Depends on how you define theft. As a private company, CGL plays by a different set of rules. Someone mentioned "co-mingling of personal funds". If that is what happened, then it could be that it is not theft, that would depend n a lot of things and I am not a lawyer. In my experience, it would be more likely to be a tax issue, but again, I don't work for the Government.

-M&P

Come on. Lets be honest. It's not a 'tax issue'. Dude took the money and got busted. Money's gone and people aren't getting paid. Throwin' "Tax issue's" into this only obfuscates what really happened.

There's a couple wee misconceptions here I'd like to point out.


The big problem here is that the problems with freelancers have been very long-running - way before the financial mismanagement was "outed," and in some cases going back years.


We already know that the "troublesome owners" aren't neutralized, because Loren's still in charge.

I was thinking about this some more. Are the freelancers that provide fiction to BattleCorps being paid?

That is not the question, the question is what can be proven in a court of law, either criminally or civilly. Tax laws are, historically, the easiest to prove in criminal court. Look at Al Capone for a notorious example.
I agree with what you are saying, my only point is that if you are expecting to see someone in jail, that may not happen, because technically (based on what has been presented), they did not steal anything, they just took more of their share than they were supposed to. This is why tax lawyers get paid what they do, and why things like LLC's exist, because those technicalities are the difference between jail time, and bad business.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is only my opinion.

-M&P

But what we don't know is what that will look like going forward. It is possible that the "new procedures" we hear about will, in effect, neutralize his power while allowing him to repay what he owes from within the structure. He could then be removed by a change in the LLC structure. I've seen that happen before, as it is cleaner from the standpoint of the other owners.

-M&P

I've noticed that comment made throughout. Am I correct in assuming that it was common as far back as FASA? If so, is this common with other RPG's, or just a Shadowrun ownership "curse"?

-M&P

My understanding is very few people, relatively speaking, are being paid at this point, and the BattleTech folks are owed more and for longer periods than the Shadowrun folks. I cannot state unequivocally that is the case, since I don't have CGL's finances, but that is my understanding.


While I have no doubt that the owners hope for Loren to pay it back, my understanding of Loren's position from Randall's letter to the freelancers is that he's not going to be surgically removed from the checkbook anytime soon.

Yes, it has happened as far back as FASA. I don't know the answer to the second part, as I've only written for Shadowrun.

That would require, based on my experience with LLC's, a change in ownership. My guess (based on JHardy's comments) is that the new procedures require all the owners to sign checks, thereby limiting the damage in the short term. Long term, we may see Loren removed after he pays the other owners back. I think the threat of whatever consequences, along with group control over the checkbook and all operations, is what the other owners are hoping will keep him in line and keep TOPPS happy.

I could also be completely wrong.

-M&P

Okay, that is just messed up. My respect for the writers who have contributed to this universe to date continues to grow as more of how the sausage is made is exposed.

-M&P

Can someone help me with the history thingy? I thought Loren started up BattleCorps as a monthly subscription for continued BattleTech fiction. Then, when FanPro died, he started up Catalyst and brought Battletech RPG and Shadowrun RPG under that business. So he still should be seeing cash flow from BattleCorps. Or did that business (InMediaRes) financials get mixed up with Catalysts and his own?

Drek...I said I wasn't going to post anything more on this topic but slot it!!! But your fragging bulldrek of a post forced me to post to give everyone the real paydata. Especially the chummers from overseas who have a different set of biz laws.

LLC: Limited liabilty corporation=partnership with one or more principals. AKA=multiple owners. Not a corporation, not stock, no IPO, and is not traded publicly. Secondly, there are no tax issues as the LLC's income is not taxed. The income the partners get from the LLC (the profits, is)

At worst all the one owner did was break a contract which can be settled via arbitration or lawsuit. The partners chose arbitration. This arbitration may involve a reduced salary, limited share of the profits, or it could convert into a loan to be paid back to the partners. We don't know, and we don't have a right to know since it involves the personal finances of the owners.

Sort of like Aztechnology, which is a private corporation.


PS:Bring back the slang

As colorful as you are, it doesn't change the fact. Try and gloss over it all your want. Call it something else if you want. Cover ass if you want Chummer. But the guy took money that didn't rightfully belong to him. He STOLE IT. He didn't find it in a sack on the street with a dollar sign painted on the side. He went in and took it. He knew it wasn't his. You don't make mistakes to the tune of THOUSANDS of dollars, bottoming out your companies bank account by accident. He knew what he was doing. It takes forethought and will to purposefully steal money like that.

He's a THIEF.

Stealing money is illegal.

He's entered into contracts with people for services. Those people (( the freelancers )) provided their services. Their work was accepted. More over, in many cases it saw print, and made money.

He did not fulfill his end of the contract. He willfully took the money and spent it. This isn't 'oh he just took a bit extra'. He defrauded the company. He embezzled funds. (( as much as you might like to think, partial owners of companies can't just pocket the profits and go blow it on hookers and blow if they want to. There's law to hold them accountable to the company and those they're in contract with.)).

As soon as that work went to print, and hit stores and made a DIME, he's criminally responsible for the actions.


So sit back. Laugh it up and make it sound like dad took the allowance of the money HE made away from his kids.

Truth is he's a thief that stole $1,000s of dollars from hard workin' people. He should be ashamed of himself. And he should do jail time for the crime. Trying to Sugar coat it doesn't change what really happened. These writers aren't pulling the copy write just for shits and giggles. The company was making money off their work and refusing to pay them. Pretty sure that's illegal in some fashion too. (( hince them pulling the copy write till they're paid.)) At the very least, he stole money from the other owners. And put them on the line for the litigation that follows.

Just want to say one thing before people get all pissy again.

Allegedly.....

Remember folks you are innocent until proven guilty in this country. Whether a crime even was committed depends on a lot of facts no one here is even privy to, and whether a person is or is not guilty of alleged crimes(by random internet poster with no info #5) is something I'll leave up to a court of law if it ever reaches one.

InMediaRes Productions, LLC, is the company that Loren co-owns. Catalyst Game Labs is simply a brand name that the company uses for game-related products. BattleCorps is another brand name, for their BattleTech fiction site. Holostreets is ... hey everyone, stop laughing!

Nice one. I thought Catalyst Game Labs was a separate entity. Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, yeah, I remember the Holostreet t-shirts at GEN CON.

I'm pretty sure there is a bylaw somewhere that states that inciting a thread about Holo-{You know what} is a ban-able offense.

*Runs off the check mod bylaws*

What little I've picked up about LLCs (and mind you I am not a lawyer or accountant) indicates that the LLC is considered the private property of the owners. Any taxes are paid by the LLC, so the owners are not double dipped on taxes, and what's left belongs to the owners.

The problem in Catalyst's case is that the account used for CGL's funds was also the personal account of one of the owners, giving one of the owners an inordinate amount of access to those funds.

When the LLC was established there would have been a contract established dictating how that pool of funds was to be divided among the owners.

Because the distribution of those funds was not in accordance to the contract, it's a contractual dispute among the owners. It's up to them whether to take up the matter legally.

While the payment to freelancers was likely impacted by the misappropriation of funds, they also have a contract with CGL as an entity, not with the specific owner at fault. Those contracts apparently stipulate payment 30 days after publishing. Since the material being paid for is written, copyrightable work, the easiest avenue for freelancers to pursue is to withhold copyright until paid. In the cases where this has been used, CGL has appeared to make a good-face effort to stop sales of the material involved. If they hadn't stopped sales, it would have made a good case for the freelancer to legally pursue them on copyright infringement, as it would have been a very blatant act at that point.

According to Frank's original post, CGL lost a total of $850,000 over three years from various sources. Take that number with a grain of salt; Frank has proved himself reliable, but we don't know where he got those numbers from. Jennifer Harding has hinted that Franks's numbers are correct; but again, that's not a verifiable fact.

As for why Loren isn't in jail, you need the other owners of IMR to agree to sue. At least one, Randall Bills, has stated that he instead chooses to stand by his friend. We don't know what the other owners think, or if they even have the ability to vote Loren out. They may feel that t he best way to get their money back is to work with Mr. Coleman.

I'm glad someone posted this so i didn't have to, furthermore do you know that the catch and punishment rate on murder is only about 60% and is substantially lower for non violent crime, so the chances of a theoretical perpetrator seeing the inside of a theoretical cell for embezzlement is rather low. Keep dreaming though.

Suing would be civil litigation, separate from criminal litigation.

I have no idea what you think the statistics for an unrelated type of crime have to do with the situation at hand (well no, that's a lie, I can fairly well intuit your intention, your quoted stats for murder just have bupkis to do with embezzlement or fraud). I would also remind you that by CGL's own press statement it's been admitted that there was financial mismanagement at the top. The only question remains the criminality of it.

Lots of people in the gaming industry are not professionals. This includes the people running the company. And most gaming companies are tiny. I think Chaosium had 6 employees at it's peak. GDW about the same. HERO maybe 6 at most. West End and TSR were both decently sized and fairly professionally managed - but you'll notice they both both blew up and sank, iirc over cash flow.

Putting out product takes money and very few RPG companies can get bank loans to do that. Licenses are even worse - as there is a lot of money and control issues that go along. The old James Bond from Avalon Hill, where AH could never get the final approval from the license holder to put out new products.

Most people whould say murder is fairly serious and it only sees a conviction 60% of the time, but you likely figured that, as far as the criminality of it there may effectively be none.

I'm not a lawyer and I was only nominally a cop, however in order to make a criminal complaint stick you have to have a harmed party to file and then enough follow through to convince the actions weren't just mismanagement but criminal.

The standard of proof for murder and the extent which people hide from prosecution, and pay to get off and number of technicality's and such pertaining to murder are also higher.

It's pretty simple to go 'Company took in X amount last quarter. Accused Salary is Y. the totals in the account do not equal X-Y. There for accused is responsible for the difference between X-Y and what's actually there. Especially when it's been admitted in public and there's lines of people waiting to get paid. This isn't Russia in the 80s.

Really? Have you successfully tried such a case involving an LLC with a small pool of owners? Or tried any case or even been closely involved personally in a criminal justice proceeding? Admission of mismanagement is not the same as admission of theft young padawan.

Isn't the really serious crime the fraud though? I may be misremembering, and it may have been a third party, but I thought the whole thing was being done by labeling some home building contractors as "freelance writers" and paying them with company funds.

That's the rumor. We also have a person saying that the house was free of renovations as of last summer.

That is a claim that has not been stated anywhere that I know of. Besides, do you think that the Operations Manager
would have cut a check for something more then any freelancer would likely be paid for a given contract?

Thing is, ultimately, we will never know EVERYTHING that was going on. Unless charges are filed, and things
go to court, and the court records remain un-sealed, there is likely no way we will know the exact degrees of
what was going on.

That's a false argument. Are you a judge? Are you a lawyer? Have you passed the bar in the state in question? No. You're a layman same as me.

I'm a guy that has grown up in the US and goes 'If ya took money that wasn't yours.. and spent it, and it was owed to others for work they did ... you stole it."

Doesn't take me trying cases to know an illegal act when I see one. Trying to mire it in word games and such doesn't change the fact that the guy took money he knew full well wasn't his and spent it or hid it. That's not legal. Say 'oh it was company funds" or 'Multiple owners gross" or what ever. He took what wasn't his to take, and spent it. That's not legal. I'm ___Not___ a lawyer. I'm sure one that has passed the Bar in the state would know to call it "Embezzlement" or 'Grand theft" or 'Criminal misappropriation of company funds" or what ever.

My point is. Dude stole thousands of bucks. He should do jail time.

Will he? Probably not. Same and worse happened at Palladium years ago and they're still bitching about it. Only got a small percentage of reimbursement. But trying to play word games and toss up straw men doesn't change the fact that the money's gone and it was in one guy's account.

Supposedly.
(( I am a firm believer in innocent till proven guilty. But going off the information at hand. Dude looks guilty))

The LLC is owned, in part, by Coleman. Taking money out of the company is at best contract breach, which isn't a crime. The co owners have chosen not to sue Coleman at this time. There might be issues with taxes, but proving that there was criminal intent is rather difficult, generally the IRS would rather make a deal with you (were you pay the money owed) then see you go to jail.

A company as a legal entity is generally formed to isolate owners from liability, how much liability generally depends on the legal entity and the location where it was registered. The whole issue of not paying suppliers might just end at the company, it might not, I don't know enough about US regulations and laws to make any guess about that.

Keep in mind that what you might consider stealing for one person isn't stealing for another. If you take a Shadowrun book without paying from the game store, it is stealing. If the owner did the same thing, it wouldn't be stealing. If an employee took it, it would depend on what the owners policy is.

@Pepsi Jedi: For someone that is breaking Trademark law, on no less then two large properties, you seem to have a healthy grasp of legalese [/sarcasm]. What your talking about is right and wrong, those aren't exactly legal concepts. A certain Redneck approach of "Let's hang him bro/dad!" isn't exactly helpful, and to be honest comes across as trolling/flaming.

You didn't answer my question, have you personally and directly been involved in a criminal proceeding? How did it turn out for you? Was the accused convicted and did they serve jail time? From your statements I'm going to hazard a guess that the answer to all of these is no. I am not claiming to be a judge or a lawyer and I havn't claimed to be, what I did not do was state the following.



You made a black and white unambiguous statement without a shred of proof or first hand knowledge, a statement that frankly is silly.



This statement is not internally consistent nor consistent with the rest of your points.

I think you might have missed the point where CGL outright stated that there was co-mingling of funds and financial mismanagement by one of the owners. The leaked freelancer letter from Randall Bills confirms it was Loren Coleman. So at this point yes, we can pretty clearly state that Loren took the money. The only serious question is whether that action is going to be treated as criminal, and by who.

Pulled to avoid silly-ness

It is pretty amazing what you can overhear in a buffet line at GTS.

Ultimately though, it was their choice and right (the beauty of being the boss).

The Palladium incident involved an employee of a sole proprietorship. Not a valid comparison.

As of Vice on the credits page Holostreets is still listed with a website addy and description as an online subscription service. " Heres to the dreamers!"

I guess the real question would be... "If you could approach him with a payment-in-full check for all his already created content, would you?"

Along with that would be another question... "Would AH accept it?"

My sincerest hope is that both questions have an answer of "Yes!".

No, the real question is "When are folks going to drop that specific issue?" Jason has made it absolutely clear that he won't discuss that in a public forum, and that it is something between him and specific freelancers. *points at over sized troll holding a rather bloody baseball bat* You might want to discuss it with Mr. Crusher over there...

Is this a case of stubbornness or a case of illiteracy?

My sincerest hope is that both questions have an answer of "Yes!".

Uhm... Okay...

I've not looked at this whole thing since a day or two after the whole thing started.


Can anyone fill me in on what has happened since then? :/

Thanks

Sorry dude, you gotta go back and read up like everyone else. I don't know how much time I've sunk into it already.

Short answer though; the money is still gone, freelancers are still largely unpaid and there are still less titles available from CGL than when this started. Infer from that what you will and vocally state your opinion to be championed or derided by the various factions.

It's fun.

Lose the snarky-ass attitude. Thanks.

My quote was from where I had last read the thread, almost 3 pages back (dating to early Friday of last week). I was merely getting caught up. If you have a problem with that, I suggest learning to deal with the fact that not everyone has a constant RSS feed into their brains. It's only 2010, not 2072.

Besides, the best way for my post you quoted to be answered would be to see a street date for such (along with credits) so I could go to my local gaming shop & pre-order.

The ideal situation as far as I'm concerned would be all people's outstanding debts be paid, their copyrights be respected, and we all get back to gaming with products made by the quality authors & contributors we've come to enjoy.

But hey, since you asked so nicely, I'll just shut the hell up and not talk again. I hope that is kosher with you since apparently my posting needs to be run by you first. Would have been nice to know beforehand.

QFT

Mark (who's probably spent as much time as everyone else reading this but just can't bring himself to get involved in a flame war)

Well to be technically accurate there is a change in that some of the freelancers are getting checks sent out to them. Educated guess is it's those withholding copyright on stuff "ready to ship".

Or already shipped and now behind a cease-and-desist, like RW. Not a bad guess, I'd wager, though I'm not possessed of any knowledge to prove or disprove it.

Apparently not. Vice and Midnight are reportedly not included on the list of products to be paid off, and they're ready to ship. There was an accusation made, I can't recall by who, that the payments are going out to those freelancers who showed the most loyalty to the party line, but that's unconfirmed. Truth is, only Mr. Bills and Mr. Coleman know why people are getting paid; Jason Hardy has stated in this thread that he's not responsible for freelancer payment.

Except Tiger Eyes herself stated she was one of those folks that got a partial payment presumably for vice and midnight, (although only she could answer to what). There was an accusation made: by you that was pretty much immediately refuted, stay classy by the way.

I'm very glad I bought both of those as PDFs when they came out.

K.

First, the issue of credibility: I became a user this morning (username pun intended), though have been a consumer of Dumpshock since the Supplemental, Herkimer's Lair, and Plastic Warriors and a player of SR since '94. To further highlight my geek cred, Shadowrun influenced my decision to not only join the navy hospital corps, but volunteer to serve in the marine corps infantry in '98.

Next, capability: I have been a small business owner since '06 and have dealt with financial struggles somewhat similar to what Mr. Coleman and IMR/CGL management are alleged to have. Throughout that painful process I never allowed an employee, contractor, or vendor go unpaid.

The current problem, based solely on a reading of the official press release, seems to be that the SR line has been consistently managed by those with great technical and artistic skills, but limited business management ability. There are, obviously, much worse allegations that have been made of IMR/CGL management, but since I don't know any of the involved individuals personally or professionally, I would like to withhold judgement.

How can a dedicated fan base address this challenge? I would suggest that "we" submit a bid for the license.

How would that work? We can incorporate (probably as an LLC), in a tax-friendly state (Delaware, for example). There are a variety of virtual CFO services that could be contracted to address the business management. They are not cheap, but much less expensive than the problems described in IMR/CGL's press release. We would need to identify (1) what it would cost to lease the license, (2) what amounts are owed to the freelancer community, and (3) how much working capital would be required to get started? Divide that amount into $100 increments and sell shares for $100 per piece. For example, say the Topps license + outstanding CGL debts + required working capital adds up to $1M US. That would amount to 10,000 shares of Shadowrun Fanboys, LLC for sale. Surely there are at least 10,000 fans of SR who would be willing to pay $100 for an ownership stake. Those with the means and desire could invest much more. This would ensure both the continuity of the SR line and that fan interests are served.

Please understand I am not advocating the demise of IMR/CGL. I am suggesting what I believe would be a unique business strategy in the RPG industry. It's taking the employee-owned model to a new level by creating a consumer-owned company. Now, if IMR/CGL retains the license, I propose that the company should be dissolved and all monies returned to the shareholders. Again, the intention is not to support or harm IMR/CGL, just to ensure the continuity of the SR line in an innovative way.

There are many potential hazards to consumer ownership. Very quickly a board of directors would need to be voted in who would then select a management team. I believe this could be done very efficiently. As has been pointed out on these boards, there is no shortage of SR fans who would contribute to the game they love. The management team should be very lean. The more money that can be saved in administration, the more that can be spent on (1) R&D to improve the product - in Shadowrun's case writers, artists, and layout, (2) production quality - i.e. color, hardcover, DRM-free PDFs, and (3) dividends. The potential for dividends is what makes the proposal workable.

I believe there is great potential in subscription based services for SR. One potential example, for $x/month access to all of the sourcebook PDFs online. Another potential example is hosted virtual tabletops. The intention here is to enhance, not replace the richness of the face to face PnP system. The fact is many GMs already host virtual games and I believe many of them would pay for a subscription to better and more easily facilitate those games. Please don't let this suggestion derail the discussion into the pros and cons of PnP-only systems. It's just a product concept within the larger scope of a consumer-owned company leasing the SR license from Topps.

That last point that needs to be addressed is mission statement/statement of company values. While these would need to be formally stated by a board of directors, at least a working concept needs to exist for potential shareholders to buy into. So:

Mission Statement:
Shadowrun Fanboys, LLC exists to produce quality cyberpunk urban fantasy roleplaying games and fiction in an ethical and profitable manner while creating value for customers, contractors, employees, and shareholders.

Short-Term Goals: to raise enough capital to lease the SR license, pay off all existing debts owed by previous SR license holders, hire a development/writing/art/layout team with significant previous SR experience, and to produce 3-5 future books. The keys here are money and previous SR contributors.

The key benefits of this are:
1) perpetual continuity of the SR line
2) all previous and future contributors are paid
3) the ability to raise capital for future projects (I've already proposed two) by selling additional shares
3) shareholders should see a return on their investment (though, granted, I'm not sure how quickly)

Now, what if I'm a con artist scumbag looking to get a million bucks from gullible SR fans, flee the country, and retire someplace warm? I don't know how to address that. We would need someone trusted within the SR community to take leadership and to add credibility to this venture.

Lastly, it needs to be restated that I am not advocating for or against the demise of IMR/GCL. This is a merely a concept, maybe not even a good one. As previously stated, if it doesn't pan out, all invested monies should be returned to the shareholders and the company dissolved. To maintain that goal, the initial leadership team would need to invest hours of time without pay. I would propose that they should receive discounted shares as compensation, but there are many other ways to handle this.

So, how about it? I've presented the concept proposal. Anyone could take it and run with it from here. Thoughts?
(If this is actually a viable option, we should probably take the discussion off of public forums.)