Ok i have a few points to make.....
1. im sorry about getting confused about the cremak blast but if i am not mistaken Artifacter did bring in technology more advanced than whut they had in the fourth world someone please correct me if im wrong.
2. If in fact i am correct this would mean that by now he would have more advanced technology than we do and in 3000 years he will still have more technology than we do. And pus if you remember he is an elemental his intellegence is determined by his force. And also If you remember his force is so hight that it took not one but several dragons to summon him. This means his intellegence would probably be at least in the high double to the low or middle triple digits giving him an intellegence of at the very least least 100 but more realistically around 200 ok compair that to your gropue of researchers with an average intellegence of 6. Who do you think will have more advanced technology in 3000 years? And this is just ONE midpowered horror i say ONE midpowered horror.
2. just the fact that the story writers mentioned that Verjigorm made the world probably makes it true.
3. Do you honestly think that Verjigorm would make a race that could every really destroy him? Seriously have u every played a strategy game like command and conqure and put the AI down on the lowest level just cause u wanted to have a little fun with the computer even though ocasionally it does something smart and take out a few of your buildings? But in the long run you know that the enemy you created has no chance in hell of stopping your assault.
4. I do realize that nightslayer was able to temporalary stop Verjigorm but if you also remember that rigth before he was stoped and temporalary contained Verjigorm he was vaporized. Which means that Verjigorm was more powerful than nightslayer. Even though Verjigorm made a mistake and allowed nightslayer to temporalary gaint he upper hand.
Ok so lets recap the situation Verjigorm is like the human player against the computer. We are the computer AI set on the lowest possible setting. So in short Verjigorm created us so he would have something to toy with and have fun slaughtering. he created creatures like nightslayer because he wanted a little more of a challange. His challenging creations are all gone except for the dragons which were created by nightslayer and they still arnt much of a challange to Verjigorm.
In short we are screwed.........
Full Version: Can we beatt he Horrors?
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In response to what someone said a while back that dragons are essentially horrors: According to draconic myth it was indeed a horror-type creature who created the dragons, but it was also the creature that created all of the other races so by that logic humans are horrors in a way.
As for the adepts that can explode and send a shockwave down the horror mark: WOOP! Just give all of the clones in the armies armies we send-out this power.
FAB would probably be highly effective against the less powerful masses and the construct peons.
If it's possible to fit initiate-graded mages into bacteria-sized boxes then I find it possible that humans could create our own similar creatures from a FAB-III base. Fill the earth's atmosphere with clouds of them, or even better fill the metaplane at the gap between worlds with them, and watch as the clouds spread into the horror metaplanes. Of course we do then have the problem of a world filled with nasty bacteria, or the have the next scourge a swarm of nasty 10000-years evolved versions of FAB
Regardless; Killing Verjigorm and humanity surviving is, I would say, the most important part of defeating the horrors. I very much doubt even verjigorm could survive a dual-natured fusion bomb, if he does then we'll just send another at him. He could damage-shift the first, but the second (after the first killed everything within LOS) would probably nail him.
As for the adepts that can explode and send a shockwave down the horror mark: WOOP! Just give all of the clones in the armies armies we send-out this power.
FAB would probably be highly effective against the less powerful masses and the construct peons.
If it's possible to fit initiate-graded mages into bacteria-sized boxes then I find it possible that humans could create our own similar creatures from a FAB-III base. Fill the earth's atmosphere with clouds of them, or even better fill the metaplane at the gap between worlds with them, and watch as the clouds spread into the horror metaplanes. Of course we do then have the problem of a world filled with nasty bacteria, or the have the next scourge a swarm of nasty 10000-years evolved versions of FAB
Regardless; Killing Verjigorm and humanity surviving is, I would say, the most important part of defeating the horrors. I very much doubt even verjigorm could survive a dual-natured fusion bomb, if he does then we'll just send another at him. He could damage-shift the first, but the second (after the first killed everything within LOS) would probably nail him.
I agree that "darke" is a position. Kinda like "brackhaven", IMO.
As for Darke informing the bosses of the advances made...meh, you can try to explain what a 50megaton nuke is but until you see one ripping through your front lines it probably won't have the same effect.
("Why yes, Mr. Darke, I know exactly what 50 thousand tons of TNT can do...um, what was this T-N-T you spoke of again?)
Yes, Horatio, there is information exchange. Its not "free" but you can do it if you want. Take for instance, the internet. You don't need wide open lines all you need is the ability to make use of them should you need. Like if a Horde of inhuman monsters come calling. Its a lot easier now to contact someone in Hawaii than it was in the Fourth Age, yes?
And AGAIN I'll say: yes we need Kaers but not as hidding spots. As bases, Like "The Spirits Within". I don't think you could on about your bussines when the Scourge comes and then check out the after action reports on the Trid. Or whatever they use in 3000years.
And it won't be FAB III. It'll be more like FAB 3000. I expect it'll be taliored to specificly target Horror Auras.
As for Darke informing the bosses of the advances made...meh, you can try to explain what a 50megaton nuke is but until you see one ripping through your front lines it probably won't have the same effect.
("Why yes, Mr. Darke, I know exactly what 50 thousand tons of TNT can do...um, what was this T-N-T you spoke of again?)
Yes, Horatio, there is information exchange. Its not "free" but you can do it if you want. Take for instance, the internet. You don't need wide open lines all you need is the ability to make use of them should you need. Like if a Horde of inhuman monsters come calling. Its a lot easier now to contact someone in Hawaii than it was in the Fourth Age, yes?
And AGAIN I'll say: yes we need Kaers but not as hidding spots. As bases, Like "The Spirits Within". I don't think you could on about your bussines when the Scourge comes and then check out the after action reports on the Trid. Or whatever they use in 3000years.
And it won't be FAB III. It'll be more like FAB 3000. I expect it'll be taliored to specificly target Horror Auras.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Regardless; Killing Verjigorm and humanity surviving is, I would say, the most important part of defeating the horrors. I very much doubt even verjigorm could survive a dual-natured fusion bomb, if he does then we'll just send another at him. He could damage-shift the first, but the second (after the first killed everything within LOS) would probably nail him. |
Actually, once there are nothing alive for the Horrors to damage shift, then all we need to do is keep damage on Verjigorm. He'll damage shift to other Horrors and when the others all die out, he'll have nobody to damage shift to. Better yet, target all of them and let them all damage shift to each other... When all this perverse damage shifting musical chairs is over, they'll all be left standing and oops, be taking full damage.
@ Joker:
No dude, we're not screwed. Haven't you rever been beaten a computer?
There's no "restart" fo the Big V.
You gotta be more positive, man!! You're Human! We rock!! Top of the food chain...since the last Scourge. And the Horrors don't get to just jump ahead when they show. They have to fight for that spot. And thats I fight I say humanity can win.
GO METAHUMANS!!
No dude, we're not screwed. Haven't you rever been beaten a computer?
There's no "restart" fo the Big V.
You gotta be more positive, man!! You're Human! We rock!! Top of the food chain...since the last Scourge. And the Horrors don't get to just jump ahead when they show. They have to fight for that spot. And thats I fight I say humanity can win.
GO METAHUMANS!!
What force the dragons could have summoned artificer at depends on what is reasonably possible. If we really want to find-out what the most powerful spirit that dragons could have reasonably summoned (by the SR rules) lets look at the stats.
Taking 10 great dragons (this is probably a generous estimate due to the problems of getting them all in the same place during the scourge, or getting them all to work together, or getting them all into a circle) with conjuring skills of around 13 (equal to the willpower stat of a great dragon, some would have more and some less) we have 130 dice. Working on the Shadowrun dice roll probability calculator rolling 130 dice with 500 karma pool for rerolls (that's 31 rerolls) available, the best force they could reasonably conjure would be around 29 before the probabilities drop below 50%, 21 if you want a nearly 100% chance. That's assuming a you want a single success and any more would be bought using excess karma pool (if any). OK: it could have bought up its force a bit using karma, and your guess is as good as mine as to how much karma it managed to accumulate (I'm assuming it can only take it from people free-spirit style rather than develop its own). Also note that the various horror powers probably cost karma to learn.
Taking 10 great dragons (this is probably a generous estimate due to the problems of getting them all in the same place during the scourge, or getting them all to work together, or getting them all into a circle) with conjuring skills of around 13 (equal to the willpower stat of a great dragon, some would have more and some less) we have 130 dice. Working on the Shadowrun dice roll probability calculator rolling 130 dice with 500 karma pool for rerolls (that's 31 rerolls) available, the best force they could reasonably conjure would be around 29 before the probabilities drop below 50%, 21 if you want a nearly 100% chance. That's assuming a you want a single success and any more would be bought using excess karma pool (if any). OK: it could have bought up its force a bit using karma, and your guess is as good as mine as to how much karma it managed to accumulate (I'm assuming it can only take it from people free-spirit style rather than develop its own). Also note that the various horror powers probably cost karma to learn.
Add to the fact,that dragons could have foci,and magical items that would make IE's drool.
Think of a magical item that lowered magical TNs by say 20.
Hell think of the meta-magics those dragons had.They may had the ability to make "great" great form spirits.
We,don't know everything about dragons,and what they have. Wile,I'll admit one 29 for that matter is scary.
Think of a magical item that lowered magical TNs by say 20.
Hell think of the meta-magics those dragons had.They may had the ability to make "great" great form spirits.
We,don't know everything about dragons,and what they have. Wile,I'll admit one 29 for that matter is scary.
Well, for one there is no canon evisence that an item that lowers conjuring TNs by 20 could exist. You might as well say "Imagine the dragons made made a weapon that could kill all of the horrors" or something else silly. Until there is a canon way to lower base TNs then I'd say it's impossible.
29 is scarily high but the vast numbers of scientists humanity have could probably advance technology far faster than a single 29-intelligence entity. Other horrors could help him but I doubt you'll see horrors working together in that way. Don't forget that Artificer would also have to buy-up the skills to investigate technology to reasonable levels otherwise he's defaulting (and point-blank can't do anything with a TN higher than 8 ). There's a limit to how far he can get once he runs out of karma to buy his next skill up.
29 is scarily high but the vast numbers of scientists humanity have could probably advance technology far faster than a single 29-intelligence entity. Other horrors could help him but I doubt you'll see horrors working together in that way. Don't forget that Artificer would also have to buy-up the skills to investigate technology to reasonable levels otherwise he's defaulting (and point-blank can't do anything with a TN higher than 8 ). There's a limit to how far he can get once he runs out of karma to buy his next skill up.
Re: the Horrors making advancements.
I was thinking that they would have made little, if any. Humans are the ones fighting wars and thats where most of our advancement has come from. I find it hard to believe that the Horrors have RnD labs set up in the Metaplanes. The Invae don't...Nor do any spirits that I know of.
I was thinking that they would have made little, if any. Humans are the ones fighting wars and thats where most of our advancement has come from. I find it hard to believe that the Horrors have RnD labs set up in the Metaplanes. The Invae don't...Nor do any spirits that I know of.
| QUOTE |
| In response to what someone said a while back that dragons are essentially horrors: According to draconic myth it was indeed a horror-type creature who created the dragons, but it was also the creature that created all of the other races so by that logic humans are horrors in a way. |
Ok so that just proves my point further. We have been made iferior to a creature that was made so that Verjigorm could have a moderate challange. im not seeing an upside here.
| QUOTE |
| As for the adepts that can explode and send a shockwave down the horror mark: WOOP! Just give all of the clones in the armies armies we send-out this power. |
Ok if im not mistaken and someone correct me if i am. They couldnt send a shockwave to the horror they could just use this power to locate it and fight it head on. I said fight not win.
| QUOTE |
| @ Joker: No dude, we're not screwed. Haven't you rever been beaten a computer? There's no "restart" fo the Big V. You gotta be more positive, man!! You're Human! We rock!! Top of the food chain...since the last Scourge. And the Horrors don't get to just jump ahead when they show. They have to fight for that spot. And thats I fight I say humanity can win. GO METAHUMANS!! |
yes ive beaten the computer ruthelessly about a thousand times thats my point. Verjigorm is like the guy using the computer. We are like the computer AI on the lowest setting.
| QUOTE |
| What force the dragons could have summoned artificer at depends on what is reasonably possible. If we really want to find-out what the most powerful spirit that dragons could have reasonably summoned (by the SR rules) lets look at the stats. Taking 10 great dragons (this is probably a generous estimate due to the problems of getting them all in the same place during the scourge, or getting them all to work together, or getting them all into a circle) with conjuring skills of around 13 (equal to the willpower stat of a great dragon, some would have more and some less) we have 130 dice. Working on the Shadowrun dice roll probability calculator rolling 130 dice with 500 karma pool for rerolls (that's 31 rerolls) available, the best force they could reasonably conjure would be around 29 before the probabilities drop below 50%, 21 if you want a nearly 100% chance. That's assuming a you want a single success and any more would be bought using excess karma pool (if any). OK: it could have bought up its force a bit using karma, and your guess is as good as mine as to how much karma it managed to accumulate (I'm assuming it can only take it from people free-spirit style rather than develop its own). Also note that the various horror powers probably cost karma to learn. |
Ok if you want to bring out the rulebook lets...
1. This would NOT fall under the category of ritual sorcey. This would be called ritual conjuring. And as of yet their are NO cannon rules for it.
2. Your making the assunption that ritual conjuring would follow the same rules as ritual sorcery. I dont see how they would the game makes a very clear distinction between sorcery and conjuring. the same rules dont nessicaralary need to apply to both. And untill they publish CANNON rules for it arguing this point is utterly pointless.
| QUOTE |
| Well, for one there is no canon evisence that an item that lowers conjuring TNs by 20 could exist. You might as well say "Imagine the dragons made made a weapon that could kill all of the horrors" or something else silly. Until there is a canon way to lower base TNs then I'd say it's impossible. 29 is scarily high but the vast numbers of scientists humanity have could probably advance technology far faster than a single 29-intelligence entity. Other horrors could help him but I doubt you'll see horrors working together in that way. Don't forget that Artificer would also have to buy-up the skills to investigate technology to reasonable levels otherwise he's defaulting (and point-blank can't do anything with a TN higher than 8 ). There's a limit to how far he can get once he runs out of karma to buy his next skill up. |
Your making the assumption other metal elementals havent been corrupted and arnt working with Art. They very well could have a hundred or so force 10 metal elementals working with Art hell he could even have the power to corrupt other metal elementals to help him if this is the case he could have well over a hundred metal elementals working with him. Noone knows but the horrors themselves. I do realize that their is a possibilty that he is in fact the only one. And about the horrors working together it has been said before that their are no rules that apply to every horror. I realize that the vast majority of foot soldiers will not and would never work together like that. It is the generals that more than likely would and those are the ones that you have to watch out for.
| QUOTE |
| Until there is a canon way to lower base TNs then I'd say it's impossible. |
Their are cannon ways to lower the base TN while conjuring their called edges Homeground, Aptitude, and i think Spirit affinity (dont have my books with me). These each lower the BASE TN by one.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| Re: the Horrors making advancements. I was thinking that they would have made little, if any. Humans are the ones fighting wars and thats where most of our advancement has come from. I find it hard to believe that the Horrors have RnD labs set up in the Metaplanes. The Invae don't...Nor do any spirits that I know of. |
like you said nor do any spirits that you know of. It has been said before that horrors are different from spirits. I would like to know exactly how they are different from spirits someone with the ED sourcebooks please step in and elaborate. And untill you have gone to the horrors metaplane and found out yourself you cannot say for sure that they do not have magical RnD labs set up. I for one think its extremely hard to belive that humans can advance and learn while another equally smart race cannot. Or that Verjigorm the Uber Horror and the one responsible for the creation of all things in the SR universe cannot.
Because they are antagonists. And antagonists don't advance unless the Gm wants them to.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| Because they are antagonists. And antagonists don't advance unless the Gm wants them to. |
That has got to be the most MUNCHKIN and UNREALISTICALLY STUPID thing I have ever heard. Thats like saying that big 6'7 300lb lineman cannot beat my 5'0 120lb ass because I dont want him to.
| QUOTE |
| Joker9125 Posted on Jan 2 2004, 06:18 AM QUOTE (kevyn668) Because they are antagonists. And antagonists don't advance unless the Gm wants them to. That has got to be the most MUNCHKIN and UNREALISTICALLY STUPID thing I have ever heard. Thats like saying that big 6'7 300lb lineman cannot beat my 5'0 120lb ass because I dont want him to. |
(Unreallistically stupid? Try explaining this debate to someone that doesn't rollplay.)
I don't really follow you but....
Actually, its not. And you shouldn't call my ideas stupid. Especially when they are a joke. (did you not see the
??)Theres no curve for NPCs, they get better based on how the players advance. Unless you give karma to your NPCs and let them advance that way.
I also stand by my earlier statement that there are no RnD labs in Horror space. Until you go there and see them and then report back to me, I'll continue my belief.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) | ||
(Unreallistically stupid? Try explaining this debate to someone that doesn't rollplay.) I don't really follow you but.... Actually, its not. And you shouldn't call my ideas stupid. Especially when they are a joke. (did you not see the ??)Theres no curve for NPCs, they get better based on how the players advance. Unless you give karma to your NPCs and let them advance that way. I also stand by my earlier statement that there are no RnD labs in Horror space. Until you go there and see them and then report back to me, I'll continue my belief. |
1. I would love to see you explain to a person who dosent roleplay or just anyone for that matter how a race of equally smart or smarter sentient beingsns cound not advanvce as humans can. Common sense would tell anyone that that idea is just lunacy.
2. No i didnt realize that you were joking ill try to more aware of the emoticons from now on
3. Horrors are not normal NPC's these arnt you street gang bosses or even high level combat mages these are beings that make great dragons shit themselves at night in fear.
4. About the thing about the linebacker. I meant that saying they dont advance unless the GM tells them to is like saying that noone in the world could ever beat you simply because you dont want them to.
5. You continue your belife and ill continue mine. It is possible to sicerly belive something and be sincerly wrong. Yes i know that that statement goes both ways
| QUOTE (Joker9125 @ Jan 2 2004, 06:18 AM) | ||
That has got to be the most MUNCHKIN and UNREALISTICALLY STUPID thing I have ever heard. Thats like saying that big 6'7 300lb lineman cannot beat my 5'0 120lb ass because I dont want him to. |
Considering that Shadowrun is a game, and there are no Horrors in real life, that isn't say much. The writters can pretty much do whatever they like...
Besides, I bet my Munchkin Force™ will whip those Horrors in no time - all within the rules of course, cause Mr. Lawyer wouldn't like that.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (Joker9125 @ Jan 2 2004, 06:18 AM) QUOTE (kevyn668) Because they are antagonists. And antagonists don't advance unless the Gm wants them to. That has got to be the most MUNCHKIN and UNREALISTICALLY STUPID thing I have ever heard. Thats like saying that big 6'7 300lb lineman cannot beat my 5'0 120lb ass because I dont want him to. Considering that Shadowrun is a game, and there are no Horrors in real life, that isn't say much. The writters can pretty much do whatever they like... Besides, I bet my Munchkin Force™ will whip those Horrors in no time - all within the rules of course, cause Mr. Lawyer wouldn't like that. |
Maybe i should have used Illogical in place of unrealistic it would probably convey my point a bit better. Yes i realize that everything about shadowrun is unrealistic. Their is magic, dragons, horrors, and the like none of which are in real life. But when playing a fantasy RPG you must play using logic and what makes sense with the rules of the world that has been placed before you. Yet you must also realize that humas wrote the rules so their are going to be mistakes and errors throughout the entire thing. In short when all else fails and you are faced with a tough situation that the rules dont cover you have to sit and think to yourself what makes sense?
| QUOTE |
| 1. I would love to see you explain to a person who dosent roleplay or just anyone for that matter how a race of equally smart or smarter sentient beingsns cound not advanvce as humans can. Common sense would tell anyone that that idea is just lunacy. |
Right. Comman sense would also tell anyone that debating the combat functionality of Demons is just lunacy. I was refering to the explaining of the "Horrors" and "6th World". Guess I should make more use of the sarcasm smiley.
| QUOTE |
| 3. Horrors are not normal NPC's these arnt you street gang bosses or even high level combat mages these are beings that make great dragons shit themselves at night in fear. |
In fact, yes they are. NPCs are NPCs. Thats all there is to it. And I seriously doubt that Lofwyr shits himself at night in fear. Feel free to tell me otherwise if he confides in you. *note:
*| QUOTE |
| 4. About the thing about the linebacker. I meant that saying they dont advance unless the GM tells them to is like saying that noone in the world could ever beat you simply because you dont want them to. |
I think we're having a syntax problem here. When I said "advance" I meant progress in power/skill/level/etc. Not "advance" as in "move forward"
| QUOTE |
| 5. You continue your belife and ill continue mine. It is possible to sicerly belive something and be sincerly wrong. Yes i know that that statement goes both ways |
Good. There's nothing wrong w/ your belief, or mine, for that matter. We're just having a debate, pal. The fun part is there will ever be an answer. Even if they come out with a Canon reference...I just enjoy the conversation
True... however by the same token, there's too much uncertainty for anyone to make finalized statements on the subject matter at hand to be honest. As far as we could ever guess, over the course of this new year, the writers could greatly swing the balance of power which way they choose.
The point is, given what we know, the war could go either way.
My question is: what's the focus of this argument now? As a poll it’s served its purpose, but to bicker back and forth isn't convincing anyone to any real extent (at least not me).
We could post cannon rules and “what ifs” all year round, only to have FanPro throw everything this topic is about out the window for something totally unexpected. And if certain GM's didn't like that outcome, they'd just change it anyways...
The point is, given what we know, the war could go either way.
My question is: what's the focus of this argument now? As a poll it’s served its purpose, but to bicker back and forth isn't convincing anyone to any real extent (at least not me).
We could post cannon rules and “what ifs” all year round, only to have FanPro throw everything this topic is about out the window for something totally unexpected. And if certain GM's didn't like that outcome, they'd just change it anyways...
Hey, we have a good "nu-huh", "ya-huh" thing going here. There's no need to bring logic into this!
I was basing the argument on the only canon basis there is for using any form of magical ritual involving multiple members. I assume my example to be a somewhat best-case scenario set of rules for Ritual Conjuring showing that a force of high doubble to low tripple figures would be an impossibility. Also note that using those rules all of the dragons involved would probably die from the drain (unless they summoned some ally spirits or something and just dumped the drain on them).
I'll give you that a conjuring Aptitude could lower TNs by one, Homeground by another. But that still only increases the spirit force available by 2 to 31. Regardless, I was responding to a post suggesting a foci that could perform the task and there is no canon basis in SR for a focus that can provide that kind of bonus (and dragons rarely bind foci according to Dot6w).
It dosen't matter how many metal elementals (or whatever form of elementals or horrors) are working with artificer; Unless they have the skill in the field they cannot do anything with a base target number greater than 8 (p85, BBB). My point being that rocket science, and brain surgery, and genetics, and that ilk of skills will very often require tests with TNs greater than 8.
I suspect Artificer could continue his research for a bit, possibly learning new skills when he needs to, but it remains extremely unlikely that artificer could achieve the sort of technological advances that humans, who can specialise in each field as deeply as their karma lets them, and cooperate with other people doing the same.
Now I am assuming one thing here: That there is not some form of 24/7 scourge happening where the scourge happens on different worlds consecutively thus artificer and the like couldn't get technology (or karma) from other worlds.
According to dragon myth Verjigorm accidentally created a creature with more power than he meant to that rebelled against him. The assumption that he did this on purpose to create more sport for himself is unfounded. This also goes for the Computer/AI argument. Deus did stuff that they didn't expect, but it was only due to a kill-switch that hewas eventually defeated. The question is wether or not humans do have kill-switches.
I'll give you that a conjuring Aptitude could lower TNs by one, Homeground by another. But that still only increases the spirit force available by 2 to 31. Regardless, I was responding to a post suggesting a foci that could perform the task and there is no canon basis in SR for a focus that can provide that kind of bonus (and dragons rarely bind foci according to Dot6w).
It dosen't matter how many metal elementals (or whatever form of elementals or horrors) are working with artificer; Unless they have the skill in the field they cannot do anything with a base target number greater than 8 (p85, BBB). My point being that rocket science, and brain surgery, and genetics, and that ilk of skills will very often require tests with TNs greater than 8.
I suspect Artificer could continue his research for a bit, possibly learning new skills when he needs to, but it remains extremely unlikely that artificer could achieve the sort of technological advances that humans, who can specialise in each field as deeply as their karma lets them, and cooperate with other people doing the same.
Now I am assuming one thing here: That there is not some form of 24/7 scourge happening where the scourge happens on different worlds consecutively thus artificer and the like couldn't get technology (or karma) from other worlds.
According to dragon myth Verjigorm accidentally created a creature with more power than he meant to that rebelled against him. The assumption that he did this on purpose to create more sport for himself is unfounded. This also goes for the Computer/AI argument. Deus did stuff that they didn't expect, but it was only due to a kill-switch that hewas eventually defeated. The question is wether or not humans do have kill-switches.
Yes I agree debates such as these are fun
Oh yes: The most important thing to take into account in the Humans Vs Horrors debait is: Which would make the best playing environment?
One where humans all huddle into maticulously warded Kaers, one where all humans become slaves/peons/food for the demons, or one wherehumans can strike blows at the demonic forces.
That's the question that will dictate what happens in SR assuming the timeline ever gets that far.
One where humans all huddle into maticulously warded Kaers, one where all humans become slaves/peons/food for the demons, or one wherehumans can strike blows at the demonic forces.
That's the question that will dictate what happens in SR assuming the timeline ever gets that far.
I'm still chuckling about the Intelligence of 200! 
| QUOTE |
| It dosen't matter how many metal elementals (or whatever form of elementals or horrors) are working with artificer; Unless they have the skill in the field they cannot do anything with a base target number greater than 8 (p85, BBB). My point being that rocket science, and brain surgery, and genetics, and that ilk of skills will very often require tests with TNs greater than 8. |
The real question here is weather or not the horrors can gain karma as humas can. It has been said that horrors are different than spirits again someone with the ED sourcebooks please step in. If they can in fact gain karma then it is very possible that Artificer has been the recipient of some of it and is this is the case he and his minions could very esaily advance as fast as we can. If they cannot gain karma then you are right.
I do admit that my force estimations for Artificer were prolly a bit high but I was also basing the drain on the assumpotion that they would be able to divide the drain load between all of them. Another possibility that crossed my mind they all coud have gone on an astral quest to enlist his help. Unless their is some rule that i have overlooked saying that dragons cannon venture to other metaplanes like the metal metaplane.
| QUOTE |
| The question is wether or not humans do have kill-switches. |
Wouldnt you put a kill switch on anything you created with the ability to harm you?
| QUOTE |
| Oh yes: The most important thing to take into account in the Humans Vs Horrors debait is: Which would make the best playing environment? One where humans all huddle into maticulously warded Kaers, one where all humans become slaves/peons/food for the demons, or one wherehumans can strike blows at the demonic forces. That's the question that will dictate what happens in SR assuming the timeline ever gets that far. |
i agree it would be much more fun to combat the horros. In reality their will prolly be 3 types of people those who run and huddle into Kares, then their would be the fantasy type using the kares as a base for their assaults, and lastly you would have the people left outside of the kares fending for themselves.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I'm still chuckling about the Intelligence of 200! |
Likewise.
As for Horrors getting better: Of course they can't. There's no Shadowrunning in Horrorspace, and we all know Shadowrunning is the only way to get Karma. Also, they haven't got currency and schools, and those are the only way to buy Karma and to get tutoring. So there.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| "Why yes, Mr. Darke, I know exactly what 50 thousand tons of TNT can do...um, what was this T-N-T you spoke of again?" |
You missed a thousand. It ought to be "I know exactly what 50 million tons of TNT can do". That's 31.6 times the Power.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| The question is wether or not humans do have kill-switches. |
In the 4th world, they could've just flicked the switch on everyone they didn't like, and that'd've been it. The end of humanity. But it didn't happen, ergo A) We don't have kill-switches. OR B) We do, but the Horrors forgot/don't know how to use them.
it is stated that verjigorm made the horrors and watched them war against each other. he sat back and watched it going on as it amused him or entertained him. it seems that all the horrors do is constantly scheme and fight amongst each other while not doing so against us. so that is where i assumed they would continue to grow in strength. however it is the individual GM's world, so...
i also got the impression that verjigorm made more and more of these things as they fell in battle, whether on our plane or theirs, so their could be new and improved horrors with abilities that we've never seen.
to point out something in the pro-metahumanity favor. deathstrike and confront horror. two earthdawn adept talents tailored to work against horrors. deathstrike is the blast horror through mark deal people were discussing, though it isn't as powerful as we might wish. a named horror could easily shrug it off as it was an unreduced damage step equal to willpower and toughness. so somewhere around 40 for the really bad ass stalkers. 2D20 + D12 + D10 + D8 average of 40ish. give that to a horror with death rating of over 100 and he doesn't even notice it much. plus it is a one time thing. the adept dies and also has to succeed at making the test in order to inflict damage to begin with.
however confront horror seems much more promising. if perhaps it could be modified ro allow for a ritual team, then it would be fairly effective, i think. there would also want to be an immortal as the one confronting the horror as it only lasts for the lifetime of the person who does it.
i also got the impression that verjigorm made more and more of these things as they fell in battle, whether on our plane or theirs, so their could be new and improved horrors with abilities that we've never seen.
to point out something in the pro-metahumanity favor. deathstrike and confront horror. two earthdawn adept talents tailored to work against horrors. deathstrike is the blast horror through mark deal people were discussing, though it isn't as powerful as we might wish. a named horror could easily shrug it off as it was an unreduced damage step equal to willpower and toughness. so somewhere around 40 for the really bad ass stalkers. 2D20 + D12 + D10 + D8 average of 40ish. give that to a horror with death rating of over 100 and he doesn't even notice it much. plus it is a one time thing. the adept dies and also has to succeed at making the test in order to inflict damage to begin with.
however confront horror seems much more promising. if perhaps it could be modified ro allow for a ritual team, then it would be fairly effective, i think. there would also want to be an immortal as the one confronting the horror as it only lasts for the lifetime of the person who does it.
| QUOTE |
| it seems that all the horrors do is constantly scheme and fight amongst each other while not doing so against us. |
Well, since there might have been some uncertainty earlier about their level of unity in fighting against humans, this pretty much nails it then. It would seem metahumanity on the whole is far more united than that. Scheme and fight is not, after all, all we do.
Still, if they don't do actual Shadowruns, they can't get any Karma.
well then i guess i'd better solidify my "shadows of the netherworlds" sourcebook idea with fanpro so i can beef these baddies up and waste you non-believers.
Man. I go to sleep and the whole conversation runs away without me.
I don't think humans have kill switches. Two reasons. Number one, (meta)humanity was supposedly made by the first great dragon who was spawned from the horrors. We weren't made by Verjigorm himself, and even if we were, kill switches would prevent them from feeding off of our pain and misery.
I have no doubt that the horrors are improving. That's one of the reasons for the Mr. Darke position. You have someone in the enemy ranks gathering information and gaining allies to your cause. Needless to say, the horrors will be well prepared for our technology when they truly start thier invasion. Of course, by the time they start thier invasion, thier allies will have already caused widespread death and devastation to sow confusion and disarray.
Frankly, our technology will be just as much a bane as a help. The thought of Artificer with nanite loaded traps scares the bejezus out of me. He could have his essence within those nanites, causing you extreme pain as they slowly cut your insides apart. Or how about a dual natured fusion bomb that only attacks (meta)human auras? Goddess knows what biological horrors will be unleashed (intelligent Ebola anyone?). The horrors will have marked and allies making the advanced weapons we would already be using. Those advanced weapons will prevent you from having bases of operation from which to strike from, because if they find you base, they'll crack it open like an egg. The horrors will have no problem using nuclear weapons because it just screws the environment up more and brings more misery (and I'm sure they would LOVE you to use them as well as it would further that goal). When the horrors come, it's going to be wholesale slaughter, and they won't care how many are lost on thier side... they just make more at the drop of a hat. For each person we loose, thier dead bodies get used to make constructs. When the horrors invade, it's gonna make all the previous wars combined look like a bar fight.
Hopefully, space will be our one true safe haven. Only problem is, the horrors will have corrupt mages on thier side who may find ways to transport horrors safely into space and keep the mana warp at bay. After all, who knows what magic breakthroughs will have happened by then as well.
Finally, from a writing perspective. The horrors are not just the gang on the street corner type of NPC. They are the embodiement of armageddon. Thier purpose in life is to cause widespread mayhem and destruction. They will be the source of oppression for a couple thousand years while the smart humans huddle in safe havens. That is thier purpose. They are not in the story line to be an easily stopped NPC or an enemy that can be dispatched. They are the never ending enemy.
I don't think humans have kill switches. Two reasons. Number one, (meta)humanity was supposedly made by the first great dragon who was spawned from the horrors. We weren't made by Verjigorm himself, and even if we were, kill switches would prevent them from feeding off of our pain and misery.
I have no doubt that the horrors are improving. That's one of the reasons for the Mr. Darke position. You have someone in the enemy ranks gathering information and gaining allies to your cause. Needless to say, the horrors will be well prepared for our technology when they truly start thier invasion. Of course, by the time they start thier invasion, thier allies will have already caused widespread death and devastation to sow confusion and disarray.
Frankly, our technology will be just as much a bane as a help. The thought of Artificer with nanite loaded traps scares the bejezus out of me. He could have his essence within those nanites, causing you extreme pain as they slowly cut your insides apart. Or how about a dual natured fusion bomb that only attacks (meta)human auras? Goddess knows what biological horrors will be unleashed (intelligent Ebola anyone?). The horrors will have marked and allies making the advanced weapons we would already be using. Those advanced weapons will prevent you from having bases of operation from which to strike from, because if they find you base, they'll crack it open like an egg. The horrors will have no problem using nuclear weapons because it just screws the environment up more and brings more misery (and I'm sure they would LOVE you to use them as well as it would further that goal). When the horrors come, it's going to be wholesale slaughter, and they won't care how many are lost on thier side... they just make more at the drop of a hat. For each person we loose, thier dead bodies get used to make constructs. When the horrors invade, it's gonna make all the previous wars combined look like a bar fight.
Hopefully, space will be our one true safe haven. Only problem is, the horrors will have corrupt mages on thier side who may find ways to transport horrors safely into space and keep the mana warp at bay. After all, who knows what magic breakthroughs will have happened by then as well.
Finally, from a writing perspective. The horrors are not just the gang on the street corner type of NPC. They are the embodiement of armageddon. Thier purpose in life is to cause widespread mayhem and destruction. They will be the source of oppression for a couple thousand years while the smart humans huddle in safe havens. That is thier purpose. They are not in the story line to be an easily stopped NPC or an enemy that can be dispatched. They are the never ending enemy.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 2 2004, 12:23 PM) | ||
Well, since there might have been some uncertainty earlier about their level of unity in fighting against humans, this pretty much nails it then. It would seem metahumanity on the whole is far more united than that. Scheme and fight is not, after all, all we do. Still, if they don't do actual Shadowruns, they can't get any Karma. |
Since when is humanity united. How much unity do you see in Shadowrun... let alone the real world? People don't put aside thier petty squabbling until the enemy is beating down the gates. When the horrors do show thier true faces, untold mayhem and devastation will have already been visited upon us. Most of that devastation will of course been blamed between one group or another to further division in humanity. You can also bet that the horrors will use unwitting shadowrunners to further thier own goals as well.
The horrors are united towards one goal... feed upon humaniti. And they have a definite "survival of the fittest attitude," which means when the horrors do come, you'll be facing the best of the best.
Mark my words, unity will only happen after it's too late. That's the way humans work.
| QUOTE |
| Man. I go to sleep and the whole conversation runs away without me. |
Guess how I feel. I slept for 16 straight hours.
| QUOTE |
| Or how about a dual natured fusion bomb that only attacks (meta)human auras? |
That makes no sense at all, because the main point of a fusion bomb is the 9-digit heat and explosive power in the "millions of tons of TNT" range. You don't need no god damn aura-attacking there. A neutron bomb is a different thing altogther, though.
| QUOTE |
| The thought of Artificer with nanite loaded traps scares the bejezus out of me. |
How many can he trap, really? Some bugger building traps doesn't seem very bad, when metahumans themselves are quite capable of wiping out tens of millions of people by pressing a button.
| QUOTE |
| (and I'm sure they would LOVE you to use them as well as it would further that goal) |
By that logic, they would LOVE us killing them all too, as that would cause further pain. Well, if they're that masochistic, that's good for us.
| QUOTE |
| they just make more at the drop of a hat |
In other words, you believe there are unlimited numbers of them. That's fine. However, most of us do not believe that, so it isn't a very good arguing point. There's no proof of them being unlimited in number. And the "hundreds of thousands in a single area" thing -- that doesn't sound much different than human cities. I live in a "single area" which has 150,000 humans in it, and this is incredibly small in international terms.
| QUOTE |
| For each person we loose, thier dead bodies get used to make constructs. |
How hard is it to kill one of these constructs? Do they have immunity to normal weapons, and how high in general? If an artillery strike or a burst of HMG-fire kills it (20D or more), then no problem. We can make all weapons used to fight the horrors have a switch -- autodestruct when user dies (Biomonitor + low-level transmitter + thermite). I'd like to see them try and beat a modern army unit in melee combat.
| QUOTE |
That makes no sense at all, because the main point of a fusion bomb is the 9-digit heat and explosive power in the "millions of tons of TNT" range. You don't need no god damn aura-attacking there. A neutron bomb is a different thing altogther, though. |
And they could very easily have neutron weaponry as well. They will have people who have turned to thier side, either through marking or plain greed.
| QUOTE |
| How many can he trap, really? Some bugger building traps doesn't seem very bad, when metahumans themselves are quite capable of wiping out tens of millions of people by pressing a button. |
In the horrors sourcebook, there is no stated limit to the number of traps he can create. It say's he makes labyrinths of traps and waits to feed off the pain of those who fall into them.
| QUOTE |
By that logic, they would LOVE us killing them all too, as that would cause further pain. Well, if they're that masochistic, that's good for us. |
No, they could just care less if you wipe out thier constructs. They only feed off of the pain and misery of humans... not each other.
| QUOTE |
In other words, you believe there are unlimited numbers of them. That's fine. However, most of us do not believe that, so it isn't a very good arguing point. There's no proof of them being unlimited in number. And the "hundreds of thousands in a single area" thing -- that doesn't sound much different than human cities. I live in a "single area" which has 150,000 humans in it, and this is incredibly small in international terms. |
Where we only have a sinlge planet (which can only support so much life) to populate, they have a whole metaplane. Verjigorm has spent thousands of years spawning horror after horror. You can bet he will have all the numbers he needs to overwhelm any one force of arms. His allies will have sown major discord into humanity by the time they show up as well. Underestimating your enemy is the first step in your defeat.
| QUOTE |
How hard is it to kill one of these constructs? Do they have immunity to normal weapons, and how high in general? If an artillery strike or a burst of HMG-fire kills it (20D or more), then no problem. We can make all weapons used to fight the horrors have a switch -- autodestruct when user dies (Biomonitor + low-level transmitter + thermite). I'd like to see them try and beat a modern army unit in melee combat. |
Constructs usually aren't difficult to kill. I doubt most would have immunity to normal weapons. Most horrors probably would have immunity. Once again you underestimate your enemy as the horrors will have the same technology. Your artillery will be subject to counter fire batteries. Your people will have to contend with firing at the 3,000 Gnashers coming up the hill to engage in melee or the troop of horror marked firing at thier position with thier own HMG's. They don't care if your weapons are bobby trapped as they will be making thier own. It also depends on how well your people can aim after being inflicted with disease and/or radiation poisoning.
On this neutron bomb thing. Aren't those just a variation on the standard fission weapon?
| QUOTE (Sahandrian) |
| On this neutron bomb thing. Aren't those just a variation on the standard fission weapon? |
Yes. Very little blast and creates a huge wave a nuetrons.
i remember looking forward to my saturday shadowrun sessions to get away from my nuclear physics classes. if i had known i would need to put them both together in the future, i would have stayed in school.
I'd like to make a request. Could the pro-horror people please start sticking to canon, and actually using sourcebooks for their arguments? I see a lot of "Maybe a dragon has a device that can decrease TNs by 20" and "Maybe Horrors can corrupt bacteria" but nothing along the lines of "According to the Dragons Sourcebook page 15 Dragons can reduce TNs" (Note: I have Earthdawn Dragons and it says no such thing) or "There's the horror power 'Corrupt Bacterium.'"
Let's see some canon here. If you want to claim there's 10,000 horrors for every human show us the sourcebook that says you should have 10,000 horrors for each PC in this campaign. If you want to claim the Horrors advance in skills between scourges point to the page on the Horrors source book that says they will advance between scourges. Please, quit making this stuff up and stick to the canon here.
Let's see some canon here. If you want to claim there's 10,000 horrors for every human show us the sourcebook that says you should have 10,000 horrors for each PC in this campaign. If you want to claim the Horrors advance in skills between scourges point to the page on the Horrors source book that says they will advance between scourges. Please, quit making this stuff up and stick to the canon here.
It was me that said ther could be 10,000 horrors per person on the earth I wasnt saying I knew there was that many just that there could be. Of course this number could be very wrong perhaps its 10,000 people per horror. Some things we just dont know.
My belief in the fact that we will have a very tuff fight one which I think we will survive just not win isnt based on a pro horror slant tho. I have a much greater belief in humanities nature to screw over ourselves. I think the ability to corrupt humanity is the horrors bigest assest and once you have the same tech levels on both sides of a war these things cancel out.
I cant give you rules for this in source books, but think about it if all the elves of the Tir said to the shadowrun world. Theres some horrors coming and we have to fight them heres what the world has to do. Everyone outside the Tir would ignore them and claim them insane. Its not till the horrors start coming will people do anything and by then it could be too late.
My belief in the fact that we will have a very tuff fight one which I think we will survive just not win isnt based on a pro horror slant tho. I have a much greater belief in humanities nature to screw over ourselves. I think the ability to corrupt humanity is the horrors bigest assest and once you have the same tech levels on both sides of a war these things cancel out.
I cant give you rules for this in source books, but think about it if all the elves of the Tir said to the shadowrun world. Theres some horrors coming and we have to fight them heres what the world has to do. Everyone outside the Tir would ignore them and claim them insane. Its not till the horrors start coming will people do anything and by then it could be too late.
as far as canon goes, what do you want from canon? i mean i can cite all kind of references to the ability of horrors to corrupt and or genetically alter name-givers up to and including dragons, but it is all from earthdawn. the shadowrun universe has been IMHO blatantly negligent as far as horrors go. they have tie ins all over the place that suggest the horrors will be here, but nothing that shows the gm's how to deal with it.
so do you want only SR canon, which is all that matters since we are playing and discussing SR? if so then here's your answer:
there is none.
if you want canon from earthdawn, make sure that you realize everything in it is from a different game system and has to be modified and adapted to be useful in SR.
so, if you can be more specific of what you want cited form earthdawn canon, then i can try and accommodate you as there is very little i don't have for that system.
so do you want only SR canon, which is all that matters since we are playing and discussing SR? if so then here's your answer:
there is none.
if you want canon from earthdawn, make sure that you realize everything in it is from a different game system and has to be modified and adapted to be useful in SR.
so, if you can be more specific of what you want cited form earthdawn canon, then i can try and accommodate you as there is very little i don't have for that system.
| QUOTE (northern lights) |
| as far as canon goes, what do you want from canon? i mean i can cite all kind of references to the ability of horrors to corrupt and or genetically alter name-givers up to and including dragons, but it is all from earthdawn. the shadowrun universe has been IMHO blatantly negligent as far as horrors go. they have tie ins all over the place that suggest the horrors will be here, but nothing that shows the gm's how to deal with it. so do you want only SR canon, which is all that matters since we are playing and discussing SR? if so then here's your answer: there is none. if you want canon from earthdawn, make sure that you realize everything in it is from a different game system and has to be modified and adapted to be useful in SR. so, if you can be more specific of what you want cited form earthdawn canon, then i can try and accommodate you as there is very little i don't have for that system. |
Nothern is right. The only real stuff available about horrors in SR is going to be Mr. Darke's entry in Threats. Everything else is going to be in Earthdawn.
As for corrupted bacteria, in the Horrors sourcebook, the Dread Iota is an intelligent bacterial colony that inflicts a wasting disease to anyone who consumes it.
I believe it's also the Horrors sourcebook that cites Verjigorm has taken captives and purposefully corrupted (i.e. redesigned) for his own purposes... that includes a few dragons.
And for the record, I am not pro-Horror... I just know better to think humaniti can win an open war against them.
Man, you go to sleep for a few hours and AE and Reaver have woken-up before you.
I could believe that horrors could have agents working on earth to make bombs, but the discussion about high technology was about wether or not the horrors would have technology in advance of our own or wether artificer would be able to just turn all of our technology against us (create huge trapped UV hosts on the Matrix ETC). Personally I think artificer would create trapped labyrinth UV hosts, but that's only because it's cool. I doubt they would have technology in advance of our own as the horrors a) probably don't have the skills and b) may not even have access to the right set of physical laws. Who knows what the horror planes are like? AFAIK there are planes where the laws of physics are distorted. They could bring spanking new technology across that just explode or cease functioning in our world.
As for the horrors improving: I have no troubble believeing that the best horrors survive. Even before Nightwing was created, however, horrors fought "endless battles". What's to say that battles they have had in the last 10000 years on the metaplanes have had any significant impact compared to the "endless battles" they had before?
I personally would take-out the 3000 gnashers using drone-mounted railguns, missiles, HMGs, howitzers, and possibly even orbital railgun strikes in prefference to melee. Even by modern (in SR) railgun standards they can be mounted on any vehicle that can mount a hardpoint and can take the weight, there are many drones and bikes that fit in that category. I think we can also expect it to be significantly harder to mark people due to genetic engineering, shielding metamagics, everyone being an adept, ETC.
I could believe that horrors could have agents working on earth to make bombs, but the discussion about high technology was about wether or not the horrors would have technology in advance of our own or wether artificer would be able to just turn all of our technology against us (create huge trapped UV hosts on the Matrix ETC). Personally I think artificer would create trapped labyrinth UV hosts, but that's only because it's cool. I doubt they would have technology in advance of our own as the horrors a) probably don't have the skills and b) may not even have access to the right set of physical laws. Who knows what the horror planes are like? AFAIK there are planes where the laws of physics are distorted. They could bring spanking new technology across that just explode or cease functioning in our world.
As for the horrors improving: I have no troubble believeing that the best horrors survive. Even before Nightwing was created, however, horrors fought "endless battles". What's to say that battles they have had in the last 10000 years on the metaplanes have had any significant impact compared to the "endless battles" they had before?
I personally would take-out the 3000 gnashers using drone-mounted railguns, missiles, HMGs, howitzers, and possibly even orbital railgun strikes in prefference to melee. Even by modern (in SR) railgun standards they can be mounted on any vehicle that can mount a hardpoint and can take the weight, there are many drones and bikes that fit in that category. I think we can also expect it to be significantly harder to mark people due to genetic engineering, shielding metamagics, everyone being an adept, ETC.
| QUOTE |
Man, you go to sleep for a few hours and AE and Reaver have woken-up before you. |
LOL. I have to get up at 3:30 in the morning to get to work.
| QUOTE |
I could believe that horrors could have agents working on earth to make bombs, but the discussion about high technology was about wether or not the horrors would have technology in advance of our own or wether artificer would be able to just turn all of our technology against us (create huge trapped UV hosts on the Matrix ETC). Personally I think artificer would create trapped labyrinth UV hosts, but that's only because it's cool. I doubt they would have technology in advance of our own as the horrors a) probably don't have the skills and b) may not even have access to the right set of physical laws. Who knows what the horror planes are like? AFAIK there are planes where the laws of physics are distorted. They could bring spanking new technology across that just explode or cease functioning in our world. |
Who's to say for sure, but then that's part of the point. The Horrors are a complete unknown to 99% of the planets population. On the flip side, the horrors know humaniti quite well. With no knowledge to go on, you've already lost half the battle.
Also, I can't say for sure that Artificer would be able to do, but considering it's affinity for machines it is a good bet there are many things he could do. I wouldn't put anything past him. With the down time between cycles, who knows what powers he has developed.
| QUOTE |
As for the horrors improving: I have no troubble believeing that the best horrors survive. Even before Nightwing was created, however, horrors fought "endless battles". What's to say that battles they have had in the last 10000 years on the metaplanes have had any significant impact compared to the "endless battles" they had before? |
That many years has only done nothing but allowed them to hone thier skills. Who knows if they have prey on other worlds as well. The only thing I know of thier metaplane is what I've read from the sourcebook and Harlequin's Back adventure.
| QUOTE |
I personally would take-out the 3000 gnashers using drone-mounted railguns, missiles, HMGs, howitzers, and possibly even orbital railgun strikes in prefference to melee. Even by modern (in SR) railgun standards they can be mounted on any vehicle that can mount a hardpoint and can take the weight, there are many drones and bikes that fit in that category. I think we can also expect it to be significantly harder to mark people due to genetic engineering, shielding metamagics, everyone being an adept, ETC. |
And in the battle to come, you could very well find your dones dropped by thier own railguns, artillery and rockets. Horrors are not stupid. They aren't going to just engage in melee. They will have marked and allies as troops as well. Not to mention constructs with weapons built into thier bodies.
Genetic engineering probably won't help with marking and shielding was available during the last scourge and it didn't help. Everyone was an adept and that also didn't help. Actually, being magical in some ways makes you easier to mark, especially if you are casting raw magic at the time the horror decides to mark you.
Here's the real kicker. When the invasion comes, the world will already be in a very sorry state. The horrors will have already been working behind the scenes to sow discord and strife. The SR world is already in the state for it now. They will set corps and nations against each other, release plagues and increase the toxicity of the planet. Humans will gladly set at each others throats because it's what they are best at, causing corp and national wars. The worlds population will have already been severly impacted by the time everyone see's the horrors themselves. Factories and production sites will have been destroyed or turned impotent due to lack of shipments of material. Weapons, ammo and parts will become scarce due to lack of production... making all your high tech gear impotent. Medical supplies will become scarce, allowing disease and death to climb among the wounded and malnourished. The marked will compromise defenses and turn thier brothers and sisters over to the horrors. Allies to the horrors will help destroy havens and build weapons for the horrors army. The land will be ravaged by hordes of horrors and constructs, leaving behind scarred wastelands. Oppression and evil will cover the earth for a couple thousand of years. It will be as it was destined to be becuase it is an inevitable part of the cycle.
Is it just me, or is this debating starting to sounding a bit too much like those "Let's just to hop over to Asgard, kill Thor, and take his hammer? After all, there are stats for him right here" debates that used to inevitable turn up in just about every junior high/middle school AD&D group back in the 80's?
This debate on stoppable vs. unstoppable is pretty much going in circles and I doubt if will ever be satisfactorily resolved.
In my opinion the major horrors are forces that are virtually unstoppable by conventional means. Just adding more force, skills, power, or abilities can never hold up to the munchkin/rules lawyer factor that inevitably gets thrown around by players who think they should have the ability and right to kill anything that may have stats. Sure, we can speculate until the cows come home about some bigger, badder weapon or invention or tactic in the far off future, but that does not mean that humanity should be given a by on the threats the scourge is supposed to represent.
And at the same time saying "No, sorry, the Horrors and do anything they want and will survive anything thrown at them" is also pretty arbitrary. At this point, without decent SR cannon rules, if I were looking to play a game incorporating horrors and their ilk into SR I would probably dust off my copy of "Primal Order" and define them as demi-gods (hmmm, not that's an idea for a game…).
For those unfamiliar with the Wizards of the Coast 1992 release, I submit a copy of this review I found on Amazon.com. Unfortunately it is not longer in print but it may be possible to find a used copy somewhere.
This debate on stoppable vs. unstoppable is pretty much going in circles and I doubt if will ever be satisfactorily resolved.
In my opinion the major horrors are forces that are virtually unstoppable by conventional means. Just adding more force, skills, power, or abilities can never hold up to the munchkin/rules lawyer factor that inevitably gets thrown around by players who think they should have the ability and right to kill anything that may have stats. Sure, we can speculate until the cows come home about some bigger, badder weapon or invention or tactic in the far off future, but that does not mean that humanity should be given a by on the threats the scourge is supposed to represent.
And at the same time saying "No, sorry, the Horrors and do anything they want and will survive anything thrown at them" is also pretty arbitrary. At this point, without decent SR cannon rules, if I were looking to play a game incorporating horrors and their ilk into SR I would probably dust off my copy of "Primal Order" and define them as demi-gods (hmmm, not that's an idea for a game…).
For those unfamiliar with the Wizards of the Coast 1992 release, I submit a copy of this review I found on Amazon.com. Unfortunately it is not longer in print but it may be possible to find a used copy somewhere.
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| The Primal Order, by Peter Adkison, was the first product from gaming company Wizards of the Coast, now best-known for their collectible card game "Magic: The Gathering"; at that time, WotC was a just-starting roleplaying game company. The Primal Order was designed to eliminate two major flaws in the then-current treatment of deities in roleplaying games; either said deities were treated as all-powerful beings (leading to a great deal of difficulty if two different gods wanted different things, AND eliminating the high-heroic possibility of direct conflict between gods and mortals, cf. Conan, Greek and Norse myth, etc.), or they were basically ordinary characters with really really really high statistics (making it hard to differentiate between a god and a buff mortal). The Primal Order changed this by introducing Primal Energy, a form of power usable ONLY by the gods and giving them certain advantages. The mechanics of The Primal Order ("TPO") are simple, direct, and efficient, the powers involved well-thought out, and other sections, dealing with godly politics, plane/dimension interactions, and even PC deities, are all well-written and interesting, with few flaws in either presentation or consistency -- a rarity in RPG publishing. An additional plus to TPO is that it was designed as a "capsystem" -- a roleplaying supplement that works with ANY ESTABLISHED RPG SYSTEM. This means that to use TPO you do NOT have to give up your old system, or convert your old stuff to TPO's mechanics. TPO gives conversion rules in the back of the book for roughly 20 different game systems, all very simple and easily used. (earlier editions of the book contain conversions for Palladium and AD&D; later ones had those removed at the request/demand of the respective copyright holders). Overall, a useful and well-written addition to any RPGers' library. |
| QUOTE (northern lights) |
| as far as canon goes, what do you want from canon? i mean i can cite all kind of references to the ability of horrors to corrupt and or genetically alter name-givers up to and including dragons, but it is all from earthdawn. the shadowrun universe has been IMHO blatantly negligent as far as horrors go. they have tie ins all over the place that suggest the horrors will be here, but nothing that shows the gm's how to deal with it. so do you want only SR canon, which is all that matters since we are playing and discussing SR? if so then here's your answer: there is none. if you want canon from earthdawn, make sure that you realize everything in it is from a different game system and has to be modified and adapted to be useful in SR. so, if you can be more specific of what you want cited form earthdawn canon, then i can try and accommodate you as there is very little i don't have for that system. |
What I want is for you to do exactly that, quote all sorts of canon to support your statements. If you claim the horrors can do something, back up that claim. Obviously some things in Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different from a game mechanics point of view, such as the length of turns, but those can be converted easily enough.
For instance, Shadowrun has no information on how horror marking works. However we can make some pretty obvious deductions, and have, about how it works in the Shadowrun universe, requires LOS and certain conditions that vary according to the horror, affects the astral signature, and gives the horror touch range to the person no matter where they are. Earthdawn Canon adapted to Shadowrun. It's so simple. Yes, there are a few odd comparisons but it makes a lot more sense than seeing 10 pages of horror people saying things like "Maybe some unknown horror has the power to turn cyberware into grapefruit, we just don't know."
Also let's hear no more of this "Humans are badly outnumbered" nonsense. If the real canon says it could be anywhere from 10,000:1 Humans on top to the reverse then that claim is absurd. I reccomend we stick to 1:1 as a nice even ratio until some real proof shows up otherwise, but that's just my idea.
If you just want to play the maybe game:
Maybe there's a genetic code that makes you immune to horror powers, and it will be a common genetech by the time they get here. We just don't know.
Maybe all horrors have an extreme allergy to dikote. We just don't know.
Maybe even the slightest piece of cyberware in your body not only makes you immune to a horror, but also causes all horrors within LOS of you to suffer a reversal of their power, for instance if they try to corrupt anyone's karma the horror's karma is corrupted. We just don't know.
Maybe the Horrors have actually wiped themselves out in their "Endless Battles" on the Horror Metaplane and there will only be two or three of them left by the time the scourge begins. We just don't know.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) | ||
What I want is for you to do exactly that, quote all sorts of canon to support your statements. If you claim the horrors can do something, back up that claim. Obviously some things in Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different from a game mechanics point of view, such as the length of turns, but those can be converted easily enough. For instance, Shadowrun has no information on how horror marking works. However we can make some pretty obvious deductions, and have, about how it works in the Shadowrun universe, requires LOS and certain conditions that vary according to the horror, affects the astral signature, and gives the horror touch range to the person no matter where they are. Earthdawn Canon adapted to Shadowrun. It's so simple. Yes, there are a few odd comparisons but it makes a lot more sense than seeing 10 pages of horror people saying things like "Maybe some unknown horror has the power to turn cyberware into grapefruit, we just don't know." Also let's hear no more of this "Humans are badly outnumbered" nonsense. If the real canon says it could be anywhere from 10,000:1 Humans on top to the reverse then that claim is absurd. I reccomend we stick to 1:1 as a nice even ratio until some real proof shows up otherwise, but that's just my idea. If you just want to play the maybe game: Maybe there's a genetic code that makes you immune to horror powers, and it will be a common genetech by the time they get here. We just don't know. Maybe all horrors have an extreme allergy to dikote. We just don't know. Maybe even the slightest piece of cyberware in your body not only makes you immune to a horror, but also causes all horrors within LOS of you to suffer a reversal of their power, for instance if they try to corrupt anyone's karma the horror's karma is corrupted. We just don't know. Maybe the Horrors have actually wiped themselves out in their "Endless Battles" on the Horror Metaplane and there will only be two or three of them left by the time the scourge begins. We just don't know. |
Actually, we have quoted cannon sources for you.
We've told you how horror marking works. I even quoted you the paragraph of the general description of horror marking right out of the horrors book. There is NO SR cannon material on it because they havn't written it. Hence one of the reasons this whole discussion has been theoretical.
We know that there are a crap load of horrors waiting as we speak, as they have been witnessed in Harlequin's Back and in the books. How many? All I can say is a butt load. When you stand at the edge of that gray chasm and see nothing but a black horde climbing over itself for as far as the eye can see... both directions, chances are... that's an awful lot. And Verjigorm churns out more of them every day.
Once again, this discussion started theoretical and is going to remain so unless the makers of SR change things. Arguing about things being/not being canon doesn't fit into the discussion. I'm giving you the info I have at my fingertips from Earthdawn books and giving you the devil's advocate point of view. I've read the horrors book from front to back and I understand thier psychology. Work behinds the scenes and subvert. That's going to work very well on humanity... it always does. You're right that there are many things about horrors that we don't know, and that's why you should never underestimate your enemy.
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| Once again, this discussion started theoretical and is going to remain so unless the makers of SR change things. Arguing about things being/not being canon doesn't fit into the discussion. I'm giving you the info I have at my fingertips from Earthdawn books and giving you the devil's advocate point of view. I've read the horrors book from front to back and I understand thier psychology. Work behinds the scenes and subvert. That's going to work very well on humanity... it always does. You're right that there are many things about horrors that we don't know, and that's why you should never underestimate your enemy. |
this is exactly where i stand as well. until mike or whomever either decides to publish something or cans it altogether we can only guess and speculate. that's my biggest problem with it all.
likewise, i have dealt with 4th world material very exclusively and will provide you canon examples for specific questions when such answers exist, but aside from that, i'll play assistant devil's advocate, only cause someone beat me.
While not the greatest movie ever made, I think Starship Troopers draws a good picture of what it's going to be like during the next Scourge. While governments will doubtlessly build modern equivalences of kaers and fallout shelters to hide the "cream" of society, the vast majority of the world is going to have to deal with the horrors, and I doubt if we're just going to sit around and let them slaughter us. If those damn immortals would get off their collective asses and tell people about it before it's too late, we could at least begin making preparations for it. If they only wait until a couple of years before the horrors start pouring through, or never do, well... they had best pray no one ever finds out about them. Which I doubt considering the rumors floating around the Matrix already.
At least Dunkelzahn was trying to use greed and competition to get us ready.
At least Dunkelzahn was trying to use greed and competition to get us ready.
| QUOTE (Snake Oil) |
| While not the greatest movie ever made, I think Starship Troopers draws a good picture of what it's going to be like during the next Scourge. While governments will doubtlessly build modern equivalences of kaers and fallout shelters to hide the "cream" of society, the vast majority of the world is going to have to deal with the horrors, and I doubt if we're just going to sit around and let them slaughter us. If those damn immortals would get off their collective asses and tell people about it before it's too late, we could at least begin making preparations for it. If they only wait until a couple of years before the horrors start pouring through, or never do, well... they had best pray no one ever finds out about them. Which I doubt considering the rumors floating around the Matrix already. At least Dunkelzahn was trying to use greed and competition to get us ready. |
I agree that Starship Troopers and maybe even Final Fantasy The Movie at least give an idea of what it will be like. Chances are, take either of those two movies and make it even darker.
I doubt the immortals will let the cat out of the bag. You'll end up with mass panic and people clambering to be in a kaer. They don't want that and we all know damn well that's what would happen. Better to save the few you can by keeping quiet. Rumors in the Matrix will be put down as fanciful hoaxes by people doing too many BTL's because people would rather believe such beings don't exist... just as much as they would like to believe they can be easily defeated.
There would be some mass panic and the like. But if they tell of what happened during the Fourth Age now, with thousands of years of time to adjust and prepare for it, it wouldn't be all that bad.
The great dragons are already known to be as close to immortal as most people can comprehend. It's obvious that they lived in a time before and that they weren't just spontaneously created December 24th, 2011. While the immortal elves might be able to get away with not telling, the dragons certainly won't, else they're really going to have to worry about down cycle hunting during the Seventh World unless this next Scourge someone manages to wipe out all traces of the technology we'll have achieved by then, especially in the communications field.
The great dragons are already known to be as close to immortal as most people can comprehend. It's obvious that they lived in a time before and that they weren't just spontaneously created December 24th, 2011. While the immortal elves might be able to get away with not telling, the dragons certainly won't, else they're really going to have to worry about down cycle hunting during the Seventh World unless this next Scourge someone manages to wipe out all traces of the technology we'll have achieved by then, especially in the communications field.
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