Full Version: Can we beatt he Horrors?
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| QUOTE (Snake Oil) |
| There would be some mass panic and the like. But if they tell of what happened during the Fourth Age now, with thousands of years of time to adjust and prepare for it, it wouldn't be all that bad. The great dragons are already known to be as close to immortal as most people can comprehend. It's obvious that they lived in a time before and that they weren't just spontaneously created December 24th, 2011. While the immortal elves might be able to get away with not telling, the dragons certainly won't, else they're really going to have to worry about down cycle hunting during the Seventh World unless this next Scourge someone manages to wipe out all traces of the technology we'll have achieved by then, especially in the communications field. |
It would be all that bad. The person is smart; but people are dumb, panicky animals. If I remember correctly, it happened in the fourth age and some kaers ended up letting in marked people because of it. Parlainth is a prime example of why you don't let this information out as public knowledge.
The difficulty of a horror to mark someone is based on the person's spell defense, and the closest canon equivalent of that is willpower under 3rd ed. Correct? Now I accept that shielding may not work, but as genetically separate species such as dwarves, gnomes, albino people, and true drakes (which metahumans are genetically compatible with, evidence by existence of bred drakes) have higher willpower stats, it would be possible to genetically engineer for a good willpower.
I feel that genetic engineering will be one of our best weapons. We can genetically engineer away the susceptibility to wasting diseases, genetically engineer people into Adepts, genetically engineer people so that they die if they do become horror marked. The genetic engineering wildcard is one that even artificer and the like would have trouble dealing with as these people are not like the humans they have fought previously.
As for the unknowns: I would not imagine the IEs and Dragons would keep this quiet right-up to the point that the gap is closed. It's a safe bet that Lofwyr, and all of the other dragons, will have agents working around the clock on various projects that could help against the horrors. The Draco Foundation seems to hold fighting horrors as a primary goal (with the bounties for blood-magic practitioners ETC). Just because the general populace don't know about them dosen't mean the people who matter don't or aren't conducting their own research.
I feel that genetic engineering will be one of our best weapons. We can genetically engineer away the susceptibility to wasting diseases, genetically engineer people into Adepts, genetically engineer people so that they die if they do become horror marked. The genetic engineering wildcard is one that even artificer and the like would have trouble dealing with as these people are not like the humans they have fought previously.
As for the unknowns: I would not imagine the IEs and Dragons would keep this quiet right-up to the point that the gap is closed. It's a safe bet that Lofwyr, and all of the other dragons, will have agents working around the clock on various projects that could help against the horrors. The Draco Foundation seems to hold fighting horrors as a primary goal (with the bounties for blood-magic practitioners ETC). Just because the general populace don't know about them dosen't mean the people who matter don't or aren't conducting their own research.
I don't see people running through the streets on a regular basis, screaming about the Apocalypse. Even firm believers in it.
It's going to be much, much worse if no one knows about it until the last minute. They're not going to be able to build thousands of kaers the world over without people learning of it, especially if the media continues becoming more and more invasive as the years roll by. If they get it out and over with now, it's going to be much more tame then. Especially if we're given the time to learn about our enemy, find out what makes them tick, and begin devising ways of defeating them. Panic will still be rampant, of course, but at least those who don't get into the kaers will likely even stay and willingly join militaries to defeat the Horrors.
If large mobs would rather panic blindly, they deserve to be the cannon fodder that they're going to be. But if we had the time and opportunity to not only study but prepare for the Scourge, at least we'd be on equal footing with the Horrors when they come through. For all we know, that's the only reason they really managed to do what they did during the last Scourge -- they were fully prepared and ready, while the majority of metahumanity (especially when the population and communication channels were minimal) were taken all but by surprise.
It's going to be much, much worse if no one knows about it until the last minute. They're not going to be able to build thousands of kaers the world over without people learning of it, especially if the media continues becoming more and more invasive as the years roll by. If they get it out and over with now, it's going to be much more tame then. Especially if we're given the time to learn about our enemy, find out what makes them tick, and begin devising ways of defeating them. Panic will still be rampant, of course, but at least those who don't get into the kaers will likely even stay and willingly join militaries to defeat the Horrors.
If large mobs would rather panic blindly, they deserve to be the cannon fodder that they're going to be. But if we had the time and opportunity to not only study but prepare for the Scourge, at least we'd be on equal footing with the Horrors when they come through. For all we know, that's the only reason they really managed to do what they did during the last Scourge -- they were fully prepared and ready, while the majority of metahumanity (especially when the population and communication channels were minimal) were taken all but by surprise.
| QUOTE (Snake Oil) |
| I don't see people running through the streets on a regular basis, screaming about the Apocalypse. Even firm believers in it. It's going to be much, much worse if no one knows about it until the last minute. They're not going to be able to build thousands of kaers the world over without people learning of it, especially if the media continues becoming more and more invasive as the years roll by. If they get it out and over with now, it's going to be much more tame then. Especially if we're given the time to learn about our enemy, find out what makes them tick, and begin devising ways of defeating them. Panic will still be rampant, of course, but at least those who don't get into the kaers will likely even stay and willingly join militaries to defeat the Horrors. If large mobs would rather panic blindly, they deserve to be the cannon fodder that they're going to be. But if we had the time and opportunity to not only study but prepare for the Scourge, at least we'd be on equal footing with the Horrors when they come through. For all we know, that's the only reason they really managed to do what they did during the last Scourge -- they were fully prepared and ready, while the majority of metahumanity (especially when the population and communication channels were minimal) were taken all but by surprise. |
Long before the last scourge, a document called the Book of Harrow was discovered. It was this document (no one knows who or what wrote it) that allowed the people of the 4th age to understand that the horrors existed and that the scourge would come. They were prepared and built kaers and citadels thanks to that information. You also need to know that the Horrors are like the primordial evil, like a Cthulhu mythos for the SR world. Even learning about them can be a risk to one's sanity. Speaking thier name aloud is said to draw thier attention. And any 4th world information may have limited usefulness. Who knows what powers they have developed as they waited for thier time.
As a leader of people, you have to ask yourself what is more important. Save those you know you can save with near certainty, or risk loosing it all telling everyone and most likely causing mass panic. Most leaders always opt for the safer bet. You notice in Big D's will, even he didn't make any mention of the horrors when he could have.
In earthdawn a key component of magical power is 'naming'. This is why sentient creatures are called namegivers, named horrors are the worst horrors, named magical items are the most powerfull by far.
There was a big tie in between names, recognition, and power. So it is possible that our huge numbers and communications infrastructure could work against us to some extent. More horrors will get names, as the media quickly generates lables, and more people will know those names. Names will not be forgotten so easily because we will store copies of them all over the place. This in itself could make the horrors worse.
Simultaneously this could help namegiver heros grow in power.
There was a big tie in between names, recognition, and power. So it is possible that our huge numbers and communications infrastructure could work against us to some extent. More horrors will get names, as the media quickly generates lables, and more people will know those names. Names will not be forgotten so easily because we will store copies of them all over the place. This in itself could make the horrors worse.
Simultaneously this could help namegiver heros grow in power.
I doubt many more Horrors will get names, unless names for entire groups of Horrors count. They'd have to be mean enough to be individually identifiable and distinctive enough to be singled out.
Hmm... could we name every single Horror Bob?
~J
Hmm... could we name every single Horror Bob?
~J
Now, there is a difference between names and Names... 
Another nasty thing - if I remember right, the great sage who first translated the Books of Harrow (Elinar Messias, perhaps? Can't remember) went totally fragging mad, tore out his eyes and stuff, and later died, just from reading the books. Knowledge of the Horrors killed him just as dead as the Horrors themselves would have. I got the impression he was one of those Intelligence-10 Willpower-10 ubersages, but I can't swear to any of this.
Messias wasn't the only one. There are other stories of similar events; people exposed to the *stories* of the Horrors are often pretty screwed up by it. The Horrors sourcebook is presented as a document written by a group of hardcore Horror hunters trying to educate others as to the risks involved in fighting the Horrors, with the warning right in the front that reading the book might be enough to mark you. I seem to recall there are more examples...
I don't have canon for this 'cause I don't have the Horrors books at work, maybe someone can back me up... But from what I've read I'm sure that, for the most part, the big Horrors aren't intended to be Enemies to Fight - they're a Plot Point.
edit - punctuation ownz me.
Another nasty thing - if I remember right, the great sage who first translated the Books of Harrow (Elinar Messias, perhaps? Can't remember) went totally fragging mad, tore out his eyes and stuff, and later died, just from reading the books. Knowledge of the Horrors killed him just as dead as the Horrors themselves would have. I got the impression he was one of those Intelligence-10 Willpower-10 ubersages, but I can't swear to any of this.
Messias wasn't the only one. There are other stories of similar events; people exposed to the *stories* of the Horrors are often pretty screwed up by it. The Horrors sourcebook is presented as a document written by a group of hardcore Horror hunters trying to educate others as to the risks involved in fighting the Horrors, with the warning right in the front that reading the book might be enough to mark you. I seem to recall there are more examples...
I don't have canon for this 'cause I don't have the Horrors books at work, maybe someone can back me up... But from what I've read I'm sure that, for the most part, the big Horrors aren't intended to be Enemies to Fight - they're a Plot Point.
edit - punctuation ownz me.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I doubt many more Horrors will get names, unless names for entire groups of Horrors count. They'd have to be mean enough to be individually identifiable and distinctive enough to be singled out. Hmm... could we name every single Horror Bob? ~J |
Horrors could very easily get named. Humans are highly predictable at clasifying and naming everything. They name everything around them. Rev brings up a very interesting point and it makes perfect sense as to a good reason as to not telling everyone. The media alone would make things worse.
| QUOTE (Req) |
| Now, there is a difference between names and Names... Another nasty thing - if I remember right, the great sage who first translated the Books of Harrow (Elinar Messias, perhaps? Can't remember) went totally fragging mad, tore out his eyes and stuff, and later died, just from reading the books. Knowledge of the Horrors killed him just as dead as the Horrors themselves would have. I got the impression he was one of those Intelligence-10 Willpower-10 ubersages, but I can't swear to any of this. Messias wasn't the only one. There are other stories of similar events; people exposed to the *stories* of the Horrors are often pretty screwed up by it. The Horrors sourcebook is presented as a document written by a group of hardcore Horror hunters trying to educate others as to the risks involved in fighting the Horrors, with the warning right in the front that reading the book might be enough to mark you. I seem to recall there are more examples... I don't have canon for this 'cause I don't have the Horrors books at work, maybe someone can back me up... But from what I've read I'm sure that, for the most part, the big Horrors aren't intended to be Enemies to Fight - they're a Plot Point. edit - punctuation ownz me. |
I don't have mine here at work either, but your summary is pretty much right on target.
| QUOTE (Reaver) | ||||
Actually, we have quoted cannon sources for you. We've told you how horror marking works. I even quoted you the paragraph of the general description of horror marking right out of the horrors book. There is NO SR cannon material on it because they havn't written it. Hence one of the reasons this whole discussion has been theoretical. We know that there are a crap load of horrors waiting as we speak, as they have been witnessed in Harlequin's Back and in the books. How many? All I can say is a butt load. When you stand at the edge of that gray chasm and see nothing but a black horde climbing over itself for as far as the eye can see... both directions, chances are... that's an awful lot. And Verjigorm churns out more of them every day. Once again, this discussion started theoretical and is going to remain so unless the makers of SR change things. Arguing about things being/not being canon doesn't fit into the discussion. I'm giving you the info I have at my fingertips from Earthdawn books and giving you the devil's advocate point of view. I've read the horrors book from front to back and I understand thier psychology. Work behinds the scenes and subvert. That's going to work very well on humanity... it always does. You're right that there are many things about horrors that we don't know, and that's why you should never underestimate your enemy.  |
Yet somehow we've wound up with pro-horror people claiming nukes in the 4th age, when, on inspection, there weren't any. We've wound up with claims of 10,000 horrors for every human when, on inspection, it's equally likely that there's 10,000 humans for every horror. I understand that this is all theoretical. I'd just like to stick with canon instead of whatever house-rules the pro-horror people would like to make up as they go.
Yes, you've described how a horror mark works. And we've gotten the descriptions of exactly three horrors (one of them named). But look at how many horror-claims have turned out to be smoke and mirrors when somebody asked for the page number that power came from?
The issue of what is and isn't canon is the very heart of this matter. The shadowrunners use Shadowrun canon, they don't suddenly decide to use the characters from Marvel and start posting about how Superman will Beat Verjigorm and Batman will trick Artificer into self-destructing, or claim a houserule where they use a holdout pistol that inflicts 75DN damage and works on astral forms. The Earthdawn players (should) use Earthdawn canon and not decide to suddenly use whatever houserules they like as the basis for their arguments, or suddenly decide they want to claim that the Horrors can use spells like the Characters in Dungeons and Dragons can. This is a silly debate for fun anyway but it becomes completely pointless if you change the rules whenever you feel like it.
Cannon only goes so far.
To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly.
Tell ya what show me canonically how the great ghost dance worked.
Or canon rules about horror "bridges".
Or the earth Quakes in 61.
Maybe that guy coming back from the dead.
Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic.In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10.
Lastly,for the record I am pro-human.
To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly.
Tell ya what show me canonically how the great ghost dance worked.
Or canon rules about horror "bridges".
Or the earth Quakes in 61.
Maybe that guy coming back from the dead.
Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic.In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10.
Lastly,for the record I am pro-human.
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| Cannon only goes so far. To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly. Tell ya what show me canonically how [these things] worked. [..] Maybe that guy coming back from the dead.[...] |
Threats 2, pages 53 and 54.
~J
moonstone, i will state here that a big reason that i have not posted so much canon is that it is pretty much technically useless to SR people. i'll try to be more consistent in posting the book and page number where appropriate, but i have used summaries cause most people would be thinking the stats and terms for such stuff is useless.
to second req, remember also that the names in question are TRUE names. there are canon for the power in both worlds, as in SR you get certain bonuses for knowing the true name of a spirit, etc.
and while we are on the subject, let's look at the mad passions they went mad from the horrors and they are on par with "gods" or something.
it's disturbing in that since i got the impresion from the dragons pdf that they kind of scoffed at the passions, while in voices from the past and tir tairngire, it seems that they are clearly more significant.
anyone's take on this?
to second req, remember also that the names in question are TRUE names. there are canon for the power in both worlds, as in SR you get certain bonuses for knowing the true name of a spirit, etc.
and while we are on the subject, let's look at the mad passions they went mad from the horrors and they are on par with "gods" or something.
it's disturbing in that since i got the impresion from the dragons pdf that they kind of scoffed at the passions, while in voices from the past and tir tairngire, it seems that they are clearly more significant.
anyone's take on this?
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| Cannon only goes so far. To think that things like dragons can't do things that make the great ghost dance look small,is rather silly. Tell ya what show me canonically how the great ghost dance worked. Or canon rules about horror "bridges". Or the earth Quakes in 61. Maybe that guy coming back from the dead. Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic.In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10. Lastly,for the record I am pro-human. |
You vastly overestimate the lack of canon here. Yes, we don't know the exact nature of the Great Ghost dance. On the other hand it's effects are pretty clear, and we know it's rare and difficult enough that only a handful of people on earth can possibly do it (Same with the Wild Hunt for that matter). We also know what will happen to anybody on the recieving end of such forces and what can reasonably survive them.
I know the canon for dragons, at least a goodly portion of it, as well. Earthdawn Dragons page 33 describes how a number of Great Dragons, working together, can reshape the world, levelling mountains and creating deserts. I hate to break the news to you, but that puts all the Great Dragons in Earthdawn about on par with the Roman Empire, which did the exact same thing several times. They can also cast spells without having to learn them first, which basically means they're like any high-initiation mage except they spend less Karma on buying spells. On the other hand we see Great Dragons get beaten by humans too, in the aforementioned Shadows of the Underworld page 47 a team of Four Shadowrunners take on a single Great Eastern Dragon, stun it, and then steal it's eggs. Sure, they needed quite a bit of Karma to pull it off, along with multiple elementals and they devised a specific spell to attack that dragon, but even so four high-end shadowrunners took out a great dragon. Later in the book (page 52) when the Dragon goes crazy and uses every ounce of power it has to destroy the city over it's egg getting smashed Lonestar kills it with multiple HRT teams. This means two things:
1 Great dragon <= 4 High-end Shadowrunners who have surprise. It's also < an unknown number of security teams even when they have no surprise and it's using every power it has at full force. They might have been superior in the 4th age but 6th age man is a much tougher bird.
Notice, I cited some page numbers and the book this came from. That's what I'd like to see from everybody else, even if the rules don't describe every situation (It's shadowrun, the rules are usually vauge) we won't wind up with another 4th age nuke argument if you have some sort of canon to back things up.
| QUOTE |
Yet somehow we've wound up with pro-horror people claiming nukes in the 4th age, when, on inspection, there weren't any. We've wound up with claims of 10,000 horrors for every human when, on inspection, it's equally likely that there's 10,000 humans for every horror. I understand that this is all theoretical. I'd just like to stick with canon instead of whatever house-rules the pro-horror people would like to make up as they go. |
If this is theoretical, then sticking entirely to canon is a moot point. One of the things that needs to be accounted for in this theoretical discussion is... how have the horrors potentialy progressed. It is highly possible that the named horrors that were known of have even bigger and better powers than they did before. I'm not making up rules as I go, but providing you with devil's advocate debate.
| QUOTE |
Yes, you've described how a horror mark works. And we've gotten the descriptions of exactly three horrors (one of them named). But look at how many horror-claims have turned out to be smoke and mirrors when somebody asked for the page number that power came from. |
Not everybody knows Eartdawn material or they may be trying to summarize. Maybe they too are trying to give you devil's advocate point of view. The horros are not supposed to be some easily defeated foe. They are supposed to be THE prime evil that will ALWAYS exist. The are a never ending foe and unquenchable in thier lust for causing pain and misery. When they attack, it will seem like the very gates of hell itself were flung open. The most poerful named horrors are as gods and are not defeatable. Defeat thier plots... perhaps, but not them. PC's should NEVER be going up against such entities. If they do, it's time for new characters.
| QUOTE |
The issue of what is and isn't canon is the very heart of this matter. The shadowrunners use Shadowrun canon, they don't suddenly decide to use the characters from Marvel and start posting about how Superman will Beat Verjigorm and Batman will trick Artificer into self-destructing, or claim a houserule where they use a holdout pistol that inflicts 75DN damage and works on astral forms. The Earthdawn players (should) use Earthdawn canon and not decide to suddenly use whatever houserules they like as the basis for their arguments, or suddenly decide they want to claim that the Horrors can use spells like the Characters in Dungeons and Dragons can. This is a silly debate for fun anyway but it becomes completely pointless if you change the rules whenever you feel like it. |
Once again. We have already established that this is a theoretical debate. Therefore, canon is not at all the heart of the matter. While it is nice to be able to have canon sources quoted to get a better understanding of what they were like in the 4th age... when they come back they won't be the same beasties. They have had thousands of years to change and evolve just as we have. The only difference between them and us... they havn't forgotten.
Unless Wizkids comes up with rules and stats for the horrors (and I don't see that happening any time soon) then our whole debate with this thread has very little canon to go with it. We don't know what potential the horrors have, let alone the potential humanity will have when the invasion comes. So, all we can do is speculate and come up with ideas.
Discussing this topic in terms of reality is kind of pointless, this is just a game.
So let us discuss it as a game:
If Fan Pro/Wiz Kids did release a campaign supplement that covered the begininng of the scrouge, then yes. The horrors would be defeated. Why play in a game, where in the final outcome metahumanity will loose?? Maybe the Horros, upon first enetering our woulrd are weak. Thousands of years with nothing to feed on has depleted their powers.
This would be a great campaign, just before the horrors:
First adventure: The PC's discover the Book of Harrow. Perhaps they were hired by an agent of the horrors that wished to hide the text. The PC's discover the nature of the book and deliver it to someone that can do something about it. Like the Draco foundation or The Cult of the Dragon.
Next, set of adventures: The PC's search for ways to fight the horrors, or delay the crossing.
Interlude: The Crossing. The Horrors come over, weakend by their wait, but still powerful
Next set of adventures: The Horror's are fought. The pc's could be actually campaigning against some of the horrors, or perhaps questing for useful artifacts/knowledge.
Endgame: The horrors are defeated.
In the end, though, Metahumanity would win. The scrouge would be defeated. Why? Becuase we as the PC's are the metahumans.
Now, if it were a game where the PC's were Horrors...Well then of course the puny humans would loose.
Now if you want to play a game that takes place During the scrouge, may I suggest Rifts?
So let us discuss it as a game:
If Fan Pro/Wiz Kids did release a campaign supplement that covered the begininng of the scrouge, then yes. The horrors would be defeated. Why play in a game, where in the final outcome metahumanity will loose?? Maybe the Horros, upon first enetering our woulrd are weak. Thousands of years with nothing to feed on has depleted their powers.
This would be a great campaign, just before the horrors:
First adventure: The PC's discover the Book of Harrow. Perhaps they were hired by an agent of the horrors that wished to hide the text. The PC's discover the nature of the book and deliver it to someone that can do something about it. Like the Draco foundation or The Cult of the Dragon.
Next, set of adventures: The PC's search for ways to fight the horrors, or delay the crossing.
Interlude: The Crossing. The Horrors come over, weakend by their wait, but still powerful
Next set of adventures: The Horror's are fought. The pc's could be actually campaigning against some of the horrors, or perhaps questing for useful artifacts/knowledge.
Endgame: The horrors are defeated.
In the end, though, Metahumanity would win. The scrouge would be defeated. Why? Becuase we as the PC's are the metahumans.
Now, if it were a game where the PC's were Horrors...Well then of course the puny humans would loose.
Now if you want to play a game that takes place During the scrouge, may I suggest Rifts?
| QUOTE (Eldritch) |
| Discussing this topic in terms of reality is kind of pointless, this is just a game. So let us discuss it as a game: If Fan Pro/Wiz Kids did release a campaign supplement that covered the begininng of the scrouge, then yes. The horrors would be defeated. Why play in a game, where in the final outcome metahumanity will loose?? Maybe the Horros, upon first enetering our woulrd are weak. Thousands of years with nothing to feed on has depleted their powers. This would be a great campaign, just before the horrors: First adventure: The PC's discover the Book of Harrow. Perhaps they were hired by an agent of the horrors that wished to hide the text. The PC's discover the nature of the book and deliver it to someone that can do something about it. Like the Draco foundation or The Cult of the Dragon. Next, set of adventures: The PC's search for ways to fight the horrors, or delay the crossing. Interlude: The Crossing. The Horrors come over, weakend by their wait, but still powerful Next set of adventures: The Horror's are fought. The pc's could be actually campaigning against some of the horrors, or perhaps questing for useful artifacts/knowledge. Endgame: The horrors are defeated. In the end, though, Metahumanity would win. The scrouge would be defeated. Why? Becuase we as the PC's are the metahumans. Now, if it were a game where the PC's were Horrors...Well then of course the puny humans would loose. Now if you want to play a game that takes place During the scrouge, may I suggest Rifts? |
The better campaign supplement would be this;
- The scourge happens. Humaniti is completely unprepared because the horrors have been manipulating them behind the scenes and setting group against group. A great number of humans are already dead from plgues and violence. Whole infrasturctures are weakend, making it easy for the horrors to invade.
- Those who decided to fight head on loose to the last man/woman.
- The survivors are divided into two different camps. Those who stayed in protected vaults and those who escaped deep into space (maybe other planets).
- The game would take place way in the future when magic starts to wane and humans struggle to take back control of the planet.
That's a far better gaming idea because it provides endless adventure possibilities and doesn't make humaniti out to be god killers... which they aren't. Nor should any game allow for that, it's far too munchkin.
Yeah, but why fight to take anything back? If the 'cream' of metahumanity has survived(either in space or in kaers), then just wait out the waneing(sp) of magic. The horrors will just go away on their own.
| QUOTE (Eldritch) |
| Yeah, but why fight to take anything back? If the 'cream' of metahumanity has survived(either in space or in kaers), then just wait out the waneing(sp) of magic. The horrors will just go away on their own. |
Maybe it ends up with the same issue as last time. When they thought the horrors should have been gone... they weren't. The mana level did not drop as expected.
I'd think that'd be easy enough to confirm. A quick journey to the metaplanes and check the 'chasm' see that it's far enough eawy and that there are no bridges....
| QUOTE (Eldritch @ Jan 2 2004, 10:31 PM) |
| I'd think that'd be easy enough to confirm. A quick journey to the metaplanes and check the 'chasm' see that it's far enough eawy and that there are no bridges.... |
Ah, but A.) Only a select few people know how to make it to that plane in question, B.) That means leaving the protection of the kaer and possibly allowing a marked mage to return... not the best idea. Hence the reason why they didn't do that during the last scourge.
Okay, point taken
But then you're just playing Earthdawn, with a little tech thrown into the mix.
But then you're just playing Earthdawn, with a little tech thrown into the mix.
| QUOTE (Eldritch) |
| Okay, point taken But then you're just playing Earthdawn, with a little tech thrown into the mix. |
And Shadowrun is just Earthdawn's future.
ok i am forced to again apoligize for getting the cremak blast mixed up. horribly sorry about that but when your reading a 12 page long post talking about 3 different topics it is a bit easy to get things confused. This is why i started THIS thread specifically to discuss the horrors so such mix ups as mine will not occur again
From reading this post i have determined 2 things about the 2 sides of the argument and where they base their ideas and beliefs
1. Pro Humans for the most part have never read anything on the horros and have never played earthdawn. They are basing their assumption on the horrors on what they belive and and speculation
2. Pro horrors for the most part have played earthdawn and have read the horros books have some idea of what the horros are capable of. These people base their assumptions and belifs about the horrors on the books and some of their own ideas.
If any pro humans out their have ever extensively read about the horrors and still think we can win please speak up. I for one am going to buy every horrors book i can.
here are a few other points i would like to make in my own defense...
From reading this post i have determined 2 things about the 2 sides of the argument and where they base their ideas and beliefs
1. Pro Humans for the most part have never read anything on the horros and have never played earthdawn. They are basing their assumption on the horrors on what they belive and and speculation
2. Pro horrors for the most part have played earthdawn and have read the horros books have some idea of what the horros are capable of. These people base their assumptions and belifs about the horrors on the books and some of their own ideas.
If any pro humans out their have ever extensively read about the horrors and still think we can win please speak up. I for one am going to buy every horrors book i can.
here are a few other points i would like to make in my own defense...
| QUOTE |
| What force the dragons could have summoned artificer at depends on what is reasonably possible. If we really want to find-out what the most powerful spirit that dragons could have reasonably summoned (by the SR rules) lets look at the stats. Taking 10 great dragons (this is probably a generous estimate due to the problems of getting them all in the same place during the scourge, or getting them all to work together, or getting them all into a circle) with conjuring skills of around 13 (equal to the willpower stat of a great dragon, some would have more and some less) we have 130 dice. Working on the Shadowrun dice roll probability calculator rolling 130 dice with 500 karma pool for rerolls (that's 31 rerolls) available, the best force they could reasonably conjure would be around 29 before the probabilities drop below 50%, 21 if you want a nearly 100% chance. That's assuming a you want a single success and any more would be bought using excess karma pool (if any). OK: it could have bought up its force a bit using karma, and your guess is as good as mine as to how much karma it managed to accumulate (I'm assuming it can only take it from people free-spirit style rather than develop its own). Also note that the various horror powers probably cost karma to learn. |
| QUOTE |
| I'm still chuckling about the Intelligence of 200! |
ok here is an argument against my previous force predictions for artifacter. This argument is used on the basis that dragons have to follow the same conjuring rules that we do. like making a hermatic circle and buying conjuring materials ect...
| QUOTE |
| Yes,I made claims that dragons had ubberly powerful magic. In canon,they can pull elementals out of nothing,whenever they want too.So,what bonuses do they get for doing it the long way?Some of the dragons have had tens of thousands of years learning magic.They most likely live in power sites around force 5-10. |
ok this tells me that dragons DO NOT follow the same rules for conjuring that we do and in fact could have summoned an extremely high force elemental maybe not as high as i had previously predicted force 100-200 but certainly more than 29. probably more realistically arouund the 50's
| QUOTE (Joker9125) |
| Pro Humans for the most part have never read anything on the horros and have never played earthdawn. They are basing their assumption on the horrors on what they belive and and speculation. |
Bullshit!
| QUOTE |
| If any pro humans out their have ever extensively read about the horrors and still think we can win please speak up. |
I have, and there are quite a few others here who are in the same category.
I was thinking about the blood elf solution. It works because the horrors are unable to be the torturer. That solution has horrible consiquences, but what if we went to the other end of the spectrum? What if we gene engineered the pain processing functions of our body out of the human genome. We couldn't feel hurt in any way. We'd have to build nanite hives to deal with damage because our bodies would no longer respond, but we would deny food to many of the more dangerous horrors, like Artificer in particular (those that may be tough, but will never engage you directly). Now it wont do much for the creme of the crop that feed off of more complex emotions like guilt.
Also, I've read extensively about the horrors and I've played Earthdawn a lot, and I have to say that the pro-humans are pretty convincing. I'm starting to think this is going to be the last go around. Either they wipe us out, or we invade the Horrors metaplane and reduce it to a smoking mana warp.
To respond to selected other things. Someone said that I had gotten it wrong when I said Horror Stalkers can send a damaging attack down a horror mark. I beg to differ, it's called Death Strike. It goes off AUTOMATICALLY if you succumb to a horrors will. You roll your Death Strike dice + ALL availible karma in an attempt to punch through the horrors defenses (incinerating yourself in the process). If you get through their defense (which is a pretty good likelihood) then you cause Willforce+Toughness damage to the horror that they can not reduce or defend against in any way (this would be the equivalent of causing Body+Willpower+Initiate Grade boxes of damage with no resistance roll) It may not kill the horror, he may in fact recover, but it's puts him in a world of hurt (or at least you hope it does). Now ther reason I say that horror stalkers are masochistic and nuts is because they learn deathstrike before they learn how to suppress the effects of a horror mark. Well that and THEY GO OUT LOOKING FOR HORRORS on a regular basis.
Telling the pro-humans to shut up and read the books is still a cop out, irregardless of its validity. Share the knowledge, don't throw it in peoples faces.
The dragons probably didn't do summoning like anything described in MitS. My guess is that they actually travelled to the appropriate plane and either dragged the elemental back or (more likely) bartered to gain it's service. No rolls to have a 50% chance on, pure roleplaying.
The horrors were created to fight each other endlessly for Verjigorms amusement. Just because we broke off, doesn't mean that they stopped. This would lead me to conclude that the horrors are constantly refining their abilities in combat and magic.
Smart FAB that is designed attack only "horror auras" wont work. There isn't a core horror aura, like there is a Human or Elven one. It would be like making Smart FAB that is designed to attack "living auras" oh wait...it already does.
However, studying and tailoring to a specific horror and using it against them would work but sounds like a long and tricky process.
Well, there's probably other stuff I wanted to respond to, but I've forgotten.
Also, I've read extensively about the horrors and I've played Earthdawn a lot, and I have to say that the pro-humans are pretty convincing. I'm starting to think this is going to be the last go around. Either they wipe us out, or we invade the Horrors metaplane and reduce it to a smoking mana warp.
To respond to selected other things. Someone said that I had gotten it wrong when I said Horror Stalkers can send a damaging attack down a horror mark. I beg to differ, it's called Death Strike. It goes off AUTOMATICALLY if you succumb to a horrors will. You roll your Death Strike dice + ALL availible karma in an attempt to punch through the horrors defenses (incinerating yourself in the process). If you get through their defense (which is a pretty good likelihood) then you cause Willforce+Toughness damage to the horror that they can not reduce or defend against in any way (this would be the equivalent of causing Body+Willpower+Initiate Grade boxes of damage with no resistance roll) It may not kill the horror, he may in fact recover, but it's puts him in a world of hurt (or at least you hope it does). Now ther reason I say that horror stalkers are masochistic and nuts is because they learn deathstrike before they learn how to suppress the effects of a horror mark. Well that and THEY GO OUT LOOKING FOR HORRORS on a regular basis.
Telling the pro-humans to shut up and read the books is still a cop out, irregardless of its validity. Share the knowledge, don't throw it in peoples faces.
The dragons probably didn't do summoning like anything described in MitS. My guess is that they actually travelled to the appropriate plane and either dragged the elemental back or (more likely) bartered to gain it's service. No rolls to have a 50% chance on, pure roleplaying.
The horrors were created to fight each other endlessly for Verjigorms amusement. Just because we broke off, doesn't mean that they stopped. This would lead me to conclude that the horrors are constantly refining their abilities in combat and magic.
Smart FAB that is designed attack only "horror auras" wont work. There isn't a core horror aura, like there is a Human or Elven one. It would be like making Smart FAB that is designed to attack "living auras" oh wait...it already does.
However, studying and tailoring to a specific horror and using it against them would work but sounds like a long and tricky process.
Well, there's probably other stuff I wanted to respond to, but I've forgotten.
Firepower to stop the least of them. No sense of pain to stop the middle ones. Watch too much TV so that you don't have a soul for the big ones to care about.
The most complete way to survive a scourge, but the damage you do to humanity in the process is far from minor. Some would rather be tortured than exist in such a state.
The most complete way to survive a scourge, but the damage you do to humanity in the process is far from minor. Some would rather be tortured than exist in such a state.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
Bullshit!
I have, and there are quite a few others here who are in the same category. |
This is why I used the word most.
Let us look into the meaning of the word most to clarify this...
I looked up on webster.com and guess what most does not mean all
if you would like a source on this try
http://www.webster.com/ and search for most
lets look at the thesuras to see if all is a synonym of most
hmm not suprisingly all and most are not synonyms if you want a source for this try
http://www.webster.com/ and search for most
Well my friend YOU would not fall under the most category. But the majority of people in here that I have seen have continually asked for cannon refferences and what books to read to get info. This tells me that these people have not read the sourcebooks on the horrors.
The high tech version of the blood elves. A borg-like hive society reduced to emotionless drones and possibly a few heavily defended masters. THX-1138
It is pretty clear in earthdawn that the blood elves did not find a way to win with thier thorn ritual. At best they found a way to a draw. For one thing they are still cursed with the thorns a couple hundred years after the scourge has died down. Who knows how long it took them to undo it? Also I do not think they were living freely on the surface with their thorns, they just managed to survive a major defect in thier defenses reducing the intensity of horror attacks to a level they could resist. Personally I think it would be sort of cool if the whole thorn thing turned out to be some kind of horror trick anyway: that somewhere there was an uber-horror who was feeding off all of that pain for a couple thousand years and not even the elves knew about it. Or alternatively that some of the immortal elves in SR still have the thorns, but have somehow hidden them and adapted to thier presence. Survival through one scourge bought with an eternity of pain.
There was a group of humans in earthdawn who lived for some long time (several decades I think) inside a breached kaer before they escaped, or were rescued some time after the scourge. They were pretty psychologically damaged though.
It is pretty clear in earthdawn that the blood elves did not find a way to win with thier thorn ritual. At best they found a way to a draw. For one thing they are still cursed with the thorns a couple hundred years after the scourge has died down. Who knows how long it took them to undo it? Also I do not think they were living freely on the surface with their thorns, they just managed to survive a major defect in thier defenses reducing the intensity of horror attacks to a level they could resist. Personally I think it would be sort of cool if the whole thorn thing turned out to be some kind of horror trick anyway: that somewhere there was an uber-horror who was feeding off all of that pain for a couple thousand years and not even the elves knew about it. Or alternatively that some of the immortal elves in SR still have the thorns, but have somehow hidden them and adapted to thier presence. Survival through one scourge bought with an eternity of pain.
There was a group of humans in earthdawn who lived for some long time (several decades I think) inside a breached kaer before they escaped, or were rescued some time after the scourge. They were pretty psychologically damaged though.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Firepower to stop the least of them. No sense of pain to stop the middle ones. Watch too much TV so that you don't have a soul for the big ones to care about. |
hmm... now this idea I like.
But havent drugs and TV already done that in the 5th world
| QUOTE (Joker9125) |
| Let us look into the meaning of the word most to clarify this... I looked up on webster.com and guess what most does not mean all if you would like a source on this try http://www.webster.com/ and search for most lets look at the thesuras to see if all is a synonym of most hmm not suprisingly all and most are not synonyms if you want a source for this try http://www.webster.com/ and search for most |
You're so badass.
| QUOTE (Rattler) | ||
You're so badass. |
Thank You.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Jan 2 2004, 08:54 PM) |
| Firepower to stop the least of them. No sense of pain to stop the middle ones. Watch too much TV so that you don't have a soul for the big ones to care about. The most complete way to survive a scourge, but the damage you do to humanity in the process is far from minor. Some would rather be tortured than exist in such a state. |
This is a step in the right direction to beat them permanently. This is the kind of idea's that we should be focusing on. The horrors that we have to worry about will be using psychological assaults this allows us to use their own weapon against them.
Edit- Rather than just nuking the shit out of everything and furthering their goals.
| QUOTE (Joker9125 @ Jan 2 2004, 09:26 PM) |
| This is a step in the right direction to beat them permanently. This is the kind of idea's that we should be focusing on. The horrors that we have to worry about will be using psychological assaults this allows us to use their own weapon against them. |
No, this is not using their own weapons against them. It is suicide to dodge the prison.
| QUOTE (Joker9125) | ||
This is the kind of idea's that we should be focusing on. Rather than just nuking the shit out of everything and furthering their goals. |
Firepower to stop the least of them != Nuking the shit out of them? I still don't see it "furthering their goals" if metahumanity vaporizes all the least powerful horrors.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
I have, and there are quite a few others here who are in the same category. |
I am.
I'm already of the mind, that this entire argument is pointless and doesn't prove anything other than some of us take things a lot more seriously than others.
As for final ultimate proof of human victory, I once again mention Munchkin Force™ and their awesome creed:
"If it has a text entry, we can kill it. If it has stats, its already dead."
| QUOTE (Nargrakhan) |
| As for final ultimate proof of human victory, I once again mention Munchkin Force™ and their awesome creed: "If it has a text entry, we can kill it. If it has stats, its already dead." |
Which makes it funnier that there are numbers for all listed Horrors, but not for any great dragons...which would indicate that there won't really be much of a battle.
Send in the Munchkins!!!! The world's last line of defense!
From what I understand of the Blood Wood, it wasn't really a kaer at all, the blood elves just made themselves undesireable to the horrors by using magic to put themselves in a constant state of pain. If so, just imagine what you could do with simsense chips for the masses using technology just from "today." Imagine how far advanced that technology will be after ten thousand years. It could very well make it totally pointless for the horrors to even bother coming in for the invasion.
I have a vision of an adventure pack where artificer and Deus duke it out. Shadowrunners are enlisted to battle matrix horrors to aid Deus and win the day.
Seriously, there's no use for Deckers in this fight. Nobody has considered their use because the Horrors have no reach into the Matrix. In order to make the game interesting Fanpro will need Cybernetic Horrors. A good way to do this might be corrupted/marked deckers who are somehow able to translate a Horror's astral form into pure data and download it into a whole new playground. Be a rather cool dimension to add to things, and I just like the notion of Deus taking on Artificer, probably wiping each other out in the process. Kind of like the ARDNEH/Orcus battle in Empire of the East, perhaps.
Seriously, there's no use for Deckers in this fight. Nobody has considered their use because the Horrors have no reach into the Matrix. In order to make the game interesting Fanpro will need Cybernetic Horrors. A good way to do this might be corrupted/marked deckers who are somehow able to translate a Horror's astral form into pure data and download it into a whole new playground. Be a rather cool dimension to add to things, and I just like the notion of Deus taking on Artificer, probably wiping each other out in the process. Kind of like the ARDNEH/Orcus battle in Empire of the East, perhaps.
I've heard something about corrupted Otaku trying to enhance dark resonnance (or something) in the Matrix. Anyone think that this could be a horror of a sort?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||||
Firepower to stop the least of them != Nuking the shit out of them? I still don't see it "furthering their goals" if metahumanity vaporizes all the least powerful horrors. |
What part of, "nuclear devices corrupt the environment," do you not understand?
Corrupting and polluting the environment is one of the things the horrors will do. It makes the environment more habitable for them and less for us. If you use nuclear weapons and biological weapons, you further THIER goals... not yours. Nuclear weapons are not your freind by any stretch of the imagination and even as a last ditch effort they still aren't the best choice.
| QUOTE (Reaver) |
| What part of, "nuclear devices corrupt the environment," do you not understand? |
The part where nuclear fusion doesn't. By the 2060s, we will certainly have ways to easily detonate fusion warheads without a fission detonator, and then we can get in on the megaton-goodness without that many environmental problems. Or at least the problems from radiation will be far outweighed by the 200 meters deep by 1 kilometer wide crater and the burning away of anything flammable within a hundred kilometers. But getting that same destructive effect with conventional weapons will cause the same problems anyway.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
The part where nuclear fusion doesn't. By the 2060s, we will certainly have ways to easily detonate fusion warheads without a fission detonator, and then we can get in on the megaton-goodness without that many environmental problems. Or at least the problems from radiation will be far outweighed by the 200 meters deep by 1 kilometer wide crater and the burning away of anything flammable within a hundred kilometers. But getting that same destructive effect with conventional weapons will cause the same problems anyway. |
Then don't call it a nuke. When you say nuke, everyone is going to be thinking of standard fission weapons.
| QUOTE |
| Then don't call it a nuke. When you say nuke, everyone is going to be thinking of standard fission weapons. |
"Fusioning the shit out of everyone" just doesn't sound as nice.
| QUOTE |
| there's no use for Deckers in this fight. Nobody has considered their use because the Horrors have no reach into the Matrix. |
Corrupted Halbestrom Babies.
| QUOTE |
| Which makes it funnier that there are numbers for all listed Horrors, but not for any great dragons...which would indicate that there won't really be much of a battle. |
They do give generic great dragon stats, and those are on par with the more powerful horrors.
| QUOTE |
| They do give generic great dragon stats, and those are on par with the more powerful horrors. |
I suppose that could be considered good news (because the stats of generic Great Dragons are pretty darn weak), if not for the fact that the stats of such critters are not very significant.
It has always amused me that it is quite possible, and in fact not even very difficult, to get a troll the Body rating of an average Western Great Dragon.
Wouldn't most Horror powers be LOS dependant just like spirit powers and spells? If so, by ~10,000 years, we should easily have the equivalence of power armor and vector-thrust main battle tanks (complete with armadas of drones) with so much armor not even the greatest of Great Dragons would be able to stop it physically, and they should easily be able to construct powerful wards and other means of protection inside. Or in other words, mobile kaers with BFGs.
High speed + incredible armor + magical protection + unbelievably powerful weapons that make naval weapons look like child play + support armadas should/would easily put us on par with the Horrors. Especially if, by then, mages should be a dime a dozen and able to join the fight from within, relatively safely hidden behind we-can-see-you-but-you-can't-see-us protection.
Unless Horrors can mark individuals just by having them be aware of them, which I think is kind of silly. Few, if any, who've learned to suspected the existance of the Horrors -- including runners used in adventures like Harlequinn's Back -- didn't go crazy or become irreversibly evil. Even those who may have seen them on the other side of the metaplanar chasm while on a metaplane and not behind the lack-of-LOS protection of heavy armory.
Again, not everyone is going to be able to make it into the modern-day kaers, so those who won't would be best to at least fight rather than sit around and twiddle their thumbs for when the Horrors come through.
High speed + incredible armor + magical protection + unbelievably powerful weapons that make naval weapons look like child play + support armadas should/would easily put us on par with the Horrors. Especially if, by then, mages should be a dime a dozen and able to join the fight from within, relatively safely hidden behind we-can-see-you-but-you-can't-see-us protection.
Unless Horrors can mark individuals just by having them be aware of them, which I think is kind of silly. Few, if any, who've learned to suspected the existance of the Horrors -- including runners used in adventures like Harlequinn's Back -- didn't go crazy or become irreversibly evil. Even those who may have seen them on the other side of the metaplanar chasm while on a metaplane and not behind the lack-of-LOS protection of heavy armory.
Again, not everyone is going to be able to make it into the modern-day kaers, so those who won't would be best to at least fight rather than sit around and twiddle their thumbs for when the Horrors come through.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
The part where nuclear fusion doesn't. By the 2060s, we will certainly have ways to easily detonate fusion warheads without a fission detonator, and then we can get in on the megaton-goodness without that many environmental problems. Or at least the problems from radiation will be far outweighed by the 200 meters deep by 1 kilometer wide crater and the burning away of anything flammable within a hundred kilometers. But getting that same destructive effect with conventional weapons will cause the same problems anyway. |
Got a page number on us "having ways to easily detonate fusion warheads without a fission detonator, and then we can get in on the megaton-goodness without that many environmental problems" i havent read anything about fission warheads in the 6th world of the 2060's in cannon. Of course again I could just be horribly mistaken.
| QUOTE (Snake Oil) |
| High speed + incredible armor + magical protection + unbelievably powerful weapons that make naval weapons look like child play + support armadas should/would easily put us on par with the Horrors. Especially if, by then, mages should be a dime a dozen and able to join the fight from within, relatively safely hidden behind we-can-see-you-but-you-can't-see-us protection. |
Yes everyone lets play the futuristic "What if?" game
"What if" there is a huge natural disaster before the horrors get here and a lot of our technology is wiped out? Not all we would still have some but not all.
"What if” Their is a huger nuclear war and we lose a lot of our technology that way?
The point is 3,000 years is a LONG time away from now and no one can say what will happen between now and then hell we could even be living in caves.
Hiding behind the future and predicting our advances in technology is a strong arguemnt but is NOT fullproof by any means.
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