That depends entirely on who one is betting with, now doesn't it?

JaronK

Since horrors are the ultrasuperhyperüber Primordial Evil, I wouldn't exactly count on them to give you your money once they've slaughtered most of earth's population and enslaved/are in the process of torturing the rest.

Some of them can be quite indulgent. See Ysrthgrathe's letter above.

~J

Yes. The quintessential ITASPTMMFBATTLWMSYCDENN. Sort of like a mix of the good ole insane/animal/sadistic/monster vampires and the new angsty gothic vampires but with an ego that dwarfs that of any dracula. Still not the kind of critter a wise man makes a bet with, if only because of the 30-minute monologue about how Ysrthgrth the Magnificent (all good names have a distinct lack of vowels) played you like a pawn and knew everything all along and how it will feast on your soul and blah-di-blah-blah.

There are two interpretations I have for the letter. One is that it is in some way deceptive or misleading, and that he gains something specific from its release. The second is that it is entirely or mostly exactly what it seems, and that he is releasing it because it amuses him and because he has nothing to lose from it; essentially, the Horror version of Agent Smith's rant to Morpheus. I personally prefer the second interpretation because it is, in my opinion, cooler, but the first is still valid.

~J

Wow, I seem to have missed this one completely... how'd that happen...

This point has probably been made, but:

I say we DO stand a good chance against the Horrors. I think this because at least two of the entities who lived through the last Scourge (Harlequin and Dunkelzahn) seem to think it. They're the ones with the practical experience <shrug>.

Welcome to the winning team, chummer.

Alachia did survive the Scourge...just a bit pointier...

It takes more than just surviving to be the "winning team".

~J

I think survival would be enough. Where there's life there's Hope. Humanity might have to go through massive cultural changes or something, but those things don't last forever. In our entire history we've manage to endure all the varieties of horror (small h) done to each other. If we can survive the (big H) Horrors, we will recover.

On the other hand, if humanity survives untill the next upcyle of magic, the Horrors win too, don't they? Why in the multiverse would they want to kill off all their cows?

Where there's hope, there are Horrors to feed on the destruction of said hope.

That was actually my point, though. Metahumans surviving means nothing. The Horrors just come back and feed again next cycle. The debate was over whether metahumans could stand tall and fight and repulse the Horrors rather than fleeing to Kaers.

Also keep in mind that not all Horrors seek overt destruction. Take a look at Chantrel: she survived, and I don't think she won.

~J

Well, as for totally destroying the Horrors, possible but not probable. At least in this cycle. Namegivers are arguably getting stronger with each cycle, so eventually they might get it together enough to not only beat back the Horrors but totally stop them.

It's possible that in this cycle they can be fought off but I don't see any way to destroy them or stop them from accessing our plane this time around. Maybe next time.

the problem with your theory Kage is dragon history

The dragons had long term recording devices before we learned writing

their recordings show that Vergigorm, the King of all horrors, seeks the destruction of all intelligent life

Each time we survive to a downcycle we get "I'll get you next time Gadget" syndrome.

and each time we make it we end up stronger the next upcycle.

Uh he wanted to destroy ALL the children of the original rebel horror... which happens to include ALL namegiver races

It's a game. If the designers want the horrors to be beatable, they will introduce beatable horrors that can't keep up with the SOTA. If the horrors aren't beatable, I don't think the designers will publish a sourcebook about it. They'll just skip ahead to the next emergence from the cairns. Personally I believe (and I've seen hints) that the designers would (if this game stays in publication long enough) make the horrors at least survivable face to face. Hiding in cairns would likely be a lousy RP experience.

As a side note, forgive me for not reading all the 600+ posts before this one.

^

Aspiring Horror victim.

Aren't the dragons, technically speaking, Horrors?

Also, who's Sparda?

Well, you see...All humans are evil.

Da9iel said

I don't forgive! If I can read the whole damn thread, then everyone else should be able to.

Who's to say the Horrors are not among us, in present day Shadowrun?

Regarding the Artificer question, even if it could use nuclear weapons in the world of Earthdawn, why would it in Shadowrun? The true objective of Horrors has never been utter and total destruction. Would -you- purposefully destroy your entire food supply? The Sixth World with 6 BILLION metahumans of every shape, size and color is a veritable buffet table for the Horrors, and they are probably immensely hungry after being away for so long. Besides, what sort of emotional torment and pain would result in being disintegrated in 3 seconds by a nuclear blast?

Put yourself in their position. If you were them, what would you do? I know what I would do. I would infiltrate the higher levels of government and the megacorps and control things there, manipulating humanity to do my bidding and lunching on occasion with the pain and suffering people see in their newspapers day to day and ignore. I'm surprised to see how many people vote in favor of the metaraces whipping Horrorbooty. A few things to keep in mind is that the dillution of everything was much less greater in the era of Earthdawn than it is in Shadowrun. The races were far fewer generations away from origination with the converted Horror who's tears spawned them.

And the Horror's we're talking about here aren't no cyberzombies with Adept powers. Some of them, in a modern setting, would be practically invincible. Artificer was mentioned, and links up remarkably well with Deus, albeit Deus would be a much MUCH watered down form of Arty. Another one thats just scary to think about is Bonecrown the Usurper. Bonecrown the Usurper adds another step to his karma rating for every five people that follow him or that follow people who follow him. This aspect of his Horror-ific nature wasn't so bad in a time when population was much much lower, though he did annihilate an entire empire, Thera or Parlainth, I forget which. Some simple math- If for every post in the Dumpshock Forums there was one individual who directly or indirectly followed Bonecrown's lead as Chief or President or CEO or what have you, he would have a Karma Step of 24,423. The statistical probability of him beating you in anything? Really really good. The only thing which might stand a chance against a horror like that would be Corrupt Karma. And hey, its a Horror Power.

Now imagine if ol' BC through some wheeling and dealing climbed to the top of the heap in a company through a few shady deals with a magic flavor to them. Lets say he's Juan Atzcapotzalco. Karma step of about 60 million. How do you roll that?

---GreyPawn
---Shadowrun-Online.com

OK... dragons are Horror constructs. Check.

Now, Sparda? Also, Temper? And what do some of these things looks like anyway?

Tempter looks like a burr you picked up in the woods.

Bone Crown looks like any Namegiver it wants to save Dragons, IIRC.

~J

Wait, woah, ReName?

Yes. ReName. Verjigorm hunts and kills Great Dragons. And she takes their clutches of eggs and corrupts them. Her primary goal is to create a new race, capable of ReNaming the entirety of existence and thereby remoulding the universe to the way it was before the Ex-Horror. For the life of me I can't remember what that Ex-Horror's name was.

---GreyPawn
---Shadowrun-Online.com

Her name was dragon

teh horers r teh luzrs!!!11 teh humns wil win go humns!!!!111

(An hour and a half left!! I breathed a sigh of relief when I realized my new year will be saved...)

It was up with several hours to go, but I had much the same reaction.

Clearly the Horrors are toying with us like the insects you… er, we are.

~J