EDIT: double post. Sorry, rookie mistake.

Concept is post #1000 on bottom of page 40: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=910535

Here i thought i'd repost this for you in case in some weird funk state you were reprinting your own inaccurate guesses as facts and inside information instead of just trolling.

You presume incorrectly.

I didn't pick up midnight because dusk had left such a bad taste in my mouth, how is it, more of super goddess frosty and her gopher squad?

Done right, I'd be interested in augmentin's suggestion.

But with more focus on the core of SR.

Touche' AH, of course it's possible they could cut another check going forward for Midnight, my point is the checks are being sent out based on getting product out the door or keeping product out the door on shelves so far. I see no indication that trend will not continue nor do I see an indication that checks are being mailed under some grand conspiracy of loyalists vs rebels which seems to be Cain's delusion du jur.

Frosty has to use all of her magic to power a 4th world artifact, so she never gets to throw a spell.

Well, I would point out - as several people already heave - that for reasons that beggar the imagination, the checks that were sent out did not cover the two books that we know are already in print and in country, Vice and Midnight. While we perhaps cannot know exactly why this is the case, it does seem pretty bloody stupid on someone's part and not part of a concerted effort to actually get product out the door or on the shelves.

@Synner667: I'm admittedly an outsider. The concept is only workable with both money and the buy in of previous and (hopefully) current contributors. I believe you are a member of that group. What would you like to see come out of such a concept?

Throwing out a complete guess, they're paying the debts off in chronological order, but also making a point of putting their awakened ducks in a row for 6th World so that they can put it in print ASAP.

What better way to lure fans and retailers who are aware of the mess back in than being able to claim that freelancers on the new book have already been paid, and income from the book will help make further payments?

I'll just say it again, because I think it needs to be said, awakened ducks.

Except in the case of 6thWA they have to rewrite AH's sections. That's going to be a serious delay considering the loss of Adam Jury as well. I wouldn't expect that book anytime soon, even if CGL scrapes up the cash to print it.

Sounded like they were going to several authors to get those sections done, but that would still mean a little more time. So perhaps they're trying to lock down as much content to the book as possible, before any other freelancers cancel their contract.

Also, don't need as much cash to issue the PDF.

I could very well see the 6th World PDF sales being directed to pay off contracts to release the remaining in-print material. It would make sense to make that a priority over getting a new book in print, since you've got retailers and CGL sitting on product they aren't supposed to sell.

Once the held books are paid off, then they start looking at actually doing a print run of 6th World.

I believe you're asking the wrong Synner... That said, many of your ideas have merit though some of your initial analysis is off. Creatively speaking, the Shadowrun line, like the Battletech line, is run by a line developer (Rob initially, me after that, currently Jason Hardy). The developer's job is pretty cool and ideally involves getting talented authors to write the best books they can (based on the developer's guidelines and bookspecs) to forward the developer's own overriding vision for the line and setting. (Note that while the developer usually provides a lot of artnotes and guidelines for each book, artwork is actually the province of the Art Director/Developer). Each line developer answers to Catalyst's Managing Developer, Randall Bills, who is/was in charge of keeping us in line, making sure that books stayed on schedule, and that any hiccups in the development phase of the process got ironed out.

(Most of) The problems with Catalyst have nothing to do with the development side of things (ie. the books that were just pulled from distributors were delivered for editing more than a year ago, a point that normally means the book will be in stores in two-three months, these took 9-12 months to be released). The problem appears to have been with top-level management and has impacted directly the other half of the product development equation - production and printing. Ultimately and inevitably it backlashed and affected the pillars of the development process - the people (mostly freelancers) who write, illustrate and edit the books.

Some of your ideas for expanding the profit potential of the line are great, but they're nothing new. They're stuff (along with the Holostreets fiction subscription service, the chargen software, the novels, and numerous other projects) that Rob, I and Adam voiced interest in developing at one point or another (often more than once) while we were at Catalyst. However, the intricacies and timing of the Topps license have made all those things slow-burn projects that haven't budged in years (obviously, the now-evident financial mismanagement was also a factor).

As for such thing as a community-owned license.... well, let me put it this way. Ask 3 Dumpshockers about something and you're likely to get 4.6 answers. Multiply that schizophrenia by the fanboy community (hey, I'm a fanboy myself) and I seriously doubt the community would come to an agreement about how to manage the license, let alone who should manage it and what direction it should take.

That said, starting with a core group that is interested in setting up a company to bid for the license and opening up minority participation in said company to the community in exchange for helping fund the start-up, that's an idea I could get behind.

Vice is in stores. I bought a copy on Thursday.

They were shipped, but they shouldn't be on the shelf as I understand it. I asked a while back about this as well seeing as my friend, a store owner, was unsure if he should be ordering or stocking any CGL products.

Yeah, I should really send somebody a nasty e-mail about that.

I was loosely involved in the fan funded Glorantha Trading Association that funded Greg Stafford's HeroQuest. They attempted to do a fan owned corp, but the securities law ate them alive when they looked into the details. So they found a different approach. If you really want to do this you should get in touch with Greg Stafford and he might be able and willing to provide the legal framework he used.

Its my understanding that Virtual Tabletops would be a NO as Topps does not own FASA Interactive and the digital rights are separate from the book rights currently. Honestly I think a fanboy run company would be a nightmere because it would become dumpshock wars in the development cycle.

Hasn't FASA interactive been disbanded?

I thought Microsoft snatched up the rights. Which makes it as good as gone forever.

I'd support something like this. Maybe someone could organize something like this (hint).

There seems to be a lot of confusion about why payments were made in what order, with some people coming to the conclusion that Catalyst management is insane, vindictive, or both. Let me suggest that the following things should be known in order to better understand the decisions.

1. By which dates are all the payments in question due?
2. Exactly what are the effects of freelancers withholding copyrights on a project already published? Or on a project near publication? Which projects have freelancers withheld copyrights on?
3. What are the effects of freelancers terminating a contract on a project that has been published? For which projects has that happened?

Unless you have the answers to all these questions--and I mean good answers from a lawyer for those last two--then it is quite possible you are not prepared to understand just how the decisions have been made.

Now, I know that the inevitable response to this is that people will say "Help us understand. Explain all these steps and offer details, please." Unfortunately, the answer has to be my customary "No" on such things, and here's why:

1. Again, just because people are curious doesn't mean a business' need to keep information confidential goes away. There are simply some things that are not public business.

2. Once lawyers are involved in any way, it is extremely unwise for non-lawyers such as myself to advance opinions or information. Tends not to help things.

I know that will not be satisfactory to everyone here, but that simply leads me to refer to Synner's salient point about opinions and Dumpshockers in post 1013. I'm never going to satisfy everyone!

Jason H.

Keep in mind for any product with N number of copyright holders, it cannot go out the door with only N-1 having given over the copyrights. I'm sure who is withholding a particular copyright for any existing or forthcoming product factors heavily into any decisions made regarding payment. CGL is no doubt to attempting to maximize it's available financial resources.

Its my understanding that the rights went to Microsoft who then disbanded FASA Interactive and is now licensing those rights to Jordan Weisman after a failed purchase attempt. Whew... I could be 100% wrong though

Not really – the right time to be vindictive is after people served their purpose.

Which is why it eludes me why you went for the nuclear option on AH before it was a done deal.

@Synner: My sincere apologies. (BTW, where else can you hear the quote "I believe you're asking the wrong Synner" and it's not tongue-in-cheek?) My ideas aren't new; few ever are. My (very) limited understanding is that Smith & Tinker, Inc. own the electronic rights to SR. Even if we never see Holostreets or an SR iPad app, could SR still be profitable as a PnP only system? I couldn't answer that, but hopefully you can...

Here's a few other ideas to add to the mix: how do PDF sales compare to paperback in terms of gross margin per copy? The PDFs I've purchased have been great. Easily readable and more importantly searchable. But, they haven't taken full advantage of some of the things Acrobat can do such as internal and external document links. For those that love the feel of dead trees: my company sells equipment for under $50k capable of producing a 400 page full color hardcover for under $30 and 20 minutes of semi-skilled labor. This is obviously not viable for long production runs, but consider the possibilities of creating custom source books. Upload a few jpegs and enter some text and have your very own, personalized SR4A "[insert your favorite PC or NPC] edition". Further value (and revenue) could come from paying your favorite SR artist sketch your cover art. Assume a 100% markup and you'd need to sell at least 2,000 just to cover the capital investment and generate a modest ROI. The same equipment could produce a 200 B&W pages and perfect bound color paperback for under $10 and 10 minutes of semi-skilled labor. This obviously eliminates the economy of scale from going to press and (sadly) bypasses the FLGS, but it's a way to get dead trees into gamer's hands. The point is not that this is the best way to do it (it's probably not), only that there go to market strategies a PnP RPG producer could employ that require very little capital investment. It would also serve to get product out quickly. This too, is probably not a new idea.

I did not mean to cast doubt on the business savvy of any current or previous developers. I hope it wasn't taken that way. Mostly, I'm referring to the official PR release and it's reference to commingling of funds. This may or may not have been malicious, but that it occurred meant that there was poor financial management. Again, I have no personal or professional knowledge of anything in this specific instance. My ideas aren't meant to imply that I know anything about developing an RPG and certainly not that I know more than you or anyone else who has had that role. It sounds like a "pretty cool" job, though my experience has been that "dream jobs" often fail to live up to the ideal and are usually a lot of work.

(Also @ kxt:) Regarding the schizophrenic fan base: that's a very salient point. However, I'm not suggesting a co-op. I'm suggested a traditional corporation. For example, very few Apple employees ever saw or were privy to any details about the iPad until Saturday. Even the "geniuses" who will fix them weren't given any information. How is that? Apple is a publicly traded company. Because the individual stock holders only get to vote on the board of directors. They don't get a say in the actual decisions. The board of directors votes on major, strategic decisions. (Should we kill Dunklezahn? Hey, how can the FLGS get a piece of our PDF sales? What sort of payment schedule should we set up for the freelancers?) The day to day business operations are handled by the management team. This is what I am suggesting, except as a privately held company.

@ The Monk: That sounds like a great idea. Speaking from personal experience bidding on an entirely unrelated franchise (and possibly completely irrelevant), the two main things the [Insert major company], Inc. franchisor want to see are a viable, comprehensive, and well researched business plan and plenty of working capital. I have no doubt that a core group could quickly put together an outstanding business plan. The more difficult task is acquiring capital. Venture capitalists are few and far between over the last eighteen months and let's be honest, is the Blackstone Group or Berkshire Hathaway going to invest in cyberpunk?

I have no idea how much capital would be required, and I believe it would be responsible for any new venture to begin by paying off debts to freelancers incurred by previous licensees. (It would be a terrible business decision, but it would still be the most responsible course of action.) But, it is likely more than what a core group of SR fanboys could come up with in under two months. (I'm not trying to be disparaging. If you have deep pockets, by all means, lease the license and I'll make you richer by buying your products.) For example, my company incorporated more than four years ago and as a service-disabled veteran owned small business, I am eligible for SBA-backed lending. Nonetheless, I couldn't hope to raise more than $150k and that would likely be contingent on winning the license. (No license - no product - no money.)

Now, let's say said core group could raise $10k. Now let's also say, we're going going to compensate them with a 90% discount on preferred stock. The core group would then own a 10% stake in the company, plus whatever common stock they purchase. The trade off is now, our hypothetical Shadowrun Fanboys, Inc.* with an initial start up of 10,000 shares only raises $910,000 in start up costs. This could quickly generate enough money to bid on the license, pay off existing debts, and begin development. Is that enough? Is this workable? Would 9,000 SR fans spend $100 on an ownership stake in their beloved game? More importantly, could they do it in under two months?

I honestly don't know. What do you think?

*Changed to a C Corp from LLC due to difficult of raising capital for a passthrough.

From what I've read, the Palladium incident was someone working there and handling the money taking books, selling them, pocketing the money and even double dipping by taking money for books he never sent out, and also selling stuff he found around the warehouse and what not. They call it the Crisis of Treachery over there. And cite it for not hitting release dates even at present. But yeah he was in charge of the money so hid it when the money went missing.

Like the guy in Shadowrun who 'co-mingled' his personal money with the company's and subsequently owes a 'significant balance'.

You can get them on Ebay too. I know that's 're-sellers' and the price has jumped for them, but for the re-sellers to have them then people bought them out of stores. I know... that's probably not what you wanna hear, but I just got into SR4th and have been buying books and found Vice with little to no trouble.

It's Seattle 2072 that you're gonna pay big bucks for right now.

Edit: As a small note. I did not BUY Vice on Ebay. I have only gotten SR4a(Bookstore) Runner Havens, Runner's Companion, Augmentation and Arsenal off Ebay. I've not paid money for the books that are up in the air where freelancers haven't been paid.

I'm not saying I'm ultra moral and WONT.... but I've not done so yet and am hoping those people get paid soon, so that if I get money TO buy them, it won't become a moral question.

We can answer the first one easily, though. Unless there's some arcane formula to it, payments should be due in order of date of publication. As stated, Vice and Midnight have already been published. So, those should be the first ones paid for. Add to the fact that these books are sitting at the FLGS's, not paying on them seems extremely weird.

You are also capable of answering 3b without revealing anything new. A partial list of books held up by the freelancer strike was released by CGL; so for brevity's sake, you can repeat that information. If nothing else, we can get it from our FLGS's, but that would make it seem like you're hiding something.

No question can be taken in isolation. That is, you may know the order of publication, but do you know the other elements affecting the book?

I'm sure I can repeat the books that are being held, since I've done so a number of times already. Here it is again: Vice, Dusk, Midnight, Seattle 2072, and Running Wild.

Jason H.

If they are being held, why could I buy a Hardcopy of all of them?

Very well could be. I don't really keep up with it at all since I long ago gave up any hope for any decent computer-related Shadowrun products. Games or otherwise.

They're 'Supposed' to be pulled off the shelf till the dispute about copy write and the freelancers is finished. But the reality of the situation is most book stores don't go out and pull books off the shelf that might make them money for this sort of thing. It's an out of sight out of mind sort of deal. Those very much 'rules bound' or close to the distributor where they might get caught probably pull them, but most probably just get the email or letter. Nod and go 'Not worrying about it'. They stock 100s to1000s of books.

What it MAY do is make it so they don't order more Shadowrun books, because they're a hassle.

I've got a copy of all those books, but that's because I preordered them. As I understand it, they are not sending any more out, and game stores are not supposed to have them on the shelves, and are supposed to remove them from the shelves.

What really gets me puzzled is why did they use draconian NDAs but not include a clause about transferring copyright ownership? /boggle

The SNES and Mega Drive games were fun. Not really true Shadowrun, but fun.

Okay, so the License for Shadowrun electronic products rests with Jordan Weisman and/or an obscure company now. Thought they were with Topps. Thanks.

And Seattle 2072 is affected too? I own a hardcopy of it, despite having taken up to buy only the German Pegasus products becaue I like their less unreliable binding. And did so a fewmonths ago. It has been around for some time at my FLGS.

Not all stores have pulled them. Understanding why entails an understanding of retail machinations that I currently do not possess.

Jason H.

Minor annoyance time. It's not "copy write." It's "copyright." I'm not altogether sure what the former is. The latter is "exclusive right to publish and sell literary or musical or artistic work."

We now return you to your regularly scheduled wild-ass speculation.

The biggest problem my friend has is that he was never made aware of the situation or what he needs to do with books in stock. In fact, he told me that he was concerned about CGL as a company and was about to cancel the Shadowrun games going on in the store because he wasn't sure if he could sell any products or if Shadowrun would exist as a game once CGL folds.

I let him know that the IP isn't in danger and that games should continue as long as he has stock of books that are able to be sold.

I appreciate that last part!

Jason H.

It's called, it comes up as misspelled on the spell checker and auto corrects. It's great to know that you've devolved to trying to correct people's spelling on forums. You have nothing better to do? Ugg. THAT is a pet peeve of mine. People that think correcting spelling or grammar on Forums boards where people post for fun are some how intellectually superior. And to do it publicly where they get to talk down their noses at others. People post in forums casually. It's not a term paper. It's not published work. Lighten up.

You worry about your own spelling and writing. I'll worry about mine. If you have nothing better to do than nit pick someone's spelling, keep it to yourself. It shows a level of immaturity.

I play in two games at the store and another at his house, my motivations are strongly rooted in getting my Shadowrun fix.

I do hope the matter is concluded quickly. I very much would like to buy the books, and some of the announced but not produced books as well. The 6th World Almanac looks awesome from the write up. I'd really LOVE that one. If what I read is right, and I may be mistaken, I think one of the guys that wrote alot of that pulled his work. I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm really looking forward to the book and if it's being re-written in a rush it probably won't be as good as the original work.

would you sign an agreement to transfer copyright without payment? i rather doubt anyone but the most inexperienced author would make such an agreement, and then only if they don't consult anyone else about it.

which means if you had a policy requiring that the person give you copyright without payment, you would very quickly have nobody other than completely inexperienced and trusting authors for you... at least until it becomes public knowledge that you do so, and then you likely won't even have them.

from what others have said, the NDA agreement is pretty standard for the industry. i don't think it's particularly draconian to request that if they give you information about the business that they don't release to the general public that you not share that information to the general public. in point of fact, without such an agreement, it is likely that you would not have been given such information to begin with. (which is why i'm not expecting any more leaks to come from freelancers, because at this point CGL has been burned and isn't likely to trust freelancers with any confidential information, with or without an NDA).

in any event, i have to say if i was one of the freelancers who has been waiting months for a paycheck, i'd be disinclined to work for the company again. and if i did, i'd probably be really firm about not letting anything get published without first receiving payment, because as the saying goes... fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me. (or, alternately: once bitten, twice shy).

it is unfortunate to see them go, i'd rather have them continue to produce material for the game (which may yet happen, *if* CGL loses the license *and* someone else picks it up *and* that someone else chooses to hire on the freelancers *and* that new someone is someone the freelancers feel they can now trust), but i can't blame them for choosing to leave.

it's unfortunate that in this case, CGL's poor treatment of their freelancers has resulted in a situation where it's basically a matter of having either the same company or the same freelancers, with no particularly likely scenario that leads to getting both, but it's the situation we're likely to be stuck with for the foreseeable future.

Did I say anything about "without payment?" And as previously mentioned in this thread, there's a big difference between debt and refusing to pay. If either party breaks the contract, then the rights would revert back to you. But you wouldn't be able to do silly, detrimental things like trying to withhold copyright and shit that's already in print and which has been distributed. "Oh, you've printed this? Well guess what, I don't like you anymore so I'm withdrawing my copyright." It's borderline blackmail.

It's one thing to sue them for breaching a contract and demanding to regain control of any future use of the material. It's another thing to be pissy because they're behind on paying you. And, to be honest, it's just fucking stupid to do it in an attempt to thwart them from making the money to pay you back.

But who a I kidding? Thinking things all the way through is a rare thing on an Internet forum. Because, you know, "transfer copyright without any promise of payment for ever and ever" is exactly what I said, implied, and clearly meant.

And yes, I understand that most of the things related to this topic revolve around the mismanagement of funds, too. But that has little to do with the point I'm trying to make above.

Knowing Patrick, he's more likely just trying help educate. There are a fair number of commonly mispelled/misused words on the internet. Copy Right (Which make sense, to a degree, since it's dealing with the Rights of text, which is also sometimes referred to as Copy). My own personal crusade is "Canon" vs "Cannon". I'm rarely trying to be snide when I point that out, experience has just taught me that in most cases, people don't realize there is a difference.

Well, that and trying to encourage people to use punctuation and capitalization if they want me to take them the least bit seriously. Thankfully, you and most of our users here on Dumpshock are pretty decent about that.

people talking like this using no periods or commas or capitalization drive me nuts theres no reason for it its just plain lazy its also damn tough to read and parse

Gah. It hurts just trying to type like that!

Bull

I can understand if the post is just horrid. Unable to be read or deciphered, or if it's annoying 'leet speak' or the like. I get it. But pausing in a thread dozens of pages long to address one poster's spelling isn't ever going to come across as nice. If it bothers you that bad, slip them a PM. Just click their name and go. Doing so openly and in a thread being read by dozens of people going pages each day is trying to embarrass them and mean. Just no call for it unless the person is unintelligible.

Or dozens of people have been making the same error over the course of a couple thousand replies to the various threads and yours just happens to be the one I was reading when it finally set me off, and it seemed to me easier to do it once and let everyone read it and still do nothing about it, or go through and find a couple dozen people and PM them individually.

As Bull said, all I was trying to do was correct a common error. You're not the only one who makes that error, and you're sure not going to be the last. I'll make posts like that again in the future. It's not at all personal. I don't know you, and have no reason to make any kind of personal statement against you.

I don't have to in the case of Vice and Midnight. They're already published and at the FLGS's. The things affecting them is nothing but payment.


Thank you, I couldn't find the list in this thread.

The question is, what situations are affecting them? Are there legalities complicating matters?

Jason H.