Unless you've forwarded copies of your posts to Topps, I wouldn't expect them to take notice any of this discussion.



Topps is going to want one thing, money. If Catalyst doesn't have a check for them, and can't reasonably explain why they have a check or show a solid business plan for getting that check, Topps will pull the license. It really doesn't matter why they don't have the money, or what's been posted on Dumpshock. It's about the bills, the green kind.



I'm sure everyone will be thrilled and want to jump up to thank you for GURPS Shadowrun.

(Please note that I can't imagine SJ licensing anything ever, so that's a joke, and hyperbole about what could result if the license changes hands. Or it could be the bestest thing ever, we don't really know)



How many beyond those people were privy to the information you've posted? The dollar amounts that are missing, CGL takes in, and expends? I can't imagine it's a long list.

SJG has a long history of licensed products. Remember, at one point, they released licensed versions of Vampire: The Masquerade!

Not to mention Hellboy and Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

*pokes AH* would you not like to get your hands on an occassion to try something with discworld? *snickers*

So is it then your expectation that we simply forget we have a life and jump on here and have an emergency meeting the instant someone breaks the TOS?

By the letter, Topps has been made aware of the situation, but has not let them go yet. Sounds like CGL management may have been getting some backing and support before and during GAMA, and this week they go to Topps to make their case.

I can't imagine any of this discussion mattering to Topps at all. I would think it's just been a distraction for Catalyst. If Topps did take notice, I think it does put Randall in a positive light for how he's been handling it.

Dreamwave continues to be a parallel reference point for me. In that case, Hasbro apparently waited a month or two, expecting payment from DW, with virtually no communication nor business plan put forward. After that, they yanked the license, and put it back up for sale. But in that case, there was a single owner with no peers to put pressure on him to do the right thing. His company folded, freelancers never got a dime, and he went off to his next job/company with his Porche and nice paid-for apartment.

And even one based on Bungie's Myth.

How many of them were one-shots vs. book lines that lasted for years?

Wow. You should be careful about the kinds of assumptions you are making. Besides the fact that you are passing off second or third hand information as truth (what do you really know about where his tuition comes from?), you have no idea how hard Frank does or doesn't work at what he does. There are lots of kinds of students. I can assure you that most of them don't work anywhere near hard enough to get where Frank is.

I throw GURPS Castle Falkenstein, GURPS Humanx, GURPS Traveller and GURPS Conspiracy X in the mix, although I believe for ConX the licensing actually went the other way 'round, with Eden Studios being the only publisher to ever publish a GURPS book other than SJG (afaik)

I was just about to post this.

I'm looking at GURPS Traveler right now on my bookshelf in eyesight for example. Munchkin is a SJGames published game, but I don't think it's actual SJ intellectual property.

On the remote and unlikely chance of SJ Games acquiring Shadowrun licensing, you'd probably see a GURPS edition and a standard edition. It's how they do things. I have the ENTIRE run of In Nomine for example, save for GURPS In Nomine. All splat books that they released would be compatible with both gurps & what would probably be SR5.

The rules differences would be interesting. SJ Games isn't afraid of getting incredibly crunchy with the rules.

Yeah, that's something that has really been eye-opening for me in this whole situation. The fan/community reaction has not been at all what I expected. There seems to have been a much bigger, vocal, extremist/reactionary minority than I expected from either community.

Of course, then you have the Ctech fans, who've already seen one publisher go by the wayside. The reaction there seems to have largely been "Meh. When's the next book out?"

It is.

@AH

I'm very sad to hear that your PACKS material won't see the light of day. That's a great loss to the community in my opinion.


@knasser

Irish Blackmail?

Holy crap, I nearly spat perfectly good beer all over a perfectly good laptop reading that.....




@somebody else

A few people have quibbled with Frank because the letter he leaked revealed information that was already public domain or that had already been deduced.

I'd like to point out that there is a hell of a difference between informed speculation and black and white facts.

The letter to the freelancers likely turns speculation that would have seen endless debate here into indisputable facts.

That fact alone does have measurable value.

This might be my paranoia talking, but I never take anything as undisputed fact, if only because there is always someone to dispute it. In this case, you're making the assumption that Randall was 100% honest to the freelancers. Now, I'm not saying he wasn't honest, I'm just pointing out that there is no guarantee he is being honest - there are plenty of reasons to snowball freelancers as well as the general public. So the only "facts" here are to the extant that Randall is saying about the same things to the freelancers as Catalyst said to the fans, with perhaps a modicum more detail. You certainly can't fault him for consistency, at least.

A few notes, then I'll jump out.

1. Loren Colemen and Bill Randalls built CGL from the ground up. Without them we wouldn't have the SR product that we have had for the past five years.
2. The freelance writers are the one's who have been hurt the most buy everything that has happened. Not the fans (Because in reality Shadowrun is only a game), nor Bill Randalls (As the leader it was under his jurisdiction). I cannot speak for them, nor will I attempt to....but I will point one thing out. Randalls is trying, to get you your money, and has been according to the letter is very apologetic about the entire situation. Wanting to hang the Coleman's in front of the town square is understandable and it whether or not anyone will ever forgive them is their own personal decision. But I understand what Bill Randalls did. He went up to a very close friend, looked him in the eye and made a decision not to throw him under the bus despite the events which have happened. I was not there for the conversations they had about the issue, nor was anyone else. But on a very humanistic level, I can understand wanting and having to forgiving someone who you've been through so much with.

Randalls and Coleman could honestly just say "F' you guys. We really don't care, and don't have any plans to pay you back. Let the company fold and we'll declare bankruptcy. Screw the fans, let's not talk to them. Our names will be dragged through mud, but f' it, it's not worth it."

Instead they are going trying, scratching, communicating, being honest, putting himself out there, and fighting to get the money to the freelancers who rightfully deserve the cash.

- The past is the past and there is nothing we can do to changed what happened over the past three years. The only thing people can do right now is move on and try to make the best out of the situation. I assume and can be wrong here, but if the liscense for SR leaves CGL and goes to another company, the new company will not be obligated to pay the free lancers.

- According to the letter, and the tone of what everyone seems to be upset with is the forgiveness and decision to keep Loren Coleman with the company. Wrong move? Right move? Time will tell. But giving someone a second chance, giving a close friend a second chance? I can live with that no matter how many other people are pissed off.

A fair point, I still feel we now have more data-points than we did before. Merely identifying the Colemans as the source of the discrepancy is more 'fact' and less arguing about speculation.

Interesting. I kinda missed the middle of the whole discussion. Anyway, from what I have read, here are some of my reactions:

1) NDA's are bad; I'll never work under one
2) Freelancers not getting paid is bad; they have bills to pay
3) what's the future of Shadowrun?

Actually, NDAs are good, even essential to business. What's bad is that there is such a breakdown in trust between the corp and the freelancers that parties are willing to break an NDA, or that the company is so poorly organized they don't have NDAs for many of their people.

Could be me, but since when is breaking a contract a criminal act?


Being one that has spend money on SR and BT products for the last 21 years, that still doesn't mean that there's any bigger relation ship then buying a book from a company. Spending money is easy, and unless it specifically states that when you buy a book you can make claims on the company and it's decisions, your views are exactly that, your views. You can snigger and sputter all you want, but your (and mine) opinion count for exactly squat. I've invested time and resources in an official BT project, that also means squat, I volunteered. If you want to have a say in how SR is made, make Topps an offer they can't refuse. If it's as some have claimed, a license to print money, I'm certain that a well written business plan will net you the business loans you'll need. But to be honest, I know ten jobs from the top of my head that are less stressful and net me a lot more money then starting a game company and spending an insane amount of money on a couple of licenses. The whole backseat driver attitude is grating on my nerves.

ps. Your not one of those who have been collecting SR for 20 years, your 22 years old!

Um, No. Breaking a contract is not a crime. Its a civil matter, not a criminal one. You can break contracts all day long and the cops and district attorneys won't care one bit. Its up to the other party in your contract to enforce it by taking you to court, not them.

Good luck finding a job at any creative, innovative or otherwise sensitive branch.

NDAs have a very useful purpose. They allow people to tell you things that they really don't want going out in public.

We do this with vendors occasionally, they will give you the details about product that they are planning to release months or years from now, which allow you to plan your operation to make use of these. It sucks to take delivery of $500K worth of product and find out the next week that it will be replaced by something that costs $350K and is three times faster.

NDAs are a necessary evil. I have a lot of friends who are programmers, and all of them are NDA'ed up the wazoo.

Nothing wrong with moral stands, but consider if you really mean that before you assert it.

For a gaming company where you're working as a freelancer, an NDA to prevent you from revealing information that will be published is one thing. One that forbids you from discussing anything about anything for no apparent reason other than because a lawyer decided to throw it into the agreement is bullshit. Especially for said gaming company where you're just doing freelance work. At that point the NDA has evolved from being a means of protecting your product to one that the company and/or its lawyers can use to blackmail your ass if and when they want to.

Good thing McDonald's is always hiring It's one of the few jobs I've ever had where I didn't have to sign soem flavor of NDA or confidentiality agreement.

The point that NDAs and breaking them is a contractual problem and not a legal one brings up an interesting point that people also are missing about what's been decided by Randall. Catalyst is a private company. From what I've read recently on the LLC structure (so yeah, this is second hand, and I'm not expert), whatever money Catalyst makes belongs to the owners, and the taxes are paid out of the Catalyst books. Whatever agreement the owners established at the beginning dictates how that pool gets divided up. Did one of the owners take too much? Yes. Did it result in Catalyst being unable to fulfill contractual obligations with freelancers? Yes.

My point is, it's a civil contractual issue, and it's not a law-breaking one. While what was done might be unethical, it wasn't illegal. By law, the ones who were wronged were the other owners. They have to make a choice, do they sue the one who broke their original agreement, or do they try to work with that person to try and get things made right? The decision has been made to try and make things right. The wronged owners are trying to hold the partner accountable, but still forge ahead with the company.

To the credit of the partner who was responsible, some degree of credit must be given to the fact that they didn't just walk away. If Catalyst is pressed to renew licenses, then they really aren't likely to be able to handle legal fees on top of that. Most likely, right now, if the person responsible wanted to, they could walk away without much more harm than their reputation has suffered already. I'm not excusing what they did, I just hope they continue to make the right choice in making up for what they've done.

The freelancers have been wronged as well, but by Catalyst. They can either wait and try to work with Catalyst until they fulfill outstanding obligations, or they can pull copyright on material they haven't been paid for and cut all ties with the company. There are people choosing both options.

Whether an NDA is being violated is also a contractual issue. Either the person giving Frank information is freelancer, possibly under an NDA or not, or they may be an employee as Frank has claimed. If they're under and NDA or an employee, then it's likely a breach of that contract, and could face legal problems if Catalyst ever figured out who it was. Though, really, I think Catalyst management has bigger issues on their mind at the moment.

Unless of course they tell you the secret of their french fries. In this case there is a clause in the NDA saying they will kill you if you tell to someone you shouldn't.

Now, HOLY CRAP! I won't spend any more weekends with my girlfriend until this whole SR-is-dead thing is over (for better or worse).
I've lost all the action.

wat

And you win the prize! You now have the chance to avoid long-winded logical posts.... oh, wait.



Oh, I do - on both counts. That is the point. Some I can affect, others I can't. I khow the difference; you should, too. I am poking fun at you sillies for taking this kerfluffle (and by extension, yourselves) waaay too seriously.



Lordy, that was no rant, it was a subtle dig involving a game - apropos of the forum. C'mon, five syllables? Did you really pack more into that sentence for having used that word? You have some good points. Stop losing them by assuming everyone around you has a college education. You just sound stuffy and a leeetle pompous.

Cent13

We may have, indeed. I am sure it was right after someone whacked me in the head with some big words.

You might have missed that, though.

I will keep it civil. Or you can gunch my account and scotch my posts in their entirety. Your call.

Darnit, where's the PM when you need one?

Cent13

Joke, really



Soooooooo, when was dumpshock relocated to 4chan? Did I miss the advertisement (hey, look, a 4-syllabble word, does this mean I can go to college now? )

My thoughts exactly, some people reducing this board to the level of 4chan.

My biggest worry is CGL folds or loses the SR license and then no one else picks it up. The last thing I want is shadowrun to go the way of star frontiers. I hope the freelancers get paid and CGL sorts out the mess. I hate to see the loss of some great freelancers and hope this situation is resolved.

Regardless of what happens I have been happy with SR4. I didn't like the previous incarnations, but with the optional rules and supplemental rulebooks have increased my enjoyment of the game. Kudos to all the people who worked on the game.

I've always liked the setting, although the 1st and 2nd edition rules were always a little cumbersome (never played 3rd edition, skipped right to 4th).

But yeah, the worst thing would be CGL dropping SR out and take years before someone else takes the license running again.

I believe that nature abhors a vacuum and businesses untapped revenue streams. The IP is in tact and unless George Lucas decides to make a SR movie it should remain so.

CGL…I wish the very best for those who have departed and the best of luck for those who remain.

You probably shouldn't say that. I think that George Lucas appears whenever someone speaks the name of a terrible idea.'

Kind of like Hastur or Bloody Mary.

I heard it was when you said His name backwards three times. (Do note: I think Star Wars was a great idea, until George Lucas decided to spen too much time on it instead of letting other people make him richer)

I should have been more specific. I meant within the context of this gaming industry. I have seen NDA's abused way too much. And freelancers are just not paid enough to put up with the lack of professionalism that occurs, but cannot be spoken about, due to NDA's.

If somebody has a contractual problem and it is less than $5000 (in a lot of states) take them to small claims court. Instant gratification no. At some point the company finds that having outstanding claims is fouling their ability to get credit and settle.

Anecdotally, I have never experienced any problems with the three game companies that I did business with. Outside of the game industry though I have had some problems, few and far between though.

It is important to remember though, that when you are owed money that you need to abide by the Fair Debt laws when seeking to collect.

Certain posters in this thread have posted on other forums and blogs that BT is doing great and that SR & SR players basically need to shut up, stop rocking the boat, and suck it.

That sentiment quite frankly pisses me off. BT isn't the end all be all of tabletop games (even though it was my first FASA game). It's a great game and I do like playing it. I also like Shadowrun and want to see it continue to have a bright and vibrant future.

Those posters telling us to shut up and suck it can shove that condescending attitude. It doesn't help ANYONE and it certainly belies their own character.

My main concern now is if/when I will receive my SR4A LE I pre-ordered over a year ago followed by whether or not one of my favorite games will continue to live well.

Darthmord,

I do believe that Jason said that there were not any problems with SR4A LE and that it was going to be available shortly (I think that his post was in the second thread).

My suggestion for being of assistance would be to cheer on Randall, Jason and everyone else trying to fix things. I can't imagine that vitriol is going to encourage the folks at CGL (not that I am saying you have been vitriolic in anyway). For myself, I am going to pickup an extra copy of the main rule book...I think my bookshelf can handle one more book.

This was about to become the longest rant/bashing of a single person I ever wrote. Instead, I give you the index version:

- Pages 01 to 11: Introduction about why I'm pissed.
- Pages 11 to 52: General rant about how leaking letters is the reason behind any corporation's useal "black hole" information policy
- Pages 53 to 57: Calling various people pricks
- Pages 58 to 75: Dissecting Frank's personal agenda as master spy/super journalist
- Pages 76 to 86: Dissecting the logic behind giving Topps information they need to know by hiding it on DS forums
- Pages 87 to 88: More prick-calling
- Pages 89 to 254: Closing notes

AAS

Some of you seem to be having difficulties recalling the difference between right and wrong. The difference between legal and illegal. The difference between living up to your contracts and not doing so. The difference between truth and lies. Apparently, people are going to have to take a step back and think about those issues. And to aid with that, I will now make my seventh post on this forum in this ongoing discussion.

Right and Wrong

Stealing money from people is wrong. Helping your friends steal money is wrong. Rich people stealing money from poor people is more wrong, because it hurts the poor people more than it helps the rich people.What Loren Coleman did was wrong. What Randall Bills did was wrong. It is wrong because even if Randall is telling the truth, then he is at the very least giving Loren Coleman assistance while he steals money from people who have very much less than he does. That's wrong.

On the other hand, telling the truth is right. Lies are wrong, truth is right. It's that simple. Telling the truth about someone else doing wrong is the right thing to do. Saying nothing is the same thing as lying, and that is wrong. Telling the truth about someone else doing something wrong is right, and not wrong.

Legal and Illegal

Blowing the whistle on a crime is not itself a crime. Breaking a contract is not a crime, but having people work for you without paying them is not only a crime it is unconstitutional. We fought a war about it, look it up. Taking money without reporting it is also a crime. Being upset that you had signed a contract to get paid money and then not getting paid that money is not a crime.

Living up to your contracts

Do you know how much weight a contract of any kind has to cover up illegal activities? None whatsoever.
I am not under contract of any kind with Catalyst Game Labs. Catalyst Game Labs does not have NDA contracts for numerous employees. Even if they had those contracts on people who chose to divulge information through me, they would be unenforceable in the face of criminal activities.
Payment contracts are rather unambiguous. If the work is delivered, the payment is supposed to be rendered in accordance with that work. It is a demonstrable fact that people submitted real work that really got published by Catalyst Game Labs and then CGL failed to pay those monies. That is what an unambiguous breach of contract looks like. Not someone who may or may not have been under an NDA chose to come forward with evidence of criminal malfeasance. Someone who decided that instead of honoring their contracts to pay people money for real work that they really put in - to take that money and put it in their pants and dance around.

Truth and Lies

I have at all times attempted to impart information that is true about this ongoing crisis. This is in part because I don't like being proved wrong, and also because as previously noted Truth is good and Lies are bad. This means among other things that there are many accusations and suppositions that end up on my desk that don't get repeated - because I can't substantiate them. The statement by Randall Bills is from his mouth unedited. It is him putting the very best possible face on the situation. And while he prevaricates pretty well, he still straight up admits that the people who were supposed to hold Coleman's feet to the fire are Jennifer Harding and David Stansel, that they have quit, and that even now he has not found people to take over their duties (duties that included getting the money back from the Colemans). That's incredibly damning. But it's not half as damning as some of the things that I can't verify. These things include and are not limited to:

• Loren forcing David Stansel and Jennifer Harding out - with Randall's blessing because they were trying to get the money back.
• Randall Bills getting a cut of the money in exchange for his unwavering support of the Colemans.
• The Colemans refusing to sign the deal to pay the money back in the form of giving up portions of their ownership of the company to the other owners.
• Loren Coleman having misfiled the incorporation of IMR LLC in the first place, in an effort to deprive the other investors of their share of the company and then hiding that fraud by misreporting the company's income over a three year period.
• ... and so on and so on ...

These are mere accusations. I can't verify them, because they are each from just one or two people - and those people are admittedly super angry. But keep in mind, the part where Randall Bills is complicit in aiding Loren while he takes money out of the corporation that isn't his while the corporation is left unable to pay real people the real money that they are entitled to is his side of the story. The other side of the story exists, and it is worse.

And just to get that out there: yes, there are two sides. There are in fact more than two sides. And I am significantly far removed from the most anti-Loren Coleman of those sides. I have not suggested ripping his skin off, even in jest. I am not even unambiguously behind the people who quit (or were fired, if you go for the more strident accounts). Remember, David Stansel had exactly one job in human history as regards me: which was to get me my paycheck on time and in full for Augmentation back when it finally got printed in late 2007. He did not come through with that. My paycheck was late and short. I have given reviews of no less than three books written in part by Jennifer Harding (Feral Cities, Corporate Enclaves, and Runner's Companion). My reviews of those books were bad, and my reviews of the specific segments written by her were specifically bad. She's not the worst author in the world, but I'm on record panning her work. Those two people are not invited to my birthday party. But that doesn't mean that what was done to them was right. It was not. They are victims in the Catalyst audit and the fallout thereof, that much is clear.

Bringing the information forward was the right thing to do. Not because information wants to be free - because information doesn't want anything. But because Western Society wants information to be free. And as members of Western Society, it is our moral imperative to see that wrongdoing gets exposed, that lies are countered with truth, and that victims are afforded the vindication and support they deserve. And the fact that in my estimation, doing the right thing is the most likely path towards books coming out that I can buy, read, and enjoy - is certainly a plus.

-Frank

Every employment contract I've seen so far includes some sort of confidentiality clause. So even if you never ever sign a seperate NDA (which, as several others have pointed out, might be difficult), you still are obliged to keep work-related things confidential and might lose your job if you don't.

You know, Frank...

Thing is, every time I read something from you, you're right. Game mechanics, legality, process, what-have you... everything you say is barbed-wire-coated truth. I just wish to whatever powers run this universe that you'd say it less abrasively.

Two people who have never read 4chan.

then by all means, give us their names so we can verify them. In the interest of transparency and all.

Frank, I honestly think you think you're doing the right thing. I truly do. I also see that you haven't thought this through long term.

I see you're studying to become a medical professional - kudos to you, we need more, and you're obviously not an idiot. But any ethics board worth its salt will do a background check; and stuff like this turns up. I'm not a full time freelancer, I have a day job, and like most freelancers I generally keep very quiet on the internet, because I'm not a nameless figure (I am in this case - hypocritical or not) - I have a net presence, published works, etc; and when I next go to an employer, and they type my name into a detailed search engine, they'll see me keeping quiet about most of everything, a few author credits here and there for a niche hobby, but nothing controversial.

when your name comes up in the integrity check process when you're being hired to handle confidential information (and remember, improper release of confidential patient information has led to several lawsuits lately) - what is your net presence going to say?

at the end of the day, this is a hobby. Burn your bridges within the community by all means. But be aware that you might also be burning future bridges too. Keep that in mind next time these "people" (who have protected themselves, at the expense of ypu) get you to post something. An employer isn't going to care if you've alienated yourself from a gaming community - they are very much going to care that you've been posting potentially libelous claims vis-à-vis confidential information.

What kind of credentials do you have to back up this kind of statement?

I seem to recall Frank himself telling about his studies when someone asked about it.