last i heard, computer-based character generation was a legal grey area because microsoft owns the digital rights for shadowrun which may or may not include programs that allow you to create characters for the pen and paper RPG.

IANAL, but i doubt it would really hold up in court personally... but microsoft could certainly tie it up for long enough if they wanted to that it would in the end not make much of a difference. of course, there's no way of knowing if microsoft would want to, so who knows?

I would strongly recommend not looking to Rick Raisley (the Heavy Metal Pro guy) to give app support. Let me be clear, I respect the heck out of Rick's work, and have bought all the various HM products over the years. But the fact that Rick has long been a single guy working on the projects (I believe he's starting to get some outside help now), along with a number of interfering real life issues (which definitely take priority), have left him extremely behind. As in, as a fan's opinion only, I strongly feel he has a greater chance of a vaporware schedule than even CGL at this point. I truly hope that Rick gets his ducks all lined up, and we see a new HM version. But for now, he's been quickly outpaced by fan based projects like MegaMekLab and SolarisSkunkWerks. So much so, that MML (a fan based production) is being used by CGL to produce the official record sheets for Battletech, rather than using the program developed by the guy who has the official license to make such software.

You have some things backwards here -- Shadowrun was licensed to FanPro LLC *before* BattleTech was. At Gen Con 2001, FanPro had just released Year of the Comet for Shadowrun, but the BattleTech license stuff was yet to be finalized.

Heh, Quality Work allways finds someone who wants it and hopefully someone who is able to pay for it too ^^

I can understand that you want to get paid for your work, but...
1.) The work was already done.
2.) Terminating the contract insures that you won't get paid (zero chance of getting paid).
3.) There might be a small chance that you would get paid for the work if you didn't terminate your contract (the chance would be bigger then zero).
4.) Now someone needs to do the work again, delaying production, and that hurts the fans.
5.) Releasing the work anyway might get you into some serious legal trouble.

I can understand why you terminated the contract, it's the principle of the thing, but it hurts everyone. In business, if you continue to get paid (even if there's a small chance), you need to swallow your pride more often.

As I think about it, what will most likely happen is that we'll make announcements as books go back on sale or new books are released. I'm not sure if such announcements will contain specific references to freelancers being paid, but as you see those announcements, you'll know that's happened.

Jason H.

When I put together the content specs for Runner's Toolkit, I came up with the idea of a series pre-generated plug-and-play themed character (as in skill) and gear kits - something like the kits I mentioned a while back that my group uses to accelerate chargen (during one of my famous bouts with Cain). I wanted something like that which would speed up the two most time-consuming aspects of character creation (skill acquisition and picking gear).

Of the proposals I got back Bobby's with his concept of a Tier creation system was the coolest, but I thought it was too involved for the Toolkit and I wanted something more focused. The result we hammered out, a middleground alternative that met my desire for customizability and speed, and had some of the versatility Bobby wanted with his tier system is/was PACKs. Bobby then set to work (and hard work it was) devising and calculating dozens of different themed "profiles" and kits", and he turned in an impressive selection.

These kits include pregenerated skills and gear with relevant BP cost and nuyen costs, they were calculated/created so that you could drop/add/replace/raise/lower ratings of elements of each kit without having to recalculate the whole and they would allow both GMs and PCs to build characters that much faster.

Bobby, if you can't find your Tier material I still have your proposal on file. Drop me a line if you need it.


All I will say about this is that Catalyst indicated it wasn't satisfied with certain aspects of my performance and commitment as Line Developer and I felt I was unable to give them (the company) what they wanted, the way they wanted it. So I stepped down. So in a very real sense it was my choice.

And the Synner delivers tha paydata O.o

Wait, what? Are you arguing with me or agreeing with me? Did you think my post was somehow directed at your stance or you personally? As far as I knew, I was just breaking my own weak willed stance on lurking and sharing my own humble opinion on the situation as a lost future sale for some fictional entertainment.

Try to follow with me for a second, I take posts I see with a grain of salt, so FT's original post 3 threads back now was just "a friendly bird chirped in my ear", so I treated it as a unconfirmed source. Then others started posting, who are confirmed as being freelancers and who confirm not being paid as SOP in the past and this appears to be happening again.

Right then and there, 3 threads back, I let myself continue to ponder the situation and see how things unfolded, but already the conclusion to no longer purchase CGL products was forming in my mind ... "But won't that in turn hurt the freelancer if Almanac doesn't sell a copy to me?" I thought to myself. So, wait and see, let my patience grow thin, as I waited for what I hoped would be an announcement, from say JM Hardy, saying the freelancers had been paid monies owed and then confirmed by freelancers, "Yay, crisis averted!" But no, some odd thread disappearance and a leaked CGL to freelancer letter later and a plainly irate/irritated JM Harding and Ancient History just firmed my own personal resolution.

What the leaked CGL to Freelancers letter did for me was just give a picture to me of a man who was trying to explain away that he had been long term conned by his friend and partner and was continuing to be conned and in turn trying to pass that buck on to the freelancers by stringing them along for as long as possible with what I see as being empty promises of a payday they are already owed. Not inspiring any confidence in me as a customer as to CGL's ability to continue producing quality entertaining fiction, let alone deal equitably with those who develop that entertainment.

Again, didn't pipe any sooner because I felt "lurker" because of a failed attempt at bolstering my own desire for Shadowrun fan fiction with Mr. Fixer Job Board and that waiting to see if the freelancers would be paid in what I consider from my own work experience to be an allowable amount of time to wait for a late paycheck before walking off the job site and looking for other work. I would not want to be treated in my own workplaces the way the SR freelancers have been treated.

Specifically on Ancient History, I thought originally upon arriving here s/he was just a really dedicated fan with a wealth of knowledge on their shelf and willing to share it with others like myself who are new to SR or even just younger, he gets my utmost respect for that alone. To learn his involvement with a product I was waiting for just kind of blew my mind, their name through their generous words carries enough cache with me that the product is devalued without their work attached to the product. For CGL to not only lose AH but actively edge them out of the process is just a symptom of a greater problem that comes from the top down, IMHO.

Be careful that your damage control doesn't negate the effort of making good on your commitment as a publisher. Bad things happened, don't let CGL try to down play it too much or they'll come off looking like they aren't willing to accept guilt. That just seems like a cover up no matter how many other documents talk about clearing up the situation. You'll also get that much more flak from Dumpshock and no one wants that.

I understand your point and will keep it in mind, but as I've mentioned before, I have many concerns to juggle, and the amount of flak I get on Dumpshock is only one of them--and not even the most important one.

Jason H.

They wanted product freely given before delivering a contract? I don't think so. If that sort of behavior existed at any company I was working for / thinking of working for, I'd quit / leave. Morals and ethics on my part would demand no less.

Okay, spin it this way... Company makes a bad decision. Employee disagrees with decision. Employee brings up reasons why decision is bad / unethical / whatever in Employee's opinion. This means the decision violates the employee's sense of ethics. Company refuses to change decision. Employee walks. Result? Company made an environment that violated the Employee's sense of ethics which forced the Employee to choose to between employment and ethics.

In a nutshell, as far as that employee would be concerned, the Company forced them out by violating the Employee's sense of ethics. Some could even say it was a hostile work environment due to the perceived ethics clash.

For the record, I nearly quit my company when they tied acknowledgement of training to a requirement to waive constitutionally protected rights guaranteed to US Citizens. I protested (along with a sizable number of others in the company) and we forced company legal to back down. Ethics are a major component of the lives of some people.

I believe in doing the right, proper, and ethical thing. I expect it of my friends, associates, and anyone else that interacts with my daily life. Those who cannot or will not act / behave in an ethical manner, I exclude from my life and actively oppose where possible.

Boo Jason! Boo!

Thanks Jason. That's more than fair. Although, I have no idea if this was affected by the whole mess or not, but hopefully this is good news? I did get my copy of Dawn of the Artifacts: Midnight and the reprinted TRO:3060 today from the Battleshop. So...yay for hopefully new product?

I've tried to keep a chipper mood about this whole thing. But if someone is not being paid for their work, there are plenty of writer beware sites on the Internet to legitimately complain. An NDA should not prohibit someone from telling other writers about problems.

Anyway, I hope CGL does the right thing, and that's what I am waiting for. They haven't lost me yet, but I doubt I will ever submit content to them. So do the right thing, so I can buy some new Shadowrun books.

More like "willful violation of copyright" since, as I understand the situation, Jennifer Harding has pulled her copyrights until her outstanding payments are settled.

It was a mistake that has been remedied. Should be moot shortly, though.

Jason H.

It sounds like the current system wasn't just written by AH, but also based heavily on concepts he came up with himself. I'm kind of curious how CGL will rewrite PACKs without using those ideas.

I'll have to dig out my copy of the playtest document and read through it again...

You can't copyright an idea, only the means in which that idea is presented. And even then, only the specific means in which that idea is presented. It wouldn't be a problem at all, especially for something as relatively trivial simple to describe as a new character creation method.

Eve if Dumpshock doesn't represent all the Shadowrun fans, it represents a large enough percentage that CGL cannot afford to ignore it. Synner even said that Line Developers past have mined Dumpshock fir freelancer talent. IIRC, that's how Frank Trollman and AH became freelancers in the first place.


Your memory does not serve. Initially, I was one of the biggest proponents of SR4. What soured me on the project is a matter of public record, which you can read if you want to go digging through the DUmpshock records of the time.


Yes, they are doing the mature and responsible thing by withholding copyright. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Being mature and responsible means you stand up for yourself. Being a doormat is not the same thing as being mature.


You've just described being forced out for ethical reasons. Now, we don't know if more pressure was applied to the three or not; but at the very minimum, they chose their own personal ethics over a game they love. That indicates that the ethical conflict must have been *extreme*.


Despite our many bouts, I do feel bad about this. I don't think it was entirely your choice, though. When you're given two bad choices, it's not fair to claim that you made a bad choice willingly.


In that case, both Synner and myself have claim to the concepts behind PACKS. Since the concept of a modular character system originated with us, I wonder if I can sue to have PACKS yanked in its entirety.

Nope. Can't copyright an idea, I'm afraid. You could try patenting it (a la Wizards or Looney), but I don't think any of those patents have been challenged yet, and I believe you'll find plenty of prior art. Unless you actually wrote what they're using, the best you can do is demand it be yanked without the support of law (which would give CGL the right to chuckle at you patronizingly, I believe).

Yeah I think suing is a little extreme.

That leaves fanfic.

Actually, and this is funny, but I didn't even know about your system until it was pointed out to me after the first draft of PACKS was in.

You know, one of the more painful things about reading these posts is hearing about all the cool things that could have been.

Well, I don't think anybody mentioned that it would be ignored (though I could have missed that elsewhere in the past threads). It also doesn't mean that just because some of the members (or even a majority) of Dumpshock wants something, that CGL (or any company for that matter) will listen. Though I think it's a pretty good indicator with Mr. Hardy's continued posting that he's certainly willing to hear the ideas. No guarantees on what the decision regarding those ideas are. You may (or may not) like the result.

I think any online community like this becomes insular to some degree, no matter the size. Because of the frequent interactions, getting to know people's tastes or styles over time, eventually, that group becomes your representation of whatever group they are a part of. It doesn't really mean they're a significant representation though, or even a statistically important one. (They certainly could be. I have no ideas of what the numbers of DS members to SR players are.) I'd suggest the best thing is to consider them a group like any other, no more or less significant.

I was joking guys.

But seriously, this only goes to show how much Dumpshock affects Shadowrun. If ideas and plans we made here end up in print, CGL cannot afford to ignore what goes on here.

500+ posts in 2 days??? Where do you find the time??

I wanted to read up on all the drama and it's just way too overwhelming...

And is it just me, or is it really awkward when you see JH and AH going at it, without actually looking at each other?

I wouldn't say its awkward, but its defently something I would be happy to see them resolve (either off or or dump).
But unfortunately that may never happen due to how things unfolded.

I agree, both good peeps that do great work. I hate seeing people with common goals and passions be set against each other mostly because of other's wrong-doing.

I hope all of you will be able to work it out in the end, ultimately it's up to you guys though.

Right now I'm really hoping someone writes a pregen fun based on this situation just for laughs

As mentioned previously we could have

Silence the leak (Freddy Orkson has been spreading paydata around, find his source at all costs)
A long Holiday (Lawrence Cole has been caught with his hands in the till, Someone with more then vested interest wants to see the situationed closed with the boss taking a long holiday in Lagos)

Or on the flip side
Spread the dissent (Can you launch a multipoint Data drop implicating a otherwise innocent CEO just in time for a second team to steal and make public the data)
I'm going out now, I may be sometime (A CEO needs to be extracted from his office based appartment before vengence obsessed fans of his companies hottest IP lynch him for actions real or imagined)

*arches an eyebrow at the PACKs sub-discussion*

Wow...that sounds kind of like how I was going to handle chargen for my next
SR game...Skills for the various districts of seattle, skills for the archetype, a quick
gear selection list appropriate for the basic archetype and sub-archetype(face it, there
is a difference between a Damage-sponge tank sam and an Avoidance tank sam).

It's a work of art in my opinion.

Trouble with the copyright thing is that most of the kits are so tight and well designed there is simply no way you could re-label them or switch out one or two things and claim it was original work. It is going to be so obviously derivative of AH's copyrighted work that the whole kit just has to go in the shredder.

I know almost all of you have posted dozens of characters on DS and I'm pretty sure most of you will agree that, apart from rare exceptions, gear is the most time consuming element of character generation. I reckon the PACKS system must have been between 150 and 300 man hours just to create the templates. All the writing would be extra on top of that.

You could do it in less time than that but it would suck compared to the original. So that's at least a month for a skilled, dedicated professional working full-time plus however long for editing, proofing and play-testing. And then printing and shipping from Timbuktu. If you're lucky you'll have it by Christmas.

Which is funny/sad/aggravating because, frankly, the stuff AH wrote could have been packaged as an e-book like Digital Grimoire and been on sale for six months already. Might even have generated enough cash to finance the whole print-run of Runners Toolkit. It's sure worth paying for.

Indeed. I'm waiting for the cliff notes.

There were some changes from the SR4A PDF to the hardcopy after the 'outrage' at DS.

No one can fault you for putting your family first in your life, Peter. I'd make the exact same decision in your shoes.

Not that I am trying to invalidate your point, but morals and ethics are on the backside of this equation. It is just common sense and good business to protect yourself up front. For both parties BTW, as it can also protect CGl from shenanagins on the part of a freelancer. Having a contract is just simply the way to conduct business. Morals and ethics come into play later, with how a person honors and handles the contract.

I have never performed any freelance writing, but I have done a fair amount of contract work. (I am an electrician) The standard is to be shown a copy of the contract before I submit a bid. I would walk away if anyone balked at this. As such I have never had too much trouble with payment.

As I understand it, copyright in no way respects the amount of work one had to do to develop a product, rather copyright protects originality of expression. You could work for years to develop the perfect game, using neat ideas that no one else had ever thought of, and none of those ideas are copyrightable; nor are the rules themselves. Only your particular descriptions of those rules and ideas may be copyrighted. Names of fictional characters, places things, etc. may also not be copyrighted, though they may be trademarked.

See Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. and U.S. Copyright Office - Games for examples. Another example is that no matter how unusual a font might be, it is not copyrightable (at least in the U.S.)

So Ancient History holds copyright for his description of PACKS, and his descriptions of countries written for SOLA and 6thWA, but he does not own any of the ideas involved. All of the fictional place names, and character names, etc. are protected via Trademark, but in that respect to Topps, licensed to CGL.

I.E. If I rewrote the entire Seattle Sourcebook in my own words, and published it, I would not be violating the copyright of any of the authors, but I would be violating Topps trademarks.

P.S. This should not be taken as a moral opinion on how much (or little) any freelancers work is being rewritten to avoid legal infringement before publication.

That's only half of the picture: Only those that belonged to the shadowrun universe before belong to Topps. Any original character, place, etc. is owned by the author – as is any original story or fact.

So just rewording the latter is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

My understanding is that this is part of the reason that Microsoft went with a setting "re-imagining" for the game done by FASA Studios. Because it's hard to swing an undead Ghoul in SR canon without hitting something that's been added.

It would probably help if you had quoted my whole paragraph there. I wasn't indicated guaranteed lack of change, simply that DS wasn't guaranteed a specific reaction one way or the other (acceptance or ignorance). I think it's pretty clear that DS has had both over the years.

There are no undead Ghouls in Shadowrun.

Metaphorically speaking. But if you want more literal, then pencil in 'Shedim'....which as an addition itself I suppose is more poetic. EDIT: Better yet a Shedim inhabiting a ghoul corpse...so yes, you can have undead ghouls.

You see? That's one of the things I love about Shadowrun--apply yourself, and you can make just about anything happen!

Jason H.

Whilst I agree with that sentiment I did recently create a monster

I made a dragon pig




its not my fault the drake in my group was getting uppity so I turned him into a pig

"If you shapeshift a drake into a pig, and they try to transform...do you get a dragon pig?"
"Common sense says no. Fuck common sense, dragon pigs are awesome."

We didnt test the question to much it was scary enough when I grabbed him by the shoulder and made him shift into a little pink piggy.

On a brighter note he is currently working on a tshirt with the dragon pig on. The design is abit rough at the moment but its across between a easten dragon and a pig, curly tail and all.


He can fry his own bacon

Aaaaaaaaaand Bobby and I find common ground.

Jason H.

Oh dear have I started the end of days?