Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The CGL situation p3
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25
Caine Hazen
redacted and reopened
Penta
That was...fascinating.
Stahlseele
indeed.
Centurion13
Sorry to have spoiled things there.

Obviously I don't do forums very often.

Cent13
Tanegar
Holy fucking asscrackers, guys, how long are we going to hash this over? I'm concerned about Catalyst, too, but there's sweet fuck-all we can do about it, and the discussion has now resulted in two threads self-destructing. Go read a book or something. Or, you know, play Shadowrun.
Centurion13
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 27 2010, 10:54 PM) *
Holy fucking asscrackers, guys, how long are we going to hash this over? I'm concerned about Catalyst, too, but there's sweet fuck-all we can do about it, and the discussion has now resulted in two threads self-destructing. Go read a book or something. Or, you know, play Shadowrun.



Point taken. I have some shopping to do anyway.

Cent13
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 27 2010, 11:54 PM) *
Holy fucking asscrackers, guys, how long are we going to hash this over? I'm concerned about Catalyst, too, but there's sweet fuck-all we can do about it, and the discussion has now resulted in two threads self-destructing. Go read a book or something. Or, you know, play Shadowrun.

If you don't like it, don't read it.
This needs to be discussed.
Granted, a bit more civil than before, but still.
Usually, the admins and moderators around here are a bit more lenient, it's HIGHLY seldom that threads get locked/deleted.
Seeing how this has happened twice allready in this discussion, there is a good deal of emotional investment involved here.
Abschalten
Wow, I must've missed something epic while I was getting supper.
Stahlseele
Yeah, frank sadly went down the religious route and someone rose to the bait and countered with evolution needing the same faith as religion.
Ancient History
Well, when in doubt the Terms of Service always apply. Dumpshock has always been very good about not publishing "private" communications, whether they be your PMs or, in this case, Randall's private letter to the freelancers concerning the situation.
Abschalten
Yep, that'll do it.
Stahlseele
Ah, yes, of course, that too, i forgot about that.
Just good, that i made copies of franks postings, like a good little paranoid runner . .
OneTrikPony
You realize of course that killing that thread is FULL CONFIRMATION of the truth in those posts about the Email.

I was just waiting for a thread lock or for JM to come on. I got my wish. Everything Frank said is true.


I still think this is fun. A tiny fraction of me is still hopefully ammused, waiting to see what people are saying in 5 days. This could be the biggest one ever.

QUOTE
Yeah, frank sadly went down the religious route and someone rose to the bait and countered with evolution needing the same faith as religion.

BWWAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAAAA!
Props Stahlseele that was funny.
Ancient History
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Mar 28 2010, 12:16 AM) *
You realize of course that killing that thread is FULL CONFIRMATION of the truth in those posts about the Email.

Well, no. Killing the thread was a direct response to violation of the ToS. Randall's letter is as close to full confirmation of anything as you're likely to get.
Khyron
There are a variety of reasons to kill a thread, it doesn't mean confirmation of anything.
Stahlseele
You're not a real conspiracy nut if you can still say that . .
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 27 2010, 07:18 PM) *
Well, no. Killing the thread was a direct response to violation of the ToS. Randall's letter is as close to full confirmation of anything as you're likely to get.

Ya. but for me, being an ousider, the thread lock, (and your comment above) prove that the letter existed and that the content was as posted. It turned 3rd party rumor into verified info.

Wait... did someone actually post the text of the letter while I wasn't looking? Last post I saw it was still just one guy saying he saw the letter somewhere.

Thanks AH biggrin.gif
(again; any chance that you'll get to share your PACKS at some point?)
Stahlseele
Yes, frank got the letter from someone and posted it.
Which is a banable offense.
Ancient History
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Mar 28 2010, 12:24 AM) *
Wait... did someone actually post the text of the letter while I wasn't looking? Last post I saw it was still just one guy saying he saw the letter somewhere.

Yes, Frank posted the contents of the letter. Which led fairly directly to us having a bright, shiny, new thread.

QUOTE
Thanks AH biggrin.gif
(again; any chance that you'll get to share your PACKS at some point?)

If the Runners Toolkit is published without my PACKS, I'll post my PACKS for comparison.
LurkerOutThere
Yes man, you are just far too clever for us on the internet and ahve seen through our clever corporate disguise, hows the doctorate and the first mil coming by the way?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 28 2010, 12:30 AM) *
Yes, Frank posted the contents of the letter. Which led fairly directly to us having a bright, shiny, new thread.


If the Runners Toolkit is published without my PACKS, I'll post my PACKS for comparison.

I will be waiting for this ^^
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Mar 27 2010, 07:30 PM) *
Yes man, you are just far too clever for us on the internet and ahve seen through our clever corporate disguise, hows the doctorate and the first mil coming by the way?

LOL (blow me!)

Frank didn't need to post the actual letter. That's not fun. That kind of real information is killing my hope that this is still an april fools day thing. He should have waited till tuesday. frown.gif

BTW. if Coleman really is a thieving prick and all of this is true what ARE you guys going to do for April Fools? You might as well just tell because you'll never top this. biggrin.gif
Stahlseele
Well before the Fasa Curse came back up again and it went all SNAFU on us, there was talk about Battlerun 2 if i remember correctly.
Ghremdal
Just to chime in my 0.02 nuyen.gif.

I hope that Catalyst pulls through. I got into Shadowrun 6 months ago, and just fell in love with it. Mostly due to the great lore, but also a large part in that has been the mechanics and the overall book presentations. I love the short stories in front of each chapter, the commentaries of Jackpointers, and the art. So kudos to all who worked on them. As a long time DnD player, Shadowrun was a fresh, invigorating experience that changed my outlook on RPGs.
Stahlseele
In Shadowrun, the whole world is your dungeon and you probably work for one of the dragons living in it.
Ghremdal
Very likely. Is there anything dragons don't control (I count several AAA corps, the Triads, Yakuza...)?

Though a lot of my lore came from Shapcano's and Rat's stories, and what I've been able to scrape together on Ancient History's site and the 6th world wiki. For a long while I thought that the mana cycles in ~25 k years, rather then the canon 5k.

Anyway what I'm trying to say, even if Catalyst doesn't make it through (and I hope they do), imho there are a lot of fan based enhancements to the core rules that will provide me plenty of fun.
Adam
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Mar 27 2010, 07:40 PM) *
Frank didn't need to post the actual letter. That's not fun. That kind of real information is killing my hope that this is still an april fools day thing.


There is no elaborate joke going on.
Delarn
Wait there was someone crazy enough to have posted PM onto the board ... He's he just plain stupid or is it my imagination ?
Method
And so ends Franks return to Dumpshock. Good times.

I gotta admit tho, I miss having that guy around. Not the controversy, mind you, but he has some great ideas about SR.
JM Hardy
Well, look what happens when I decide to spend the day with my family!

I'm mainly popping in to say I'm still here to say what I can, but also to insist that there are some things that are private that I will keep private, even if other people don't feel compelled to do so.

Jason H.
Zolhex
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Mar 27 2010, 10:36 PM) *
Well, look what happens when I decide to spend the day with my family!

I'm mainly popping in to say I'm still here to say what I can, but also to insist that there are some things that are private that I will keep private, even if other people don't feel compelled to do so.

Jason H.


Don't feel bad I missed all the excitment too silly me I was playing Shadowrun with my friends grinbig.gif .
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Casazil @ Mar 27 2010, 11:14 PM) *
Don't feel bad I missed all the excitment too silly me I was playing Shadowrun with my friends grinbig.gif .


Excellent, excellent decision.

Jason H.
Grexul
Wow! I'm glad to know it wasn't my pithy little comment that closed the thread.
There is alot of difference between a private letter to the freelancers and a press release to a forum, the second can and usually does contain considerable spin, the first should be as straight as possible.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.
Method
QUOTE (Casazil @ Mar 27 2010, 08:14 PM) *
Don't feel bad I missed all the excitment too silly me I was playing Shadowrun with my friends grinbig.gif .
You didn't miss much. You made the right decision.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Greul @ Mar 27 2010, 11:55 PM) *
Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.

I tried sending you a private message, but you have them disabled. Anyway, if your name was an innocent mistake and not part of an image you're going for, you can send a message to Adam or most of the other mods here and ask them to change it for you. Adam was kind enough to do so for me when my name was too long for the new forum software (I was going by Doctor Funkenstein then). smile.gif
nemafow
Man, I miss the forums for a day and the whole thing blows up, and I don't know diddly squat of whats happened.
Khyron
Frank is still posting the letter around but not on DS.
Method
[edit]- NM. I was going to give a synopsis without details, but Khyron already threw it out there.
Oehler the Black
Jeez I play one session of SR and miss some crazy thread drama?
Would anyone care to stifle wild speculation and provide myself and the other neophytes an idea of wtf just happened? question.gif
Grexul
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Mar 27 2010, 09:51 PM) *
I tried sending you a private message, but you have them disabled. Anyway, if your name was an innocent mistake and not part of an image you're going for, you can send a message to Adam or most of the other mods here and ask them to change it for you. Adam was kind enough to do so for me when my name was too long for the new forum software (I was going by Doctor Funkenstein then). smile.gif

Thanks for the info, I haven't found how to enable PMs yet, so I haven't been ale to PM anyone. Grexul has been the name of several my PCs over the years, in SR and D&D. It came from an old fantasy novel by Lin Carter.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.
Khyron
QUOTE (Greul @ Mar 28 2010, 03:50 AM) *
Thanks for the info, I haven't found how to enable PMs yet, so I haven't been ale to PM anyone. Grexul has been the name of several my PCs over the years, in SR and D&D. It came from an old fantasy novel by Lin Carter.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.


It's the board spambot protection system. You need something like 10 posts before you can PM.
nemafow
Ah, I found the letter posted on the intrawebs... I see what I missed. Interesting.
SecGuard
QUOTE (Greul @ Mar 28 2010, 09:50 AM) *
Thanks for the info, I haven't found how to enable PMs yet, so I haven't been ale to PM anyone. Grexul has been the name of several my PCs over the years, in SR and D&D. It came from an old fantasy novel by Lin Carter.

Grexul

My screenname is missing an 'x'.



You're up too 10 now so you should be able too PM now.

Man i went to get some sleep and thread2 went into meltdown.
knasser
QUOTE (Oehler the Black @ Mar 28 2010, 08:54 AM) *
Jeez I play one session of SR and miss some crazy thread drama?
Would anyone care to stifle wild speculation and provide myself and the other neophytes an idea of wtf just happened? question.gif


A letter to freelancers was posted on private freelancer forums from the Managing Developer of CGL. At least one of the free lancers decided it should be public and used the anonymous remailing services of FrankTrollman - he being the one that cannot be fired and cannot be blacklisted by the industry any further than he already is. The letter appeared here and on other sites.

For some reason I can't quite fathom, this resulted in the entire thread being deleted. That's pretty off, imo. There was some momentary religious conflagration because the letter was a personal letter and the author stated how their religious beliefs influenced their decisions in this matter. Frank made some comment about religious hoo-haw not trumping the law or similar. Someone else launched launched into one on that. Then thread-boom.

The letter basically admits in different words that Loren Coleman and his wife have embezzled money from CGL, by implication confirms the scale of it is large and that this situation has been brewing for some time.

Posting private correspondence is against the terms of DS, apparently, and Frank has now been super-banned from Dumpshock. Though it must be said as Frank is no longer allowed to defend himself on these forums that the letter was posted on a forum for the freelancers and he was asked by one or more of those freelancers to let us the community see it. If you send someone a letter, you have no legal power over what that person gets to do with it or share it with. The moral issue of whether to share it or not, obviously is impacted by the contents. In this case, one or more of the freelancers felt the content needed to be shared with the fans.

Now simply deleting the thread wont silence questioning about the letter (the reverse) and censoring discussion of it will just lead to more confusion, questions and discussion (as we are seeing). I am reminded of the old British joke - "It's not true until a government official denies it". So this is the cleanest summary of the letter situation I can provide and hopefully it will satisfy everyone's legitimate curiousity about "what just happened" and prevent this becoming a censorship war which will only reflect badly on the DS and inflame the curious further.

Peace,

Khadim.
Tycho
some people never learn the lesson...

The letter is now all over the RPG sites und forums.
Thanks, Frank Trollman for sharing this information.

cya
Tycho
BTFreeLancer
QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 28 2010, 10:06 AM) *
A letter to freelancers was posted on private freelancer forums from the Managing Developer of CGL.


You realize of course the Managing Developer of CGL is the co-owner, and the person who has the *most* at stake here.

some of us received the letter by private email. If it was on a private forum, that's where it should have stayed.

QUOTE
At least one of the free lancers decided it should be public and used the anonymous remailing services of FrankTrollman


And what gives them that right?

I don't have an issue with Frank posting the letter, he's never made any secret of his bias, and in this case he's simply an automaton that follows what instructions he's been given, and then kicks into pavlovian response on forums. My ire is reserved for those few SR freelancers who are pulling his strings anonymously. I don't particularly want my dirty laundry aired, especially without my consent. On the email that was sent out, I count 50+ BT Freelancers - not sure of the SR numbers, but I'd imagine they'd be similar. Why should I have any respect for the people who selfishly decided that all 100+ people (and that's just the SR and BT IPs, the other IPs would increase that) should have their financial situation with CGL aired in public?

If that letter was directly addressed to those freelancers with concerns - and only them - then they could do what they want with it.

But it wasn't.
Cain
QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 28 2010, 02:06 AM) *
Posting private correspondence is against the terms of DS, apparently, and Frank has now been super-banned from Dumpshock. Though it must be said as Frank is no longer allowed to defend himself on these forums that the letter was posted on a forum for the freelancers and he was asked by one or more of those freelancers to let us the community see it. If you send someone a letter, you have no legal power over what that person gets to do with it or share it with. The moral issue of whether to share it or not, obviously is impacted by the contents. In this case, one or more of the freelancers felt the content needed to be shared with the fans.

My question is, where is the ban on posting private correspondence in the ToS?

QUOTE
Rules

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

2. No spamming the forums, and no commercial posts allowed. This includes "bumping" or posting useless content for the purpose of bringing a thread to the top of the forum.

3. No sexually explicit or offensive material. This includes links leading to materials of this nature. DSF is accessed by many people in many different settings, and we want the forum to remain accessible to everyone.

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

5. No posts that contain pirated materials, requests for pirated materials, or advocacy of pirating are permitted.

6. No alternate accounts. Users of DSF may post under one account only. If multiple accounts are discovered to belong to one user, the additional accounts will be terminated. Do not share your password with other users. You are responsible for the actions of anyone else using your account.

(Usage constitutes ownership, at least in this case, when the original owner of an account passes on full posting and usage privileges to another person, and said person makes routine use of the account, especially if the original owner ceases to use the account.)

7. Your account must contain a real, working email address. You do not have to display this address publicly if you do not wish to do so (see the board settings).

8. You acknowledge that Dumpshock Forums staff does not pre-screen all content, but that the DSF Administration and Moderators have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to refuse, edit, move or remove any content that is publicly available. The DSF Administration reserves the right at all times to disclose any information as necessary to satisfy any applicable law, regulation, legal process or governmental request, or to edit, refuse to post or to remove any information or materials, in whole or in part.

9. Please understand that any PMs directed toward moderators or administrators in relation to administrative matters may be viewed by the entire forum staff.


I can see the religious thing as being against the ToS, but unlike RPG.net, there's no instruction against posting private emails. Also, there's nothing saying you can be banned for being suspected of leaking Shadowrun material; but according to the first post in this thread, that's exactly what happened.

I'm confused. Are there other rules we should be aware of?
hobgoblin
i say we point the hose on supposedly white horse frank is riding around on.

it would not surprise me the least that it turns out to be painted...
Bob Lord of Evil
You know over the years I have been required to sign something known as a NDA...(Non Disclosure Agreement) and I am betting the individual or individuals that requested Frank act as proxy had signed one as well.

So...yeah somebody(s) intentionally bypassed their NDA...they have every reason to be worried about being blacklisted within the industry.
Cain
QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ Mar 28 2010, 04:00 AM) *
You know over the years I have been required to sign something known as a NDA...(Non Disclosure Agreement) and I am betting the individual or individuals that requested Frank act as proxy had signed one as well.

So...yeah somebody(s) intentionally bypassed their NDA...they have every reason to be worried about being blacklisted within the industry.

You have a point, but that would depend on what's specifically covered in the NDA. If it didn't cover the material they were working on, they might be safe.

Could I ask any freelancers here what exactly is and isn't covered by the Catalyst NDA? Does it cover communication about payments, or does it cover all emails and forum posts?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012