All weapon damage. Pistols are not nearly just as deadly as short barreled assault rifles nor almost as deadly as light machine guns. Assault rifles are not as deadly as medium machine guns nor almost as deadly as heavy machine guns.

I'm fairly amused by this 'somewhat negative' review.

Well, this will be ignored because it's Frank. Never mind how painfully spot on he is this time.


The theory of the Full Stop is lost on you, it seems (speaking of pots and kettles, you might want to look up what punctuation means). Also, you obviously do not understand the difference between a Forum post and a print/pdf product that you have to pay to read. If I charged you money for reading my posts, you'd have a right to complain. As is, you don't.

As for excessive complaints, those have brought down dictatorships. Mindless yahooing, however, historically only prolonged fuck-ups.

Guys, I think we can agree that, as much as people's punctuation/spelling/grammar may suck in a forum post, when you get around to the point where you're writing a book, paying to have it published, and hoping other folks might buy it and help you recoup your costs, it wouldn't hurt to run a spell-checker over the whole thing and maybe have a guy who edits books for a living take a look at it first. And hopefully reduce the amount of noise posts taking shots at each other's spelling.

Short history lesson:

Auschwitz was abandoned by it's SS guard unit, they forced all those left who could walk on so-called "death marches" and left those who couldn't walk there to die. The camps were then reached by the soviet 322nd Infantry Division. The soviets then cared for those they found, but a lot of the people died in the following days and month despite those efforts.

Auschwitz is in todays Poland, US troops didn't even reach Berlin.

tell me you are kidding . . please . .

HE did. It's very sad you even have to mark this, though.

Can't say. But you can see the three pieces I did here:
http://raben-aas.deviantart.com/gallery/

The art easily is the best part of the book. Nothing is really sub-par, like it was in Ghost cartels or the dreadfully pictured Companion (all refering to the American books, the German and French productions fixed most of this).

The French books have the same pictures as the American books. They just have new pictures for the exclusive content.

Oh. Pity. I only own SOX French Edition and SR France (hardcopy) so far. Thought I read that they also replaced interior artwork. C'est mal. Ils ont des meilleurs artistes que ceux qui ont produirent cet ... déchent.

I apologise for my dreadful French.

To quote one of the big thinkers of the last century:
"It is wrong to be french!"

Pity. They have much better artists than those who produced that crap. (at least that's what it's supposed to mean).

Thinker, maybe. Drinker, absolutly. Politics needs less teatotalers anyway. Look where they got us.

Don't know about you, but Prohibition was pretty good for quite a number of families that I know.

Of course, I know people in Southern Ontario.

Canadian Whiskey makers made a /killing/ during Prohibition

Yep.

Customs Agent To Guy In Rowboat Full of Whiskey: "Where are you headed with that? You know it's illegal in the US."

Rumrunner: "Heading to England."

Customs Agent To Guy In Rowboat Full of Whiskey: "Fair enough, that's legal. See you tonight."

He went to great pains to be objective on the review as well - and I do agree with the parts of it that apply to what I've read. I found myself flipping past all the Bogota parts because I lost interest in it. The first chapter did seem rather...detached from the war at hand.

second part of franks review is out by the way.

Does it actually not have a map?

That's how I felt too. I was looking for info on the war because I had hoped to integrate them into my campaign. Tough luck. No info on the war, just more and more crap about Bogota, people who vaguely are tied into Bogota, mostly, or people who probably are supposed to be subtly introduced to reappear in later modules (like Peter Hunt, whose chapter also is TOTALLY at odds with what they established about Yucatàn in the Almanac). The authors then gave their nothing to drop them into the book so they stick out like a third foot and have everyone wondering about what the hell this is supposed to add to the book.

And really, what Do we know about the War? I found a map of 2070s South America, I'd even be willing to compuile my own map that WAR denied me. Just, what DO we know? Aztlan somehow is advancing into Amazonia, "on the road to Manaus (what road?), but being pushed back and the frontline is in Bogota, which is in Aztlan.

EH.

Miss anything? Could anyone help me out?


No, it does not. Really. It has no map. None of Bogota, to give you some sort of orientation about the city (the book is much less about WAR than it is the Bogota sourcebook), none of the war so far, not even one detailing the preset situation (they apparently assume you own the Almanac).

I was looking forward to War!

Info on the Amazonian?Aztlan War, Info about Desert Wars®, Information about Israel's on going fun in the middle east.

Mercenary units, Military Grade equipment, information about Tactical Hacking, Drone combat.

Sigh.. it sounds like between all the Military guys on Dumpshock and the rest of us we could write a better War Supplement than CGL did.

Maybe we should.

That is amazingly stupid. Like.. what the hell? I can see bad editing or whatever, but surely 'okay, we're describing a geographical area, and a war that is fought over land, so lets start with a map' is making a book about anything 101.

Yes. I would've thougth so too. Hell, I DID so, back in my itty teens when I designed a couple world maps for never realised fantasy worlds. It all starts with a map, usually. But not War. War starts with the idea that Amazonia, who loves trees and hates people, goes to war about it's neighbor planting people-eating trees.

Also read that. I've just started getting into the new swag.

I was interested to see Battle Rifles added, which do not say they use the Automatics skill, but as they are automatic rifles - that's the skill they use. It wasn't a terrible leap of logic, but one not versed in the lingo could see how that's confusing.

The bits about Sangre del Diablo are both intruiging and plain scary. These things are supposed to be rare and in the deep Amazon, a vile foe for talisleggers looking for its benign counterpart and finding only horror. I can get behind that. There's a sweet Indiana Jones-style adventure there. Now it sounds as if about a fourth of Bogota has been seeded with these trees and socked full of Miracle-Gro. To me, it shifts people away from the war itself - who's going to want to run a game in this setting?

That is, I suppose, the largest issue I'm having with this book. It's clearly meant to be an adventure hook for a mercenary company theme, though the information on Bogota would make it a Latin American Barrens where one goes from hip club to favela to mansions in as many blocks. It's meant to be the hook, but it doesn't know that. It's not sure what it wants to be.

To be honest, I think this book needs to be pulled and repurposed. I believe the creative team needs to sit down and ask themselves "what does this book want to be?" It has a wealth of information on Bogota that could've gone into 6WA or a revised Shadows of Latin America, gear that should probably be looked at for game balance issues, and a fresh look at the new rules for game balance issues.

If the book is to be titled War!, then let us sit and make this book about War. Right now, it doesn't seem like it is.

So, here's what I know:

This war has been simmering between the Azzies and the Zonies for a while. Caracas and Venezuela was meant to be a buffer between the two, with Bogota as some sort of 'border city' where everyone could play at being nice while hiding their knives behind their backs.

The flashpoint, it seems, was when the Azzies caught a Zonie black ops team in one of their facilities. I'll have to go back and verify exactly what happened, but the 'gardening' reasoning that Frank offered will work for now. Not 72 hours after the Azzies declared war, the troops started rolling in with full logicstical and administrative support. This suggests it had been in the works for a lot longer. The Azzie teocallis were used in a massive linked blood ritual that suppressed the nature spirits (and nature itself) in the Amazon at the same time, depriving the Zonies of their usual magical backup. However, this would not last.

Aztlan made several gains into Colombia and Amazonian territory, opening the city of Bogota up to the other megacorps. Notables include Horizon, Ares, and S-K. As far as I can tell from here, both armies are in a stalemate.

Looking at this overview, there's some serious Idiot Ball handling going on here. Heavy-ass battle rifles in close-quarters combat? Stick with carbines and subs, they're lighter and you want rate of fire over stopping power(for the most part). Seeding the area with Sangre del Diablo? It's Awakened WMD, not the move you make if you want to hold the area. Bogota's a city, with people, and people have needs. You're killing your market share - most literally.

AZT seemed to be doing all right taking over Bogota by economic means. They're working on the same process in the PCC - so why did they decide to throw a bunch of mans and blood spirits at the jungle? Are the resources in the Amazon that good that it warrants spending billions in mans and equipment to level it?

Finally: Editing, editing, editing. I will yell at a newspaper for it, and I will shout until my voice is hoarse (and then start typing) for sourcebooks. Editing is the luxury trim, the coat of paint, the polish, and the shining 20-inch rims of publishing. You can build the greatest, most dependable motor this world has ever seen, but people aren't going to buy it if you try to wrap it with a Pinto frame.

I understand budgets are tight and deadlines must be met, but the quality of product is suffering because of it. Reallocate if you have to. Push back a release date if you have to. Please, for all the love that is holy, do not skimp on the editing process or the customer is going to think the production staff isn't taking this seriously. It must be done right.

IMR most likely can't afford to do that and it looks like nobody responsible does even give a damn. Gamers will still buy it because of the ZOMGWTFBBQ-gear.

Expect the book to hit the printers with autocorrection fixes of typos at most. And if there is a second printing that corrects some things, don't expect an errata – like with Augmentation. (Skimmed through the second printing of Augmentation today at my FLGS, with some fixes not present in the current PDF… of course, those were only partial fixes.)

It's sad.
I've been contemplating doing a Merc game. I was looking forward to War to give me some good jump off points. But from everything I've read this is one of the worse supplements put out for Shadowrun ever. Information about the Military of the World is sorely missed in Shadowrun. Shadowrunners routinely go up against Military and yet we have no information on them.

A book I was going to guarantee buying, has now moved to the, I might just ban it from my games, pile.

Atzlan's seeding of the Sangre del Diablo occured when they where still thinking of heading north to deal with the Denver issue. They did not want to get caught in a two front war because they thought Amazonia was gearing up to come north so they seeded the areas around Bogata with the Sangre del Diablo, counting on the enhanced magical growth to create a biological threat to keep Amazonia out of the region. I do think Atzlan got more then they planned for though.

How is W! going to tie into the MilSpec source book next year? I would hope that some of the things missing in W! may be added to it even though is sounds like it is going to be a gear book.

If you are worried about a highly magical, nature aligned country coming after you. Is your first thought for a line of defense a Highly magical Plant?

Is there any chance that some of this reviews/feedback/critique will find its way into the public and official SR4 forum?

SYL

Do you honestly think that would make any difference whatsoever?

Point Taken Grinder...
It is just annoying that he bashes everyone else for it, and yet he is guilty of the exact same thing...
Apologies...

actually he's only bashed CGL for it in Printed Materials that they are 'selling' as official Shadowrun material.

Unsure ... perhaps.

But to be honest, I just wonder what the reactoin of JH and the rest of the crew would be.

SYL

If it didn't, then why are we complaining - period?

If it is as Critias said and the writers lurk on the official boards, then it would do well post a critique there. I'd personally go a step further and post a petition to save the editing process. Perhaps I shall do just that.

Why the hell did they Stat Thor shots?
Thor Shots should have been. Auto hit, Auto Dead GM plot device. Not, let me roll 100 to hit dice, soak 70DV

Because it makes a difference TO US . . and fuck everything else!

That and nuclear weapons. Neither should have been statted.

You do not stat God, as once you do he ceases to be God.

Thread would be deleted, because it is "undermining his authority as line developer"

But it is like I had imagined, with a Line Developer like this, SR will hit rock bottom in a couple of releases and after that the system is dead.

cya
Tycho

Name me 1 product that CGL has put out that was not just a cut/paste job of an older product with just a few rules editings, usually in a bewildering new direction of weird.

That I would pay to see. Can I write some of the fluff? (Admittedly I'm a civvie puke, but, hell, I can fake being an Ad Exec trying to sell weapon systems and such!)

Now that you mention it . .

Yeah, Frank for the crunch and Bobby for the fluff would be a winning combination with the rest of you folks ^^

Horizon Entertainment Industries brings you!

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This season has been brought to you by Ares Armaments! Saeder-Krupp Military Industries! And Better Living Through Matrix! A wholly owned subsidiary of Neo-Net.

This year is exciting for us. We've got a great line up.

The Aztechnology Wombats are back! And a popular favorite to make it to the final rounds.
Renraku is fielding a whole new team, the Dynasty Warriors™ who show great promise for a rookie team!

This message brought to you by Nerps!

Nerps! For Desert Wars!

...

Oh, and GO BLACK DEVILS!

Naturally. What could possibly go wrong?

"Those treehuggers never would expect that!"

I'm not even convinced going with a fine comb through the PDF and plastering it with markups & annotations would.

Closure.

Lies. We aren't coming to terms with a thing, just getting worked up in a lather.

Not just any magical plant but a VERY ANGRY highly magical plant. That's a whole other ballgame.

Thanks, that's a reasonable starter for my map project.


If you'Re up to it, certainly. I'd provide maps and some more fluff. Anyone else taking?


Given the attitude over errata they display, I actually DO think they aren't taking it seriously.


Amazon, Battleshop ect. have review sections. I suggest people start there.


Bans, I suppose. Reviews that are not 'awesome' from Battleshop and DriveThru might disappear. Hiowever, there's several RPG sites and independent sellers of product, and many have preview pages for the upcoming print. Hardy cannot be everywhere.


The real fun part being they waste words and space on a sidebar saying stating nukes makes no sense (p. 159), which then goes on and stats them anyway.


Nah, it's still phase 2. Trying to write up alt.WAR! is Negotiating.

Just to poke my head in again, it's worth pointing out, I think, that there is a War! thread over on the official SR4 forums, and at least one person (likely a person from, or at least familiar with, this thread, given some of their complaints) is being plenty critical. No one's getting banned, nothing's getting deleted, etc, etc.

If you're going to hate the official forums, at least hate them for a reason. Don't make up bans and deletions and talk about them like they're actually happening, huh?

As long as criticism stays constructive rather than just blatant trolling, I'm sure anyone with something to say about War! is welcome. Whether it happens here or there, though, trust me, you guys. Writers are aware of what's being said, and there's plenty of active listening going on.