accepted, which could seriously cause you to re-work your character.
* I've got no problem with you imposing your own self restrictions on your flaws (i.e. buying them off with karma before buying any additional skills and the like) however using said flaws to get around rules that are in place (either on the wiki or in this thread) are not acceptable.
* The Aptitude quality does allow you to get the benefit on bp reduction on raising a skill to a 5, however... with the caveat of the No skills alone or specialized above a 4 without VERY GOOD explanation w/ a background to support it. Just having the quality doesn't "allow" it. The concept you've given (even with the alcoholic aspect of the game, which is VERY similar to an NPC in play already FYI) doesn't clearly give the explanation that we'd need to approve it, hence we make the note of it that it's not allowed, because for that it takes a LOT to impress us to say "Yeah we'll approve that"
* We can always use more bruisers, fighters, asskickers etc. They make up the Rank and File of the gang for a reason. Yes we all want our characters to be "special" to have something that they can do that others can't, or that they can do it better than everyone else. I like original character concepts with backgrounds to match, and if you can look over the gang roster on the wiki and find a niche that you feel you can exploit with a character or something that you can fill in the gaps with, by all means go for it.
Everyone else has really said a mouthful already about the concepts and I don't want to repeatedly beat a dead horse or make you feel like you're not welcome to continue to offer a concept to the game.
I understand that you've read the char gen rules on the wiki (and that's much appreciated!) However, there are a number of things that various people have been pointing out that don't jive with the spirit, concept and general over all playability of this game... I'm actually with Sparky in the sense that I don't mind similar character concepts and skill sets, as so long as they're not near carbon-copies of an existing PC (or NPC). A few of your concepts have similarities to other PC's, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're carbon copies, it's a fine line to walk.
I'd HIGHLY suggest (if you haven't already) reading through this thread in it entirety so that you can see what other characters have gone through to get approved even at the concept stage. We're brutal about what we let in, and we don't hold that fact back from anyone attempting to join the game. Yes, you may have attempted to follow the chargen rules on the wiki but believe me not everything is on there, or the chargen rules would be a mile long with acceptable and not-acceptable situations for each and every character.
Also reading this thread will give you a better feel for what we're asking for in concepts/backgrounds (i.e. we don't allow contacts to the syndicates and upper tier gangs just because of the power imbalance as well as the feasibility of why someone with those connections would be in a LOW level street gang in Redmond) We are NOT shadowrunners (we may WANT to be some day, but we're not now), we're better than average street scum, but not by much. Everyone is trying to trick out and tweak out their limited BP's, we've ALL been there and know how hard it is. We all end up with some form of a "one trick pony" as a character, because the build points just don't allow us to be really good and lots of things.
In the "official" capacity as has been recently granted to me, I can tell you the following.
* No, you CANNOT have 2 rating 8 items in place of your 1 Rating 12 From the rules "Each mundane character may have one item of up to rating 6 and avail 12." One item that has BOTH a rating up to 6 and an availability of 12 is allowed. Yes it's the same item, and if it's only rating 4 and has an avail of 12, so be it.
* Feeler could have a shop, however that would blow his ONE high rating/high avail. item. So no other gear/cyber/bio for him over a Rating 4 and Avail. 6. Also keep in mind the 1bp = 2,500 nuyen rule with a limit of 20bp spent on resources. Like Sparky pointed out you wouldn't be able to get the mod for a vehicle to make it transportable (because of the avail.) so that causes problems to an extent.
* This is an insanely social game, where a lot of your RP is going to be driven by interacting with the other gang members on your own with out the "hand of the GM" guiding you along every step of the way. WR1 does do major events to steer the plotline, but this is a different sort of animal from your typical "shadowrun" based games on PbP or tabletop. Keep in mind also that The Ravens (the gang) can afford to be a little more particular about who they choose to accept into their ranks. I'm not discouraging you from giving your character quirks or issues or whatever you want to call them, just understand that if it's TOO socially crippling it may have to be changed before playing in game if you're accepted, which could seriously cause you to re-work your character.
* I've got no problem with you imposing your own self restrictions on your flaws (i.e. buying them off with karma before buying any additional skills and the like) however using said flaws to get around rules that are in place (either on the wiki or in this thread) are not acceptable.
* The Aptitude quality does allow you to get the benefit on bp reduction on raising a skill to a 5, however... with the caveat of the No skills alone or specialized above a 4 without VERY GOOD explanation w/ a background to support it. Just having the quality doesn't "allow" it. The concept you've given (even with the alcoholic aspect of the game, which is VERY similar to an NPC in play already FYI) doesn't clearly give the explanation that we'd need to approve it, hence we make the note of it that it's not allowed, because for that it takes a LOT to impress us to say "Yeah we'll approve that"
* We can always use more bruisers, fighters, asskickers etc. They make up the Rank and File of the gang for a reason. Yes we all want our characters to be "special" to have something that they can do that others can't, or that they can do it better than everyone else. I like original character concepts with backgrounds to match, and if you can look over the gang roster on the wiki and find a niche that you feel you can exploit with a character or something that you can fill in the gaps with, by all means go for it.
Everyone else has really said a mouthful already about the concepts and I don't want to repeatedly beat a dead horse or make you feel like you're not welcome to continue to offer a concept to the game.
OK, I think Rico is done.
Two questions:
1. I've got 18 nuyen left from buying, does that disappear? And do you roll the starting nuyen, divided by the number of days (2) that I've got lifestyle paid for?
2. I wanted a gym membership (the idea being he's working the climbing walls, swimming pool, etc to spend his first 10 karma on the Athletics group).
Two questions:
1. I've got 18 nuyen left from buying, does that disappear? And do you roll the starting nuyen, divided by the number of days (2) that I've got lifestyle paid for?
2. I wanted a gym membership (the idea being he's working the climbing walls, swimming pool, etc to spend his first 10 karma on the Athletics group).
Bearclaw
You can buy Rico a couple of books on chip, or some music or something small with the 18 nu, I know a few of us have done that, something trivial but useful.
As for starting cash, we've just been rolling based off our lifestyles, not divided by anything. So go ahead and do that for now.
I'll give Rico his first once over (as will Slip I'm sure) this afternoon/evening.
You can buy Rico a couple of books on chip, or some music or something small with the 18 nu, I know a few of us have done that, something trivial but useful.
As for starting cash, we've just been rolling based off our lifestyles, not divided by anything. So go ahead and do that for now.
I'll give Rico his first once over (as will Slip I'm sure) this afternoon/evening.
Thank you all for being so helpful. I reworked an old concept and brought out a new one. Ok so here goes, we'll see how this works. Any suggestions or comments would be helpful
Dante: Still sticking with the wired reflexes 2, still sticking with whips (not monowhips, just regular ones or chains for now) and bikes. Giving him a darker past, raised in the burbs, fell in with the "wrong crowd", wanted to be a shadowrunner but wasn't good enough. He got cybered up from a low-life street doc, but the operation laid him up for 6 months, and he still hasn't quite recovered from it. Without money to support himself, and nobody would hire him without a SIN, his luck finally ran out and he wound up on the street, and that's how he fell in with the BB's. After shit went down and he was one of the survivors, he fell in line with the rest of the Boyz in the new Ravens. What Dante really wants in life is a shot at the big money, the fabled shadowrunning industry.
Sly: New concept
As long as he can remember, saftey has lain in not being seen. If the other guy can't see where to put a bullet in your head, you can slit his throat. If you're hungry and nobody can see you, you can eat for free. If Lonestar is after you, just disappear. His parents were killed by gangers while he was still a child, and the government tried to put him in a homeless orphanage with all the other SINless babies. Time and time again, he tried to escape that horrible place, and time and time again they caught him. Until one day he got good enough and made it out. From there he quickly learned that the streets were a bad place, and sometimes you had to do bad things to survive. At his core, Sly is basically a good person, if you ignore the kleptomania and the whole killing people bit. He loves children, he's relatively good looking, and he's always got a kind word for a friend. He's not the person you want at your back though, if you've pissed him off.
Sly is stealthy, intelligent, and capable of being ruthless if necessary, but he prefers not. He has skills with knives and garrotes, pistols, palming/pickpocketing, and some light cyberware. He's been through the mill as far as street-level gangs go, but he's looking for something more in the Ravens. He believes in the gang and will do all he can to forward their cause without putting himself totally at risk.
Dante: Still sticking with the wired reflexes 2, still sticking with whips (not monowhips, just regular ones or chains for now) and bikes. Giving him a darker past, raised in the burbs, fell in with the "wrong crowd", wanted to be a shadowrunner but wasn't good enough. He got cybered up from a low-life street doc, but the operation laid him up for 6 months, and he still hasn't quite recovered from it. Without money to support himself, and nobody would hire him without a SIN, his luck finally ran out and he wound up on the street, and that's how he fell in with the BB's. After shit went down and he was one of the survivors, he fell in line with the rest of the Boyz in the new Ravens. What Dante really wants in life is a shot at the big money, the fabled shadowrunning industry.
Sly: New concept
As long as he can remember, saftey has lain in not being seen. If the other guy can't see where to put a bullet in your head, you can slit his throat. If you're hungry and nobody can see you, you can eat for free. If Lonestar is after you, just disappear. His parents were killed by gangers while he was still a child, and the government tried to put him in a homeless orphanage with all the other SINless babies. Time and time again, he tried to escape that horrible place, and time and time again they caught him. Until one day he got good enough and made it out. From there he quickly learned that the streets were a bad place, and sometimes you had to do bad things to survive. At his core, Sly is basically a good person, if you ignore the kleptomania and the whole killing people bit. He loves children, he's relatively good looking, and he's always got a kind word for a friend. He's not the person you want at your back though, if you've pissed him off.
Sly is stealthy, intelligent, and capable of being ruthless if necessary, but he prefers not. He has skills with knives and garrotes, pistols, palming/pickpocketing, and some light cyberware. He's been through the mill as far as street-level gangs go, but he's looking for something more in the Ravens. He believes in the gang and will do all he can to forward their cause without putting himself totally at risk.
Havok
For what it's worth.. I kinda dig Sly's concept.
For what it's worth.. I kinda dig Sly's concept.
I'm with Vegas.
Lets see some concept for Sly. Develop his background some more.
Bearclaw - I will look Rico over as well as soon as I can.
Lets see some concept for Sly. Develop his background some more.
Bearclaw - I will look Rico over as well as soon as I can.
Unfortunately I don't have time before I leave for work but I'll work up a more in-depth character concept for Sly when I come back. He's a sneaky little bastard, the kind of guy you want on your team cos' he's good at getting stuff, breaking into places, and making the other guys dead before they make you dead, but not the kind of guy you'd want at your back. Because he might still be pissed about you stealing that simchip from him last week.
Actually Sly and Baby would make an excellent B&E team.
I noticed that Ink's basically a Hardware+Maglock specialization away from being indispensable on B&E jobs with that 4 Logic and Lockpicking of his. We've got some sneaky gits in this crew (My guy included!) but so far none of us really combine much in the way of technical know-how AND stealthiness. I was going to tack it onto my build (it costs all of 6 bps, after all), but it just didn't quite seem worth it with Cuervo's underwhelming logic.
ugh, i just popped in to explain my silence.
i have some pretty urgent, last-minute university stuff to take care of. Including moving to another city. So my internet access might be a bit shaky for the next few days.
i have some pretty urgent, last-minute university stuff to take care of. Including moving to another city. So my internet access might be a bit shaky for the next few days.
QUOTE (Meriss @ Apr 2 2008, 04:40 PM)
Actually Sly and Baby would make an excellent B&E team.
Hey, trying to get close to Baby is Twiggs' angle, Back Off!
Baby is good at getting places quietly, but she has no B & E skills. What makes her useful is the combo of knowledges and skills she has.
Though she wouldn't say no to a little B&E.
Dantic - LOL! You poor boy.
Neuntoter - Thanks for the update.
Though she wouldn't say no to a little B&E.
Dantic - LOL! You poor boy.
Neuntoter - Thanks for the update.
Rico
Your numbers look good, but before we pass it on to WR1, I need you to work on Rico's background a little more. Questions 1-13 in your background are all one line answers that really need some work.
Also your personality and description on Rico's main page are only one or two lines. These things are very important. Not only for you, but for others to write takes on Rico and get to know the character a little before interacting. When you have worked on getting his background fleshed out more, then we can send it on to WinterRat1/
Your numbers look good, but before we pass it on to WR1, I need you to work on Rico's background a little more. Questions 1-13 in your background are all one line answers that really need some work.
Also your personality and description on Rico's main page are only one or two lines. These things are very important. Not only for you, but for others to write takes on Rico and get to know the character a little before interacting. When you have worked on getting his background fleshed out more, then we can send it on to WinterRat1/
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Apr 2 2008, 02:55 PM)
I noticed that Ink's basically a Hardware+Maglock specialization away from being indispensable on B&E jobs with that 4 Logic and Lockpicking of his. We've got some sneaky gits in this crew (My guy included!) but so far none of us really combine much in the way of technical know-how AND stealthiness. I was going to tack it onto my build (it costs all of 6 bps, after all), but it just didn't quite seem worth it with Cuervo's underwhelming logic.
Whereas Drip has crazy-go-nuts Hardware, but only 4 dice to infiltration. If you could somehow combine all of us together you might get one good shadowrunner.
Do you think an explosives skill would be justified given the fact that there are absolutely no explosives available within our starting availability? I'm working up a detailed history as I write this And I think Sly would love Baby, in a Leon-Professional-esque manner. (I love that movie)
would that, in fact, then count as your single high-rating item? Or are they simply that readily available on the street, I.E. any ganger worth his salt at least has some scraped-from-the-bottom cyberware in order just to survive?
And I think Sly would love Baby, in a Leon-Professional-esque manner. (I love that movie)QUOTE
Dermal Plating 3, Muscle Replacement 3, Hand Razors, Handblades, and Spurs are allowed regardless of availablility (Shaped Dermal Plating (Augmentation) is not included in this exemption)
would that, in fact, then count as your single high-rating item? Or are they simply that readily available on the street, I.E. any ganger worth his salt at least has some scraped-from-the-bottom cyberware in order just to survive?
Whew. You asked for it, and here it is, three hours later lol. This history means that Sly would be a relative newcomer to the Ravens, I don't know if that would be a problem. I also have an extremely rough draft of a character sheet worked up. The only thing that MIGHT be a question is if the Muscle Replacement falls under the "one high rating item" rule, in which case I just need to replace the Chameleon Suit with a reversi-camo suit.
Sly
Whew, I'm going to sleep now. Everyone have a good night ^_^ I really like what I have here because the concept and character sheet I have so far comes across as a well-adjusted 310 point character instead of a toned-down 400 point character. I couldn't imagine taking this character and simply adding 90 bp, I wouldn't know what to do with it right away.
Sly
[ Spoiler ]
Whew, I'm going to sleep now. Everyone have a good night ^_^ I really like what I have here because the concept and character sheet I have so far comes across as a well-adjusted 310 point character instead of a toned-down 400 point character. I couldn't imagine taking this character and simply adding 90 bp, I wouldn't know what to do with it right away.
QUOTE (Havok @ Apr 3 2008, 01:01 AM)
Do you think an explosives skill would be justified given the fact that there are absolutely no explosives available within our starting availability? I'm working up a detailed history as I write this And I think Sly would love Baby, in a Leon-Professional-esque manner. (I love that movie)
would that, in fact, then count as your single high-rating item? Or are they simply that readily available on the street, I.E. any ganger worth his salt at least has some scraped-from-the-bottom cyberware in order just to survive?
And I think Sly would love Baby, in a Leon-Professional-esque manner. (I love that movie)would that, in fact, then count as your single high-rating item? Or are they simply that readily available on the street, I.E. any ganger worth his salt at least has some scraped-from-the-bottom cyberware in order just to survive?
They're allowed regardless of availability so they DO NOT count towards your 1 Rating6/Avail. 12 item.
Nice start with Sly. I saw you applied for the wiki, let Silp, WR and I talk about the concept you've presented and if it's accepted we'll give you access to the wiki
At that point you can build up his sheet (which is sounds like you've got already) work on answering the 30 Background questions, do the takes for the characters and gangs and then you can submit him for first stage and then final review. Lots of hoops, but they're necessary and we've all jumped through them.As for the demolitions/explosives skills... I'm personally somewhat on the fence on that one.. I mean if you can "justify" him knowing/learning it somehow in his background and you want to blow the points on it with a chance that it may not come into play much (or at all) in game depending on WR's thoughts on obtaining/making explosives.. go for it
Havok
Did you edit more of Sly's background after your original post, because I swear there's some stuff in there that I don't remember reading first thing this morning when I commented. (A lot of the Assassin/Father stuff).
A few things are sticking out to us after a bit of discussion between WR1 and I this afternoon. Namely, the character you've created is an assassin-in-training and not a ganger per se. You've emphasized his skills at killing people stealthily which is more shadowrunner "lite" than gang campaign (even with a 310 bp cap) and you've also talked about a character that is almost bordering on the "anti-PC" type (with his "untrustworthy to watch your back if you stole his simchip last week" type comments) which really doesn't have a place in this game, a vindictive streak against PC's (directly or indirectly) is just flat out not allowed . There is NO PvP violence in this game without very very very (did I say very?) heavy moderation involving the GM and PC's. If that's the basis of your character concept, I'm thinking he's not a good fit for this game. You've got a literal arsenal of weapons compared to the rest of the gang. PC's have maybe one gun, some have none. Having three as you've suggested he's got is a sense of "overkill" here in my eyes.
If we'd even let this concept fly, I can guarantee we are going to expect a lot more fleshing out of "Father" without question. I understand you really love the movie The Professional, but this character seems to be a rip of Mathilda towards the end of the movie. Not trying to stomp all over your character, but there's not the same "suspension of disbelief" in this game as there is in movies. We are going to expect a lot more info on Father's motivations and reasoning behind randomly "kidnapping" a street kid and teaching him everything he knows about professional assassination.
Did you edit more of Sly's background after your original post, because I swear there's some stuff in there that I don't remember reading first thing this morning when I commented. (A lot of the Assassin/Father stuff).
A few things are sticking out to us after a bit of discussion between WR1 and I this afternoon. Namely, the character you've created is an assassin-in-training and not a ganger per se. You've emphasized his skills at killing people stealthily which is more shadowrunner "lite" than gang campaign (even with a 310 bp cap) and you've also talked about a character that is almost bordering on the "anti-PC" type (with his "untrustworthy to watch your back if you stole his simchip last week" type comments) which really doesn't have a place in this game, a vindictive streak against PC's (directly or indirectly) is just flat out not allowed . There is NO PvP violence in this game without very very very (did I say very?) heavy moderation involving the GM and PC's. If that's the basis of your character concept, I'm thinking he's not a good fit for this game. You've got a literal arsenal of weapons compared to the rest of the gang. PC's have maybe one gun, some have none. Having three as you've suggested he's got is a sense of "overkill" here in my eyes.
If we'd even let this concept fly, I can guarantee we are going to expect a lot more fleshing out of "Father" without question. I understand you really love the movie The Professional, but this character seems to be a rip of Mathilda towards the end of the movie. Not trying to stomp all over your character, but there's not the same "suspension of disbelief" in this game as there is in movies. We are going to expect a lot more info on Father's motivations and reasoning behind randomly "kidnapping" a street kid and teaching him everything he knows about professional assassination.
And here I was thinking 'Assassin' with Stallone...
What with Sly and El Diablo and so on...
What with Sly and El Diablo and so on...
QUOTE (Havok @ Apr 3 2008, 12:01 AM)
And I think Sly would love Baby, in a Leon-Professional-esque manner. (I love that movie)
I love how everyone puts Baby as the one in need of protection or the sidekick role.
Havok
I have to admit, when I read your background I thought the same thing that WR1 and Vegas did. Not really a ganger and man this guy really loves The Professional.
I would say dop the guns back downa little. Remember, you will not have a lot of money in this game to buy ammo anyway and drop "Father". Make him a sneaky guy that learned so slit throats to survive not because he had a teacher, but learning from trial and error. I don't mind the trust issue so much myself as long as it is tempered quickly once he gets into the gang. If you are a mistrustful, paranoid, they wouldn't let you in the gang to begin with.
Lol the funny thing is I wasn't even thinking about The Professional when I was making this character. I was mostly just thinking that the gang could use someone good at BnE with some sniping ability 
And on further thought, I gave him 1 point in explosives, "just in case" (I have a feeling this character is going to say that a lot for some reason) I think that improvised explosives could be interesting, like Molotov cocktails and whatnot, homebrew thermite and guncotton.
Ok so Father is out (I was thinking he was some sort of old-school shadowrunner with nothing to lose who wanted to "pass along" his wisdom before getting taken out. Hence the shadowrun-esque nature of the character.)
He really only has 3 guns, a pistol a shotgun and a sniper rifle. I can get rid of either the pistol or the shotgun if you like, or both. Probably the shotgun, even though he has a higher skill with the shotgun the pistol makes more sense to carry around. I'd like to keep the sniper rifle though.
I can get rid of all the nonlethal stuff and replace it with knives and/or ammo. I really like the idea of him using the nonlethal methods though on account of he's actually a decent fellow, and it is all rechargeable as long as you plug it in. And all definately less than availability six.
Vegas I'm not sure if I edited anything after I posted. The stuff about "Father" was in the post when I first put it up though. I did add the appearance, gear, and skillz sections after I posted the initial background, but that was at 2 am this morning.
And as far as the trustworthiness issue, as long as the gang doesn't stab him in the back (in his opinion, I know this wouldn't actually happen) he'll do whatever he can to support it. He absolutely refuses however to hurt children in any way (sorry, that's my own personal morals, I won't roleplay anything of that nature)
Ammo is going to be expensive, yes. But Sly doesn't plan on using his guns except as a last resort, in which case the price of ammo is going to be outweighed by the need for survival. He'd much rather use defensive measures and get himself and whoever's with him the hell out of there. Now that's not to say that he'd run at the first sign of trouble, just that he's smart enough to know that when surrounded by Spikes, dive for the nearest manhole. I'm thinking I should rework his history so he was in the Brickhouse Boys and came across with them, eliminating the trust issue and thus fostering the idea of "He may be a sneaky bastard that creeps you the frag out sometimes, but dammit he's YOUR sneaky bastard. And he just might have saved your life that one time at the quickie mart, but you're not sure, you couldn't see him."
Also, if he was in BBs, that would definately explain him picking up a talent for longarms. That place was perfect for sniper ambushes: tall buildings, easy access, high windows facing street level. And the rifle he has is acutally a hunting rifle I think. Its only availability 4R, which means any kid with a firearms permit could land one. It says in the book it's a sniper though. Hmm.
My main question is... how do you force a kid into a situation where he has to slit someone's throat to survive? And how do you get good enough, fast enough that you dont get killed yourself?
Edit: Got rid of pistols entirely, made him more survivalistic by raising dodge and disguise. He's mostly going to focus on using blades and longarms for combat, with a definate hit-and-run mentality. He's not sturdy enough to survive even a decent hit by a troll with a spear, and so there might be times where running away and surviving to make a counter-attack might be his only option =/ If I could keep both the shotgun and the sniper rifle, I think that might do a lot to increase his survivability by keeping people at a distance. I might have to get him a lined coat to hide the shotgun in.
Further Edit: I just realized that I'm asking for a lot with the sniper rifle, even though it all falls under the rules of the game, just for a ganger to have a sniper rifle means he's going to fawn all over it to the exclusion of all other guns. Which means I'm definately giving up the remington and the ares viper.
And on further thought, I gave him 1 point in explosives, "just in case" (I have a feeling this character is going to say that a lot for some reason) I think that improvised explosives could be interesting, like Molotov cocktails and whatnot, homebrew thermite and guncotton.Ok so Father is out (I was thinking he was some sort of old-school shadowrunner with nothing to lose who wanted to "pass along" his wisdom before getting taken out. Hence the shadowrun-esque nature of the character.)
He really only has 3 guns, a pistol a shotgun and a sniper rifle. I can get rid of either the pistol or the shotgun if you like, or both. Probably the shotgun, even though he has a higher skill with the shotgun the pistol makes more sense to carry around. I'd like to keep the sniper rifle though.
I can get rid of all the nonlethal stuff and replace it with knives and/or ammo. I really like the idea of him using the nonlethal methods though on account of he's actually a decent fellow, and it is all rechargeable as long as you plug it in. And all definately less than availability six.
Vegas I'm not sure if I edited anything after I posted. The stuff about "Father" was in the post when I first put it up though. I did add the appearance, gear, and skillz sections after I posted the initial background, but that was at 2 am this morning.
And as far as the trustworthiness issue, as long as the gang doesn't stab him in the back (in his opinion, I know this wouldn't actually happen) he'll do whatever he can to support it. He absolutely refuses however to hurt children in any way (sorry, that's my own personal morals, I won't roleplay anything of that nature)
Ammo is going to be expensive, yes. But Sly doesn't plan on using his guns except as a last resort, in which case the price of ammo is going to be outweighed by the need for survival. He'd much rather use defensive measures and get himself and whoever's with him the hell out of there. Now that's not to say that he'd run at the first sign of trouble, just that he's smart enough to know that when surrounded by Spikes, dive for the nearest manhole. I'm thinking I should rework his history so he was in the Brickhouse Boys and came across with them, eliminating the trust issue and thus fostering the idea of "He may be a sneaky bastard that creeps you the frag out sometimes, but dammit he's YOUR sneaky bastard. And he just might have saved your life that one time at the quickie mart, but you're not sure, you couldn't see him."
Also, if he was in BBs, that would definately explain him picking up a talent for longarms. That place was perfect for sniper ambushes: tall buildings, easy access, high windows facing street level. And the rifle he has is acutally a hunting rifle I think. Its only availability 4R, which means any kid with a firearms permit could land one. It says in the book it's a sniper though. Hmm.
My main question is... how do you force a kid into a situation where he has to slit someone's throat to survive? And how do you get good enough, fast enough that you dont get killed yourself?
Edit: Got rid of pistols entirely, made him more survivalistic by raising dodge and disguise. He's mostly going to focus on using blades and longarms for combat, with a definate hit-and-run mentality. He's not sturdy enough to survive even a decent hit by a troll with a spear, and so there might be times where running away and surviving to make a counter-attack might be his only option =/ If I could keep both the shotgun and the sniper rifle, I think that might do a lot to increase his survivability by keeping people at a distance. I might have to get him a lined coat to hide the shotgun in.
Further Edit: I just realized that I'm asking for a lot with the sniper rifle, even though it all falls under the rules of the game, just for a ganger to have a sniper rifle means he's going to fawn all over it to the exclusion of all other guns. Which means I'm definately giving up the remington and the ares viper.
Somehow I completely forgot to post this. So here it is:
Sly, 2.0
How's that?
Sly, 2.0
[ Spoiler ]
How's that?
QUOTE (Vegas @ Apr 3 2008, 09:40 AM)
As for the demolitions/explosives skills... I'm personally somewhat on the fence on that one.. I mean if you can "justify" him knowing/learning it somehow in his background and you want to blow the points on it with a chance that it may not come into play much (or at all) in game depending on WR's thoughts on obtaining/making explosives.. go for it
I had actually given this a thought at one point, using Chemistry skill with a specialization in explosives, you'd use fertilizer to make the explosive, it's actually manageable with the restrictions of char building DITG. It may take a few hours, or days even to make the extended test, but should be do-able add demolition at a rating 1, specialized in improvised devices pack some pipe bombs, and if you're feeling really ballsy add throwing weapons skill, specialized in lobbed. add a dose of instability and you've got a whacked out ganger, hanging out the passenger window, slinging pipe bombs and molotov cocktails in a drive by from hell.
Thats a crazy-cool concept, but its not this character hehe. I was thinking explosives more along the lines of rigging up the propane tank underneath the enemy quickie mart to explode while they're on a food run, or setting up an improvised mine to explode underneath one of their trucks. I was thinking about making a crazy chemical specialist that can whip up everything from drugs to BTLs to explosives, but decided that the chance of blowing up the new Ravens HQ was probably a BAD idea.
Neuntoter, lkim, Bearclaw, Eyeless
Guys, here's the deal. I know life gets the best of all of us and time for gaming can be in short supply, but to light a fire under your butts you now have a deadline for getting your characters finalized for review on the wiki. You have until Sunday, April 13th at Midnight CST to get everything complete. If they're not complete by then, I can't promise when your characters will be reviewed and how much time we'll be able to devote to any further questions that arise. Please post here when you guys are good to go so that we can start the review process.
Everyone in this thread (minus those above and Havok)
Ok, in an attempt to help the remaining guys get their stuff in order and ready to go for review can we please refrain from "ganging up" on anyone posting questions unless it's Slip, WR1 or myself? Only because this thread has a tendency to move VERY fast and important things get lost in the abundance of posts. If you've got stuff that needs to be addressed for your characters please do so on the OOC thread and not here. You guys are all live players and while we appreciate the help you guys are offering here, we'd like to unclutter the thread a litte
Thanks guys!
Guys, here's the deal. I know life gets the best of all of us and time for gaming can be in short supply, but to light a fire under your butts you now have a deadline for getting your characters finalized for review on the wiki. You have until Sunday, April 13th at Midnight CST to get everything complete. If they're not complete by then, I can't promise when your characters will be reviewed and how much time we'll be able to devote to any further questions that arise. Please post here when you guys are good to go so that we can start the review process.
Everyone in this thread (minus those above and Havok)
Ok, in an attempt to help the remaining guys get their stuff in order and ready to go for review can we please refrain from "ganging up" on anyone posting questions unless it's Slip, WR1 or myself? Only because this thread has a tendency to move VERY fast and important things get lost in the abundance of posts. If you've got stuff that needs to be addressed for your characters please do so on the OOC thread and not here. You guys are all live players and while we appreciate the help you guys are offering here, we'd like to unclutter the thread a litte
Thanks guys!
OK, I've added a bunch, and I'll keep adding today. Whenever you're ready, Rico's ready.
Bearclaw - Great I will take a look on my lunch.
Bearclaw
I am ok with passing you on to WinterRat. I would still like you to work on some more of the 30 questions, but you have noted that you are currently doing so. Make sure you finish them up. I like the extra information you have added. I can see more of Rico's character coming through which is what we want.
WR1
He's all yours!
I am ok with passing you on to WinterRat. I would still like you to work on some more of the 30 questions, but you have noted that you are currently doing so. Make sure you finish them up. I like the extra information you have added. I can see more of Rico's character coming through which is what we want.
WR1
He's all yours!
Heya, just checking in Are there any improvements I can see that need to be made in my concept? Also, I wanted to leave an encouraging note for the DMs. I'll admit when I first posted on this forum I was just looking for a down-and-dirty pbp shadowrun game, without any hope for more. However seeing the amount of effort WR-1, Vegas, and everyone else has put into this game is amazing. I have actually run PBP games before, and I've DMed tabletop shadowrun, and I can say with certainty that in my 5 years of gaming\dming shadowrun I've NEVER seen this level of polish and detail before. This isn't just a game, this is a story being told by multiple points of view. The events that are going to take place in this game could easily make the next shadowrun novel by themselves. So, mad props to WR-1 for putting the whole thing together. If you wanted to make a game of truly epic proportions, you've succeeded. This is so much more than the characters involved, and its more than the dms too. I really am lucky to have gotten a chance to be a part of something this intense and realistic. Let me tell you, I've never felt more in touch with a character, and I haven't even finished making him yet! But I'm already having to put myself in his brain just to hope to have some possibility of doing WR-1's storytelling justice.
In summation, after reading my eyes off for the last 3 days, I have to say you guys have succeeded beyond my wildest expectations. (The eyes!!! They're meltinnggg...)
I'm glad to be in some way a part of this, and even if I'm not accepted I look forward to reading some awesome roleplaying and storytelling.
Are there any improvements I can see that need to be made in my concept? Also, I wanted to leave an encouraging note for the DMs. I'll admit when I first posted on this forum I was just looking for a down-and-dirty pbp shadowrun game, without any hope for more. However seeing the amount of effort WR-1, Vegas, and everyone else has put into this game is amazing. I have actually run PBP games before, and I've DMed tabletop shadowrun, and I can say with certainty that in my 5 years of gaming\dming shadowrun I've NEVER seen this level of polish and detail before. This isn't just a game, this is a story being told by multiple points of view. The events that are going to take place in this game could easily make the next shadowrun novel by themselves. So, mad props to WR-1 for putting the whole thing together. If you wanted to make a game of truly epic proportions, you've succeeded. This is so much more than the characters involved, and its more than the dms too. I really am lucky to have gotten a chance to be a part of something this intense and realistic. Let me tell you, I've never felt more in touch with a character, and I haven't even finished making him yet! But I'm already having to put myself in his brain just to hope to have some possibility of doing WR-1's storytelling justice.In summation, after reading my eyes off for the last 3 days, I have to say you guys have succeeded beyond my wildest expectations. (The eyes!!! They're meltinnggg...)
I'm glad to be in some way a part of this, and even if I'm not accepted I look forward to reading some awesome roleplaying and storytelling.
Havok
Thanks. It is very much appreciated by everyone involved in the game.
As for your character, we (WR1, Vegas and I) have some serious concerns.
1. Sly is still way too much of an assassin. His personality is borderline psychotic from what we can see. Even Legion isn’t a cold blooded killer. Other than Red October, most of the gang violence doesn’t necessarily involve killing. Sure rumbles occur, but mostly they are with fists, sticks and blades. Someone who can kill without remorse is actually a danger to small time gangs in my opinion, let along someone willing to blown up other gangs if they are slighted.
Personality has to change. When I first read Sly, I thought “Cool. A sneaky street kid, who was so down in the dumps that he had to learn to survive by ambushing other gutter trash for food and such.� Then he turned into something very different than what I expected and what the other GM’s expected.
2. No demolitions more than a Malatov at this point.
3. Stay focused on the small time gang aspect of this game. Anything that remotely smacks of Shadowrunner, or a professional at any type of crime is gonna be a no. We are all amateurs or not even that.
Do you think Sly can be modified to fit these guidelines and still be enjoyable for you to play?
Vegas and WR1 - Anything else to add?
P.S. Yes I know Grack is different, but he is faggin’ insane!
Thanks. It is very much appreciated by everyone involved in the game.
As for your character, we (WR1, Vegas and I) have some serious concerns.
1. Sly is still way too much of an assassin. His personality is borderline psychotic from what we can see. Even Legion isn’t a cold blooded killer. Other than Red October, most of the gang violence doesn’t necessarily involve killing. Sure rumbles occur, but mostly they are with fists, sticks and blades. Someone who can kill without remorse is actually a danger to small time gangs in my opinion, let along someone willing to blown up other gangs if they are slighted.
Personality has to change. When I first read Sly, I thought “Cool. A sneaky street kid, who was so down in the dumps that he had to learn to survive by ambushing other gutter trash for food and such.� Then he turned into something very different than what I expected and what the other GM’s expected.
2. No demolitions more than a Malatov at this point.
3. Stay focused on the small time gang aspect of this game. Anything that remotely smacks of Shadowrunner, or a professional at any type of crime is gonna be a no. We are all amateurs or not even that.
Do you think Sly can be modified to fit these guidelines and still be enjoyable for you to play?
Vegas and WR1 - Anything else to add?
P.S. Yes I know Grack is different, but he is faggin’ insane!
I just want to clarify no one is saying he can't be a sneaky fighter. We're not saying you have to make a straight-up fighter.
The issue is the attitude/mentality, which is nearly amoral with respects to killing. Even the most hardcore characters in Kingsgate aren't amoral. They might be jaded and cynical, but they haven't reached a point in which all life is completely irrelvant to them.
I just don't see one knifing and accidental killing as being sufficient to suddenly transform someone into a stone cold killer.
Additionally, it really hurts your ability to bond with your fellow gangers. Who wants to trust someone who could knife them in the back without blinking an eye? We the players know that's not going to be allowed, but the characters themselves don't know that and would react accordingly.
I really liked your 'sneaky B&E' original idea; if you want to expand that to say he fights sneaky too I have no problems with it, but the nonchalant icy killer thing has to go.
Does that make sense? The key issue is not mechanics or tactics, it's personality and mental attitude. Beyond that change, I think the rest of the concept is pretty solid.
The issue is the attitude/mentality, which is nearly amoral with respects to killing. Even the most hardcore characters in Kingsgate aren't amoral. They might be jaded and cynical, but they haven't reached a point in which all life is completely irrelvant to them.
I just don't see one knifing and accidental killing as being sufficient to suddenly transform someone into a stone cold killer.
Additionally, it really hurts your ability to bond with your fellow gangers. Who wants to trust someone who could knife them in the back without blinking an eye? We the players know that's not going to be allowed, but the characters themselves don't know that and would react accordingly.
I really liked your 'sneaky B&E' original idea; if you want to expand that to say he fights sneaky too I have no problems with it, but the nonchalant icy killer thing has to go.
Does that make sense? The key issue is not mechanics or tactics, it's personality and mental attitude. Beyond that change, I think the rest of the concept is pretty solid.
Maybe I'm going at this the wrong way, and instead of providing you with a laid-out concept I'm trying to write a history explaining the concept in my head.
My idea for Sly is not of some uber-professional, sniping people down and racking up confirmed kills (I even bought gel rounds for the sniper rifle lmao) My idea was of a kid just trying to stay under the radar because that's where he's safe, being forced into situations where he had to kill just to survive - wanting to survive so he got good at it, and finally finding a "family" who will not only take him as he is, they'll actually see him as useful. And then he has to watch that family get wiped out (Red October). He'd be happy if he could just chill with the October Ravens and steal stuff for them\help them get into places, that's what he's really good at. But if he has to, he's got the skills to put the hurt on anyone trying to mess with his family.
Completely ignoring the histories I've posted for him, does the concept itself make sense?
I've just been trying to figure out ways to make him not have to run away every time a fight breaks out, I guess it came off sounding a little too coldly professional. Because I also understand that if you dont have your homies' backs, its not the other gangs you have to worry about.
--Edit--
I decided that it might be a good idea if I put a list of preliminary skills up for you, so here it is
My idea for Sly is not of some uber-professional, sniping people down and racking up confirmed kills (I even bought gel rounds for the sniper rifle lmao) My idea was of a kid just trying to stay under the radar because that's where he's safe, being forced into situations where he had to kill just to survive - wanting to survive so he got good at it, and finally finding a "family" who will not only take him as he is, they'll actually see him as useful. And then he has to watch that family get wiped out (Red October). He'd be happy if he could just chill with the October Ravens and steal stuff for them\help them get into places, that's what he's really good at. But if he has to, he's got the skills to put the hurt on anyone trying to mess with his family.
Completely ignoring the histories I've posted for him, does the concept itself make sense?
I've just been trying to figure out ways to make him not have to run away every time a fight breaks out, I guess it came off sounding a little too coldly professional. Because I also understand that if you dont have your homies' backs, its not the other gangs you have to worry about.
--Edit--
I decided that it might be a good idea if I put a list of preliminary skills up for you, so here it is
[ Spoiler ]
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