The book is ok, but if it gets published the same as it is in the PDF you might be better off waiting until the second printing. There are lots of little errors and some of the charts are missing entries.

There are also things like not telling you which skill Battle Rifles use. Technically they are Sporting Rifles with larger ammo capacity and burst fire (which is what a battle rifle is IRL also). In my game, I'm going to go with the Long Arms skill for them, until a change to the PDF comes out.

The addition of AP Flechette ammo adds an interesting twist to my game, since I actually have players who use shotguns for the spread effect of shot rounds on unarmored/lightly armored targets. Have to figure out how this will effect the varies spread settings on a shotgun, but most likely I'll go with reducing the stated ap modifier by 5 (Narrow +2DV, +0 AP/Medium +0DV, +2AP/Wide -2DV, +4AP). A full-auto shotgun, combined with a smartlink to change the choke on the fly, and ap shot would work wonders for clearing out mass fleshy targets. Think I'll cut AP Shot rounds price to half that of AP flechettes. This will make them far more expensive than normal shot rounds ($8 a round rather than $2 a round).

ah, 'kay, didn't get it.

Is it just me, or is it fairly amusing that we are still having issues with the fact that old-time SR developers didn't understand what the word "velocity" means?

just you ^^
it'd be funny if it wasn't sad . .
and what do you mean when you say old time sr developers?
have you looked at the names in the book? O.o

The folks working on current SR products are, at least partially, stuck working within the confines of prior product -- in this case, the use of "High Velocity" as a descriptor of a certain class of firearm. You either change the nomenclature, or keep working within it as best you can. In this instance, it looks like they decided to try and work within it as best they can.

*nods*
looks like it.

One thing that dorks me off about the "high velocity" battle rifle is it does not suffer from the drawback of every other "high velocity" weapon, which is lower base damage.

Does it get, by raw, any benefits of the HV stuff?
seeing how it does not have full auto firing mode?
or is the only mention of hv stuff in the weapon fluff and thus irrelevant?

That drawback is a relict from SR1/2 – any weapon retrofitted into a HV weapon did not suffered that problem since SR3.

Well, I gave it a read and I think this section sums up what I dislike quite well. Bear in mind that this is from the Game Information section, not some in-character description by a supersticious villager:

WORK BRINGS FREEDOM
Oswiecim was under a spiritual barrier for a number of years. Oswiecim was home to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the most well known of the Nazi party’s concentration camps. During the Holocaust, 1.1 million people died within its walls. This led it to become one of the most haunted places on the planet. Ghosts of all shapes and sizes dwelled within, frightening out or murdering all residents of Oswiecim. Because of the sheer magnitude of the haunting, a great number of other things found home there. For the inclined occult investigator, Auschwitz-Birkenau is a treasure trove. It’s also a remarkably dangerous trap. Earlier this year, an entrepreneur named Tetsuo Shuumatsu hired a cabal of sorcerers, charging them with the removal of the barrier. He’s an arms dealer, one who specializes in the weapons necessary to take down ghosts. With such an infestation of ghosts, only a silly buyer would hesitate to pay top dollar for his wares. His greed opened this treasure trove to the public, allowing those without a sense of self-preservation to have a unique opportunity to drudge for necromantic artifacts.
The town proper is effectively still a town, albeit a town inhabited by the angry and hungry dead.  They don’t take kindly to the living, but aren’t necessarily hostile unless provoked. Many are simply living out echoes of their past existences as harmless villagers.

Magic domes around towns. Looters who pry open The Forbidden Tomb™. Ghosts - not pissed or twisted spirits, but actual ghosts. Treasures which are guarded by the ghosts, because evil, haunted dungeons always contain evil, haunted artifacts. Fucking NECROMATIC artifacts. And the living dead.
While all of this would work fine in a generic horror setting, it has NOTHING to do with Shadowrun. The author obviously had no idea of shadowrun magic and how it deals with (un)death - which I can't blame the author for, probably the closest thing to SR he knew until a couple of months ago were the Manei Domini (cybered badass fraction from CBT). Yet you'd think there is an editor who actually reads what the freelancers submit and tells them "sorry, wrong universe"...

Also, this is Auschwitz, the symbol for something even Nazis think is so evil that they deny its existence. Using this subject in fiction requires a certain judicious touch, lest you want to look like going for the cheap shock value (bad style, but ultimately nothing serious), or alert the usual busybodies (really bad). So labeling a section about a potential job in Auschwitz "Arbeit macht Frei" is probably the dumbest section heading I've read in years. Including the guy who used full-page images as chapter headings and then auto-generated a TOC

So, does War! cover large/larger scale combat, any changes to the vehicle rules, or stuff related to war such as supply lines, propaganda, training etc?

I get that it has an adventure, a city description and some hardware and powers, just wondering if it covered any of the above.

Oh, and hi all.

It does have stuff about large scale combat, supply lines, propaganda, morale, etc.
It has new rules for vehicle combat, such as air combat, new rules for supressive fire, new gear, etc.
I didn't finish reading the book, but so far, I like it.
Also, 1.2 billions nuyen for a doomsday orbital plataform is, no pun intended, priceless.

That's it? really? 1.2 B? Given the megas undoubtedly bring in incomes in the hundreds of billions to trillions, that seems like you would end up having a doomsday arms race...

We can't allow there to be a deathsat gap!

OK, while I agree about Auschwitz needing to be treated with, at least, a modicum of respect, one thing we have to remember about the Shadowrun world. It's a progressive world.

I have been playing/running Shadowrun since '89, and I have just recently changed over to 4th. (stuck in curmudgeon mode about the drastic change). I like 4th now, though I wasn't always open to the thought of change. And allot of changes have been made since then, both in the world and magic, what was impossible to what is possible.

One thing comes to mind right off was back in 3rd with the addition of Astral Rifts, Shedim, etc. <del>I mean, for crying out loud, a Great Dragon's physical form crawled it's way out of an Astral Rift, show me THAT in the rules</del> . (even if it was his astral form going to reclaim a body, still, after how many eons?) Also, before the closest thing we had to zombies was the Corpse Cadaver, now we have possessing spirits that animate the dead. "Wait a minute, spirits can't do that!" . But in Shadowrun the world is advancing it's understanding of itself and the designers are getting more and more leeway to play with things. While it was not possible in past rules/world view, what's to say that with the level of mana progressing that things like this can't exist? The world is changing, and no-one really knows how far.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying I like the idea, or that it was inserted in the correct section (I would think it would have been in the NON-game info section myself). Assuming it was mis-sectioned, the ghosts could just be a new form of backgroundAlchera, strong enough to imprint weak spirits that wander into the area or from nearby metaplanes. Or a unique Mana warp or something.

That's how I always deal with the "in character posting"/shadowfile. The players can read all they want, but that doesn't make it truth.

I think it was misplaced in the wrong section myself.

<edit>
Added about Ghostwalker

Rechecked my facts on Ghostwalker - it was astral form. . Never ran Denver, so never had to deal.

If I recall correctly just its Astral Form passed throught the Rift, Ghostwalker picked its body somewhere along the way.
The amazing thing is that it didn't die after *Magic hours* away from the body.

Yeah, I was trying to edit my post when my Comlink hiccuped. I never really got into Denver (never really appealed to my players), but I agree, Magic in hours away from body, even considering it might be Dragon Magic, or something, he has been away from his body for how long? It's possible he was always around (re-awakened quietly.....OK, this is Ghostwalker, nevermind) and was on an astral quest and just "found his way through", but that sound just as unlikely.

That's all well and good, but wouldn't it be kind of nice if someone would tell the new writers about these thing? I don't know, maybe guy who accepts the piece for publication? Unless of course he doesn't understand the setting either.

This must be the shittiest SR release ever, including some really awful German stuff. THe rules heavily unbalance the game (SoftWeave), the book is badly written, the setting boring and not in the least taking into account that it is to cover a War, not a slightly deranged city somewhere in former Colombia, and then there's the tons of errors (hint: it's carnivorous, not carniverous, and the year is 2010, not 2011, and that's just one page) ... what the fuck.


I am starting to think someone pulled their leg with the German names. The Wasserträger sub (FYI, 'Wasserträger' is a derogative term for an intern or a low-level lickspittle) and the Glucke carrier ('Glucke' usually is a term for an overprotective, aging and usually overweight mother) are too hilarious to be the work of an American tapping his fingers into a dictionary at random (which is what the Jagdpferd and Vogelhund sounds like).

Agreed, that's total bullshit.

Oh yes. Apart from all the canon idiocy and general tastelessness, this comes close to violating the Volksverhetzungsgesetz. I sure hope Pegasus just ignores WAR and rather translates Seattle 2070. Even if it'd pale besides the splendid Berlin book.


Why can authors not be blamed for failing to do research? I can kind of see this for the Almanach, which was hamfisted and suffered from a very close deadline that had to be kept - but not here. Being a BT author is NO EXCUSE for not doing research.

I'm just jumping around it so far, and it's not too bad. The general material has my interest, though Bogota specific info does seem a little excessive and uninteresting. The new stuff doesn't seem immediately broken, though I can understand others concerns and will think more about some of them. I do like seeing actual Leadership rules. A couple things that seemed missing to me in terms of gear that bug me at the moment: 1) Rules for Thor shots are cool, but it made me immediately think of spy satellites - which would be possibly applicable for the very high end runner teams 2) Dearth of cyberware - at the very least a implant variant of the Mark 74 Smartlink, 3) Still no rules for actually mounting Arsenal's Launch Weapons, just lots of weapon mounts for aircraft which I assume are supposed to solve it (but totally gimp the fantastically expensive Eagle-C in the process).

Check out SoftWeave armour for something quite unbalancing.

http://www.zentralrat-der-luden.org

But thanks for proving my point: A lot of people get easily worked up when it comes to Auschwitz and the Holocaust in general. And no matter how justified you personally believe this sentiment to be, triggering it simply is a bad idea if you want to do business. Unless your business is something like the Chappelle Show, of course.


If you buy the wrong ingredients for a cake, who is to blame for the outcome? The seller of the ingredients, or the one who chose a buy iron filings instead of flour?



And to finally say something positive about the book: I like the gear section. Yes, the softweave armour and high-rating matrix gear sound like the "erratra via superior gear" thing first done with reflex triggers (or so I've been told, never played 1st Ed.), but IMO both is sensible "errata gear". And I'm going to abuse MRSI + drone rounds
Maybe Pegasus will bundle this plus the two cash gear books in the pipeline in one convenient product and call it "Arsenal 2073".

I am not saying I am offended by it (it is tasteless and shows just how little the BT authors care about what they write about, or just how incompetent they are, but I can deal with that). I am saying our rather sensitive laws might be triggered (it was triggered by a crossed out swastika symbol that said "STOP NAZIS" after all). And since Pegasus is a publishing company, that could easily end them up in deep shit.


If a chef orders a cake baked, and the kichen boy burns it and fills it with nails instead of raisin cream, is this the chef's fault? Partly, sure, because he could have checked up on kitchen boy, but you cannot say the boy shouldn't know the basics of cake baking, working in a kitchen after all. The idea of distributing work is not to make those who do the work not liable for their own mistakes. While the Line Dev SHOULD have stopped this, the writer never should have WRITTEN it in the first place.


I agree with the Matrix gear (been playing with this as a house rule for quite some time now myself). I disagree with SoftWeave, which ENHANCES the indestructo-troll problems.


And dump the dull to moronic fluff in War. Probably the best course of action.

reflex trigger and maxpower ammo, iirc (given the references in SR2 about them being folded into the basic stats).

1st Edition IPE grenades also, to deal with the problems hand grenades did litle actual damage.

Agreed. And if I agree with Hermit, that's definitve proof something is not quite right

And all the legal implications and moral outrage aside, I think it's simply a poor job to waste the potential of this setting for some cheap shock effects. And that IS the writer's fault


If the chef hired a carpenter as kitchen boy? Yes


If you abuse the hell out of armor rules, a character can already become invincible to bullets. With SoftWeave it can become more bulletproof than bulletproof...no biggie
But being able to equip Joe Average with a ballistic vest + helmet is great.

What am I missing about the armor rules that SoftWeave radically changes? If Tailoring for Body x 3 is allowed, then high body characters should run out of compatible armor before the SoftWeave can even kick in. If Tailoring is not allowed, this is just a less efficient alternative that gets the same issue. As long as you can't harden personal armor, nothing makes you genuinely bullet proof when the full auto starts up.

My question is, is anything broken as presented when compared not only to the RAW of previous books but the new rules in W! that modify the old RAW?

Soooo....Do I buy this book yet? Not seeing a lot of great comments about it so far...

The software that allows you to place several arrows/grenades on one target and add their damage cumulative?

It sounds more like what's being described is choosing to use a grocer who is obviously stocking iron filings in the bin marked "flour". I'm assuming they told the writer that this was for Shadowrun material rather than just generically describing the setting and what they wanted.

~J

Just noticed that. Didn't know that the good ol' isn't used any longer.

Except that the tank Troll is allready wearing a max amount of armor you can get.

Agree (on both accounts ).


That's true. It remains ridiculous that you need special armor for this, but there you go.


That's what I do, too. He just didn't make any effort AND cracked a cheap, frat boy style kind of fart joke. Is there ANY lectoring happening?

Also, do the writers still stop by here or have they withdrawn to the new and improved 'official' forums to sulk?


We should be happy they didn't write ComStarCredits (or whatever the currency in BT is called these days).


Not if you abuse the hell out of Gel Packs and all this +x/+y stuff.

Made my day!

There are a few of us who still check in (though I had nothing to do with War!)...but, to be frank, I often wonder why I bother, and I'm certainly not surprised more of them don't swing by.

You see, I wonder why I bothered to buy War. I hope you don'T expect praise for such a product. I really wonder if this is what we can expect from you guys now.

Maybe you should consider putting more work into quality and less effort into sulking and complaining that Bobby Said Evil Things. And maybe look for writers who know Shadowrun from D20 Modern. Which the current crop of BattleTech dropouts obviously don't.

I understand you're ranting a bit to make yourself feel better, but do me a favor to take a second to calm down instead of just lashing out blindly. I'm not a developer, I'm not in charge of hiring and firing other writers, and I just said quite clearly that I didn't write anything for War!, so I'm not sure why you're so damned eager to pee in my general direction, okay? I will gladly let you know exactly what I've written of upcoming sourcebooks when they hit shelves, just like I'll gladly point you towards any of my posts or fiction pieces right here on DS, if you've got any more questions about me mistaking SR for any other game. In fact, I'll even take the time to highlight appropriately my part in any leaked conversations you've read, so you can see how much "sulking" and "complaining" I'm doing.

Save your hostility for the ones you're mad at, buddy.

All I did was take a second to answer your question, and let you know that a few of us old timers -- guys like me and Bull, who were Dumpshockers, God bless us, before we were involved in the game in any official capacity -- still come here from time to time. If the above response is what someone can expect when they take the time to answer a question from you...do you really wonder why less of us are around?

It's got a few highlights but for once the critics aren't blowing things too out of proportion it's got a few glaring stinkers in it.

Depends on your level of fandom and how willing you are to overlook a few things or be prepared to touch them up yourself. I got no problem house ruling/bending what needs it.

To be honest, did you read back your initial response? The 'I wonder why I even bother' schtick only serves to make things worse.

Is your point about the software or how it is implemented? Software very similar to this is in use today for missiles and other barrage type attacks. How it is implemented falls under the new rules for large dice pools does it not? Does the description for the software and the rules for large dice pools conflict?

Why would that software interact in any way with the high dicepool rules?

Yeah, like any supplement, for any role playing game since the 3 little brown books you're going to have to tweak stuff to make it work the way you want it to. Is War one of their finest pieces? No, probably not. Does it suck? Not at all.

1) Bitching about the fluff: Yes there are some oddities in it. Quite frankly who gives a damn. Shadowrun has a massive, metaplot and yes, CGL has had to hire some new writers who aren't necessarily as familiar with said metaplot as some of the previous ones. Auschwitz is probably the worst of the lot, but as others have pointed out there have been a ton of incidences in the past where the "rules" have been broken for the sake of plot. Besides, it bloody well makes sense that Auschwitz would have some insane stuff going on in the astral around it.

2) Bitching about rules: Is there some stuff that can be broken? Sure there is. There always has been. Pornomancers, Agent Smith armies, Bloodzilla, Mr. Lucky are all insanely broken things that have been around since the core rulebook was released. HP ammo isn't even that bad. Hell they're not even as bad as EX-Explosive and that's been sitting on the books since SR3. Christ if you've been GMing Shadowrun this long and never had a "Look guys I know you can break this, but do you want to?" conversation with your players then either you have the best players in the world who would never in their life think of powergaming, or you've already been running a campaign filled with insane one trick ponies anyhow. Either way, War isn't going to make that any worse.

So you point is that it isn't batshit crazy to synchronize arrows fired by bows for double damage because you don't have the book?

Mobility Upgrade is obsolete.

I was thinking of its application for/with gernades. The software allows you to drop several gernades in one location, correct? The large dice pool rules and/or the gernade rules address the damage caused by multiple gernades and figuring out the damage. Earlier in this thread someone posted that such attacks take the DV of one gernade and then halves the others before adding them after calculating the decrease in their DV from distance.

I have no idea about the applicatiion of this software with arrows though.

Hey, if I am wrong no biggie just curious.

Edit: I pulled up my copy and reread the description and it does conflict with the rules I am talking about. So, yes it is in need of some work.

I'm pretty sure those six words from me aren't to blame for the attitude he's showing, thanks. I'm sorry if I let a little snark slip into my response, but it's not like his initial question was exactly open and friendly, either.

Reread this thread and the general attitude being shown in it, look at the vitriol even non-War writers are getting here, and ask yourself if you wouldn't wonder why you bothered, too, okay? It's only natural for the official crew to hang out at the official forum (wouldn't it look pretty silly if DS got all the developer posts, and NOT the official forum? And we've all only got so much time a day to hang out on the internet, so it makes sense for that time to be dedicated primarily to the forum we're expected at)...but when the attitude is like the attitude's been here on DS of late, it makes even more sense to avoid the place and hang out at the official SR joint, instead, doesn't it?

I'm not defending War. I don't even have a copy of it myself, yet, because money's tight around the holidays and it's gonna have to wait 'till payday. It's clear some folks aren't happy with it...but if some folks here want the writers to hang out here again, maybe they could offer up some feedback that doesn't end with "LOLOL Battletech rejects derp derp derp." There's some helpful stuff in this thread, sure, but the signal:noise ratio is getting all out of wack with a few people.

Criticism is one thing, and I know -- once any of my stuff hits shelves -- I, at least, welcome it. I've never been shy about the stuff I wrote for Privateer Press, or Comfy Chair, or anyone else, and I'm going to welcome comments on my Shadowrun work, just as much. But when those comments consist of calling people scabs, rejects, and idiots, don't be surprised when people don't want to read it any more.

If the alternative to buying a book is staring at the wall, like for long flights, that might be worth considering. (In fact, I went with some Jason Bourne. It only beat the wall slightly)
For an RPG supplement which is supposed to stimulate positive creativity in GMs and immersion for Players? No buy.

Auschwitz served as an example for highlevel BGC and Mana Warps for some time. Still, it is a memorial from long before the awakening. It doesn't suddenly become Haunted House with Loot. And while "rules" are one thing, respecting the setting is another.

There's a mental disconnect here.

Which is why the official forum was created in the first place, while the FAQ happily answers "Why are there no Catalyst-sponsored Shadowrun forums?" with "Because the fine folks running Dumpshock have been maintaining those forums for many years, and we see no need to duplicate their efforts."

And the attitude on DS hasn't changed that much lately – if at all, there's probably less flaming than before.