Patrick covers this much better than I did. I still don't understand some of the community's reasoning here. We're cheering Frank for telling Topps what they already know? On a non-corporate affiliated, fan-run message board? Seems kind of like an indirect way to make Topps aware of this information they're completely unaware (so completely, clearly already aware) of. I haven't really paid attention to these forums in a while, but it seems to have become a really destructive minded place, rather than constructive like I remembered it. Rosy-colored glasses and all that I guess.

I wouldn't say this is representative of DS.

Between this and how many threads seem to degenerate into defining and worshipping RAW, or how much SR4 sucks, I'm not feeling real strong about the presentation the DS community gives. Things change, but I guess I'm just a little surprised by what this place has changed into.

I'm guessing Topps doesn't care about the CGL situation short of if they can pay the fees or not. They're in it for the money, not the fans, not the books, not the fancy custom dice. The money, which for them is the licensing fees.

Now it seems to be the general thought that if CGL does go down, it'll be picked up immediately and everything will be grand. But you know, what if it isn't? What if it sits for a decade because other companies see it as bad luck or think it's fanbase is too small to make enough money? Where does that leave the fans or freelancers?

I wish I could say that, but I've been burned here before, so I might still be a little bitter. I'd much rather believe you were right.

I think you get the good and the bad. Yes there are rules lawyers. Yes there are politics (you get that as a by-product of having around people who produce SR in an official capacity- having those people is a *good* thing). But most people are cool, the mods are moderate, and if you aren't into number crunching or rules lawyering there is still a wealth of great ideas and lots of good fan-generated material. I would also point out that there are plenty of voices defending CGL's decisions or denouncing Franks approach- they just don't demand as much attention, which is the nature of things.

You take the good, you take the bad and in between... facts of life. Yeah, I went there...

So let me get this straight...Topps (a company that was recently purchased for 385 million dollars) is so bereft of timely and accurate information that they need to have their employees monitor the Dumpshock forums for the inside scoop...seriously???

You know this whole..."We as fans have a right to know the most intimate inner workings of company X because we buy their product and have a vested interest in the property!"...makes me want to do the following...

A) Point out that Shadowrun is a game and a fictional setting not Toyota selling Prius's with sticky accelerators.

B) Look for the Thorazine.

As far as Frank's motivation...if ya see a guy holding a hatchet covered in blood you can be relatively certain that they just did a hatchet job on somebody or something.

Somebody(s) is in breach of their NDA...they violated their contract...it doesn't matter why or that they had a third party do it for them. If they want to get paid my advice is don't set the checkbook on fire.

I'm not a Shadowrun player, but I find the setting interesting, buy the books occasionally, and have lurked Dumpshock for ages. I'm appalled that Frank's flagrant and offensive comments regarding Randall's faith are being tolerated. If nothing else, they should be excised from his posts by the mod's powerful orange pens.

The letter made clear that lots of folks have been asking Randall WHY and HOW he can continue a business relationship with Loren Coleman. It's a state of mind question, not something that's going to be answered factually. That Randall referenced his faith as something he's turned to at a very difficult time and has influenced his thought process is hardly shocking. He notes that he's felt "rage" and that, in part because he's drawn strength and guidance from his faith, he's attempting to overcome anger and feel compassion and forgiveness that will allow him to move on.

There's no suggestion in the letter that anyone received a "sign from God," nor does Randall mention Jesus. Derisively referring to a "loving Jesus" and describing Randall as "Jesus' sock puppet" for attempting to be something other than a ball of fury is . . . well, it doesn't belong here. It doesn't belong anywhere. That there's another cheap shot in THIS post, after being warned about religious references in the last thread, shows that Frank simply doesn't care about anything but his self-identified goal: taking down Catalyst. Apparently he's willing to stoop to ANY level in order to paint management in a poor light.

There's plenty in the letter to disagree with or doubt without racing to the bottom and throwing cheap religious barbs about, if one is so inclined.

That is the part that has me scratching my head. What, exactly, makes any of us more than spectators? Some of us didn't get paid on time - fair enough. But the rest of the people behind the comments?

Cent13

Less "tolerated" and more "we don't want to get banned for talking about it any more."

My logic on all this, for what it's worth, is that Catalyst has put out some good Shadowrun books. I'm also waiting for some more good Shadowrun books that were promised. Given what has happened, my ideal situation would be for the wrong-doers to have to repay the money taken in short order and CGL to get back on its feet asap and give me and everyone else more good books. The problems are two-fold. The first is that Frank says CGL wont be able to do this due to the extent of the problem. If that is so, then we have a problem. I don't know whether this is so or not, though Frank is usually good on this sort of thing so I take it seriously. What is definite is that CGL has lost people like Adam Jury, Robert Derie and others, noteable ones of which say they wont work for CGL again whilst Loren Coleman is there. Randall's letter strongly suggests that Coleman might not be going anywhere. This definitely is a serious issue imo, because the core of Shadowrun is not the owners, but the writers. Given that it seems CGL has cut it off from a serious amount of talent (and ready to print work), and on the understanding that this talent (and ready to print work) would be available to the next licence holders, by new ideal situation is for a quick transfer to a new company that will harness that talent. It's not my ideal option, because there is uncertainty in any transition. But it is my best option as far as I can see. Hints and suggestions from some imply that there might be a party in the wings ready to take on this role. Frank's open intention appears to be to raise this matter, burst the blister so to speak, so that in a couple of months when the licence comes up for renewal, such a transfer can quickly happen. I don't like to see malfeasance rewarded. And when you're in the middle of the river and you need to get to land, you can row in either direction. but it's best if everyone rows in the same direction. Given some of the people that I consider to be the best contributors to the game are heading for the other bank, and given the one we came from seems to be burning, I can only really hope that we reach the other bank quickly and that it turns out as nice as some are telling me it will be.

K.

Oy. Thank you for saying this heaps better than I did. It needed saying - not just the part about Frank, but the part about his behavior being tolerated.

Thank you, sir!

Cent13

The NDAs for most of the freelancers probably cover "don't tell anyone that Nadja Davier is really Lofwyr in disguise" sort of stuff. And "don't tell people about the Shadowrun Swimsuit Edition we have scheduled for June" sort of thing.

I doubt it covers not saying that they haven't been paid or that they've left the company on ethical grounds, etc.

K.

Knasser,



All the ones that I have ever signed do.

The excerpt of the NDA that Jason posted definitely suggests the person who leaked the email in question was in breach, however. Even if they didn't post it, they shared it with an outside party(Frank).

I fail to see how the board is "tolerating" the anti-religious comments made. Numerous members have denounced the comments made, and as explained in "CGL Thread 2" the moderators have issued warnings (of which Frank has quite a collection) and may yet issue suspensions (which wouldn't be a first for Frank either). You guys are brand new and apparently appalled that the mods aren't banning people left and right? Have you considered there is a whole spectrum of speech between "tolerance" and censorship that the mods have to navigate every day?

I have seen that in the past with other fans of other games. It is a concept among folks in the middle class in Western societies that the customer is always right. 'What the fans want' includes their peace of mind in the aggregate and assurance that they 'matter' to the producers of the game. The only pressure they bring to bear is the power of the dollar, and that only works if everyone is onboard. Most of the time, they aren't, despite the impassioned harangues on this and other forums.

Someone please let me know when a sense of moral outrage on the part of a gamer - or even a group of gamers - ever affects the outcome of a gaming company's financial problem. You and I don't matter anywhere near as much as some of us like to believe - which I believe explains the royal 'we' used so often by some indignant personalities on this forum.

This business of the 'outraged gaming community' is so much puffery. That chimera does not exist and never has.

Cent13

Call me naive, but when you warn someone and they do the exact same thing a few hours later, do you believe your response was effective? I'm not appalled that the first comment was made; I'm perturbed the mods failed to stand by the rules the second time around.

You have a point. Personally, I expected expunging of the offending post (and a comment regarding it from the mods), but more importantly, I expected the lines between what was permitted on this private board and what was not to be clear enough - and clearly understood - that the mods could swing into action a whole lot faster than they did.

Several people HAVE come to the fore, denouncing as they go, and in far better terms than I did (or could). But I didn't notice them when I stopped by, and that was the 'tolerance' part - the time delay before someone got around to nerfing the thread. That, and Frank coming around again and again, seemingly immune to restrictions placed on the rest of us. Oh, he's a real rebel, that Frank. Could it be that the delay was caused by a lingering admiration for his brass balls?

One hopes not.

Cent13

Just in case you aren't aware of it, you're talking about me in the above, because the comment you're extending was a direct comment to my post. What I said, is not what the person you're quoting thinks I said and which you appear to have accepted. I reject people saying others shouldn't feel anything they want to feel about what's happened on the grounds that someone else may have lost more. For one, I don't know anything about these people's personal circumstances, what they have made from the company or what they stand to lose. For two, my actual point was that those that stand to lose the most are the community as a whole. If several thousand people had their little fingers cut off and one person got their arm cut off, it would not be a valid statement to say the greatest loss is that of one person. There is great harm across the whole community and everyone of us has every right to care about the game as much or as little as we choose. It sounds rather sanctimonious to look down at people for caring and condescending to say it's an attitude you've commonly found in middle class Western societies.

Is there something wrong with caring about a game that you enjoy a lot and have invested a lot of time in? If not, is there anything wrong with being angry about people who through apparent greed risk taking it away from all of us? If not, is it your attitude that people should just shrug and say "I have no right to complain" and walk away? If so, then what is your stake in this thread, exactly?

K.

And another thing...

According to the story so far, Coleman and Co. wound through about $850 thou in three years. Some of this came from grossly under-reporting income at conventions. If that can be substantiated - if it isn't a bit of wishful thinking on someone's part - I should think the Internal Revenue Service will come down on Mister Coleman a hell of a lot harder than Catalyst Game Labs ever could.

How are Mister and Missus Coleman going to pay back CGL while they are paying back the IRS in massive back taxes?

Cent13

Ah, yes, if nothing else can, Taxes will get you.
See Al Capone. You know, that IS a good question.

I'm ambiguous about the leaking of the letter. On the one hand I like it when my curosity is satisfied; on the other I don't think it was the right thing to do.


As I'm reading the leaks and press statements and so forth I've seen so far, I'm inclined to think the following:
- CGL isn't happy about the situation, and wants and needs the money back
- CGL doesn't want long and costly lawsuits
- Coleman doesn't want to get sued for embezzlement, which would hurt him in a later career
- CGL prefers to get the money back rather than to punish Coleman

As long as they're calling it an "accidental commingling of private and company funds", it's something that can be dealt with in-house. If you openly call it theft, you have little choice but to sue. A certain amount of diplomatic language keeps the way open to settle the matter less painfully.
Of course, not everyone is likely to agree with that course of action; some people's outrage will understandably be too great for that.

I hope it's like that. All in all CGL did a pretty good job; it might not be without flaws, but it's still a very nice product. And I deeply resent that this will delay the Corporate Guide.

No. Carrying on about it world without end and tearing other folks down over it, that's the part that's wrong.



No. Except no one has taken anything from you at all. Not your money, not your precious hobby, nor your health. Your time, maybe, but hey, you volunteered that.



Well, no. Actually, I expect most of them to just shrug and say "I have no real effect on the outcome of this event for good or ill, so I will move on to things which are more important and, more importantly, things I can change." And then walk away.



I would appear to have none, outside of waking up and feeling condescending and sanctimonious this morning. My, such big words! Did you get those on sale? Can I keep them? One of them has five syllables and I need that for my Word Yahtzee collection.

Cent13

Please direct any more issues you have with the moderation over here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry906865

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the apparent original intent of this series of threads has been to inform the general Shadowrunning public of what is going on with the company that makes their games, and perhaps to prompt discussion of it. The responses from Catalyst, the line developer, and the freelancers have pretty much all been directed toward answering, as best as they are willing, the issues brought up by that first post and subsequent developments. Carrying on about it? Well, regrettably this isn't an issue that is just going to go away, though you are more than welcome to choose to ignore it. Tearing people down? I would agree personal attacks are uncalled for - and while I'm still fairly bitter at some individuals (Jason Hardy in particular has gotten an extra dose of my acidity on other threads), I don't pretend it is right of me or anyone else to stoop to insults. Like, oh, your last post there.


Uh...some of us have had things taken from us by this course of events, since several of the freelancers are directly affected by Coleman's financial mismanagement. On the whole, and you may disagree with me on this, but I think the quality of the game will suffer if products are brought out without the contribution of Adam Jury, Jennifer Harding, and the other seasoned freelance writers.


Deep breaths, mann. You're not going to win any arguments that way.

I'm reminded of an old saying... "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead".

Anyway NDAs are funny things... They don't cover up illegal activities. Remember that whistle-blower for Phillip-Morris years ago? He violated his NDA, because his employers were misrepresenting facts publicly. He was put through hell for it, but he legally didn't exactly do anything wrong. While whoever leaked the letter probably should have fessed up to it, it's folly to assume that with this much bad blood floating around (up to and including yanking published books due to payment issues) the letter would stay confidential.

Make no mistake. If several of the freelancers are to be believed, CGL *has* broken the law by failing to pay them, and the NDA wouldn't impose on them the requirement to suppress this fact. In fact, CGL might have violated state labor laws in such a scenario, as well as federal laws since almost assuredly in this scenario the events happened over state lines. I had an NDA and a non-competition agreement with former employers, and they tried to sue me when they failed to pay me for a month and I proceeded to start my own business and certain clients came of their own volition to me. My lawyer quickly pointed out that the NDA didn't cover forcing me to remain quiet about illegal activities. I simply needed evidence that could stand up in court. Their failure to pay me was ample evidence. They backed down after a letter explained this to them.

Please note that I'm not formally accusing CGL of breaking the law. I'm saying that *if* certain freelancers are accurate about their situation, laws may have been broken, putting the NDA in a legal gray area. I know this from experience. If there are outstanding pay issues, CGL should thank it's lucky stars the freelancers aren't running to the labor board to get their money. Those penalties are... severe... One person six months past pay date could easily put a small to moderate company under due to interest and penalties alone.

Anyway... My original thoughts...

Having owned my own business, I can attest that it is nigh-on-impossible to "accidentally" mingle company money with a private account. There are a handful of scenarios I can envision, but none that would sustain a 3 year "accident". In fact, I wonder how a real accountant or bookkeeper could miss this for so long. Hell, even a 100 dollar copy of Quickbooks would go out of it's way to point out such an error, and a properly set up excel spreadsheet would do the same with little more effort. The only way this wouldn't *immediately* become apparent in the books after a month or two is if A) the bookkeeper was in on it, or B) whoever was "co-mingling" the money was falsifying transactions to make the discrepancy look legitimate. Remember: There were at least 2 fiscal years where the books were reviewed (tax time) and it was *not* noticed.

I noticed in various sources that publicly, the word "accident" is used, and more internally, the word "mistake" is used. They sound similar, but the former indicates that the event was unintentional. The latter opens up the possibility of an intentional act. If I drink and drive it's a terrible "mistake". I still intentionally drank, and then intentionally drove.

Am I splitting hairs? Yes. But at this point that's what I have to go on. Language is traditionally very revealing when you pay attention to word choice and *how* people say things. They split hairs in their head to remain on the brighter side of gray.

Then he just should shut his mouth. He prone to be at the defence of Topps. Topps is a big enough corp to defend it self. CGL must be giving Topps frequent report of their actions. So if Topps knows about it already and let them go with the licences then it means that Topps did not lose their trust in CGL. Topps is a big corp so they don't need a College student on gov loans (That live under the taxes of the people working around him), to defend them.

All Frank has to do is

A) Prove that he himself wasn't under an NDA when he posted the letter

and

B) Show that he wasn't lying concerning the contents of that letter. Which could be as easy as showing that he passed the letter on unedited, or as complicated as gaining access to pertinent information concerning CGL's financial solvency, airing all their dirty laundry as public record.

CGL would be insane to sue him. They have everything to lose by making any of this occur in court. Frank strikes me as the type that is stubborn enough to see a court case through just to wipe mud on CGL's face.

So the basic thrust of what you're saying is to cartoon people angry about this as carrying on as if the world is going to end so you can say they care too much. To say that no-one has taken anything from us, ignoring that (a) they might well have done seeing as books we looked forward to are now in jeopardy and some books we might have wished to purchase are currently withdrawn from sale in addition to some of our community actually being owed money by CGL and (b) our concerns are rather obviously about what this means for the future of the game.

Basically, it is as I say, you're posting just to mock people for caring more than you think they should. Well perhaps I think you care too much about what other people care about. You could heed some of your own advice and go on to things you feel are more important. At least if we post because we care about the game, that's better than posting to say how strongly you don't care, surely?




If you think 'condescending' is a big word you have other problems. But I'm afraid it's the best one I could think of to describe a post that mocked people for having middle class western attitudes. I don't know what you think you know of my background or my life or my work. But what I choose to do with my free time is my choice and I rightly object to anyone telling me that I should go and do something more important. You've just registered at this forum - post count of 15 at the time of writing, so why are you busy telling people on the main Shadowrun forums not to get worked up about things that affect Shadowrun. I repeat, it's not for you to tell people what they should and shouldn't care about.

And it's particularly childish to go on a rant about whether you can keep their big words for Yahtzee. I don't know what audience you think you're talking to, but I assure you anyone whose survived any of the weekly RAW wars here on Dumpshock (and that's most of us, except those who just registered like you), are well-practiced at seeing the difference between crude put downs and actual points. Your style of argument would probably fare better on different forums. Unless your aim is simply to insult me, in which case, well done you.

K.

He's not defending Topps, he's got an axe to grind against CGL. He knows Topps is a gargantuan corporation who is mainly interested in profit. He hopes to contribute to an environment where Topps realizes that the easiest and quickest way to profit off of Shadowrun and Battletech is to sell the licenses to a new company and pull the pipeline over to the new company, thereby sinking CGL.

To be fair he needs to be careful. That kind of stated malice *can* get you in trouble. Even if he is using the truth as his weapon. You play that kind of thing down when you have the "moral authority" of the truth on your side.

Though as was pointed out, collecting against him would be difficult at best.

He is not, that's why he did send it. But the one who sent it to him was. So Troll became complice of the infringement and complice at crime is still being criminal. Yes NDA infringement is a crime. It's breaking a contract.

You know, I have a beautiful sea-side property in Salt Lake City...

1- He did say that.
2- He may have the truth, it doesn't give him right to infringe the NDA for the one who forwarded the email.
3- Did he ask Topps if they knew about it ?
4- Can he keep his time to study and make the government loan of his useful to his life and now waste his time to defend a company that doesn't need his help at all !

If this is the case, I have a question... Don't these companies do *inventory*???

Most business I have worked for or with do a visual inventory 2-3 times a year for this specific reason.

And why should he do that? Because you don't like what he says?
Not that I like his manners, or the fact that he cannot keep his opinions seperated from facts (something Randall Bills aparently is better at), but the info he has given was accurate and certainly valueable to me as a fan of Shadowrun. Yep, nobody has the obligation to give us this intel - which is why I appreciate it even more.



And what does his occupation actually have to do with this?

Nice for you ...

He should use his time to study. The tax payers pays him to go to school then he should make them proud and study hard to become someone and then he can try to defend a corp that doesn't need help.

See my above post about the NDA and legality. The NDA can't cover up illegal activities in itself. CGL might have/probably has broken the law in regards to said freelancer, throwing the NDA out the window. Besides, maybe they accidentally sent it to someone or gave someone access to it who is no longer under their NDA, and *that* person leaked it (as some insiders have posted might very well be the case). In that respect, it makes your argument completely void.

Again, CGL is welcome to pursue legal action. It will destroy their reputation completely however I imagine, because that puts them in a legal obligation to discuss the issue in a court setting. No spin, under oath, and in the public record.

You know, personal attacks like you've been making...

You're becoming hypocritical. Maybe it'd be prudent for you to take your own advice and remain quiet.

It appears that the one lacking perspective here is not the community, some members of which have been buying Shadowrun products for more than 20 years (which is roughly 7 times longer than CGL has existed, if we're talking about perspective here), but yourself.
And yes, the only things that make licenses like SR valuable, and companies like CGL viable are fan communities, who pay money for the product. Surprisingly enough.
That's pretty much why you don't solve crises things like this behind the scenes, once the info has leaked - not to loose the fan support.


Also, you folks are surely "keeping the discussion civil". Well, if you consider personal attacks to be civil, of course.

Trollman is a big boy so he don't need a [whatever you are] to tell him what to do.

And seriously, studends do have free time. Like the time we spend to play RPGs.

Get a job, hippie!

I'm just channeling my anger on him ... I'm angry about something else. But still blackmailling is bad. He did and it's not nice from him.

EDIT: Last post on that subject ;P

Good morning Mr. Personal Attack. I'm Mr. Sarcastic-Mod-Running-Out-Of-Patience. Have we met before?

I have one...with a bunch of NDAs



And where the bloody hell did Frank blackmail anyone?

It's Irish blackmail - they release the confidential information first, just to show you they're not kidding.

K.

If the laws actually work this way, then the laws need some changing.
If I am forbidden from telling YOU something, then by doing so I am breaking a CONTRACT, not a Law, mind you.
If then YOU decide to tell the information YOU got from ME to someone else, YOU are NOT breaking any contract if you are not under a similar contract to me and/or the entity who originally gave the information TO ME.
Much less a law.

. . ooowww . . o.o
Carefull there, another heavy dose like that and you could start a singularity like that ^^

I think this sums things up pretty well. Most of the content was already known or deduced by the people here. It seems like the intent of whoever leaked it is to do harm.

The letter indicates that Randal has been in the driver's seat for the process of sorting things out. I'm a pretty ration-over-religion guy, but I also follow Battletech, and at least on the Battletech side, where Randal has been 'The Man', he has a track record of getting things done and doing them well. Since Randal's focus has been on Battletech all these years, I can kind of see how some of this stuff could have slipped by him as co-owner.

Really, ever since the hints about this letter got out in the previous thread run, I was waiting for Frank to post the full content. He's been pretty reliable in having the inside scoop on what's going on, with the original post, his knowledge about several SR books being yanked, and now this letter. I still don't know the accuracy of his numbers in the original post, but if they are accurate, that suddenly leaves a very short list for where he may be getting his information from.



So yeah, it sounds like a very short list.

BTW, part of the knee-jerk reaction to Frank's posting shows the difference in how pleased BT fans/freelancers are with how BT has been handled, as opposed to how displeased some SR fans/freelancers are. No BT freelancers have stepped forward to complain about pay owed, nor have they withheld anything yet, to my knowledge. Don't know if it means BT freelancers were getting paid when SR freelancers weren't, or if Randal has managed to keep them appeased. I've said before, my impression on Dumpshock vs. CBT boards (and yes, the CBT board is official, DS isn't), is that BT fans are much, much happier with where BT is today because of Catalyst. I'm not saying this to excuse anything, just to point out to anyone who expresses a desire to see Catalyst burn that Shadowrun isn't the only thing effected by it, and there are a lot of very happy BT fans out there who are definitely wanting Catalyst to pull through.

Hmm, sounds like a plan